On the set, there's a section that says "Tags". Read that to see what tier the set is for.
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OU Analyses Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
That's kind of counter-intuitive. The tags should work as a sorting system, not a visual indicator. Why aren't there tabs like in the old system? I don't want to be bothered scrolling through Ubers sets for an OU pokemon, or doubles sets when I'm looking for OU... Or in the very least have the sets for the same tier grouped together...
It's going to be implemented soon iirc. Remember, this is still in Beta. :]
It would be nice to give an actual reasoning before dismissing stuff, you know just for the formalities, you are after all the co-leader of OU c&c.
Moving on, EQ is nice for Keldeo agreed, but Keldeo is neither one of the biggest of Tyranitar's worries nor is it directly dealt with by EQ, so i think it's a pretty minor case. Zard X is hit harder by Stone Edge, and Fire Blast also hits Aegislash for good damage, while none EQ or Fire Blast can 2HKO max HP Aegislash. Not to mention that you didn't take into consideration the advantage of the moves i suggested at all. Stone Edge OHKOes Talonflame (even when burned), OHKOes offensive Mega Zard X after two sandstorm rounds (one as you come in and one as you attack) which EQ can't do while Zard 2HKOes back with EQ, Mega Pinsir, and Thundurus, all Pokemon that Tyranitar can check.
alright, so basically i feel like although the loss of recoil is nice, it's too weak in general. like iirc it doesn't even ohko mega mawile? since you like it for sharp beak here's the thing, i actually (and not just me) like running speed and jolly for thundy on sharp beak and fire blast does crap to thundy, while high roll flare blitz after sr, after a bb, or worst case thundurus dies after lo damage. or lets just say you're adamant and thundy switched in, same difference. that's just one scenario. there's also the case of av raikou which you can barely scratch without flare blitz. these factors (weak, ineffective on thundy/raikou) are major negatives for me. i don't approve of more than an oo mention.
i'm not ignoring the merit of those moves, i'm simply saying that they are currently slashed and i think they're fine like that.
i'm not ignoring the merit of those moves, i'm simply saying that they are currently slashed and i think they're fine like that.
i'm not a huge fan of fire blast. you have to split ev's to gain a few cute KO's. it's something i'd run in a tournament environment as a gimmick, but i don't think i'd support that as a set because of the fact that it's very niche. a set option mention is fine for me.
alexwolf what set on tyranitar are you supporting? i can't really catch it from reading over the thread.
alexwolf what set on tyranitar are you supporting? i can't really catch it from reading over the thread.
Okay, so as the friendly neighborhood Terrakion enthusiast (and the writer of its analysis), I was looking over the current analysis and got to thinking about a few changes. I realize that some of these things were already brought up before, so I apologize if I'm reinventing the wheel with some of these proposals, but here's my opinion on a couple of things.
So yeah, that's about all I can think of at the moment. Sorry to keep bringing up Terrakion stuff so often, but I really like it, lol.
First, would anyone be opposed to dropping the Choice Band set to the last one? It's not that it's bad, it's just that I generally find myself choosing the Life Orb set over the Choice Band one if I want a wallbreaking Terrakion. It's arguable even more dangerous vs defensive teams thanks to its ability to switch moves and use HP Ice for Landorus-T and non-SpD Gliscor, and being trapped into one of Terrakion's main moves always runs the risk of letting a dangerous Pokemon such as Landorus, Mega Mawile, and Aegislash in for free. I feel that this drawback is easier to forgive for the Choice Scarf set since it's such a great catch-all check to a ton of common threats, but it's more of an opportunity cost when you can use the Life Orb set to pull off similar wallbreaking feats with less risk.
Speaking of the Choice Scarf set, now that Deoxys-S is banned, I think it'd be fine to drop X-Scissor to Set Details. It's still useful for a couple of things like the Lati twins and Mega Alakazam since you now outspeed them thanks to the Choice Scarf, but Deoxys-S was a huge reason why I liked the move so much and it's gone now. I think Dice (or maybe someone else) mentioned Iron Head to replace it, which sounds alright. You threaten Clefable more and YAY FLINCHES!
