CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 1 - Closed Concept Assessment

[paintseagull]

Welcome to CAP 19, CAP community, let's get the discussion going! Here's the concept that we've voted in and that we'll discussing here and throughout the project:

Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
• How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
• Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
• Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
• Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"

Explanation: Just going back to the basic rules of Pokemon, we all know we have to faint all 6 Pokemon on the opposing team. Once a member goes down, we think of it as a 5v6, and then subsequently a 4v6, etc. However, I was thinking if it was possible for a Pokemon to somehow "continue fighting", even after it faints, be it through a lasting effect on the field or by dissuading your opponent from fainting it. That, or having your opponent having the thought of fainting the mon being a taboo, causing them to choose their moves carefully instead of swinging their sweeper into motion all the time. Maybe the Pokemon can grab momentum extremely easily? I'm trying to wrap my head around my own concept myself, but you get the general idea. I hope.

I actually drew lots of inspiration from a specific type of Hyper Offense team in OU; the one known as "Flying Spam". However, that one is kind of one-dimensional and relies on repeatedly attacking to wear down your opponent's answers; my concept however tries to discover if it's even possible at all to take on that idea with a more defensive/balanced approach, or, on the flip side, to dissuade your opponent from recklessly swinging their battering rams into your team as it will leave repercussions if the mon faints.

Guidelines:

1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

Our topic leader, DarkSlay, will start off this thread with his opening thoughts. Make absolutely certain that you use his post as a starting point for your discussion to follow. Continue to pay attention to his posts as he begins to guide the community through the chosen topic! It's very important that we are discussing with each other under the TL's guidance, and not talk *over* each other! Posts will be deleted accordingly!

 

[DarkSlay]

First off, congrats to Yilx for winning the CAP 19 concept poll! This was the closest concept poll result in CAP history, so you know that it was both a difficult challenge to win and that the field of choices were very intuitive and valid. Let's get right to work!

The Concept Assessment thread for this project will be crucial in determining the direction we should be taking Einherjar. One thing that jumped out from the concept's questions and descriptions is that we should be looking as to what it means to get rid of a Pokemon in general. In some cases, that could mean that your team just eliminated a sweeper. Or, it could mean that the opponent's team lost their Stealth Rock setter, or their Defog user, or their Special Wall. KO'ing something normally means that a brick in your opponent's wall has been taken out, and there is a hole opening that specific Pokemon on your team can take advantage of.

Notice, though, that not every Pokemon can take advantage of this proverbial hole punched through the opponent's team. Once a team take out your opponent's Physical wall, like Skarmory, it's more than likely that using Physical threats will become more viable as the match progresses, with the most extreme cases resulting in the creation of a set-up opportunity for offensive teams or the ability for X wall to stay in and stay place comfortably against the remaining Pokemon. Likewise, teams in the advantage tend to heavily rely on the Pokemon that can take advantage of those holes and leave the Pokemon that can't advance further on the bench of their team. Decisions on which Pokemon to switch in and out become more concrete as Pokemon are eliminated from teams. This is a basic concept once you really think about it, but it's something that is often overlooked and meshes excellently with this concept.

Now, Einherjar is a complicated concept, no doubt. For a Pokemon to keep his presence felt on the battlefield after fainting and/or force the opponent to think twice about fainting it, it must play a role that discourages the opponent and places some sort of negative consequence as a result of fainting it. How this will be accomplished is really up in the air at the moment and is open to a wide spectrum of interpretation. Therefore, the Concept Assessment thread should aim to conclude with some sort of role for CAP 19 to carry out that relates to the concept's questions and goals.

With my rambling out of the way, I'll finish off these opening remarks with questions I want to see discussed and answered through this thread. While this topic is broad, I really want to stress these major points, and I expect discussion to involve these questions first and foremost.

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?
  
• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?
• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?
  
• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?
• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

I realize that, unlike CAP 18, these concept assessment questions are rather broad and rely a lot on theoretical discussion. However, what really should be done is a concise and enlightening discussion of the first four questions with the last question being that "knock-out punch" that gives us our job for CAP 19. Discuss these points heavily and provide competitive reasoning with your posts, and we will no doubt succeed in trying to figure out how to either cheat death or have death on our side!

Since we're only doing one thread for this, as our goal is to find a concrete direction for the process and let the remaining stages fill in the blanks, I plan to have this open for a good deal of time. The increased difficulty of discussions combined with the breadth of topics means that we need plenty of time to find a direction. That said, I will be popping in and out of the thread to help specify our direction and will be posting loose time interval points and a concrete 24-hour warning interval, so pay attention.

We haven't a moment to lose, so let's get down to business! This topic isn't for the faint of heart, after all!

...anyone? Get it? :(

 

[Ununhexium]

There are a few ways to do this.

The first thing I thought of when reading this concept was a status spammer. Nothing, and may I stress nothing, can leave its presence after a battle like a status spammer. Like a parashuffler, even if it dies, its work is done because it basically ruined the opposing team (especially offense).

Another thing I thought of was a hazard stacker / hazard setup stopper. This is shown in suicide leads who die early on, but the damage is done. They have successfully set up their hazards and/or got momentum for your team.

Onto the questions

I feel like they are both equally important. Tangible results are fun and all, but an easy momentum grabber or team opportunity getter is absolutely AWESOME. I can imagine this could turn out as something that does its job, faints, and then gives you momentum because you could switch in anything you want afterwards (sort of like a suicide lead).

The other five Pokemon are extremely important to this CAP because they must be able to capitalize off of its fainting, whether it be by getting a free turn when it forces the opponent out to set up or whatever. It should definitely be a team player because it leaves its presence on the field for team members to abuse.

I think it will be more about your team benefiting off of your Pokemon fainting. Your Pokemon fainting gives momentum, free turns, etc. while the only way it would be about hindering your opponent is with aftermath or something. I'm not exactly sure which end of the spectrum hazards are on. Are they hindering your opponent by weakening them, or is it about your team benefiting off of the easier sweep.

I think it would mostly be the threat of given momentum. I don't really know what to think of this yet as I would like to see more discussion about this :)

LET'S BUILD A SUICIDE LEAD AWWW YEEE!! I actually think a suicide lead could be cool because it can set hazards. cripple opponents, etc. and then give you momentum by fainting.

Let's have an awesome CAP!!

