Also Armaldo and Sandslash often carry Knock Off, making it scary for Golurk to switch into them as well.
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Resource XY NU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter jake
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I'm not seeing your logic? Combusken outclasses Gorebyss as a passer due to the fact that it can get more than +2 in stats without having to lower your defenses. Amnesia and Barrier? Then you don't have room for any attacking moves. Combusken can raise your attack, defense, and speed all in one turn. Then can go into Xatu and raise your Special Stats with Xatu, or even more easily, sweep with Gatr. Clearly Smash Pass teams can win, that's obvious. However, that doesn't change the fact that it just isn't as effective as Combusken as far as saving turns goes. And keep in mind I'm basing this on the fact that you plan on running that silly Barrier set. I just can't possibly see a reason to run Smash and Barrier when Combusken raises your speed, attack and defense in the same turn.I actually made an NU team around Smash Pass a couple of weeks ago, and imo, Gorebyss is more threatening and better than Combusken as a passer. Gorebyss has access to Barrier and Amnesia in addition to Shell Smash, and you can directly pass that smash to Xatu to be almost indestructible. You can choose to pass to either a special or physical sweeper, which makes it much more versatile. Combusken is definitely a force too no doubt and has its own advantages nonetheless.
Gorebyss @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Barrier
- Amnesia
- Baton Pass
The team formula was this:
1. Screens setter. Uxie is the best because it has Screens + Memento + Magic Coat, and SR too if you want/need. It also has excellent bulk and speed.
2. Gorebyss. Can sharply and rapidly boost every stat, has great bulk and a good typing and can also run attacking moves (like Surf and Ice Beam) and hit very hard with them (fucks Rhydon too as a bonus).
3. Xatu. Basically the NU version of Espeon. Renders phazing and status useless.
4. Togetic. A fairy type is needed to render Dragon Tail useless, Togetic is the best because it has great bulk, access to Stored Power, Recovery, etc.
5. Swoobat. An Unaware mon to render opposing set-up sweepers useless. Has Stored Power.
6. A Steel type. To render Clear Smog useless.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-142438367
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-142456293
I didn't save any more higher up unfortunately, this is all I could find in history, but it damn near auto-wins against anything not prepared for it. BP FTW.
CanadianWifier
Run Away With Me
To be fair, I'm pretty sure that's the set fearsome used on one of his alts with amazing success. Which also kinda proves how broken Passing is, when something as gimmicky as 3 boosting moves + BP gorebyss can work effectively with a bit of screen support.
Kiyo has a video of iplaytennislol using it and got 6-0'd by a Darumaka. I'm pretty sure it's just a gimmick at best that can win, but not consistently.
I personally feel like Combusken is way overrated. Okay, it baton passes speed and bulk up/SD boosts. That's all it can do pretty much, because even with SD and Flare Blitz you're doing pitiful damage to switchins like Rhydon or Seismitoad. And that's assuming you even run those moves and max out your attack, which makes Combusken really frail. So yeah, you have a pokemon with close to none offensive prowess, extreme frailty even with Eviolite, and a little trick that you"ll be able to pull off once per match if you're lucky. I'm not seeing it, but there's no way Combusken is A+ or tier-defining (lol). Gorebyss is much more reliable, has less weaknesses, better bulk and actually threatens phazers like Rhydon, while being able to inflict serious damage on its own before passing out to something else. What comes in safely on +2 Gorebyss with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam? Hardly anything actually. Combuskens only purpose is BP, it can barely even dish out any damage (unless you want to kill yourself with Flare Blitz recoil, and even then there's so many switchins like Gatr, Toad, Rhydon, Dragalge, Qwilfish, just name it). Why use it when SmashPass Gorebyss totally outclasses it?
I don't know how NotHyunations post got so many likes, because it's extremely vague (like what does it even say about Combusken?) and it makes some very big claims without any arguments to back them up. Best utility in the tier, use Combusken and you'll win consistently, takes on the whole tier (like what even lol), defines the tier, nothing less than A+... I see a NFE with a gimmicky set that's totally outclassed and usually not worth a team slot. Trust me, I've used it and it doesn't accomplish much of anything against competent players.
