CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 1 - Closed Concept Assessment

[Da Pizza Man]

I think this post needs more attention. Mega Banette already has tons of things that can leave a presence when/after it faints: Statuses, Destiny Bond, Grudge, Trick (I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, it's an excellent way of causing permanent damage), weathers, all with priority by the way, Trick Room, partial trapping, and the ability to punish foes that keep it alive with that huge Attack stat. Yet it's still in RU. Will creating a CAP that's essentially Mega Banette with the three problems Number mentioned being fixed actually make an impact in OU?

Trick doesn't work because of the mega stone, but yeah I can see where you are going and I can agree with you here.

 

[Mektar]

There are tons of ways we could approach this, but many would not be unique or answer the posed questions. Multiple people have brought up the idea of a CAP that sets field effects, such as weather, which I think is the best route we can take. This would mean that CAP 19 approaches death from a theoretical standpoint (Q1) and would be more of a team player (Q2). The key is that we want to make sure that the CAP cannot take advantage of whatever it's doing on its own while being greatly beneficial to its teammates. In this way, the opponent will want to avoid killing CAP 19 so they can take advantage of the inevitable switch.

For those of you having trouble deciphering how exactly this could work, let's poll-jump a bit with a hypothetical example. Picture us as creating something akin to Shuckle, but with access to Trick Room instead of Power Trick. Trick Room teams would love having access to such a durable 'mon with which they could set up their room reliably. The opponent, as well, prefers to see such a Pokémon, as ShuCAP poses no immediate threat. By fainting ShuCAP after it does its job, they would be exposing themselves to fresh danger in the form of a free switch-in to a powerful sweeper such as Marowak.

The actual condition set could be anything from Hail to Grassy Terrain, the point is that CAP 19 should serve a supporting role, and have a nonthreatening set of offensive or defensive skills. Base Speed, while initially opposed to this concept, reached a conclusion similar to this one. Or, if this idea falls through, DetroitLolcat's seems just as workable, especially if you go look at Ignus' example scenario. If CAP 19 ends up similar to Quagsire in being able to draw out grass types, Talonflame or 'Zard would have easy pickings.

 

[MercuryP]

The idea of a CAP that wants to set up some favourable circumstance and then faint to gain momentum seems like it could create an interesting scenario with Taunt, where it could force the opponent to take it down and then switch to a sweeper. That, or switch and take damage from the inevitable hazard. Either way, seems like an interesting idea.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Einherjar, we want to dissuade our opponent from fainting CAP19 and(or) leave its impact on the battlefield after death. I would like us to try and explore the first part of the concept, as it is a far more interesting and complicated and we would probably create . A lot of this post is going to be my own rambling, but I hope that it at least provides food for thought.

My first thoughts were that to dissuade our opponent from eliminating CAP19, it would mean that it has to be the last pokemon standing on our team. In order to do that our opponent is going to have to force CAP out quite frequently. Initially, I thought a frail set up sweeper could be the way to go with this, this would enable our opponent to check/counter CAP and remove force us to switch, especially if it requires a boost to pull off manageable damage.
The problem with creating this is that CAP would effectively give the opponent momentum for the most part of the game, and obviously it doesn't leave a lasting effect after its death. In short, it wouldn't achieve what the concept set out to do.

This brings me to my next thought, status effects, stat drops, and moves of similar kin to grudge, these would leave a lasting effect on the battlefield, but it doesn't really dissuade the opponent from eliminating CAP, only serves to push the opponent to remove it so they escape with the least amount of problems. If there was a way to marry the two ideas, it would be fantastic, but Pokemon only have four move slots and it wouldn't be feasible to create a mon that simultaneously functions as a sweeper and a support pokemon. It would be far too easy to remove once the moveset has been scouted out.

Now a lot of people are mentioning hazards, while those do fulfill the second aspect of the concept in leaving a lasting effect. However, I have to stress that any hazard setter is rushed to be taken out, thereby it would not mesh that well with the concept - ultimately we'd just create another suicide lead.
I also think we need to stay away from sacrificial moves such as healing wish and memento since they're self inflicted and this concept is all about creating a pokemon that the opponent can't recklessly remove from battle; the opponent would have no control over the usage of these moves.


Anyway, on to the questions DarkSlay posed;

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

I think a combination of both are necessary for CAP to achieve the concept; if possible when it faints it should leave the opposing pokemon in a somehow vulnerable state and allow CAP's team to gain momentum. Destiny Bond has been spoken of, however as a couple have nicely pointed out it causes a double blind switch and may or may not have a beneficial result for CAP's team. At low health Prankster feather dance or fake tears would almost serve as a pseudo-memento, allowing a pokemon to start setting up. Which brings us to the next question.

• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

CAP19 certainly requires some form of partnership, maybe globally with any set-up sweeper or with a specific pokemon.

• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

It can be both! As far as grabbing momentum goes anyway, it's possible to hinder an opposing pokemon, again, priority featherdance/fake tears and faint causing CAP's team member to come in and begin setting up.

• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

I don't have the answers to these questions, however I think it's important to note that we HAVE to make sure the when CAP19 faints our team is in a far better position than it would be if any of our other pokemon faints.

• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

Thundurus deserves a mention as it is a pokemon I think we need to emulate and improve upon it to achieve our objective. Thundurus has prankster and a decent array of support moves to utilise such as, thunder wave, toxic, taunt, combined with offensive presence off a respectable 125 sp.att and access to Nasty Plot. It's clear that it can cause lasting problems to the opposing team after it's been eliminated, however Thundurus doesn't have any deterrent to prevent it from being fainted

TL;DR (and some extra)
We need to create a pokemon that cannot be recklessly eliminated and also leaves a lasting effect on the field, personal preference in the form of status or stat drops.
Good offensive presence is required or else it would be far to easy for the opponent to eliminate CAP19. Typing and movepool needs to be well thought out to achieve this, if 19 can take care of a number of the top threats in OU then it would be dissuaded from being eliminated so easily.
Thundurus is an interested pokemon to look toward for inspiration because of the way it functions in both the offensive and supportive sides of the spectrum.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I want to comment on the role that hazards, status, and other long-lived effects should interact with our interpretation of this concept.

The central theme of this concept, in a single word, is FAINTING. This concept is setting the stage for CAP to do a detailed analysis and experiment in how a pokemon fainting has impact on battles. When all is said and done, and we look back on CAP 19, if we do it right -- this will be the CAP project about fainting. Why it faints, why the opponent may or not faint it, what happens when it faints, and what happens after it faints. But the singular act of fainting -- predicted, intended and actual -- should be a significant discussion point of almost every post and thread from here on out. There really hasn't been much detailed strategic analysis of fainting in pokemon, which is the big reason I am so excited about breaking that ground here in the CAP project.

This concept is not about hazards and status. I'm not saying we won't give CAP 19 hazard/status moves/abilities or hazard/status removal moves/abilities. They may end up being a massive part of how we make this pokemon. But things like hazards and status are already a huge part of the game, and all battlers can easily understand them and discuss them in strategic detail. It is so easy to discuss hazards and status, compared to the subtle unexplored territory of fainting -- that I fear we might end up getting sidetracked into thinking a hazards/status mon is equivalent to a mon that emphasizes the strategic element of fainting in battle. It doesn't.

A mon that can create or remove hazards or status can certainly have an impact on battle after it faints -- but the act of fainting rarely has anything to do with the hazards or status, and we shouldn't assume that hazards and status are intrinsically linked to fainting strategy. Some comments in this thread seem to indicate that if CAP 19 can lay down a hazard that lasts after it dies, that we automatically are experimenting with fainting. That is not true. If the pokemon is built such that it must literally or effectively "suicide" most of the time in order to create/remove the hazard/status -- then yeah, we're dealing with a fainting strategy. But if we create a typical balanced OU pokemon and give it Twave or Stealth Rock or Defog or whatever -- we aren't dealing with fainting. We just made yet another support mon.

I'm torn over how ambitious we should get with this thing. On the one hand, I don't want to do a brain-dead obvious concept interpretation like the ultimate Destiny Bond abuser or a bog-standard suicide lead. But I also don't want us to get so clever that we end up with a boutique direction that requires us to be overly precise in every step of the project in order for this to be understandable and useful in the end. My guess is that we will need to have some key moves and or abilities that are directly, mechanically linked to fainting (think Destiny Bond, Grudge, Healing Wish, Aftermath, etc.). If we don't do that, we aren't going to be experimenting with fainting at all. But we have to give ourselves something more than just that key move and/or ability. We need a battle plan or team plan too. That's what will pull this thing together and make it a CAP experiment worthy of the chosen concept.

 

[nyttyn]

IMO, we should focus CAP19 towards the role of a bulky status spreader/debuffer. While the role of a debuffer isn't something we've seen in OU for a long, long time, a good example would be FeatherDance Murkrow - it's a mon that's stupidly hard to kill, forcing you to switch time after time again, and resulting in your mons all being weakened and vulnerable to 2HKOs and OHKOs that would otherwise be 3HKOs and 2HKOs. Not to mention all the thunder waves it could potentially throw out, leaving your team a lot slower. And you didn't want to kill it right away, because if you did another mon would come in and take advantage of your vastly weakened attacker - but at the same time, if you didn't kill it, it would keep racking up phase damage and paralyzes.

Thus, why I think bulky status spreading + debuffing would be a great role for our mon to take. It would allow it to have a lasting effect in both the chip damage from Stealth Rock, as well as the statuses that are placed on the opposing team. While Wish Passing and Clerics can counter one or the other, they cannot hope to handle both easily, thus ensuring CAP19 has an effect no matter waht. And by adding in debuff moves as well, we dissuade the opponent from wanting to faint it, as another mon can come in and take advantage of the situation. Even then, if they try to BS around fainting it, they will still have to deal with chip damage from phasing, as well as status being slapped on every mon that tries to show its face.