EDIT: FIRST POST :)

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Alright, this is really the best I think I can answer these question

What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

The main difference, at least in my opinion, is how these can be dealt with. A good amount of the time, the tangible results of fainting are usually not to hard to deal with. It is definitely going to impact your team, but you can usually deal with this quite easily. When it comes to raw power, you will usually be able to work with your other offensive pokes when you need to take out a certain pokemon. When it comes to bringing hazards up, you will be able to bring some of these hazards back up anyways, unless you only have 1 poke who can bring them up. When it comes to walls, while this is a bit tricky for balanced teams, stall teams will be able to use other pokes to stall a certain pokemon with. Tangible results are a bit trickier to deal with. Lost opportunities and momentum will definitely cause even more of your pokes to faint, maybe even lose the battle. Stuff like added stress will also cause you to be a bit more riskier than usual, doing stuff late game that you normally would not even consider doing early game.

How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

Very important. It should preform its role as a member of the team, if we are going to have our pokemon faint intentionaly, then we should create some type of way that our team can benefit off of this, whether it be through momentum or opportunity costs for the opponent.


Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

It is going to be more about the opponent being hindered by a pokemon fainting directly. However, it can most certainly be both. One example I would like to bring up is Mega Banette in the RU metagame. This thing is a powerful wallbreaker, being able to take out a nice amount of walls with its physical attacking power. But thats not to where I'm getting at. As we all know (Atleast I hope), Mega Banette gets Prankster+Destiny Bond. This is a deadly combination that can rrally benefit your team out by letting you take out a certain offensive poke, in some cases defensive, in order to not only hinder your opponent by having them lose a poke that they will need, but also getting a free switch and giving yourself a much easier time to wall/sweep your opponent. Now, I'm not saying we should get prankster destiny bond, but instead I'm saying we should go along the same route as a pokemon like this

How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

We can discourage the opponent from fainting a pokemon by either taking them out in the process, or by having them force us to bring in a Pokemon who can sweep/wall the opponents need without the worry of taking non-hazard damage from the switch. My second reasoning is definitely a constant result of a pokemon fainting but my first is more of a situational result depending on the pokemon

With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

Right now, I am thinking the best overall avenue for us to persue is to make a pomemon who can help, but not guarantee (Cough Cough Mega Gengar) our team by taking out certain pokemon on the opponents team who will be a threat to the team, but also losing our poke in the process

 

[V4LOVER]

Hazards are the first thing that comes to mind when I think of an impression even beyond fainting. I've had many battles in which something on my team went down following setting up SR or another hazard and it ended up being crucial in taking out heavily damaged targets later on. However, hazards shouldn't be the main focus for this CAP, as we have others that can do it well (Fidgit, for example), and as they can be removed as well as this concept being a discussion, hazards aren't all that a Pokemon can do to influence the late-game (or mid-game as well, depending on its fainting point), and we should explore further, but definitely keep them in mind.

Since the discussion is just starting and I can't think of much to contribute quite yet, go forth other people, spread your ideas!

 

[capefeather]

The most obvious effect of a fainted Pokemon is that the player whose Pokemon has just fainted has a free switch. This switch is done without expending a turn, a turn that the opponent could normally use to punish a switch, or even escape punishment. If we focus on this aspect, it's probably inevitable for CAP 19 to be about supporting the rest of the team. We could do something like a suicide field effect setter. If a Pokemon remains active after setting a field effect, that's one turn already burned. Another possibility is a choiced attacker bait, taking advantage of a situation that I think we're all familiar with, though this direction might depend too heavily on the typing.

 

[OverlordDerp]

Theoretical discussion ahoy! This is most likely going to be intellectually engaging for everyone involved.

Like Ununhexium, I immediately considered the idea of a status spammer. Something as simple as a single use of Toxic can cripple half a team if it opens a gaping hole in their defenses. Many teams tread lightly around status users in general, and some even run 'mons that can turn the advantage against status users, like Conkeldurr.

A certain, rather unique option came up in discussions involving these questions that Yilx proposed:

• How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
• Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?

In response to this, I realized something: Oftentimes, the concept of sacrifice applies to 'mons that either use Focus Sash to last a hit and set up hazards, or use a Choice item to repeatedly slam their face against the enemy team as hard as possible and/or as often as possible. Now this begs the question: Can this sort of pressure be translated into a defensive role, at least partially?

This is where a certain option came up: Grudge. Not specifically the move, but the action it performs. For those unaware, there is an ability called Cursed Body that has a 30% chance of applying the Disable effect for 3 turns onto a move that makes physical contact. As unlikely as it may be to be actually considered in the crafting of the CAP, we are presented here with the option to make a custom ability that completely drains the PP of the move used to knock CAP 19 out, as long as it is an attack. This has the potential to cripple a Choice user both in the short-term and long-term scenarios.
Now, for the questions:

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

The difference between tangible and theoretical results lies partially in what benefits your team more. If you need momentum, its priority is raised SUBJECTIVELY to the player and OBJECTIVELY in terms of the most effective/smart move to use to sate this need. As The Pizza Man states, the manner of dealing with said result is what differentiates between the type of results one can achieve. I feel like the key to creating CAP 19 is the incentive to understand not only your own actions, but the opponent's reactions as well. I can go all Sun Tzu here and say "If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles," and it'd be accurate. The point of CAP 19, in my opinion, is not only to dissuade the enemy from KOing it or leaving an impact after fainting, but to be able to more accurately gauge your opponent's strategy, mindset and team movesets so that you may use it to your advantage. In essence, CAP 19 can also be an incredibly effective scout as well as a defensive threat.

• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

VERY VERY IMPORTANT. CAP 19 must be able to play to its team's strengths and be able to cripple the enemy by using its KO to the team's advantage, be it through momentum, the Grudge passive mentioned above, or even through walling certain threats via defenses/statuses/both.

• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

It definitely has the potential to be both, but I feel that it is about the opponent being hindered, more so. I take your attention to Mega Houndoom, who has very powerful attacking prowess in UU, but can also run the move Destiny Bond to play its poor defenses and unfavorable defensive typing to his own team's advantage, by taking out a certain Pokemon before it can force even more of an advantage.

• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

I personally bring forth my Grudge-ability once again, because it can force your opponent to try and remove CAP 19 using status/hazards, or take CAP 19 down at the cost of one of its moves. In either scenario, you can plan how CAP 19 goes down and play that to your advantage. Other solutions can be through hazards, but it doesn't have to be specifically and exclusively this route. Status effects are particularly strong, and can be used in great effect to provide that after-KO impact.

• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

Due to the nature of moves and strategies that impact a team past a certain Pokemon's KO, I feel like an overall defensive route is the best way to go with CAP 19, with the possibilities of focusing on traits such as Choice attacker lure/bait, or a route like crippling the KOer, or a suicide hazard spreader/field effect starter.