If anything Combusken could drop down, because really it's nothing but a gimmick, just like SmashPass.
I don't know how NotHyunations post got so many likes, because it's extremely vague (like what does it even say about Combusken?) and it makes some very big claims without any arguments to back them up. Best utility in the tier, use Combusken and you'll win consistently, takes on the whole tier (like what even lol), defines the tier, nothing less than A+... I see a NFE with a gimmicky set that's totally outclassed and usually not worth a team slot. Trust me, I've used it and it doesn't accomplish much of anything against competent players.
If anything Combusken could drop down, because really it's nothing but a gimmick, just like SmashPass.
You're underestimating combusken's bulk way too much with the standard set of 252 hp 136 defense 120 speed it hits more than 300 defense which gives it the ability to set up on a lot of mons and pass to threats like kanga / gator. for example lets see some of your switchins. If feraligatr comes in as combusken bulks up this is how much waterfall does 252+ Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. +1 252 HP / 136+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 126-150 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Combusken can then bulk up again even if you choose to sd and then reliably pass off +2 / +2 / +2 to a receiver which is usually always going to be kanga / gatr. toad does 50% with scald so again if you come in on a bulk up they get their +2 x3 and send that that out. i don't know why draglage and qwilfish are added here as they are set up on even easier unless specs dragalge. you compare combusken to gorebyss saying that it is inferior but that is nowhere near the case as combusken has much higher bulk as well as automatic speed gains due to protect and speed boost which is much more broken. it also sets up on much more such as top tier threats like pawniard/shiftry etc and its typing is pretty fantastic while gorebyss doesn't have that benefit and is an inferior passer to combusken because busken can add defense boosts as well to make sure that the receiver isn't getting crushed upon entry. I don't know why you think it does nothing vs competent players when so far it has single handedly won two nupl matches and saying it needs to drop a slot is ridiculous as it is hands down the most broken mon in the tier at the moment.
we're not talking about combusken as an offensive presence, obviously. combusken is meant to play a baton pass support roll. having the ability to pass into casual pokemon like xatu, kangaskhan, and feraligatr and then proceeding to 6-0 the opponent's tender butthole with little effort is what makes combusken the threat it is. obviously nobody is going to try to hit rhydons with flare blitz combusken. additionally, a free switch isnt exactly worth as much when its your dragalage against a +2 atk/def/speed kangaskhan.
edit: im on my phone sorry for any typos that i cbf to look for
edit: im on my phone sorry for any typos that i cbf to look for
of course it's going to be doing pitiful damage to rhydon or seismitoad. that's like saying feraligatr is weak because it does pitiful damage to ferroseed and leafeon. the thing is, defensive seismitoad fails to 2hko combusken with either scald or earthquake, and is basically a free opportunity for it to get up multiple boosts and destroy your team. rhydon is one of the few counters to combusken, i'll give you that, but it needs dragon tail over the standard roar since xatu is a common partner and doesn't even ohko combusken after a bulk up even with max attack and adamant.
combusken can gather speed boosts much easier than gorebyss due to protect, and can come in multiple times during a match. gorebyss is forced into a tough situation everytime it tries to set up if the opponent has a scarfer since they can aggressively switch in and kill you while being faster. this is also due to gorebyss' lack of bulk, a problem that combusken doesn't have as illustrated above.
Seismitoad is free setup for Combusken?? Fails to 2HKO?
0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 152-182 (47 - 56.3%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO (rocks aren't even needed on max HP Combusken)
Xatu wants to come in on Rhydon?
252+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Xatu: 366-438 (118.4 - 141.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's a 3-hitter without SR up, js. Even with Bulk Up you can't risk that. And come on, passing a Bulk Up boost into Xatu and sweeping with Stored Power? Are people that bad on the ladder to lose to that?