I'd also like to propose giving Adamant a slightly more generous mention in the Set Details of the Choice Scarf set. Jolly is obviously still better for a couple of reasons. You can at worse speed tie with other Choice Scarf Terrakion or Keldeo, you outspeed Choice Scarf variants of Kyurem-B and Garchomp, you can beat the occasional Jolly Charizard X at +1, and you can outspeed Adamant Kabutops in Rain and +2 Dragonite if you mess up and let it get a second Dragon Dance, to name a couple. Oh, and you still have good speed in case you get your Choice Scarf Knocked Off, I guess. However, if you aren't particularly worried about some of these examples, then the power boost of Adamant can be pretty useful. For example, an Adamant nature gives Choice Scarf Terrakion a shot at OHKOing uninvested Mega Mawile after Stealth Rock, which it couldn't get close to doing before. In fact, the extra 10% power is going to be helpful pretty much all the time. The spread I personally have tried was 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe, which lets Terrakion still outspeed Jolly Choice Scarf Excadrill while giving it a little boost to its decent bulk. Not a huge deal, but I've just found that Adamant Terrakion still does a good job of checking most sweepers that I need it to check, and some of the examples that Jolly helps with are uncommon, risky even with a Jolly nature, able to be handled by other checks, or can be played around.
I think this was also brought up before, but I'd like to drop Swords Dance to Set Details of the Stealth Rock set or remove it altogether. It just feels like Stealth Rock + Swords Dance Terrakion is trying to do too much at once, but more importantly, you get shut down much more easily by Aegislash. If Aegislash ends up being banned, I think Swords Dance will work well over Earthquake, but at the moment I'm not so sure. I'd also like to suggest the items be swapped. I've found that Focus Sash works better alongside Taunt since both are great for the lead position against opposing hazard setters. Alternatively, Life Orb is better with Earthquake since the goal of that set is to support the team while also dishing out powerful hits, which I think the Life Orb helps more with. Since Taunt is slashed before Earthquake, I think that the item slot should follow suit with Focus Sash slashed before Life Orb. Or you could just swap the moves instead, either way.
Speaking of the Choice Scarf set, now that Deoxys-S is banned, I think it'd be fine to drop X-Scissor to Set Details. It's still useful for a couple of things like the Lati twins and Mega Alakazam since you now outspeed them thanks to the Choice Scarf, but Deoxys-S was a huge reason why I liked the move so much and it's gone now. I think Dice (or maybe someone else) mentioned Iron Head to replace it, which sounds alright. You threaten Clefable more and YAY FLINCHES!
I'd also like to propose giving Adamant a slightly more generous mention in the Set Details of the Choice Scarf set. Jolly is obviously still better for a couple of reasons. You can at worse speed tie with other Choice Scarf Terrakion or Keldeo, you outspeed Choice Scarf variants of Kyurem-B and Garchomp, you can beat the occasional Jolly Charizard X at +1, and you can outspeed Adamant Kabutops in Rain and +2 Dragonite if you mess up and let it get a second Dragon Dance, to name a couple. Oh, and you still have good speed in case you get your Choice Scarf Knocked Off, I guess. However, if you aren't particularly worried about some of these examples, then the power boost of Adamant can be pretty useful. For example, an Adamant nature gives Choice Scarf Terrakion a shot at OHKOing uninvested Mega Mawile after Stealth Rock, which it couldn't get close to doing before. In fact, the extra 10% power is going to be helpful pretty much all the time. The spread I personally have tried was 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe, which lets Terrakion still outspeed Jolly Choice Scarf Excadrill while giving it a little boost to its decent bulk. Not a huge deal, but I've just found that Adamant Terrakion still does a good job of checking most sweepers that I need it to check, and some of the examples that Jolly helps with are uncommon, risky even with a Jolly nature, able to be handled by other checks, or can be played around.
