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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Guess this is why you dont rent your account to a friend while your out of town.
The list is looking better than ever, so kudos there.
I want to Nominate Mega-Ampharos for B.
I think this sheep performs superbly in the current meta, but Id be fine if it didnt.
This thing hits super hard, even when uninvested, meaning it can focus ev's into becoming a great mixed tank.
It can also run several diffrent set's, like resttalk, heal bell, or even agility sweeping.
Im just bringing it up, it could go either way really.
Not going to start a fight after whaat my doppelganger did.
The list is looking better than ever, so kudos there.
I want to Nominate Mega-Ampharos for B.
I think this sheep performs superbly in the current meta, but Id be fine if it didnt.
This thing hits super hard, even when uninvested, meaning it can focus ev's into becoming a great mixed tank.
It can also run several diffrent set's, like resttalk, heal bell, or even agility sweeping.
Im just bringing it up, it could go either way really.
Not going to start a fight after whaat my doppelganger did.
Bisharp:
-It's not really a problem for defensive rotom-w since with 128 spe EV you always outspeed and burn. Then:
252+ Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Rotom-W: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Into:
252+ Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Rotom-W: 70-82 (23 - 26.9%) -- 46.5% chance to 4HKO
-Talonflame:
This must be a mistake since it's obvious.
-Gengar:
I don't get it. He may sometimes carry thunderbolt but ghost is stab is literally the most spammable move this gen.
-Kyu-b:
You'll get even more raped by terravolt earth power.
-Mamoswine:
Rotom-w is better since all Mamos use thick fat.
-Mega pinsir:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Rotom-H: 188-222 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
With a bit of prior damage, it can Ohko rotom-H. So meh I'm not 100% convinced (it can't invest more in def or it will lose to rock tomb breloom and get Ohkoed by +2 bisharp).
Rotom formes are used defensively and are outclassed offensively. An offensive set is not a very good idea.
Likewise a stealth rock weak choiced mon and even more when it's gonna spam volt-switch/u-turn is a bad idea. What's even worse, overheat forces rotom-h to switch even move often.
Small note a lot of mamo's like oblivious so you can't taunt their stealth rocks.
Burn immunity's always nice and some gengars have tbolt, energy ball, or dazzling gleam, all of which rotom-h resists and rotom-w is neutral to (or weak to in energy ball's case)
People always forget that Freeze-Dry Mamoswine is a legitimate niche to lure in Gyarados and Rotom-W, two Pokemon that would otherwise be counters. It has this because:
- 4 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 140-166 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 4 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 302-359 (91.2 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This list is pretty misleading since Rotom-W can handle most of the pokemon on Rotom-H's list but not the other way around.
Mawile: Rotom-W outspeeds and burns (it can switch in to anything but Play Rough althout I dont think Play Rough is a. OHKO)
Bisharp: Rotom-W outspeeds and burns
M-Pinsir: resists its attacks and can burn or volt switch
Talonflame: resists it attacks and has hydro pump or volt switch
Kyu-B: both equally suck and get roasted by teravolt earth power
Mamoswine: both do the same
Skarmory: both will volt switch
And Rotom-H really cant do much to any of the pokemon on Rotom-W's list...
Rotom-H has advantages for most of those Pokemon.
Mawile: Rotom-H can counter, Rotom-W can only check.
Bisharp: No real difference here, though Rotom-H can OHKO with Overheat which is helpful against a +2 Bisharp.
M-Pinsir: Rotom-H can OHKO with Overheat. Rotom-W can check a +2 Mega Pinsir with wisp, but it will die and you'll still be facing a +0 Mega Pinsir.
Talonflame: Rotom-H takes less damage from U-turn
Kyu-B: Like you said, they both suck, so who cares?
Mamoswine: Rotom-W gets 2HKO'ed by LO Freeze Dry, Rotom-H dgaf about Freeze Dry.
Skarmory: Like you said, both perform equally.
I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand that Rotom-H is not outclassed by Rotom-W. They are supposed to deal with different threats.
Rotom-W already hard counters all M-Mawile sets since it isn't OHKO'd by anything after SR and can always break the subs with Hydro Pump (and I think Volt Switch?). Rotom-H can't deal with Sub sets unless it run Will-O due to the Overheat drop.
Rotom-H can break the subs even at -6, and it can also 2HKO Mawile at -2 after breaking one sub, just like Rotom-W (and with better accuracy too).
-6 0 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 78-92 (25.6 - 30.2%)
And it has Play Rough resistance, which means it can switch into Mawile many more times than Rotom-W even if Rocks are up.