 

[Absol_]

For a broader look on an impression after you KO CAP 19, I decided hazards were too general and most suicide leads already pull this off when they are still standing. I thought the best way to make a creative impression is some sort of Leech Seed effect, and the possibility that the new Pokemon gets a stat boost of some sort. If you look at it that way, CAP 19 would be a trap for teams to challenge, as if they knock it out, things aren't going to go well. Quick, strong attackers like Greninja aren't gonna be too happy when they find the opponent switches into CAP 19. It really forces the opponent to think what they have to do to win. Do they send out a weaker Pokemon that won't be very useful in the match-up to take the heat of of the "KO Requiem" as I'll call it, or a bulky Pokemon that will do well? The biggest threat CAP 19 will place is confusion for your opponent, leading to very strategic plays from both sides. So basically, CAP 19 would be a huge threat for teams to conquer.

On to the questions!

• What is the difference between tangible results of fainting (hazards, raw damage, etc.) and theoretical results of fainting (team opportunities, loss of momentum, added stress, etc.)? Which of these are most important when discussing CAP 19's goals?

To answer this, I think I will take a look at a Pokemon like Cloyster, whose trademark is Shell Smashing, Spikes, Spinning and Spearin'. If Cloyster were to faint, but had set up spikes first, it would mean the opponent has to go out of their way to try and remove them, so you have the opportunity to possibly get a free KO if they Spin or Defog, in which both don't do much offensively. Or, if Cloyster were to damage the opponent, it would make the KO better for the next Pokemon. This means tangible results of fainting can hinder a team if they don't have the right defense. Next is the easy part, theoretical results. Personally, I think it simply represents one of two things, one, you either set up well and your Pokemon did its job, or you lost your matchup against a Pokemon. For instance, I use Cloyster on my main team, and whenever it gets KO'd, sometimes I say, "I think I needed Cloyster for his Landorus!" etc. So theoretical results could be satisfying for your match or devastating, depending on the match-up. I think CAP 19 fits more into theoretical results, with the description of CAP 19 fit more with, "I knocked out CAP 19, oh boy..." because the effect would benefit your side or debilitate the opponent.

• How important are the other five Pokemon when it comes to losing a Pokemon? Should CAP 19 accomplish its goal as an individual entity, or as a member of its team?

Simple! The other 5 Pokemon need to pull off strategic hits in order to patch the hole the KO'd Pokemon fit in to. CAP 19 should be part of your team rather than individual because whatever KO'ing CAP 19 does, it isn't going to be good for the opponent. Going back to my "KO Requiem" idea, the other Pokemon are going to want that bonus when sweeping/phazing/spinblocking/walling/etc.

• Is it more about the opponent being hindered by a Pokemon fainting directly, or is it more about your team benefiting from your Pokemon fainting? Can it be both? How?

Sure it can be both! Another easy question, because we already have leech seed, making the opponent think more than act, so misplays would be common. Think about Leech Seed. Your Talonflame is doing fine against this Mega Venusaur... and... Leech Seed. Now what do you do? Switch into Tyranitar and get residual damage out, and then switch back into Talonflame? Sure! And then comes the Talonflame counter! You may not even have a response. It's difficult to deal with something like Leech Seed, and it would be extremely difficult to deal with Leech Seed + Helping Hand, or anything like that.

• How is it possible to discourage the opponent from fainting a Pokemon? Can this be a constant result from a Pokemon fainting, or is it situational depending on what players (re: Pokemon) are involved?

I'll have to admit, this was hard to understand at first. I think this means what strategy would be used with CAP 19. Luckily, I've already addressed this, as with whatever Pokemon you use next, it will get something good out of CAP 19's KO, so the opponent should definitely be wary. Now, this is only a educated guess of what it means, so if anyone wants to elaborate on the subject, feel free to do so.

• With these questions being discussed, what is the best overall avenue for us to pursue, as a community, CAP 19?

Simply put, CAP 19 should definitely revolve around being a trap, but isn't so overpowered that it breaks the metagame.

... Wobbuffet 2.0, anyone?


No?

 

[FMD]

I feel that a Pokemon that is deliberately made to be hard to kill is entirely anti-concept. It is taking the choice out of the opponents' hands and putting it almost solely in those of the CAP 19 user. You could argue that because they can't take out the CAP that they would choose to switch to the next Pokemon, but that's just a thinly veiled fallacy. If they were able to kill the CAP, they would choose to do so every single time. It doesn't matter whether you are attempting to accomplish this with deuffs or status, it just will not be pro concept because the entire strategy just makes the opponent wish to kill it that much more. Such a route as this should be considered to be a legitimate way to fulfill the given concept in not any way, shape nor form.

Instead, I would like to bring discussion of a proposition that has been discussed in great depth within IRC whilst being entirely unexplored in this thread: weather. It leaves a lasting, and yet somehow fleeting, affect on the battlefield with little effort and such an effect can be extremely tangible. The majority of us have seen the effects that weather can have on sweepers in the past, having played OU in the past generation. Sweepers such as Kingdra and Venusaur were used almost entirely due to weather's effect. We have seen the death of this strategy as a result of the changes which Gamefreak has put in place; weather is no longer a permanent effect and thus has a greatly lessened chance of being properly abused. Now the Pokemon must take advantage of weather immediately for it to be of any use. Where other Pokemon have lost viability due to the new duration of weather abilities, our concept finds foothold. Killing the weather setter immediately would provide its team with a free switch into their weather sweeper. For the opposing team, it would be much more beneficial to delay killing a weather setter as to lessen the extent to which the CAP's partners may abuse the weather provided. Situations in which one's opponent is made to choose between giving a free switch or taking a hit to lessen their losses, it would theoretically be preferable to make a minor sacrifice rather than to take a major risk.