Combusken can come in multiple times per match? Gorebyss lacks bulk and you say that Combusken doesn't? Not sure if trolling, but Combusken has awful defenses and some nasty weaknesses, which I showed Gorebyss doesn't have. You can also say that people could bring in a scarfer on Combusken to pressure it, and Combusken even has way more exploitable weaknesses. There's only Scarfed Electric-types that seriously threaten Gorebyss, of which NU has less than you can count on one hand and most of them are not very good. Other Scarfers are not faster or don't come close to knocking out Gorebyss. Sorry but these arguments, oml.
if you want an example of combusken setting up on seismitoad then here it is. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nubeta-16121
rhydon is forced into a series of 50/50's if you try to counter combusken without dragon tail, which is hardly reliable. also, the most common set is specially defensive with at most 16 atk ev's and adamant.
what i meant by combusken coming in multiple times during a match is that even when it's at low hp it can protect and then give another team member +1 speed, while gorebyss will never be able to pull off two shell smashes versus a competent player.
if you think this strategy only works versus terrible ladder players then i suggest you take a look at the two lastest nupl battles.
for the record, i don't use blunder's set, but rather 248 HP / 124 SpD / 136 Spe with careful.
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If seismitoad has to switch in on combusken, combusken can bulk up, protect while seismitoad scalds, bulk up, protect and baton pass. So +2 Atk +2 D +4 Speed, while still being alive. Same situation with rhydon, you would only get 1 bulk up off if it had dragon tail, but at that point you can switch to slurpuff and be set. If it doesnt have dragon tail, xatu isnt ohko by rhydon after +2 defense with 3 rock blast hits even after stealth rocks, can stall a little with roost and kill with giga drain.
I've had a lot of experience using a gorebyss set with 3 boosting moves (and the inferior sets with attacking moves) and can confirm it's extremely hard to stop with screens up. However, echoing what some other people have said in this thread, Combusken is better than Gorebyss because:
1. Combusken can come in multiple times - Despite what you might think this is not actually subjective. To echo what you just said, not sure if trolling... Gore can only use its white herb once, meaning if it wants to smashpass a second time it'll be passing low defences and will most likely need to be getting a barrier / amnesia up to nullify the drops - putting more pressure on it to stay alive, especially if this is the 2nd time it's in because it'll likely have lower health.
[EDIT: oh and I forgot to mention, sticky webs eat up that nice white herb, as does defog which people are gonna direct at your screens. This is a problem that makes it harder for Gore to do its job ONCE - Combusken doesn't face this problem.]
2. Combusken has greater natural bulk - Combusken doesn't have "awful defences", with evio it hits 324hp / 285def / 234 spdef (set: 252 hp 136 def 120 spe) whereas gore hits 314hp / 246def / 186spdef (set of 252hp / 252spe). If smogon chicken has awful defences, then that means gorebyss has pitiful defences... When you play around with EVs more you could bring them closer but the chicken will always out-bulk the fish
3. Combusken can utilise protect for a free boost - Gorebyss can't meaning it'll need to smashpass when it's in a 2nd time ( = lower defences) or get up a barrier / amnesia (meaning it'll probably be too slow to pass out of whatever gets switched in), whereas our fave chicken can pass a simple +1 speed to kanga or gatr or whatever if it needs, giving a pseudo-scarf with extreme ease. [EDIT: Protect can also be used to scout moves, useful in particular for checking against Trick - - - oh man I just keep remembering more and more points in favour of Combusken...]
[there are probably more points but 3 is consise]
Because of these points, gore prefers screens up to help its job of accumulating a gross amount of boost and passing easier, meaning it certainly shouldn't rank higher than Combusken as Combusken doesn't mind as much whether screens are up or not
Gorebyss is better for passing once, which works for a pass out to Xatu. I've used this strategy a fair amount recently, and as TheCanadianWifier said, I've had extremely good success with it on an alt of mine. However, for something that can pass multiple times per match (which is more beneficial to almost all teams - it's only not for mine cause mine's optimised around gore pass to xatu - which occurs a grand total of once) then Combusken outstrips Gorebyss any day
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Hello, I know I haven't posted before, so my opinion will carry less weight, but I want to give my thoughts on Baton Pass in NU. First off, here is a replay of my BP team that should make it clear how I use BP: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-144669253. I currently sit at around ~200th place on the ladder with Baton Pass on the NU ladder.