Not to mention that M-Mawile runs only 124 HP (or 132 iirc), so it is even stronger than this calc.
Uh.. what? Not to digress or anything, but Rotom-W checks Mawile at best, it's far from a hard counter.
(Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(I can assume +2 because Rotom switched in as Mawile set up after forcing out a physical attacker, Balloon Excadrill or something. Minimum damage rolls give 62,8 + 37,1 (attacks) + 12,5 (SR) - 2*6,25 (lefties) = 99,9 => neglegible chance to survive)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(I can assume +2 because Rotom switched in as Mawile set up after forcing out a physical attacker, Balloon Excadrill or something. Minimum damage rolls give 62,8 + 37,1 (attacks) + 12,5 (SR) - 2*6,25 (lefties) = 99,9 => neglegible chance to survive)
Rotom-W can switch in and burn Mawile, then it needs to get the hell out (not even via Volt Switch) because you can't attack it, even burned Sucker Punch will then KO after SR, even assuming Lefties and max physical bulk.
As for Sub Mawile:
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 129-153 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 124 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 129-153 (47.4 - 56.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO (pick your amount of HP EVs)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 96-113 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 124 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 129-153 (47.4 - 56.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO (pick your amount of HP EVs)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 96-113 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So Mawile switches in, Subs, and uses Play Rough as Rotom breaks the Sub. Then Rotom can either burn it and die from two consecutive burned Play Roughs (burn damage + pump doesn't kill, even after making the sub), or attack and just die from Play Rough right away.
Rotom-W doesn't counter Mawile, it can severely damage the Sub variant or reset the Swords Dance variant's boost, but if it doesn't switch out, it will die in the process (I'm assuming adequate prediction by the Mawile player, but that's what we should be when determining if something's a counter. The burned sub variant will die really soon afterwards I guess, but Rotom had to be sacrificed and die earlier). Rotom-H is a lot better in that regard, at least it resists both Mawile's STABs.
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My bad, I should have worded my post better.
Rotom-W can consistently burn Mega Mawile and fits onto teams much more easily than Rotom-H. It still dies horribly, but at least it gets the job done.
Rotom-H has a decent chance of getting OHKO'd after SR and 1 turn of Leftovers recovery from Mega Mawile's Focus Punch
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-H: 218-257 (71.9 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
A -2 Overheat only does about ~60% tops, while Focus Punch + Play Rough (which does about 34% to Rotom-H) will definitely 2HKO.
EDIT: I used the wrong Mega Mawile sperad, and Overheat actually does 66% max.
Rotom-W can consistently burn Mega Mawile and fits onto teams much more easily than Rotom-H. It still dies horribly, but at least it gets the job done.
Rotom-H has a decent chance of getting OHKO'd after SR and 1 turn of Leftovers recovery from Mega Mawile's Focus Punch
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-H: 218-257 (71.9 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
A -2 Overheat only does about ~60% tops, while Focus Punch + Play Rough (which does about 34% to Rotom-H) will definitely 2HKO.
EDIT: I used the wrong Mega Mawile sperad, and Overheat actually does 66% max.
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Still beats rotom-w, who still does less damage with Hydro Pump than -2 Over heat.
Rotom-H comes in twice on Mega Mawile's Play Rough after SR if you get good rolls... that's not really a good counter. Bisharp OHKO's both at +2 with Knock Off because it outspeeds. If you speedcreep that much (if you can call 128 EV's a speedcreep) you're much less bulky. Rotom-W doesn't die to +2 Return and a burned Return to follow up according to my calcs... it can Pain Split and finish the job with Hydro Pump or Volt Switch. Rotom-H takes more from U-turn + SR than Rotom-W, no point there. No point for Kyurem-B, I guess if Mamoswine does run Freeze-Dry you have a point... but most run Icicle Spear iirc. And no point for Skarm. Pretty much Rotom-H is outclassed, mainly because of the SR weakness.
The point is that it's hard to justify Rotom-H over Rotom-W when they both do the same thing but with Rotom-W doing more (and usually better, but not necessarily in the case of Mega Mawile) due to the lack of exploitable weaknesses.
Let me try and clear up the list of pokemon I mentioned earlier. I didn't meant that they can't handle pokemon on each others' lists, and I didn't mean they were the only pokemon they could handle. I just meant that they do the job better than the other forme. I'm certainly not trying to be misleading, so here's a more in-depth look at Rotom-H's list.
Thundurus: Easier to switch in since STAB is resisted.