I think this was also brought up before, but I'd like to drop Swords Dance to Set Details of the Stealth Rock set or remove it altogether. It just feels like Stealth Rock + Swords Dance Terrakion is trying to do too much at once, but more importantly, you get shut down much more easily by Aegislash. If Aegislash ends up being banned, I think Swords Dance will work well over Earthquake, but at the moment I'm not so sure. I'd also like to suggest the items be swapped. I've found that Focus Sash works better alongside Taunt since both are great for the lead position against opposing hazard setters. Alternatively, Life Orb is better with Earthquake since the goal of that set is to support the team while also dishing out powerful hits, which I think the Life Orb helps more with. Since Taunt is slashed before Earthquake, I think that the item slot should follow suit with Focus Sash slashed before Life Orb. Or you could just swap the moves instead, either way.
So yeah, that's about all I can think of at the moment. Sorry to keep bringing up Terrakion stuff so often, but I really like it, lol.
minor thing i found: the Kingdra analysis has an EV spread tailored to beat Deo-S. Obviously Deo-S is now banned, so I propose changing the EVs to the spread already mentioned in the Set Details, which is designed to beat ScarfChomp.
There are probably other analyses with similar issues but that was just one i stumbled upon
There are probably other analyses with similar issues but that was just one i stumbled upon
Hm yeah.
Remove CB -- too limiting really, especially with Aegi around, put Iron Head in the last slot of Scarf -- Clefable, flinching, slash Adamant -- Speed isn't /that/ useful and power is useful, SD down to moves of SR -- trying to do too much in one set, realistically isn't getting SR, an SD, then attack to make it worth it, Sash > LO -- guaranteed setup of SR, lets you set up SR and survive any hit, then do something else.
Remove CB -- too limiting really, especially with Aegi around, put Iron Head in the last slot of Scarf -- Clefable, flinching, slash Adamant -- Speed isn't /that/ useful and power is useful, SD down to moves of SR -- trying to do too much in one set, realistically isn't getting SR, an SD, then attack to make it worth it, Sash > LO -- guaranteed setup of SR, lets you set up SR and survive any hit, then do something else.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
the point of SD + SR is absolutely not to sweep.
It's to pressure the opponent's hazard removal, mainly Skarmory. YOu SR as it comes in, then SD as it defogs and you can force the opponent to actually take soe damage rather than just freely defog and wall you. Taunt does well too, except it doesn't do any damage.
If the opponent is using Hippo / Gliscor for their stealth rocks another common play is to switch in on Terrakion as it sets up SR then go for your own. With Swords Dance you can tehn actually deal some damage to these targets before dying rather than them setting up SR healing then beating you.
For ther record I think Taunt is th best on that set, AEgislash laughs at unboosted EQ anyways, it doesnt even 2HKO and that's not factoring in the lefties recovery on KIng's Shield.
It's to pressure the opponent's hazard removal, mainly Skarmory. YOu SR as it comes in, then SD as it defogs and you can force the opponent to actually take soe damage rather than just freely defog and wall you. Taunt does well too, except it doesn't do any damage.
If the opponent is using Hippo / Gliscor for their stealth rocks another common play is to switch in on Terrakion as it sets up SR then go for your own. With Swords Dance you can tehn actually deal some damage to these targets before dying rather than them setting up SR healing then beating you.
For ther record I think Taunt is th best on that set, AEgislash laughs at unboosted EQ anyways, it doesnt even 2HKO and that's not factoring in the lefties recovery on KIng's Shield.
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Hey so I think the current Venu defensive set should be altered slightly...