 

[DarkSlay]

It's been about 24 hours, so I suppose now's a good time for the Topic Leader to give some thoughts on the discussions being brought up in this thread, and which ideas I think are good for what we should be looking for in a direction for CAP 19 (and, subsequently, which ideas are bad).

First off, I want to make this clear before I go on with my individual comments: the Concept Assessment stage is about discussing potential roles and ideas for CAP 19 to carry out, NOT about specific moves, stats, or abilities. It is absolutely okay to talk about these things, but they must be discussed in a greater context. By bringing up individual moves, you are suggesting that the concept should be about those moves rather than just the concept benefiting from those moves. Keep that in mind as you are posting in this topic.

Also, there is an inherent difference between discouraging an opponent from fainting a Pokemon and discouraging an opponent from attacking a Pokemon. We're looking at the former, which is a more permanent effect of attacking a Pokemon, rather than the later. A Pokemon you don't necessarily want to attack head-on with attacking moves is not a Pokemon you don't want to knock out. See: Ferrothorn.

Now, for some thoughts on what's been brought up so far (and yes, color-coded responses are definitely the best, thanks for agreeing with me!):

Hazard Users and Suicide Leads are fairly anti-concept, and are a direction that I don't think we should be going in at all. Like some have already discussed, hazards only somewhat address the concept's goal of leaving a lasting impact from CAP 19 after its removal, but it is by no means a consistent way, nor does it attempt to address the goal of the concept trying to discourage opposing Pokemon from KO'ing it in some capacity. In fact, teams usually want to remove hazard setters as soon as possible, so that there is no threat later on in the match of Stealth Rock or Spikes after removal. I don't want us going down this route for our concept.

Likewise, Status Spreaders have similar issues as Hazard Users in that their role addresses one part of the concept but not the other. Furthermore, status can also be removed by a cleric AND can be played around with if a Pokemon on the opposing team is already statused, thus limiting the impact status moves have on Pokemon after CAP 19 faints greatly. I'm not seeing it.

Destiny Bond, as a concept, has the exact opposite issue as the two directions above. It does offer some sort of way to make your opponent not want to outright faint you, but the lasting effect a Pokemon whose goal is to abuse Destiny Bond is rather minimal. Yes, eliminating an opposing Pokemon is a game-lasting effect. However, there is really no different between this and just attacking an opponent for a KO outright. Both force some sort of fear into the opponent, and both forces switches. Destiny Bond should be viewed as a tool that can be useful later in this concept's lifespan (Movepool discussions), but I see no benefit in making the conceptual direction center around Destiny Bond. Grudge is the same way, but is ultimately just a worse move.

Now, here are two directions that I think we should be going in:

Field Effects are an interesting case, but not all field effects would be useful for an OU concept. I don't think any of the Terrain moves are competitively viable, so we'll put them aside. Likewise, things like Trick Room and Tailwind have useful effects but are somewhat limited in what support they give teammates, plus are extremely limited and don't offer the additional benefits other field effects offered. This direction would really benefit from Weather. Weather is a bit taboo of a subject due to Gen V's mechanics, but be fully aware that weather is a fairly balanced playstyle at the moment and I have zero issue with discussing it in this thread. The way players operate against modern weather teams have changed drastically, and the turns that weather supplies in terms of support have become a rare commodity. Weather meets both goals of the concept as well: weather is a tangible entity that gives support to teammates even after death AND weather starters hinder opponents from KO'ing them, as the faster a weather starter is knocked out (especially late-game), the more turns a partner has to sweep or set up. There are more points to this that I have in my head, but I'd rather these points come up naturally through discussion rather than just me throwing out my ideas. I want more discussion on this.

The other direction is somewhat similar, but as a more universal understanding, in a Lure. Especially in the later portions of the game (but even in middle portions), lures often draw out certain Pokemon for either itself or its teammates. It can either take care of the threat itself through an odd move or can allow a teammate to switch in and deal with it. However, in regards to this concept, a Pokemon that has an exploitable weakness and can be KO'd in order to allow a partner to set up seems to be the best way of going about a Lure. This would mean that the individual Pokemon should not have the means of directly taking out the opposing Pokemon, but rather takes care of a specific set of Pokemon while being walled by a completely different set. This would play with the notion of a reliable switch-in not wanting to KO CAP 19 for fear of a free set-up opportunity or sweep. This is something I'd also like to see discussed to a greater extent.

 

[nyttyn]

Likewise, Status Spreaders have similar issues as Hazard Users in that their role addresses one part of the concept but not the other. Furthermore, status can also be removed by a cleric AND can be played around with if a Pokemon on the opposing team is already statused, thus limiting the impact status moves have on Pokemon after CAP 19 faints greatly. I'm not seeing it.