 

[Ignus]

CAP time! I missed the concept polls because for some stupid reason, but I'm here now to argue with all of you as much as possible. Let's get started, shall we?

First of all, I want to help define what we mean by an after-death effect. From Dark's opening, It's clear that there's two ways to touch this concept. These can be separated into Passive A.D. Effects and Active A.D. Effects.

Active After Death is relatively simple. A task is distinctly preformed even after death, whether it comes from hazards, status, or other field effects such as Screens or Weather. Other active effects include things like Healing Wish, Memento, or the ability Aftermath. Active effects have the distinct advantage when it comes to player visibility. You can see it, you know it's useful, and so does your opponent. If you fight someone, and you realize that aftermath will kill your pokemon, it immediately dissuades you from killing that pokemon directly. It's obvious, easy to understand, and easy to use.

Passive After Death is a little more complicated. It's a situation that arises solely from the player's ability to predict. A good example would be this.
It's Quagsire vs Mega Venu. Their Quagsire will die if you attack. However, if you kill it, their Talonflame will not only get a free switch in, but will be able to kill at least 2 of your few remaining pokemon before being killed. So you have an obvious reason to NOT kill your opponent's pokemon. These circumstances arise regardless of pokemon abilities, and are much harder to attribute to the sacrificed 'mon. Generally, this is much harder to use or create correctly, but allows for easier integration into a team composition. You identify a partner for the sacrifice, let it handle that Pokemon's counters, then let it drop when it's either necessary or advantageous. Honestly, this is much, much harder to preform, but I feel will make for a much better discussion later along in the process.

P.A.D. Effects I'd greatly like to look towards, as it could teach us more about quick paced teams based on hitting a win condition as quickly as possible. If anything is going to be accomplished throughout the discussion phases of this project, this is the direction I'd like to see it go.

 

[Avnomke]

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

Tangible results cause theoretical results, which can cause more tangible results with lost momentum and holes in the team, etc. As such, I think that it doesn't matter which one we focus on, they're both related and causing one to happen causes the other to happen.

• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

Very. CAP19 is primarily a supportive pokemon, as it cannot by itself defeat more than one, maybe two pokemon.

• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

The team benefiting. Although fainting can cause a pokemon to faint (with Destiny Bond), I think we should be taking a more supportive approach, with hazards and/or status and such.

• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

Destiny Bond. Constant, assuming Destiny Bond always happens.

• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

A suicide hazards lead (like Froslass, maybe?) or a status spreader would be ideal, I think.

 

[Base Speed]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight then...

So we're building "A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints". Notice the "or" in bold. This concept is one of the most complex CAP has ever grappled with, so let's break it down into managable chunks:

• "Dissuading your opponent from fainting you"
• "Leaving your presence on the field after fainting"

In order to get anywhere with this concept, we must decide whether we're doing one (if so, which one) or both of these. It is my personal opinion that the learning opportunities of this concept are greater if we do both, and that there is an element of synergy between the two strategies (more on that later), so let's be bold and attempt both parts of this concept.

First off, how are we going to dissuade our opponent from fainting us? We should first analyse the consequences of fainting to see if any of them can be turned around to hurt your opponent:

What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

• Your opponent is 1/6 closer to winning. You will never benefit from this fact, it's not important for CAP19's goals
• Either a threat is eliminated or an opportunity (eg set up bait) is missed. Making a Pokemon that is designed to be set up bait means deliberately making CAP19 a liability (you might even we'd be making a risky CAP. Hint hint).
• You have a free switch. With the right Pokemon and the right situation, this free switch can be the opportunity to get an otherwise hard to switch in Pokemon in and/or threaten with a revenge kill and/or regain momentum
• More pressure on the rest of your team: One less Pokemon is one less piece of a puzzle, one less Pokemon to switch to when you need to. If anyone has an idea of how Faintmon can make this situation less punishing, let us know.
• Mechanics triggered by fainting: Destiny Bond, Aftermath and friends. I think we'll be talking about these a lot...

With that in mind:

How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

Well, that depends on which consequence of fainting we're looking at. Anything even closely resembling a consistent result has to come from the mechanics triggered by fainting and/or being attacked. The situational results then come from the free switch: it's situational because who knows what you've actually got to switch in, or the possibility of becoming set up bait, because who knows what your opponent has that might try setting up.

Thus the concrete results of fainting lie with Faintmon as an individual, and the situational results rely on the teammates:

How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

I think we need to take both approaches: if we do, the result will be a Pokemon that always at least slightly punishes your opponent for fainting it, but with intelligent use and a sprinkling of good fortune, can add even more punishment and become a real game changer.

Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

My team is never going to benefit from the loss of one of it's members. At all. Even if something happens to CAP19 that renders it as able to battle as a Caterpie, it can still be used to rescue another Pokemon by switching into an untankable attack and buying a free switch, or by simply being the only Pokemon alive win to me the game. The act of fainting can bring benefit, but it's a cost: being fainted is never better than being alive. I hope as a statement that makes sense, because we really need to understand it to move on.

How can a Pokemon leave it's presence on the field?

Ok, DarkSlay didn't ask that. I kinda made it up. But the questions in the OP have neglected this half of the concept and it needs to be discussed. To me, there are two obvious ways to leave your presence on the field after death:

• Field Effects
• Punching a hole in your opponents team, either by crippling one of their pokemon or knocking it out

A 'mon designed to be an attacker can only do one of these things, but 'mon designed to support can do both, by leaving field effects like Sticky Web and also hitting your opponent's Pokemon with burns or paralysis. I ask you: why have one when we could have both? A support mon is clearly the way to go here.
With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

The punishment for fainting takes a two pronged approach: Firstly, we build a Pokemon that has tangible ways to punish the opponent for fainting it: Destiny Bond, Aftermath, Iron Barbs, whatever. Then, we attempt to give CAP19 synergy with something that really enjoys free switches.

And in order to leave lasting effects on the field: This Pokemon should be a support mon. I've already laid out some reasons for this that I won't repeat, but I have one other. Consider this: a support 'mon needs to survive as long as possible, so it can support over and over. Typically, supporters are bulky, either through stats, typing, healing moves, whatever. But this Pokemon could get its bulk from the fact that your opponent doesn't want to kill it, and this then ties together the two different parts of the concept. Isn't that great? I think so.