Alright, so now that that is out of the way, here are a few things that I would like to address:
As said above, BP in NU is incredibly viable, with Combusken Bulk/Work Up and Gorebyss Smash Pass. Unlike the offensive strategy that is currently popular in NU, baton pass concentrates more on one or two Pokemon, making it more difficult to deal with as it is not as dependent on certain parts of the team functioning well. That being said, it can also be considered as easier to beat as the main objective is really just topple a few pokemon. While many believe that dragon tail, circle throw, roar, and whirlwind completely annihilate the strategy, I can assure that this is simply not the case. Firstly, the latter two are bounced back by magic bounce, rendering them useless. Secondly, they all have a priority of -6, meaning that the user will go last and will be subject to a (usually) lethal blow from stored power in that turn. Finally, Xatu can easily sub on circle throw, and, with a few boosts in defense, dragon tail as well. However, taunting the boosting pokemon and then using roar/whirlwind/etc. can often end with a defeat for the BP player as the boosting pokemon won't be able to sub or baton pass away. Furthermore, with the case of Combusken, using strong special attacks will hurt it considerably as it can't boost its special defense. This is the primary reason why I usually use Gorebyss over Combusken in my chains (although I'm currently testing a third possible boosting pokemon). These are the hard checks to it, but some soft checks include Liepard (encore/taunt on boosting pokemon, Knock off on switch to Xatu), Kanga (decently bulky, Sucker punch on Xatu), Spiritomb (Infiltrator + Sucker Punch on Xatu, Immune to stored power), Shiftry (Defogs screens, hits Gorebyss hard with Grass, hits Xatu hard with Dark, Immune to stored power), Bulky psychics (stored power is weak to them), Trick users (screws the boosting pokemon if now running sub), and many gimmicky sash/sturdy sets. As you can imagine, Xatu's Magic Bounce is often the thing that keeps these types of baton pass chain alive, so switching in with a pokemon that has taunt/roar/etc. and causing the boosting pokemon to pass prematurely can help you defeat baton pass players.
Structure of Full-BP teams in NU
The structure of BP teams is generally as follows:
Alright, so here I'm going to clear up some of the misunderstandings regarding BP pokemon, starting off with the Screener. Too many people thing that Uxie is the one and the only screener, however, I can tell you that Kadabra is definitely better. This is because of Kadabra's access to taunt and better speed tier. It can set up screens before it gets hit, and it can actually give a timely death that allows you to gain momentum. You may now be questioning now the fact that Kadabra doesn't have access to memento, which, isn't actually that big of a deal because of the next pokemon. The Memento'er should almost always hold a Red Card. If the opponent is memento'd, they will simply switch to a pokemon that will OHKO the Memento'er. However, if their stats aren't lowered and the Memento'er is some crappy pokemon like Cottonee, they will usually try their hand at attacking it, causing them to be switched out to some unwanted pokemon. This can actually gain you momentum that memento wouldn't, and, at the very least, make up for the lack of memento in the Screener. I'm not currently sure what the most ideal set or even pokemon is for the Memento'er is but as stated above, I'm using cottonee right now and it works pretty well. Now on to the booster, which is definitely a topic for discussion. Gorebyss, in my opinion, is the way to go as it can boost every stat except for one of the defenses with sub and without sub it can boost literally every stat. As I stated before, strong special attackers weaken Combusken's ability to function properly. Moreover, Combusken can't even pass special attack boosts without Work Up, which makes it unable to boost its defenses. Despite having said this, Combusken is a heck of a lot more bulky than people think with screens and eviolite. Finally, for the extra leads/receivers. I personally use one extra lead (Liepard) and one extra receiver (Glaceon), but I'm still messing around with what the possibilities could be.
Feasibility of a BP Nerf/Ban
While baton pass is a strong strategy when played right, I don't think that it merits any attention in regards to nerfing or banning. Dedicated BP teams like mine get shutdown by taunt and teams with just two or three BP pokemon generally lack screens/memento to give them much bulk. In the future it may become a full-blown archetype, but this is nothing like what OU experienced pre-Baton Pass Clause. It is easily manageable and does zero centralization of the metagame.