First of all HP Fire is mandatory. The coverage on Steels, like Ferro/Mawile/Skarm/Mega Scizor is simply too important and useful to pass up. From there, I prefer to run a disruptive move and a STAB move. There are two combos I like: Giga Drain/Knock Off and Leech Seed/Sludge Bomb. First thing is that Giga + Leech is kinda redundant, the point is getting extra recovery and you don't need two moves to do that when your moveslots are valuable. So pick 1 and then pick another move. I don't think I need to explain the value of the moves. Anyways my proposed moveset:
move 1: Synthesis
move 2: Leech Seed / Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Knock Off
Sleep Powder can be slashed somewhere, but I think it's generally suboptimal.
The EV spread should be mixed defensive. SpDef is really appreciated particularly for Keldeo, and needs to be on the set. I usually use 252/64+/192 though I forget exactly what that does, can't remember exactly. Something in that ballpark is what I mean. I'd also give special mention to having a secondary Keldeo check, like Slowbro or Mola or something, because relying on it as a sole check for Keldeo is risky practice from my experience as it isn't that hard to wear down especially with Scald burns and HP Flying doesn't take too much wearing down to 2HKO unless you're running max SpD Calm which is bad.
First of all HP Fire is mandatory. The coverage on Steels, like Ferro/Mawile/Skarm/Mega Scizor is simply too important and useful to pass up. From there, I prefer to run a disruptive move and a STAB move. There are two combos I like: Giga Drain/Knock Off and Leech Seed/Sludge Bomb. First thing is that Giga + Leech is kinda redundant, the point is getting extra recovery and you don't need two moves to do that when your moveslots are valuable. So pick 1 and then pick another move. I don't think I need to explain the value of the moves. Anyways my proposed moveset:
move 1: Synthesis
move 2: Leech Seed / Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Knock Off
Sleep Powder can be slashed somewhere, but I think it's generally suboptimal.
The EV spread should be mixed defensive. SpDef is really appreciated particularly for Keldeo, and needs to be on the set. I usually use 252/64+/192 though I forget exactly what that does, can't remember exactly. Something in that ballpark is what I mean. I'd also give special mention to having a secondary Keldeo check, like Slowbro or Mola or something, because relying on it as a sole check for Keldeo is risky practice from my experience as it isn't that hard to wear down especially with Scald burns and HP Flying doesn't take too much wearing down to 2HKO unless you're running max SpD Calm which is bad.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
so Sharpedo has an analysis up.. I remember discussing this a long time ago, but I think it's time again. Based on the fact that it really struggles vs two huge players in XY OU, Keldeo and Azumarill, total staples of offense leaves its role as a dangerous cleaner vs offense pretty weak. Scolipede seems like its better in almost every way considering that Megahorn makes it stronger too.
Crobat's analysis also found its way into the dex despite universal rejection some months ago
Crobat's analysis also found its way into the dex despite universal rejection some months ago
Why are people suggesting Sleep Talk on CB Talonflme? It is a terrible sleep absorber as it loses prioroty on its Brave Bird when it uses Sleep Talk.
On a side note, it might be a good idea to slash Acrobatics into the fourth slot, or at least give it a moves mention for the revenge killer Talonflame set as Knock Off is everywhere and it is useful for revenge killing highly weakened pokemon without the recoil.
On a side note, it might be a good idea to slash Acrobatics into the fourth slot, or at least give it a moves mention for the revenge killer Talonflame set as Knock Off is everywhere and it is useful for revenge killing highly weakened pokemon without the recoil.
re: sleep talk on talonflame by gamer boy-- it loses priority, sure, but keep in mind that it is a naturally fast mon boasting 351 speed with an adamant nature and max ev's... it switches into the stabs of the most common sporers (breloom [gotta be wary of rock tomb, however] and amoonguss) which makes it a pretty solid sleep absorber. acrobatics is an interesting option, but the most common knock off user, bisharp, almost ohko's band talonflame anyway, and it really wants to maintain its item, so i don't agree with a mention since you often try to avoid knock off.