To summarise:

• CAP19 should both hurt the opponent for fainting it AND leave it's presence on the field after fainting
• These roles work well together
• We should have both tangible, immediate punishments to the opponent and theoretical long term punishments for fainting CAP19
• CAP19 should syngergise with something that likes free switches
• It should be a support 'mon

If you want the reasoning behind that summary, I'm afraid you'll have to actually read my post. Bad luck.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think the best direction to take this is to do something like "Build a Better Forretress." Some people might cite Ferrothorn for this, but I think Ferrothorn is missing a key element that Forretress has, and that is the ability to also ruin the opponent's momentum. Ferrothorn can set hazards but it can't remove them, and Forretress is let down mostly because it doesn't have a threatening way to get itself out of a support situation. Volt Switch doesn't really cut it even though it has the same dry "passing" effect as a U-turn might (but U-turn would be STAB). I'm not saying this to front certain moves, I'm merely pointing out that Einherjar can easily be interpreted as a Pokemon that has the maximum passive effect on a battle possible.

I also don't think this lends itself to a suicide lead. Rather, I think it lends itself to a wall. Call this the "Wall of Spikes" theorem. Basically a wall of spikes is a very low priority for your opponent to knock out, because its threat comes not directly but indirectly. What changes when the Pokemon is actually in is it can build a very substantial momentum advantage and cause the opponent to rush in and make misplays.

Let me explain how this answers our questions:

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

In order to have theoretical results you usually MUST have tangible results. When an opponent faints your Pokemon their risk is a revenge killer, but allowing their own Pokemon to faint is almost always a worse option. By making CAP 19 extremely threatening indirectly, it becomes the kind of Pokemon an opponent puts a low priority on fainting until the moment it starts building momentum for your team. The less the opponent is able to stop that tangible momentum as you weaken their Pokemon, the stronger the psychological advantage you will have.

• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

Naturally, the rest of the team is very important as this kind of CAP will ease all of their KO situations. This CAP serves, then, as a kind of glue to the team's strategy whose presence is felt from the moment it is out, but not before. This Pokemon needs the rest of the team to provide it that one "free" turn, from which it starts wreaking havoc by stacking the deck against the opposing team.

• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

The two are intrinsically linked. If the cost of fainting CAP is substantially high once it is out, the opponent has to switch up their strategy immediately and suffer in the long term. By making CAP place the highest indirect price possible on that, it avoids being taken out as highly as an offensive Pokemon would, but its fainting nonetheless is something a foe would struggle with.

• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

Opportunity cost is the chief way to discourage fainting a Pokemon. A Pokemon of little direct threat can afford to be kept alive, but a Pokemon of immediate threat is highly sought after as a target. Indirect threats take more turns to be effective than direct ones, but can provide just as much of an edge.

• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

This question was addressed in my opening statements. I think the best course is to make CAP a "Wall of Spikes" by maximizing its tangible indirect effects on the battlefield, limiting its overall threat (like trying to force it to switch in) while maximizing its threat once out.

 

[ginganinja]

Can we please not do a suicide hazard setting. It just feels like creating a better version of Deoxys-S (or at least having that same influence on the metagame), which is a high risk / high reward pokemon to try and mimic, without breaking said CAP. Something like a strong suicide lead, will never discourage your opponent to faint it, because you want to kill it as quickly as possible to limit the amounts of hazards it can put down. Something that uses Destiny Bond on the other hand, provides mindgames as to whether you want to attack it, and risk dying, or not attack and risk it attacking you for free.

 

[jumpluff]

I think one of the best historical examples of what ginganinja is referring to is actually suicide lead Froslass. It is (or was) a speedy Pokémon with hazards and Destiny Bond (usually used in conjunction with Focus Sash), and a moderate SpA; many leads without priority struggled with the psychological Destiny Bond mindgame because it would depend on the opponent's priorities (get that next layer of Spikes or Destiny Bond for the equaliser KO on the lead, possibly wasting a turn), but leaving it alive was very dangerous, especially as it was also a Ghost-type and hence could block Rapid Spin. I think, ignoring setup fodder scenarios and edge cases where it's desirable to leave an opponent's Pokémon alive to force in later or for switch-in opportunities (e.g. Flash Fire), Froslass is the best model we have to date. (edit: If this wasn't clear, I'm actually suggesting that suicide leads can provide this situation, but not through hazards and more obviously through Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond, Aftermath, and lesser so Iron Barbs/Rough Skin are the most direct methods Pokémon already has to dissuade a KO.)

I somewhat agree with Deck Knight, although I do not agree hazards are the only way to accomplish this, because there are two different interpretations of the concept description as Yilx has written it, as I discussed on IRC before, which refer to different discussion questions.

A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

The first example, which most people seem more interested in, is not necessarily the same as the second, although the second can often be the first. The second could easily ignore the mindgame scenario Yilx presents and focus on making a Pokémon that is useful, or potentially even more useful, dead than alive, which places the dilemma in the user's field instead of the opponent's and completely changes the nature of the problem. This directly leads into Yilx's third question, as choosing to sacrifice your own Pokémon is often a radically different act (take Wish, Healing Wish, Explosion in other generations for momentum as examples, which are for the most part actions independent of the opponent) to choosing not to KO the opponent's Pokémon.

Other than the list of moves I discussed before like Grudge and the like where allowing yourself to die can prove a good action for your team (ignoring sac fodder), the only other tangentially related thing I can think of is the set of trapping abilities, which allow for direct kills or setups, but I think this is more relevant to exploring when it is optimal to faint an opponent's Pokémon rather than the impact of death on a Pokémon team.

 

[Tsaeb XIII]

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

There are two major types of tangible benefits that can result from allowing one of your own Pokemon to faint: firstly, you can gain a free switch for a team member and secondly, you gain an additional turn with the Pokemon you are sacrificing. Both of these are intended to produce one or more of the theoretical benefits from fainting. Sacrificing a Pokemon to gain a free switch is usually done to gain (or preserve) momentum, or perhaps to reduce opportunity cost by sacrificing a team member that has become disposable instead of losing a team member that remains valuable. Utilising an additional turn can be achieved a number of different ways: the sacrifice could allow for a crippling status to be inflicted on an opposing team member, creating team opportunities after the sacrifice; the additional turn could allow for an extra layer of hazards to be set; raw damage being dealt could put that could otherwise check/counter another team member into OHKO range, opening up further team opportunities. In general, I would suggest that the benefits from the free switch dimension of a KO are primarily momentum orientated, while the benefits from the extra turn dimension are primarily team opportunity related. On the flip side, the major negative tangible result of a KO is the loss of one of the tools in your toolbox; unless the Pokemon being sacrificed has become entirely useless in the match context, losing it requires the remaining team mates to do more of the job than they otherwise would have needed to.