Darkslay, I'm not really seeing the problem here. If you have to switch to a cleric, or if you have to play around it by continually switching (and thus being penalized with switch damage/luring in mons), then CAP19's player can correspondingly abuse that fact. And if they manage to swap in their cleric for free and cure the status, so be it, everything's countered in some way.

We can also, y'know, be a bulky Status/Debuff Shuffler. Chip Damage is very important in pokemon, and is not very easy to handle. Plus, by setting up our Shuffler to either apply Burns, which would lure in a specific type of mon (Special attackers/Fire Physicals), or by setting them up to apply specific debuffs (to atk or spatk), we can easily discourage KOing CAP 19 - at least, with a specific mon, allowing CAP 19 to continue shuffling and racking up chip damage which, again, leaves a lasting effect that's rather hard to counter.

 

[jumpluff]

While weather obviously fulfils the criteria of lasting impact, I have two principal concerns with using this to fulfil the concept, which are easier to float as questions:

1. We already have automatic weather starters. What bothers me about this is that (for some weathers moreso than others) teams could take two automatic weather starters, especially if both starters act doubly as enablers and abusers. This likelihood distorts the scenario in that a) the individual value of CAP19 changes dramatically, depending on which role it plays b) more importantly, the 'lasting effect' is not something unique to CAP19 but can be prolonged by a teammate.

I don't know if this is inherently bad, but I'd like people to consider the psychological scenarios that come into play when dealing with specific weather setters, and how that is affected by the role(s) the specific setter plays (support, defensive, offensive, abusive). I also don't know if point b) is inherently antithetical to the concept, because while strategic fainting is an issue of opportunity cost, will adding another variable detract from our ability to learn? Is it relevant that if we have two weather setters, one is typically more important than the other, and how would both players change their moves knowing there's a second weather setter (specifically: the impetus to get one out of the way ASAP so it can't set more weather or wasting weather turns)? Is it truly the lasting impact of CAP19 and its sacrifice that matters if it has backup, or is the momentum a (potentially suicidal) weather setter gains still a worthy contribution?

2. What interests me most about fainting as a strategic choice is that it is primarily used to gain momentum, and if KOing or not KOing a specific Pokémon (ignoring Destiny Bond or situations where you could die from recoil or Iron Barbs, etc.) is ever a dilemma, its essence is a struggle for momentum. I find the idea of designing a lure that works most effectively when it dies compelling for that reason too. I worry, in the context of concern 1, if we make a weather setter people will want to keep it alive and we may not learn much about fainting, although we can keep this in mind how we build it, because the way we play weather setters depends on the build and what other roles they fill in their team, and how vital it is to keep the weather going consistently vs. get an abuser in straight away.

Sorry if this isn't coherent.

 

[alexwolf]

Weather meets both goals of the concept as well: weather is a tangible entity that gives support to teammates even after death AND weather starters hinder opponents from KO'ing them, as the faster a weather starter is knocked out (especially late-game), the more turns a partner has to sweep or set up.

A weather inducer absolutely doesn't in any way discourage the opponent from KOing it. The faster you KO the opponent's weather inducer the better it is, because you will have to deal with weather sweepers for 7 turns maximum. It seems weird you believe that weather inducers discourage the opponent from KOing them when you already addressed how hazard users don't discourage the opponent from KOing them, because the faster you deal with the hazard setter, the faster you will be able to permanently get rid of the hazards. It's the same with weather inducers, and even more actually, as weather inducers are the single most important kind of Pokemon to keep alive.

Using a status spreader with some way to punish a group of Pokemon for KOing it (Aftermath, Rough Skin, Destiny Bond) seems as the best direction. Of course, a supporting role is the best one to do this, plus we can also include moves such as Healing Wish and Memento this way.

 

[jas61292]

A weather inducer absolutely doesn't in any way discourage the opponent from KOing it. The faster you KO the opponent's weather inducer the better it is, because you will have to deal with weather sweepers for 7 turns maximum. It seems weird you believe that weather inducers discourage the opponent from KOing them when you already addressed how hazard users don't discourage the opponent from KOing them, because the faster you deal with the hazard setter, the faster you will be able to permanently get rid of the hazards. It's the same with weather inducers, and even more actually, as weather inducers are the single most important kind of Pokemon to keep alive.

I actually completely disagree with this. In fact it is very easy to think of an example where you do not want to KO the opponents weather starter, or more correctly, you don't want to KO them as fast as you can.

Take this situation for example: You have 4 Pokemon left, all pretty weak. Your opponent currently has left a Tyranitar and a Sand Rush Excadrill. The Pokemon you currently have out is a Keldeo at around 50%. There are 5 turns of sand remaining. If Excadrill gets in by next turn, it will clean sweep you. However, it cannot switch into Keldeo. As such, it is to your advantage NOT to Secret Sword and destroy Tyranitar. Since, baring a Crit, Tyranitar is unlikely to KO you, using another move, say, Scald, and not KOing is more to your advantage. That way, once you KO it the following turn, there will only be enough turns left for Exca to take out 3 of your Pokemon, letting you finish it off and win the battle after sand is gone.