re: venusaur set posted by Jukain-- i don't find that giga drain and leech seed are redundant by any means. without giga drain, venusaur loses to a few important threats like sub mega gyarados, terrakion, can't break gliscor subs, etc. not quite sure what the slashing should be though. the on site analysis seems fine but slashing knock off instead of sleep powder and relegating powder to moves would be my suggestion.
re: alexwolf-- the ttar thing kinda got ignored. i agree with your set; however, i typically run pursuit as you can still 2hko lati@s and trapping them is just quite good. crunch, of course, is much more reliable but i just /love/ the trapping. it helps teammates out really well and can even do a number to stuff like band talonflame. how do you feel about updating the tyranitar with pursuit as the main slash and crunch as the secondary? i know there are some calcs were crunch is of use, so it may just be my playstyle that dictates this. i give permission to make a new thread and update the set, however, as it is too different to just adjust by scms.
re: Ash Borer disapproving of sharpedo on site: i agree wholeheartedly and agree it is not a viable pokemon in the current ou metagame and can be removed.
re: Agent Gibbs the Terrakion Prince: you seem knowledgable about your changes and i agree with all of them (i lazy posted earlier so i am rehashing my approval). however, i do not believe CB deserves a set as of now, but i would refrain updating terrakion until we find out the result of the upcoming aegislash suspect. i will not comment further on this until the suspect is over. if you could hold off updating terrakion in the mean time, that would be great-- i wouldn't want hard work go to waste if you would have to just re update it in a few weeks.
also, if you guys want my more immediate attention, tagging me would be much obliged if you want a faster answer; sorry if this is a hassle, but i don't check this thread a ton.
thanks for taking the initiative to look over older analyses, everyone
re: venusaur set posted by Jukain-- i don't find that giga drain and leech seed are redundant by any means. without giga drain, venusaur loses to a few important threats like sub mega gyarados, terrakion, can't break gliscor subs, etc. not quite sure what the slashing should be though. the on site analysis seems fine but slashing knock off instead of sleep powder and relegating powder to moves would be my suggestion.
re: alexwolf-- the ttar thing kinda got ignored. i agree with your set; however, i typically run pursuit as you can still 2hko lati@s and trapping them is just quite good. crunch, of course, is much more reliable but i just /love/ the trapping. it helps teammates out really well and can even do a number to stuff like band talonflame. how do you feel about updating the tyranitar with pursuit as the main slash and crunch as the secondary? i know there are some calcs were crunch is of use, so it may just be my playstyle that dictates this. i give permission to make a new thread and update the set, however, as it is too different to just adjust by scms.
re: Ash Borer disapproving of sharpedo on site: i agree wholeheartedly and agree it is not a viable pokemon in the current ou metagame and can be removed.
re: Agent Gibbs the Terrakion Prince: you seem knowledgable about your changes and i agree with all of them (i lazy posted earlier so i am rehashing my approval). however, i do not believe CB deserves a set as of now, but i would refrain updating terrakion until we find out the result of the upcoming aegislash suspect. i will not comment further on this until the suspect is over. if you could hold off updating terrakion in the mean time, that would be great-- i wouldn't want hard work go to waste if you would have to just re update it in a few weeks.
also, if you guys want my more immediate attention, tagging me would be much obliged if you want a faster answer; sorry if this is a hassle, but i don't check this thread a ton.
thanks for taking the initiative to look over older analyses, everyone
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Agreeing with Dice on Pursuit - it almost seems wasteful not to run it on a Pokemon who can Pursuit trap as easily as Tyranitar can.
Dice
Hey, I'd be perfectly fine with removing Choice Band, lol. I just wanted to take things one step at a time and start by moving it to the last set, but if you and Jukain want to remove it altogether, that's perfectly fine by me. I also agree that we should wait until after the Aegislash test, though, as it would obviously cause a lot of changes. The Choice Band set might be a lot better with one of Terrakion's biggest obstacles out of the way, Earthquake would be far less necessary on some sets, and I'm actually looking forward to testing weird stuff like a Swords Dance + STABs + HP Ice set, but that'll be for another day.