I believe that all three of these dimensions are essential when discussing CAP 19, but that the most interesting conversations will arise from the team opportunities and team stress aspects. Sacrificing a Pokemon to hold momentum is a well explored aspect of Pokemon; HO teams rely on it much of the time. As it happens, it's also the dimension that depends most heavily on match situation. Designing a Pokemon that primarily intended to gain momentum by being sacrificed should not be our primary focus, although as a secondary objective it has value. On the other hand, I believe that there is a great deal to be explored in terms of the team opportunities from fainting. Hazards are a well explored way of doing this, particularly in the form of suicide hazard layers, and therefore we rob this project of a lot of its learning value if we take the suicide hazard approach. Status, Destiny Bond, Encore, Choice luring, Healing Wish, Aftermath, Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet and even Sucker Punch offer interesting dimensions for a Pokemon to create opportunities for other members of it's team while using the extra turn from being KO'd. I think that the aspect of losing one of your tools is also interesting to explore. In response to a question raised by Base Speed above, I think the best way to reduce the impact on your team of losing a team member is for CAP 19 to have designed redundancy. Early in a match, CAP 19 may have roles in the team that make it worth preserving (and perhaps even beneficial for the opponent to KO). However, by the time we plan for CAP 19 to be KO'd, that should be its major remaining objective. Designing a Pokemon that does this without resorting to a suicide hazard layer would be an interesting challenge (one option that comes to mind is a Pokemon capable of operating as an anti-hazard lead).

• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

Essential. Even the most standalone suicide leads do what they do because of the support they offer their team; CAP 19 has to be designed with, at the very least, a team archetype into which it is meant to fit. All of the lingering benefits CAP 19 creates while being KO'd can only be exploited by the teammates left behind; residual damage makes life easier for a late game sweeper/cleaner, crippling status makes life easier for a check/counter, setup opportunities must be exploited by a setup sweeper. If we don't know which Pokemon CAP 19 is expected to be partnered with, we don't know what post-KO effect we want it to have.

• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

I think the two are naturally linked, but that the primary focus is on your team benefiting. To bring up a classic example, Golurk in Gen V OU was often mentioned as an unviable Pokemon that nevertheless hard countered Terrakion. Having Golurk on your team certainly hindered Terrakion. However, Golurk posed little threat to much else in OU, and therefore didn't really threaten Terrakion in a way that benefited any viable OU team or that justified the opportunity cost of including it instead of something else. I fully expect that CAP 19 will hinder the opponent when it is KO'd, but that will be in the broader context of benefiting its team through hindering the opponent. Of course, CAP 19 could benefit its team in other ways (setup opportunity, for example), but I expect its team support to be multifaceted and thus, at some level, include hindering the opponent.

• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

I don't think that there is a generally applicable way of discouraging an opponent from KO'ing something; it's very much dependent upon which Pokemon are in play. If the opponent's Pokemon is setup bait for something else on your team if it gets a free switch, it is automatically a bad decision for your opponent to KO. If, in the process of obtaining the KO, your opponent knows that an essential component of their team will be crippled, then it's a bad decision to KO. We can make this reasonably consistent by designing CAP 19 in such a way that most OU matches will have at least one game scenario in which KO'ing CAP 19 is worse than leaving it in play.

• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

One of the most difficult aspects of CAP 19 is going to be ensuring that match situations arise in which it is detrimental for the opponent to KO it. In pursuit of this goal, I believe that we should aim to select a group of roughly similar OU Pokemon that, between them, appear in most teams. CAP 19 should be capable of switching into those Pokemon and crippling them if they go for the KO, acting as a reliable switch in throughout the match until a KO is attempted (immediately Regenerator comes to mind, but this is by no means essential). Outside of this role, CAP 19 may have some early game functionality (early game anti-hazards would work well, as suggested earlier), but it should otherwise be mostly self redundant; while the Pokemon it checks are still in play, it has a role to check them; once CAP 19 is gone, they should be crippled. Obviously, CAP 19's team should then be built to take advantage of the ability to have these threats neutralised.

 

[NumberCruncher]

So before we start brainstorming what we should be doing for this Pokemon, let's first look at what this concept looks like too weak for OU.

Banette

Set Name: Prankster Abuser
Move 1: Destiny Bond
Move 2: Taunt
Move 3: Thunder Wave/Will O Wisp
Move 4: Knock Off/Shadow Sneak/Shadow Claw
Item: Banettite
Ability: Frisk (Prankster as Mega)
EVs: 252 HP/252 ATK/4 SpD
Nature: Adamant

We said we wanted a Pokemon that had a lasting impact on the game after death while inherently making the opponent unwilling to kill it. Banette fills the first of these role by dropping status condition. He also fills the latter category by killing the Pokemon that killed it with Destiny Bond. You can't even really switch stall him out of Destiny Bonds, since his Attack let's him hit like a truck. So the question becomes "If Mega-Banette is so handy, then why isn't it in OU?" Well, Banette has a few different things going against it.

1) It's a Mega, which means you can't run any other Mega with Banette on your team. This is inherently absent from whatever we make, so point goes to new Pokemon.
2) Once it gets a status condition, it can't really remove it. It sort of dodges this with its Taunt, but it makes Banette have a hard time switching into stall pokemon, and once it has the condition, it can't threaten Destiny Bond anymore. Aromatherapy can probably clear that up, and it works well with Prankster.
3) Its abysmal Speed means that Thundurus is going to get the drop on it with its own Prankster Taunt and cripple it soundly. In fact, nearly every other Prank Taunter is faster than it, so it's pretty easily knocked into submission. More Speed would help that problem.

 

[Salt]

I agree with what ginganinja said above; no suicide hazard leads. The way I see it is, having Deoxys-S/D in the metagame until now has taught us plenty about fast hazard setters, and they were definitely not Pokemon you wanted to restrain yourself from knocking out. In fact, there isn't very much that's already been posted about that seem like blatant shortcuts about "lasting effects". We already know that hazards have a lasting effect after the mon who sets them dies; it's pretty much what they're made for. Destiny Bond is in a similar boat; it's a move specifically designed to dissuade the opponent from KO'ing you. IMO, if we make a Destiny Bond user, this won't be a very interesting project. I'm not a fan of field effects either since pretty much all of them will only last five turns, and so there isn't much of a "lasting effect" after the setter dies, not to mention that most outside of Gravity and Trick Room are competitively useless. Weather can last eight turns and has more inherent benefits, but I feel that weather has enough representation in the metagame right now, and there's not much we can learn from that. I think there's one approach that I'm okay with, and I'll take a look at some of the questions to prove my point.