Obviously something like this is mostly a late game scenario, but it is still incredibly relevant. By going for the KO on the weather starter as fast as you can, you would only guarantee your own loss. The fact that weather setters are (baring Mega Char Y) less threatening with their weather than many other abusers means that stalling with the setter in before killing them prevents your opponent from having the time to abuse the weather later. I think that a Pokemon who can set weather, but can't really abuse it directly, and is not really all that hard to KO could very easily create a scenario where it becomes advantageous for your opponent to let it live, while at the same time providing large benefits even if it is KOd. This is one of the few ways that I can really see us accomplishing both sides of the concept.

 

[alexwolf]

I actually completely disagree with this. In fact it is very easy to think of an example where you do not want to KO the opponents weather starter, or more correctly, you don't want to KO them as fast as you can.

Take this situation for example: You have 4 Pokemon left, all pretty weak. Your opponent currently has left a Tyranitar and a Sand Rush Excadrill. The Pokemon you currently have out is a Keldeo at around 50%. There are 5 turns of sand remaining. If Excadrill gets in by next turn, it will clean sweep you. However, it cannot switch into Keldeo. As such, it is to your advantage NOT to Secret Sword and destroy Tyranitar. Since, baring a Crit, Tyranitar is unlikely to KO you, using another move, say, Scald, and not KOing is more to your advantage. That way, once you KO it the following turn, there will only be enough turns left for Exca to take out 3 of your Pokemon, letting you finish it off and win the battle after sand is gone.

Obviously something like this is mostly a late game scenario, but it is still incredibly relevant. By going for the KO on the weather starter as fast as you can, you would only guarantee your own loss. The fact that weather setters are (baring Mega Char Y) less threatening with their weather than many other abusers means that stalling with the setter in before killing them prevents your opponent from having the time to abuse the weather later. I think that a Pokemon who can set weather, but can't really abuse it directly, and is not really all that hard to KO could very easily create a scenario where it becomes advantageous for your opponent to let it live, while at the same time providing large benefits even if it is KOd. This is one of the few ways that I can really see us accomplishing both sides of the concept.

This is an extremely specific scenario, and as you already said works only during the late-game. I can list a lot of scenarios where the opponent would want to KO the inducer, in order to have to deal with as less turns of weather as possible. So unless you want us to build the CAP trying to somehow emulate those very specific situations, the fact is that the vast majority of the time the opponent will want to KO the inducer as fast as possible.

Not to mention that Tyranitar, Mega Zard Y, Hippo, and Politoed all have a ton of combined usage, and against any team with those Pokemon you will want your inducer alive as long as possible.

 

[NumberCruncher]

This direction would really benefit from Weather. Weather is a bit taboo of a subject due to Gen V's mechanics, but be fully aware that weather is a fairly balanced playstyle at the moment and I have zero issue with discussing it in this thread. The way players operate against modern weather teams have changed drastically, and the turns that weather supplies in terms of support have become a rare commodity. Weather meets both goals of the concept as well: weather is a tangible entity that gives support to teammates even after death AND weather starters hinder opponents from KO'ing them, as the faster a weather starter is knocked out (especially late-game), the more turns a partner has to sweep or set up. There are more points to this that I have in my head, but I'd rather these points come up naturally through discussion rather than just me throwing out my ideas. I want more discussion on this.

I have a few hang-ups on using Weather as the gimmick for this Pokemon. To show why, let's look at the last pokemon that effectively built itself exclusively to set Weather and die instantly, from early in Diamond and Pearl era.

Froslass

Set: Hail Lead
Move 1: Hail
Move 2: Spikes
Move 3: Desinty Bond
Move 4: Blizzard
Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 SdD
Nature: Timid

The main problem with something like Froslass now it that there are so many bulky Pokemon now that Hail will fall off before you really get all the benefit you need
from it. At that point, you won't have your Hail setter anymore, so you basically burnt a Pokemon away for nothing. This is why people usually want bulky Weather setters. However, once the idea of the Weather setter setting up Weather multiple times comes into the equation, the opponent absolutely wants to kill it no questions asked. So either you have to make the Pokemon too frail to be useful or too bulky for the opponent to even conceive letting it live, which flies in the face of trying to make a meta viable Pokemon that the opponent doesn't want to kill.

 

[Deck Knight]

At issue here is the fact we have a concept about fainting and fainting is by definition what you do not want to happen to any Pokemon on your team. Every team's analysis of fainting is the same: Faint the opponent before they faint you. Whether this is done through slow torture like Stall or offensive overkill like FlySPAM, the object is the same. Fainting your opponent first wins the game.

Therefore I think the question becomes, do we want an effective Pokemon or an ineffective Pokemon? Since this is CAP we obviously trend towards building effective Pokemon. We also want a lasting effect, and unfortunately, the best lasting effects are also the most well known - hazards, status, and sacrifice moves like Destiny Bond.

We do not need to agonize over this like we will find some great truth about fainting. By definition having this Pokemon faint to open it up for another Pokemon *precludes* this Pokemon from being the center of this concept. If I might make another radical proposal, why don't we actually pick a partner (or partners, max 3) for which an opponent fainting CAP 19 would explicitly be designed to set up with the "free" turn after CAP 19 faints and sets up the proper conditions? This was mentioned earlier, but without it being a concrete arrangement its nothing more than building a Pokemon designed to faint in a vacuum.