Alright, so now that that is out of the way, here are a few things that I would like to address:
- Viability of BP in NU
- Structure of Full-BP teams in NU
- Viable BP pokemon in NU
- Feasibility of BP nerf/ban in NU
As said above, BP in NU is incredibly viable, with Combusken Bulk/Work Up and Gorebyss Smash Pass. Unlike the offensive strategy that is currently popular in NU, baton pass concentrates more on one or two Pokemon, making it more difficult to deal with as it is not as dependent on certain parts of the team functioning well. That being said, it can also be considered as easier to beat as the main objective is really just topple a few pokemon. While many believe that dragon tail, circle throw, roar, and whirlwind completely annihilate the strategy, I can assure that this is simply not the case. Firstly, the latter two are bounced back by magic bounce, rendering them useless. Secondly, they all have a priority of -6, meaning that the user will go last and will be subject to a (usually) lethal blow from stored power in that turn. Finally, Xatu can easily sub on circle throw, and, with a few boosts in defense, dragon tail as well. However, taunting the boosting pokemon and then using roar/whirlwind/etc. can often end with a defeat for the BP player as the boosting pokemon won't be able to sub or baton pass away. Furthermore, with the case of Combusken, using strong special attacks will hurt it considerably as it can't boost its special defense. This is the primary reason why I usually use Gorebyss over Combusken in my chains (although I'm currently testing a third possible boosting pokemon). These are the hard checks to it, but some soft checks include Liepard (encore/taunt on boosting pokemon, Knock off on switch to Xatu), Kanga (decently bulky, Sucker punch on Xatu), Spiritomb (Infiltrator + Sucker Punch on Xatu, Immune to stored power), Shiftry (Defogs screens, hits Gorebyss hard with Grass, hits Xatu hard with Dark, Immune to stored power), Bulky psychics (stored power is weak to them), Trick users (screws the boosting pokemon if now running sub), and many gimmicky sash/sturdy sets. As you can imagine, Xatu's Magic Bounce is often the thing that keeps these types of baton pass chain alive, so switching in with a pokemon that has taunt/roar/etc. and causing the boosting pokemon to pass prematurely can help you defeat baton pass players.
Structure of Full-BP teams in NU
The structure of BP teams is generally as follows:
- Screener
- Memento'er
- Booster
- Xatu
- Extra Lead/Extra Receiver/Other Filler
- Extra Lead/Extra Receiver/Other Filler
Alright, so here I'm going to clear up some of the misunderstandings regarding BP pokemon, starting off with the Screener. Too many people thing that Uxie is the one and the only screener, however, I can tell you that Kadabra is definitely better. This is because of Kadabra's access to taunt and better speed tier. It can set up screens before it gets hit, and it can actually give a timely death that allows you to gain momentum. You may now be questioning now the fact that Kadabra doesn't have access to memento, which, isn't actually that big of a deal because of the next pokemon. The Memento'er should almost always hold a Red Card. If the opponent is memento'd, they will simply switch to a pokemon that will OHKO the Memento'er. However, if their stats aren't lowered and the Memento'er is some crappy pokemon like Cottonee, they will usually try their hand at attacking it, causing them to be switched out to some unwanted pokemon. This can actually gain you momentum that memento wouldn't, and, at the very least, make up for the lack of memento in the Screener. I'm not currently sure what the most ideal set or even pokemon is for the Memento'er is but as stated above, I'm using cottonee right now and it works pretty well. Now on to the booster, which is definitely a topic for discussion. Gorebyss, in my opinion, is the way to go as it can boost every stat except for one of the defenses with sub and without sub it can boost literally every stat. As I stated before, strong special attackers weaken Combusken's ability to function properly. Moreover, Combusken can't even pass special attack boosts without Work Up, which makes it unable to boost its defenses. Despite having said this, Combusken is a heck of a lot more bulky than people think with screens and eviolite. Finally, for the extra leads/receivers. I personally use one extra lead (Liepard) and one extra receiver (Glaceon), but I'm still messing around with what the possibilities could be.
Feasibility of a BP Nerf/Ban
While baton pass is a strong strategy when played right, I don't think that it merits any attention in regards to nerfing or banning. Dedicated BP teams like mine get shutdown by taunt and teams with just two or three BP pokemon generally lack screens/memento to give them much bulk. In the future it may become a full-blown archetype, but this is nothing like what OU experienced pre-Baton Pass Clause. It is easily manageable and does zero centralization of the metagame.