How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

This is, without a doubt, a team effort. How good is a Pokemon that is supposed to discourage the opponent from fainting it or having have lasting effects after it faints supposed to act independently? These sort of roles seem to be entirely team dependent to succeed, seeing as how you're supposed to have a major benefit despite being one mon down. The way CAP 19 affects the battle post-mortem will also have to be something that threatens the opponent quite a bit.

Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

In either case, I think it has to be both. This isn't a hard question to wrap one's head around; wouldn't a benefit to your team immediately be a hindrance to your opponent? If it were to go one way, I think supporting your own team is more important because the momentum and support you recieve can help cause more pain to your opponent in the long run, rather than just targeting the opponent directly.

How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

This is the question where I get to my point. I'm going to address the last part of the question first. It should definitely be situational because this role of a "KO discouraging mon" would definitely need the right teammates to work. My point in all of this is that we attempt to create a good mid-to-late game support mon for the team to set the stage for a particularly dangerous mon to come in and sweep. We should make this CAP work with the entire team; it shouldn't be an all-in-one supporter. Ideally, this Pokemon would be on a balanced team with a late game sweeper that's hard to get in and set up with if it doesn't have a free turn. CAP 19 can be a sort-of mid-to-late game supportive mon whose death would offer a free switch to the aformentioned late game sweeper. Why I think things like hazards, Destiny Bond, or weather is that these need to be set up and used almost right off the bat, and the opponent will be actively attempting to stop these things from happening. How CAP 19 would offer its support is what we need to find out; Ununhexium's initial idea of a status spreader doesn't seem like a bad idea. It obviously has lasting effects and, depending on which status we try to spread, would be able to set the stage for a sweeper. Now, I haven't refined this idea fully, but, in my opionion, doing something like this is the best way to execute this concept, because the support it provides provides lasting effects, and the potential to offer a dangerous sweeper a free switch is the perfect way to dissuade someone from fainting the CAP.

 

[FireArrow]

There's three things in this game the you a direct benefit from fainting. Destiny Bond, Grudge, and Aftermath.

Grudge is just a inferior destiny bond, so we can cross that off. Aftermath is an interesting option, being able to possibly bring valuable Pokemon into KO range for an ally thus forcing the opponent to ask "Do I really want to do this?" Unfortunately, basing a Pokemon off of this ability is incredibly gimmicky due to the disgusting requirement of contact moves. Destiny bond is the most usable of these options, however, using this as our foundation alone will create a chancy Pokemon that we'll learn nothing from.

While it would definitely spice things up to throw a couple of these in, they should not be used as a basis for CAP19.

Another interesting thing brought up is the use of lasting effects, including, but not limited to: Status, Hazards, Weather, Pseudo-Weather, and Terrains. The issue is, these things benefit you dead or alive, so players would prefer you to be off the playing feild. However, this could be circumnavigated when combined with other factors, which I'll revisit later.

The above pretty much just enforces the idea that we should take the Passive approach. While everyone's been typing up miniature essays trying to nail down how we should do this, capefeather already hit the bird with his 5 sentence sling-shot.

The most obvious effect of a fainted Pokemon is that the player whose Pokemon has just fainted has a free switch. This switch is done without expending a turn, a turn that the opponent could normally use to punish a switch, or even escape punishment. If we focus on this aspect, it's probably inevitable for CAP 19 to be about supporting the rest of the team. We could do something like a suicide field effect setter. If a Pokemon remains active after setting a field effect, that's one turn already burned. Another possibility is a choiced attacker bait, taking advantage of a situation that I think we're all familiar with, though this direction might depend too heavily on the typing.

Underlined the main points I'm talking about. CAP19 should explore the relationship between creating a free switch and lasting "A.D." effects.

I would explain, but the second sentence I underlined already explains it, so instead, I'll go into more depth about individual categories.

1. Hazards: We already know what a suicide lead does, set up as much hazards as possible and gain momentum by dying. For this to accurately check out our concept, however, we need some method of dissuading the opponent from killing you, so we turn to the only thing in Pokemon that does that - destiny bond. A Pokemon based around hazard setting will only be successful if we include destiny bond, otherwise it'll be Deo-S (which you want to K.O.) My biggest issue with this is that it's not that hard to click defog.
   
2. Status: Status is usually used to halt the opponents momentum, so utilizing the momentum of a free switch is a bit redundant. The only way I can think of to abuse this is by crippling a threat then switching in a set-up sweeper on the now burned physical attacker. Even if your frail af and get KO'd after W.o.W.-ing, your opponent may not want to do so, knowing it'll be a guaranteed BD for your azumarill in the wings.
3. Weather, Pseudo-Weather, and Terrains: These are grouped because they do the same thing and is what capefeather was suggesting. I remember back in DPP PBR 3v3, I created a shitty gimmick reliant on this. Trickroom + Destiny Bond Kirlia and Curse + Last Resort Munchlax (yes, I thought I was cool for using NFEs >_>.) While besides the obvious losing to every competent team, I found this strategy incredibly frustrating when the opponent refused to kill Kirlia, because I was reliant on something happening every turn (1. Trickroom and sash activate, 2. Kirlia pulls the opponent with it using DB, 3. Munchlax uses Curse, 4&5. Muchlax sweeps the remaining two pokemon.) The reason I'm sharing this useless strategy is because it does exactly what CAP19 is trying to do. If, say, Kirlia wasn't Kirlia but a wild CAP19 that the opponent was prepared for, they would avoid killing him BECAUSE they don't want to get swept by a swift swim swords dance Kabutops. For reasons stated, I think this is our best path.

The largest kink in options 2 and 3 is that if your foe decides not to K.O. you, you're dead weight. This can be alleviated by introducing some way for us take advantage of staying alive. Dare I say, CAP19 needs some way to punish the opponent for keeping it alive. This seems a bit counter intuitive, creating a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario, however, we can't ignore the fact that a Pokemon cannot be viable if it's only function is something your opponent controls (when you're KOd.) To create a theoretical scenario, imagine if CAP19 was a suicide Sunny Day setter with Spikes. If you kill CAP19 after it sets up SD, you give whatever sun abuser that comes in next the chance to do whatever it wants, but every turn you try to stall it out, you end up with a layer of Spikes under your feet.