 

[jas61292]

This is an extremely specific scenario, and as you already said works only during the late-game. I can list a lot of scenarios where the opponent would want to KO the inducer, in order to have to deal with as less turns of weather as possible. So unless you want us to build the CAP trying to somehow emulate those very specific situations, the fact is that the vast majority of the time the opponent will want to KO the inducer as fast as possible.

Not to mention that Tyranitar, Mega Zard Y, Hippo, and Politoed all have a ton of combined usage, and against any team with those Pokemon you will want your inducer alive as long as possible.

I feel like you are a bit missing the point with what I said. My situation was specific, but it was not niche. The important part of what I said was the fact that inducers are generally less threatening than abusers. At any given point in the game, removing an inducer is a good thing. However, the weather doesn't go away. How good this removal really is depends on what happens afterwards. It's wonderful to take out your opponents Politoed, but if the incoming Swift Swimmer takes out three of your Pokemon before the rain ends, how big of a victory was it really? Would it have been better to let it live a turn longer so that they would not have that time to sweep?

Frequently, the answer to this might be yes. However, I don't think it would be all that often. But that is not because this is not a scenario that comes up that often, but rather it is a scenario where the Politoed player benefits from keeping it alive longer too. By making something less able to abuse its own weather, and more able to be taken out quickly, while still providing enough general utility to be a good choice, the scenarios where you have to choose if KOing is good will come up more often.

 

[ginganinja]

The other direction is somewhat similar, but as a more universal understanding, in a Lure.

O.k, I am going on record saying that I love lures, and think they are utterly awesome to create, as well as use. That said, I don't think it will be useful for a key reason.

Lures work best when they are unexpected, when you don't prepare for them. You had Shuca Icy Wind Jirachi back in BW that functioned in a similar manner to this. It was designed to lure in many ground types, and dispose of them while matching up well against standard "leads". That said, we are CREATING a CAP. If we decide to have this CAP want to lure in, say, Heatran, or Skarmory, when we get to the playtest, no-one will actually bring in these mons, because the entire purpose of a lure is to catch things by surprise. Making a "lure" set "standard", means that by definition, you are less effective at luring, since the surprise value is lost, and no-one is stupid enough to switch in a mon the entire concept was built around luring in.

Sure, you can get around this by creating a "standard" set, and then giving said CAP a few moves so it can "switch it up", to beat its counters. This has more viability since you are not 100% built around being a lure, merely something that is good at X and then changes a move to become lure set X to lure in Z. That said, then you have issues with some of the "Top Tier" pokemon, which could all do this to such an extent that most of them have either been banned, or are currently heavily involved in suspect tests. Sure, going this route is possible I guess, but you still cannot publically build around the "lure" idea, and you really, really have to be careful that you are not giving said CAP enormous leeway in getting past its counters to such an extent that it becomes unhealthy.

This direction would really benefit from Weather.

Quick point, after chatting about this over IRC, for something like a weather inducer to really "work", you need a weather sweeper to be worthy of making that sacrifice. Lets be clear, if you have a suicide weather inducer, or something that dies to get weather up as per concept, you are down one mon. You are therefore hoping that your weather sweeper can not only even the score, but to put the score in your favour. You are giving up 2 teamslots, a moveslot, and an item slot, just in a two person core, JUST to get this pokemon running (this is ignoring most weather teams need a backup weather setter anyway) which is a huge amount of support. The only pokemon in my mind that has the potential to make this support "worth it", would probably be something like Kabutops which isn't destroyed by the flying priority that is everyone, or ES, although obviously there is some common priority out there that still handles it, so its not a perfect choice even then. I don't doubt we could make an effective weather setter, something like that isn't hard. However, it has to be "worth it", to run this teamstyle, and I really don't think there are enough abusers out there in any weather to make such a CAP worth it, especially when you have existing perma weather inducers that are more effective while being less suicidal.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I feel like you are a bit missing the point with what I said. My situation was specific, but it was not niche. The important part of what I said was the fact that inducers are generally less threatening than abusers. At any given point in the game, removing an inducer is a good thing. However, the weather doesn't go away. How good this removal really is depends on what happens afterwards. It's wonderful to take out your opponents Politoed, but if the incoming Swift Swimmer takes out three of your Pokemon before the rain ends, how big of a victory was it really? Would it have been better to let it live a turn longer so that they would not have that time to sweep?

Frequently, the answer to this might be yes. However, I don't think it would be all that often. But that is not because this is not a scenario that comes up that often, but rather it is a scenario where the Politoed player benefits from keeping it alive longer too. By making something less able to abuse its own weather, and more able to be taken out quickly, while still providing enough general utility to be a good choice, the scenarios where you have to choose if KOing is good will come up more often.