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Not sure how seriously I can take this when I saw the infestation swalot, then I saw substitute slaking...
your post just proves that combusken is better as it doesn't require dedicated pokemon to support it. at the very most you're using xatu which can be a liability if you don't manage to pull off a pass, but everything else on your typical combusken based team is quite standard and will function without boosts. you're not even required to use xatu as there are plenty of things which can 6-0 people with +2 atk / +2 def / +2 spe.
keep in mind that this thread is about the discussion of individual pokemon, and not playstyles.
That replay is pretty ridiculous. If you let somebody setup SR and three layers of Spikes, and let Combusken setup while switching in and out on it, and let a Xatu Calm Mind for free, you pretty much deserve to lose. What else can I say. Maybe smogon tour players need to step up their game if these kind of games are actually a thing, because on PO even small daily tournaments aren't that bad.
Rhydon can just Roar out Combusken for free. Not the case with Gorebyss. I'm not going to keep on rambling about this, especially if people bring up CM Stored Power Xatu again.
Yes Combusken can pass +1 speed to something else, but Gorebyss can like, use attacks that do damage. So yeah. Pick your poison I guess.
Not really interested in those battles if they're as good as this one really.
As for those defensive Combusken sets people bring up... how are you setting up with those? Even after a Protect you're dirt slow, giving your opponent free turns to do whatever as you have to Protect, and then you can't even setup Bulk Ups because they have their counter in against you... Also, weaknesses. Gorebyss has much less to worry about in general. You also fully counter these sets by bringing in a Taunter like Qwilfish. Worst case scenario they pass out +2 speed with -1 Attack, or Qwilfish can T-wave, Mismagius can predict Protect and Nasty Plot, etc.
Again, if you let an opponent setup that many boosts you're probably doing it wrong. That replay is a perfect example.
Sorry, I'm currently on vacation and not at my actual computer, so I just played a quick match and posted the replay. I hope that my rank and rating can at least show that my post is worth looking at despite it being my first post on these forums.
First off, sorry for going off topic slightly, I just wanted to offer another point of view on the Gorebyss vs Combusken discussion.
Not that I'm trying to say your completely wrong (Combusken does have its merits), but in what way does my post prove that combusken doesn't need dedicated support? I said that people underestimate its bulk, but I simply don't see it being better than Gorebyss. Gorebyss only has two weaknesses and its defensive stats become monstrous after Barrier/Amnesia. This could just be my perspective / playstyle however.
Not complaining, but a) your opponent is pretty bad, and b) ladder rankings mean nothing. The ladder is incredibly easy to work with, and even a #1 peak is relatively insignificant in representing the viability of a team or a player due to the nature of players on the ladder. Anything under 20 shouldn't even be talked about really if someone is actually attempting to ladder.
Secondly, the discrussiong of CBusk vs Goreb is simple. Gorebyss can't pass more than once without accepting the fact that it will be forced to pass -1 defenses, making it much more unreliable. Unlike this, Combusken can actually perform multiple passes reliably, as well as sweep outright on its own, and at as a revenge killer by coming in on a slower sweeper and hitting a protect. Combusken is simply the more effective passer in the long run, as it can pass its boosts multiple times, and by the way, it is far bulkier than Gorebyss. Gorebyss is much more easily inhibited in terms of passing defensive boosts, and spends multiple turns setting up, potentially offering an opponent who can outboost you [e.g. BD Slurpuff] free setup..
The main point of difference is Combusken can pass multiple times which is beneficial to most teams over a single pass. Yes a team that optimises a single pass of a gross amount of boosts from Gorebyss into a Xatu is devestating. I know this from first hand experience with a team I've had a gross amount of success with. However, flexibility is limited and support of screens etc is needed for this pass to occur.
This thread is about pokemon rankings, and because gorebyss often needs more support than #1 Chicken, it shouldn't be ranked higher than Combusken. IMO Combusken to A+, and Gorebyss to stay where it is at B+ due to the support it needs to do its job consistently, and the greater amount of things that stop it from doing said job. My post (and other people's posts) above expand upon these and other points.