I don't feel like writing a conclusion, so take this lollipop instead.

EDIT: One lasting effect that we all forgot about is stat drops. Using feather dance then dying creates a similar effect to memento.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

There's three things in this game the you a direct benefit from fainting. Destiny Bond, Grudge, and Aftermath.

Grudge is just a inferior destiny bond, so we can cross that off.

I disagree, and actually think Grudge might be the way to go here (read: might).

Destiny Bond is great because it kills an opponent, but then what do you have? A double-blind switch. With Grudge, we suddenly have a situation where the opponent can be crippled, meaning you get a free turn with whatever mon you switch in.

But how does this differ from regular momentum swings from a fainted mon? After all, if the opposing Tyranitar KOs your Talonflame and you switch in Rock Polish Terrakion, you've essentially gained the same free turn, right? Wrong. With Grudge, that Tyranitar suddenly lost its Stone Edge forever, meaning suddenly you can switch in, say, Charizard, with impunity. Grudge allows you to set up with Pokemon that normally wouldn't be allowed to switch-in on a faint. And moreover, unlike, say, Memento, the effect is permanent, allowing for an easier sweep because one of your counters can't effectively counter you anymore.

I'd say that's vastly superior to a simple 1-1 tradeoff with a double-blind switch, depending on your team.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

The most obvious ways to make a Pokemon's presence known after it faints is by leaving effects on the field or on the opponent's Pokemon for the rest of the battle. I can think of two ways of doing the former, by either setting hazards or by spreading status effects. Setting hazards easily has been done to death: we just kicked a couple schmucks to Ubers for their ability to set hazards and we know how suicide leads work. They set hazards, pair with Defiant users, and make offensive teams good. Although I believe that building a suicide lead would be pro-concept, it would also be extremely boring and not teach us very much about the metagame. The second way to make a Pokemon's presence felt after its death is to have it spread status or damage throughout the opponent's team while not caring very much about fainting. We can make a sweeper or a particularly good status spreader to accomplish this, and it would be pro-concept. However, it would be against the spirit of the concept because this Pokemon's teammates would inevitably be tasked with the burden of maintaining those hazards and status effects. Furthermore, whether CAP19 is spreading status or hazards, it's not removing the opponent's incentive to knock it out. That's ignoring the difficult half of the concept to accomplish the easy half. While I admit the concept does say "or", it'd be a waste to only focus on what it can do and force its teammates to maintain the support it gave them.

Instead, I'd like to focus on what happens after a Pokemon is knocked out. When you lose a Pokemon, you get to switch in whatever you want. The times when you bring in a Pokemon after another one faints are the only true "free" switches in the game because your opponent can do nothing to prevent you from doing what you want that turn (barring knockout by entry hazards). Often when you bring in a Pokemon for free after a KO it's either to revenge kill the opponent or set up yourself. If you want to prevent your opponent from getting those revenge kills or setup opportunities, you cannot knock out their Pokemon. That's how I believe we should attack this concept. We should create a Pokemon that is most likely to be knocked out by Pokemon a sweeper of our choice can set up on. For example, if we designed a Pokemon that is defeated by Pokemon that Mega Charizard X can set up on, opponents will have to risk letting M-Zard X set up if they want to knock out CAP19. Better yet, if CAP19 could also defeat M-Zard X counters then the two would form a nice pair.

If we create a status spreader or hazard spreader, we force our teammates to spend the rest of the battle preventing Defog or Heal Bell while not learning all that much about the metagame. We should capitalize on the free switches that only occur after a Pokemon is knocked out.

 

[FierceDeity1]

The more I think about it, the more I like Grudge. What I like about it is that it can fulfill both sides of the concept. Let's take an opponent's Mega Charizard X as an example. If we make our CAP able to shrug off any two of Dragon Claw, Flare Blitz, or Earthquake, but be weak to the other one, then we almost force Char to knock us out with that movewe are weakest to. We Grudge it, then Char is completely out of a moveslot for the rest of the game. We get in more free switches later in the game because now Char can't touch Heatran, Terrakion, or whatever we pair CAP up with. That is how we continue fighting after fainting. We can also pair that with status spreading or hazard stacking, as Char may decide to set up on us (because the opponent has been dissuaded fron KOing us).

Note that this goes along with what DLC said above. We can turn what is usually a threat into set up bait by removing said threat's coverage move completely.

 

[LightningLord2]

Has anyone considered abilities like Static or Cursed Body? It's true they also work if our CAP survives the hit, but it does make the opponent wary of attacking as an attack might cripple the sweeper.

I wish I could add anything else to that >_>

 

[FireArrow]

Instead, I'd like to focus on what happens after a Pokemon is knocked out. When you lose a Pokemon, you get to switch in whatever you want. The times when you bring in a Pokemon after another one faints are the only true "free" switches in the game because your opponent can do nothing to prevent you from doing what you want that turn (barring knockout by entry hazards). Often when you bring in a Pokemon for free after a KO it's either to revenge kill the opponent or set up yourself. If you want to prevent your opponent from getting those revenge kills or setup opportunities, you cannot knock out their Pokemon. That's how I believe we should attack this concept. We should create a Pokemon that is most likely to be knocked out by Pokemon a sweeper of our choice can set up on. For example, if we designed a Pokemon that is defeated by Pokemon that Mega Charizard X can set up on, opponents will have to risk letting M-Zard X set up if they want to knock out CAP19. Better yet, if CAP19 could also defeat M-Zard X counters then the two would form a nice pair.

I'm almost inclined to say that that would be anti-concept, because only a small portion of the metagame is inclined to avoid knocking you out. It's definitly the right way to go about this, but simply doing that by itself is going to be a very low percentage shot per say.

If we create a status spreader or hazard spreader, we force our teammates to spend the rest of the battle preventing Defog or Heal Bell while not learning all that much about the metagame. We should capitalize on the free switches that only occur after a Pokemon is knocked out.

While I agree with you on hazards, you're dismissing a greater potential status has. Burns and paralysis can do what you suggested in the first paragraph, but better. A burned Terrakion is set-up bait for more than just one set up sweeper, assuming your K.O.d after inflicting status.

EDIT: In response to JayHankEdLyon and FierceDeity1 , I never thought of grudge that way. I like it.

 

[Zephias]

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

I believe both of them are important, however for CAP 19 to be effective a pretty substantial theoretical result in CAP 19's user's favor needs to happen. Since a 'mon fainting invariably adds pressure on your other 'mons and represents a lot of lost possibilities when switching, walling, etc. CAP 19 needs to leave a similar hole in the opponent's team, be it through faining or otherwise rendering a 'mon useless/setup-fodder. The tangible results should also be present as options to get the highest amount of benefit out of the life that is already considered "forfeit".