Um the problem with most of the situations(Other than the example you gave) was that you never said it wasn't safe for the opponent just to switch into their weather sweeper? And I dont know about you but if my weather setter was in danger I would get it out of there asap, so if its ran correctly it wont be fainting anyways

 

[NumberCruncher]

We do not need to agonize over this like we will find some great truth about fainting. By definition having this Pokemon faint to open it up for another Pokemon *precludes* this Pokemon from being the center of this concept. If I might make another radical proposal, why don't we actually pick a partner (or partners, max 3) for which an opponent fainting CAP 19 would explicitly be designed to set up with the "free" turn after CAP 19 faints and sets up the proper conditions? This was mentioned earlier, but without it being a concrete arrangement its nothing more than building a Pokemon designed to faint in a vacuum.

I don't mind this idea, but I think some people are going to start seeing this as Volkraken Jr. (or Voodoom III if you want to go back that far), and with Volkraken having been such a recent CAP, I see this proposal turning people off to the idea. Personally, I see a bunch of good pokemon that would love to come in against a weakened Pokemon (Moxie Pokemon being the best examples) or Encored Pokemon (anything with a resistance to the move being used).

 

[jas61292]

Um the problem with most of the situations(Other than the example you gave) was that you never said it wasn't safe for the opponent just to switch into their weather sweeper? And I dont know about you but if my weather setter was in danger I would get it out of there asap, so if its ran correctly it wont be fainting anyways

Actually, that is kinda exactly what I was saying. Obviously this is not always the case, but it frequently is, since abusers often share weaknesses with the inducers. Switching directly to many sweeper style abusers is not really possible directly from inducers because of this, without a KO to give the free switch.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Grudge is the same way, but is ultimately just a worse move.

Why? I don't mind people disagreeing with my analysis of Grudge, but there really oughtta be, like, some reasoning. Because I think getting a free switch-in and, if you play your cards right, transforming what was once a counter into setup bait for the rest of the match, is pretty special.

Also, whenever we get tired of nuanced discussion, we can always just abandon all subtlety and make a Scrappy mon with insane speed, huge HP, resistance to common priority attacks, and Final Gambit.

 

[Deck Knight]

Why? I don't mind people disagreeing with my analysis of Grudge, but there really oughtta be, like, some reasoning. Because I think getting a free switch-in and, if you play your cards right, transforming what was once a counter into setup bait for the rest of the match, is pretty special.

Also, whenever we get tired of nuanced discussion, we can always just abandon all subtlety and make a Scrappy mon with insane speed, huge HP, resistance to common priority attacks, and Final Gambit.

Grudge drains the PP of one move, specifically if you use it first and a damaging attack KOs you. It doesn't work on residual damage.
Destiny Bond faints the opponent, effectively removing the PP of all their moves. It too doesn't work on residual damage, but it will prevent all of an opponents moves from being used by virtue of fainting them.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Grudge drains the PP of one move, specifically if you use it first and a damaging attack KOs you. It doesn't work on residual damage.
Destiny Bond faints the opponent, effectively removing the PP of all their moves. It too doesn't work on residual damage, but it will prevent all of an opponents moves from being used by virtue of fainting them.

First off, mechanically, I'm fairly certain Grudge works until you make another move, just like DB; so, for instance, if you survive a hit from a faster mon and then use Grudge, and the enemy attacks again, that move's PP disappears.

Second off, again, the issue is that Destiny Bond leads to a double-blind switch, whereas Grudge allows for a more reliable momentum shift by crippling the KOing mon and letting you set up. In that sense it's like Memento, but done right, the opposing counter is permanently crippled instead of getting off with a debuff that goes away on a switch.

Even if Grudge isn't the answer, I feel like Destiny Bond's problem (beyond having been done already with M Banette) is this momentum issue. The lasting effect of taking out an opposing mon is something every attacker can do, and they don't usually have to die doing it. But the lasting effect of shifting momentum, of giving you opportunities beyond what you'd normally get when a team member faints, is what we should aim for here.

 

[Deck Knight]

First off, mechanically, I'm fairly certain Grudge works until you make another move, just like DB; so, for instance, if you survive a hit from a faster mon and then use Grudge, and the enemy attacks again, that move's PP disappears.

Second off, again, the issue is that Destiny Bond leads to a double-blind switch, whereas Grudge allows for a more reliable momentum shift by crippling the KOing mon and letting you set up. In that sense it's like Memento, but done right, the opposing counter is permanently crippled instead of getting off with a debuff that goes away on a switch.

Even if Grudge isn't the answer, I feel like Destiny Bond's problem (beyond having been done already with M Banette) is this momentum issue. The lasting effect of taking out an opposing mon is something every attacker can do, and they don't usually have to die doing it. But the lasting effect of shifting momentum, of giving you opportunities beyond what you'd normally get when a team member faints, is what we should aim for here.

Grudge is such a non-factor of a move that Pokemon would rather faint themselves with Memento or Explosion than chance it on Grudge. Part of this might be Grudge's dismal distribution, with the fastest things getting it being Gengar (better things to do), Mismagius (not compelling enough for OU Usage), Ninetales (also better things to do) and Mega Gardevoir (I sense a trend...), but part of it is that your opponent has complete control over which move loses PP from Grudge against a slower Pokemon, and they can just avoid it altogether with a switch or a non-attacking move. Destiny Bond presents them with an infinitely more concrete loss for attacking. Losing PP on a move that isn't relevant to the match anymore is simply not a limiting factor anyone has found threatening enough to use.