EDIT: nice n sniped by 1second by Brawl, gg fren :)
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Stored power Xatu is one of the best abusers of the boosts you can get, because it patches up the bad defenses, gives you a base 100+ STAB move before you have used any CMs and it can't get phazed out without dragon tail/circle throw (both of which have no viable users that won't get ohko'd on the turn they try to phase it out). Understand that even at +1 with no investment combusken is fast enough to outspeed most utility mons. Mismagius isn't even a semi-reliable answer, because if it tries to taunt/nasty plot on combusken it can just flare blitz and kill it for one simple reason: every turn combusken is in, it gets faster. So while things like Mismagius outspeed even at +1 or +2, when they're actually in a position to make a difference combusken is still faster than them, speed investment or not.
And the difference in weaknesses matter. Grass is a horrible weakness to have right now because they are everywhere and an unboosted gorebyss isn't taking any of them on. Similarly combusken isn't going to set up on rhydon or golem, but there's a large difference between 2 pokemon and an entire typing.
Also: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nubeta-16103 . Taunter, sets up on rock type that commonly run twave, CM Xatu.
as ridiculous as the replay is it still backs up my point that combusken can set up on seismitoad, so i'm not sure why you brought it up. poor players or not, it still doesn't change the fact that seismitoad, one of the premier fire-type checks in the tier, cannot prevent combusken from setting up.
also i'm interested to see what you would've done in the same scenario considering combusken could've set up on 4/6 of his team. i wouldn't consider it poorly built either. the hazards only helped xatu ohko pawniard when it would've been a 2hko either way, and pawniard couldn't 2hko back at that point.
like i said, it's a 50/50. if you switch in rhydon as combusken uses bulk up, you face the risk of roaring and getting it bounced back by xatu.
i didn't know flare blitz wasn't an attack that could do damage
there's a large list of pokemon that combusken can force out or take hits from due to virtue of its tying, which means you can easily bulk up as they switch in. in that scenairo i'm wondering which counters you're speaking of as even feraligatr is unable to prevent combusken from setting up and passing two bulk ups. this also means you're getting at least +2 speed, and last time i checked over 350 speed wasn't dirt slow. about qwilfish, once again you're risking having taunt and thunder wave bounced back by xatu while combusken takes no damage, meaning it can come back later in the match. mismagius just dies to flare blitz at +1 and doesn't come close to ohkoing even if you somehow manage to set up while combusken is still at +1 speed. nice try though
+2 252 SpA Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 169-201 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This guy has a Muk for one, two he has a Muk with Qwilfish, three he Drain Punches against Combusken and gets wrecked by a Xatu because he let his opponent setup way too much. Again, what can I say. I'm not going to mock these players, but let's say these replays aren't of high quality to say the least. The teambuilding is just awful too, for example four Ground-weaknesses and no resist or immunity and that's the least worrying part.
And Combusken is not going to do any damage with that spread and Bulk Up, @ FLCL I'm sorry. Point is that Gorebyss is a solid backup sweeper besides passing, Combusken does just passing. For that reason alone it's outclassed. @ Brawlfest Combusken is not sweeping anything, I hope that wasn't serious. Not even if you go all out offensive with SD, Life Orb and skip out on Baton Pass for coverage. You have room for BU, BP, Protect and Flare Blitz. How does that sweep anything?
EDIT: because This is fearsome asked I'll reply shortly to his points:
#1 Combusken can come in repeatedly: Well no. Between SR, mediocre bulk, having to get free switchins to be able to setup, having to stomach a big hit to get off a single Bulk Up it's not coming in repeatedly and setting up. It can attempt to pass +1 speed with Protecting, but those passes aren't free and you're letting your receiver take a hit for just +1 Speed. Could be worth it, but generally you'll be taking a big hit.
#2 Better bulk: Again, no. Weaknesses play a big role. Gorebyss has Grass and Electric, Grass being more common in NU for a change compared to other tiers. There's little STAB Grass moves, and even less STAB Electric moves. Combusken is weak to Flying, Psychic, Water and Ground. If you run a bulky Combusken set (which is still bad) the bulk difference is trivial and you miss out on crucial speed. Combusken can't outspeed fast threats after a Protect now, which it could otherwise and pass out the +1 or possibly revenge stuff with a Flare Blitz if needed.