That said, I believe we should consider making a CAP that limits the fainting possibilities to the max. A 'mon that the opponent wants to take off the field but needs to consider how to do it carefully to avoid crippling his own team in the process. Things like the ability Mummy (just an example of how the mechanics could work) come to mind. With that ability you could potentially cripple 'mons that depend heavily on their own ability to fight, thus making the opponent have to dig around his team for a way to safely take out CAP 19. Grudge could also accomplish this by effectively neutering an offensive 'mon, plus the potential prediction outplays such situations would create. As in, switching in just to die on the first hit but crippling the enemy mon at the same time and saving a 'mon from certain death while granting a free switch on the now crippled 'mon. Thus having the 'mon's life be a pressure-generating factor, both in regards of how it can hider you and how to take it out with the least amount of collateral damage.

• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

CAP 19 needs to be part of a team. It should generate pressure by itself and all but creating a 'mon designed to faint without thinking which other 'mons could benefit from the openings it creates is pointless. After all, CAP 19 will be dad and can't really seize said opportunities by itself.

• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

It is a play of both. CAP 19 should generate an opening big enough for its user to seize and gain a considerable advantage, somehow making up for the fact that it is now fainted. In a sense, CAP 19 needs to go beyond making up for its death. It needs to make the opponent consider the damage done to him and the possibilities that gave to the opponent and think think "was it really worth it".

We are making the Pyrrhic Victory Pokemon right here.

• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

We have a decent amount of tools at our hands. Abilities that can make the attacking 'mon cripple itself, Destiny Bond, Grudge, Aftermath...

And it CAN be a constant result, yet not always with the same effects overall. CAP needs to have some form of counter-play. Say the ability form of Grudge that was proposed before. Sure, if you play the 'mon well enough you'll cripple a 'mon, yet a canny opponent will find a way to tribute a secondary attack in a way or even make it so the loss of PP won't be that bad a result. The effect on momentum and generated pressure will be situational, so to make CAP 19 see a decent amount of play even though it is insanely risky by definition we need to make it so the opponent always loses something if directly targeting CAP 19, no matter how meager the loss. In cases the loss can be negligible and you're suddenly in a lot of trouble, yet the psychological effect of "how to contain the damage" can make the opponent misplay.

• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

I think something like the "Wall of Thorns" Ylix proposed would be the best avenue, actually. A suicide lead is something way too constant and present in the metagame right now, plus It doesn't really generate that "crap I might've wasted too much on that 'mon" feel (possible exception in well-played froslass). A 'mon that requires a lot of sacrifice to take out instead of a 'mon that is there just to die a turn after seems the best option to me.

PD: I apologize if my post gets circular at times, I'm slightly bad at explaining myself when writing/

 

[En Passant]

So before we start brainstorming what we should be doing for this Pokemon, let's first look at what this concept looks like too weak for OU.

Banette

Set Name: Prankster Abuser
Move 1: Destiny Bond
Move 2: Taunt
Move 3: Thunder Wave/Will O Wisp
Move 4: Knock Off/Shadow Sneak/Shadow Claw
Item: Banettite
Ability: Frisk (Prankster as Mega)
EVs: 252 HP/252 ATK/4 SpD
Nature: Adamant

We said we wanted a Pokemon that had a lasting impact on the game after death while inherently making the opponent unwilling to kill it. Banette fills the first of these role by dropping status condition. He also fills the latter category by killing the Pokemon that killed it with Destiny Bond. You can't even really switch stall him out of Destiny Bonds, since his Attack let's him hit like a truck. So the question becomes "If Mega-Banette is so handy, then why isn't it in OU?" Well, Banette has a few different things going against it.

1) It's a Mega, which means you can't run any other Mega with Banette on your team. This is inherently absent from whatever we make, so point goes to new Pokemon.
2) Once it gets a status condition, it can't really remove it. It sort of dodges this with its Taunt, but it makes Banette have a hard time switching into stall pokemon, and once it has the condition, it can't threaten Destiny Bond anymore. Aromatherapy can probably clear that up, and it works well with Prankster.
3) Its abysmal Speed means that Thundurus is going to get the drop on it with its own Prankster Taunt and cripple it soundly. In fact, nearly every other Prank Taunter is faster than it, so it's pretty easily knocked into submission. More Speed would help that problem.

I think this post needs more attention. Mega Banette already has tons of things that can leave a presence when/after it faints: Statuses, Destiny Bond, Grudge, Trick (I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, it's an excellent way of causing permanent damage), weathers, all with priority by the way, Trick Room, partial trapping, and the ability to punish foes that keep it alive with that huge Attack stat. Yet it's still in RU. Will creating a CAP that's essentially Mega Banette with the three problems Number mentioned being fixed actually make an impact in OU?

 

[Ignus]

I think we should redefine what we mean by leaving your 'presence' on the battlefield, whether that's before or after death. Right now, We're treating presence as something only tangible that directly comes from the use of a move.
For example, if you send out latios, and are prepared to use Draco-Meteor the next turn with close to no retaliation, you have high presence. Something on their team is going to have to take a hard hit, no matter what they do.
Basically, a high presence comes from the ability to greatly punish the enemy's mistakes with little to no ability to retaliate.

Make sense? I hope so. Now let's talk about the concept. Right now, it could be said that there are two different criteria for the concept. One is maintaining presence after death. There's really easy ways to do this. Weather, Hazards, anything like this has a lasting effect on the battle, even after death. On the same note, defog and rapid spin leave a similar effect on the battlefield, although it's much more defensively oriented.

Secondly, there's maintaining presence while alive, but discouraging death. That is to say, changing your opponent's thinking from "I better kill CAP!" to "If I kill CAP bad things happen!" This is where moves like Destiny Bond come in. They directly discourage the killing of your Pokemon, but can produce just as much threat as a solid Draco-Meteor. Discouraging death is NOT LIMITED TO EFFECTS THAT ONLY OCCUR WHEN YOU FAINT. Ferrothorn is a good example of this. If you poke it, it pokes back. if you poke it too much, you die. If you don't die, then you get hurt super bad before you can kill it. Honestly, Aftermath is like a shitty version of Iron Barbs. Other abilities do this to an extent, as well.

I made this pretty chart to explain where normal "roles" fit in.

We want the top right. That is all.