Aegislash: Gets wrecked by overheat
Mawile: Resists fairy, and can OHKO with Overheat
Bisharp: OHKO with Overheat
M-Pinsir: Resists Bug, and can OHKO with Overheat on defensive sets (Voltswitch/Tbolt does not KO)
M-Scizor: Resist Stabs and can OHKO
Talonflame: You avoid the burn and take less from chip damage from U-turn
M-Venu: Resist grass, can actually dent it with Overheat.
Char-Y: Resist grass, STAB is strengthened not weakened.
Ferro: Overheat always OHKO's
Gengar: Resist Electric, Grass and Fairy (it's coverage moves)
Breloom: Can OHKO with Overheat and resist Grass.
Kyu-B: Kyu-B cannot switch into Rotom-H and get a free sub. You can also switch into Fusion Bolt if necessary.
Mamoswine: Freeze dry is a thing.
Skarm: You can actually KO it with Overheat. Against Volt switch/Hydro pump it can just stay in and roost.
Thundurus: Easier to switch in since STAB is resisted.
Aegislash: Gets wrecked by overheat
Mawile: Resists fairy, and can OHKO with Overheat
Bisharp: OHKO with Overheat
M-Pinsir: Resists Bug, and can OHKO with Overheat on defensive sets (Voltswitch/Tbolt does not KO)
M-Scizor: Resist Stabs and can OHKO
Talonflame: You avoid the burn and take less from chip damage from U-turn
M-Venu: Resist grass, can actually dent it with Overheat.
Char-Y: Resist grass, STAB is strengthened not weakened.
Ferro: Overheat always OHKO's
Gengar: Resist Electric, Grass and Fairy (it's coverage moves)
Breloom: Can OHKO with Overheat and resist Grass.
Kyu-B: Kyu-B cannot switch into Rotom-H and get a free sub. You can also switch into Fusion Bolt if necessary.
Mamoswine: Freeze dry is a thing.
Skarm: You can actually KO it with Overheat. Against Volt switch/Hydro pump it can just stay in and roost.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Idrc where Rotom-H goes, but it's worth noting that, on top of checking most of the things that rotom-w does (ie talonflame, pinsir, etc.), it is a MUCH better switchin to the likes of Char-Y. It also does handle mawile significantly better. Aegislash too. It can also deal with stuff like megasaur much more easily. It is a great check to thundurus and other electric types because it resists.
Given that Mawile and Thundurus are two of the bset pokes in ou, with Char-y not too too far behind, Rotom-H moving up to B- wouldn't be the craziest thing ever.
Given that Mawile and Thundurus are two of the bset pokes in ou, with Char-y not too too far behind, Rotom-H moving up to B- wouldn't be the craziest thing ever.
I fully agree with Rotom-H moving up some. It's tough talking about the appliances without comparing them to Rotom-W, but Rotom-H certainly has a lot going for it, such as having more resistances, a more powerful STAB attack in Overheat, a burn immunity, and being a more reliable answer to Mega Mawile, Aegislash, and Thundurus, which is something worth bragging about.
Yeah, I can see Rotom-H pulling off B- EZ, it's typing, while a bit inferior to rotom-W at times, actually has a pretty great fairy resistance in there, and since it's washing brother is way more popular, people are less likely to carry a Rotom-H counter.
I SUPPORTBig Booties Rotom-H for B-
I SUPPORT
They aren't very good arguments. The guy was saying Aegi is a counter to Torn-T, when AV Torn-T is one of the best switch ins to Aegi out there. Even if AV Torn can't get the kill, he goes for the knock off, getting rid of Aegi's leftovers (and his longevity) and recovers lost health when he switches out. The mentor who commented (Jukain) argued against his offensive presence, which again, doesn't matter when Torn lives forever and gets rid of everyone's item.
You need to think of Torn from a stall/offensive perspective to see my side. If you looked at mega Venusaur and said B- because it sucks at offense, you would technically be right -- but he's not B- because he's much better defensively. That's what I'm trying to say with Torn.
Yeah I get where you are coming from, but I personally think its longevity is a bit overrated at times (Personally I don't think M-Venusaur sucks at offense but I digress). Granted yeah its longevity is going to last much longer against things like stall teams since they have less of a power output, but that's not always a sure thing against against more offensive teams. It's not like in UU where Torn-T was for the most part considered broken due to its mixed traits and how it compared to the rest of the meta. Yeah it's a good mon but its flaws are just more apparent in OU I think, and Idk about anyone else but I don't really think it has enough quality traits to be amongst the A- mons or A in general at this point in time.
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