#3 Protect for free boosts: Again, your receiver takes a hit for just +1 speed. Combusken is dead weight too, so you're pretty much 5 to 6. Worth it? Not really. Gorebyss has the advantage of being a lethal sweeper when the scarfer is neutralized and stuff like AV Hariyama slightly weakened. And it SmashPasses, turning any pokemon into a huge threat without giving away free turns or lacking offensive presence like Combusken.
There you go~~
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the primary roles of both pokemon are to baton pass, and combusken's superior bulk and access to speed boost and protect makes this much easier to accomplish than gorebyss. if you need more convincing go look back at my previous arguments. if you're using a gorebyss set that can also sweep, you're not passing any defense boosts, which means that xatu or any other recipitent is more vulnerable to the large amount of fake out, sucker punch, and other priority users in the tier. you're also having a much harder time setting up if you're not using max hp gorebyss. i'll agree with you that gorebyss outclasses this specific combusken set as a sweeper, but even that is not set in stone as against faster, frailer teams, combusken will preform much better than gorebyss due to it being able to live attacks from pretty much any scarfer (e.g. scarf jynx doesn't even come close to ohkoing with psychic), while gorebyss can be easily revenge killed. in general, saying gorebyss outclasses, or is even superior to combusken is incorrect
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Can you please explain how he "let his opponent set up too much" when all he did was let Chicken set up a single turn and basically got swept from there? If that's the case, I'm rather curious as to how you're capable of applying total pressure to Combusken 100% of the time and not have a single Pokémon on your entire team that Combusken can set up, because that's basically what you're implying. Even the most offensive of teams generally will have a couple of Pokémon that Chicken can set up on (
And I don't get why you keep saying Gorebyss is "more reliable" than Combusken when if you've used or played against any decent team with it you'd know that's far from the truth. Combusken sets up far easier than Byss because thanks to Speed Boost it can actually afford to invest in its bulk, as well as being able to utilize Bulk Up which not only increases its setup turns but gives a cushion on Defense for the recipient to fall back on. Gorebyss doesn't have these advantages as even if you use Barrier / Amnesia in conjunction with Shell Smash it's incredibly difficult to set up all of them without immense support. Not to mention that contrary to your belief, Gorebyss is actually quite easy to pressure with Scarfers as it will basically always be taking damage on the turn it sets up, and from there it can either stay in which makes it vulnerable to being RKed, or BP out and have the recipient likely take a lot of damage on the switch-in (particularly with the aforementioned inability to reliably pass Defense boosts).
Btw stating over and over that Rhydon counters Combusken isn't a very compelling argument because it's just one Pokémon (hint: being forced to use Rhydon on every team solely to counter this is stupid), and it's been proven multiple times in this thread that there aren't many other things that can reliably stop Chicken once it gets going.
Your posts are giving me cancer .-.
If you're boosting with Combusken when there is a Rhydon on the opposing team, you're doing it wrong. And outside of Rhydon, you are not naming any pokemon that can 100% of the time come in on it (as it boosts) and keep it from boosting more or passing. And not agreeing with Combusken moving up is one thing, but calling it "bad" is just insulting.
- Can Combusken come in repeatedly? Yes. Most offensive teams possess at least one pokemon that Combusken can set up on (a lot of them already named), and defensive+balanced teams have even more. It has very solid bulk (more than Gorebyss) and a good typing, making many pokemon set up bait. It definitely can set up more than once (which is already more than Gorebyss can ever hope for). And if one sweeper fails, whatever, you can just start all over again.
- Are either Gorebyss or Combusken lethal sweepers themselves? Not really. They are meant to support the actual sweepers, and when uninvested, neither has the power to actually sweep (though they can beat a number of threats by themselves). Both can muscle through some pokes once they set up, but I find this somewhat irrelevant when we are judging them on their supportive capabilities.
- Who requires less support? Combusken, by far. Gorebyss sometimes needs an entire team dedicated to it, while Combusken only really needs Xatu (and sometimes not even that) and something to pass to. This flexibility in teambuilding easily gives Combusken the edge.
#combuskenforubers
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