By the way, when the time comes to implement changes, will I just need to learn how to use the SCMS to edit the on-site article? Or is there some way I can edit the thread in the Preliminary Pokedex?
Hey, I'd be perfectly fine with removing Choice Band, lol. I just wanted to take things one step at a time and start by moving it to the last set, but if you and Jukain want to remove it altogether, that's perfectly fine by me. I also agree that we should wait until after the Aegislash test, though, as it would obviously cause a lot of changes. The Choice Band set might be a lot better with one of Terrakion's biggest obstacles out of the way, Earthquake would be far less necessary on some sets, and I'm actually looking forward to testing weird stuff like a Swords Dance + STABs + HP Ice set, but that'll be for another day.
By the way, when the time comes to implement changes, will I just need to learn how to use the SCMS to edit the on-site article? Or is there some way I can edit the thread in the Preliminary Pokedex?
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alright I see what you mean about giga + seeds, but I still think HP fire is mandatory because otherwise you can't hit stuff like scizor, ferrothorn, and mawile especially which are pretty important. eq is also fine, hitting heatran too. what do you think of this
move 1: Synthesis
move 2: Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Leech Seed / Knock Off / Sludge Bomb
giga sludge seed means you can't touch a lot of things, imo that moveset is not very good and this is better. gives options for basically anything you could want, giga seeds hp fire, giga knock hp fire, giga sludge hp fire, sludge seeds hp fire...
move 1: Synthesis
move 2: Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Leech Seed / Knock Off / Sludge Bomb
giga sludge seed means you can't touch a lot of things, imo that moveset is not very good and this is better. gives options for basically anything you could want, giga seeds hp fire, giga knock hp fire, giga sludge hp fire, sludge seeds hp fire...
Yeah, Earth Power / Focus Blast / Knock Off / Hidden Power Ice is the best stallrebaking set. It's not as if Psychic is a really needed move anyway, it's just a luxury move to get more damage on Mega Venu, Keldeo, and Talonflame, and a way to reliably hit Rotom-W. All of Psychic's other targets, such as Thundurus, Landorus, Landorus-T, and Gengar, are handled the same or better by Hidden Power Ice and Knock Off.
The talk about defensive Charizard Y in the index thread reminded me of something. I'd like to request that the main set on Moltres's analysis have Will-O-Wisp slashed before Toxic, Roar slashed either before or after Substitute, and the set renamed "Defensive" instead of "SubToxic." SubRoost with Toxic is decent, but I've found that Will-O-Wisp is just way too important to give up sometimes since you kinda need it to safely counter Swords Dance Mega Mawile even if Stealth Rock is still down, as well as to avoid Sucker Punch mindgames (Mega Mawile has a 62.5% chance to OHKO full health Moltres with Sucker Punch at +2 if you go for the Flamethrower). It also helps a lot in beating Bisharp and other random physical attackers that can't do all that much to Moltres. I also really like Roar myself since it lets you put at least a little pressure on Charizard Y (who you can't really do much to without Toxic), but it's not all that important that it becomes the first slash. SubRoost + Will-O-Wisp still works well enough, and you can always just PP stall Charizard Y pretty easily. The main thing is that Will-O-Wisp is more important than Toxic in my experience. You could also mention a more physically defensive spread in Set Details since it does help against make Moltres a fantastic answer to Mega Mawile and helps it more safely take on other physical attackers in general, but it also hurts when facing important targets such as Landorus and Charizard Y.
Jukain brought this up in the OP, but idk if anything has happened to it, so I'd just like to say I'd support TailDance becoming a set, or at least going to OO, on Manaphy it's very useful, as it allows it to get past Chansey + Mega Venusaur. 100/100/100 bulk is very good, even if just invested in HP. It boasts an immunity to status, as well as being able to setup on and defeat Chansey with +6 rain boosted Surfs.
Also, is it just me, or are Other Options and Checks and Counters not on the Strategy Dex?