OU Starmie (Defensive)

[Sturdynips]

QC: aim, Jukain, alexwolf
GP: frenzyplant, The Dutch Plumberjack

skeleton

Reflect Type
########
name: Reflect Type
move 1: Reflect Type
move 2: Scald
move 3: Rapid Spin
move 4: Recover
ability: Natural Cure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 16 SpD / 224 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

• Reflect Type is the key to this set, changing Starmie's type to match its opponent's. This has great use against TTar, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and ferrothorn.
• Scald is standard to fish for burns and acts as a solid STAB when Starmie is a Water-type
• Rapid Spin is important to remove entry hazards
• Recover keeps Starmie healthy and works well with Reflect type
• Psyshock is a decent choice as an alternate STAB to deal with Keldeo, while Toxic cripples common switch ins such as Rotom-W.
• Ice Beam is another option that provides good coverage against the likes of Latias, Dragonite, and Garchomp.

Set Details
========

• Given EVs maximize bulk while also maintaining Starmie's very important Speed tier with just enough to outrun Thundurus. Defense EVs allow Starmie to survive CB Terrak's Stone Edge. 16 SpD lowers the chance of being OHKOed by Modest Lando's EP and Latias's DM, as well as avoiding the 2HKO from Scarf Keldeo's HP Electric.
• Natural Cure is preferred to act as a status sponge for the team and heal annoying status in general.
• Leftovers are self explanatory

Usage Tips
========

• Unlike other variants, this set can afford to stay in on its checks counters and use reflect type + scald to wear them down. Good targets for this include Ferrothorn, and pursuit users such as Bisharp and Mega Scizor. Greninja that lack HP Fire and Dark Pulse will also be beaten by this set. Other noteworthy Pokemon that can be beaten by Reflect type include Mega Charizard Y, Amoonguss, and Breloom. Rotom-W is also much less of a threat.
• Don't overuse the surprise factor though, Starmie is still vulnerable to strong attacks from some Pokemon even after changing type, eg TTar's Stone Edge
• Clearing entry hazards is a major role of this set, so try and use Rapid Spin as much as possible, keepig Starmie healthy as long as the opposing hazard user is.
• Often, however, it is better to try and catch spinblockers with Scald and potentially burn them rather than losing some momentum with a failed Rapid Spin.
• Due to Starmie's decent-at-best Special Attack and lack of significant investment, this set doesn't hit hard at all so your best bet for damage is whittling away with Scald for burns.

Team Options
========

• This set is best suited to defensive or balanced teams
• Specially Defensive heatran is a nice partner as it can handle Talonflame and Latios.
• Pokemon weak to entry hazards such as Dragonite appreciate them being removed
• Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn are good partners to switch into Electric and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie, especially from Pokemon that Starmie struggles to thwart with Reflect type, such as Thundurus. in return, Starmie can take on the likes of Heatran.
• Clefable is a great choice, beating the likes of Thundurus and Breloom, while Starmie can lure and handle Bisharp, Scizor, and Ferrothorn.
• Scizor is decent as it can smack TTar and Lati@s without HP Fire

Reflect Type
########
name: Reflect Type
move 1: Reflect Type
move 2: Scald
move 3: Rapid Spin
move 4: Recover
ability: Natural Cure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 16 SpD / 244 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========
Reflect Type changes Starmie's typing to match its opponent's, which has fantastic utility when facing the likes of Tyranitar, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and Ferrothorn. Scald is almost mandatory on defensive Water-types, making up for its lower Base Power with a high chance to inflict a burn. Starmie is one of the few Pokemon with access to Rapid Spin, which is an excellent tool for supporting teammates that do not appreciate entry hazards, while ensuring that hazards on the opposite side of the field remain intact. This supporting role is greatly aided by access to reliable recovery in Recover.

While this set has very little room for deviation, there are a few alternate options available. Ice Beam has awesome neutral coverage and allows Starmie to take on the likes of Latios, Thundurus, and Garchomp, as well as deal with Lum Berry Dragonite if Stealth Rock is on the field. Psyshock and Toxic are decent choices to target Keldeo and Mega Venusaur and bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W, respectively, but mono-Psychic coverage is often undesirable, and Starmie's already lackluster damage output is heightened if Toxic is chosen.

Set Details
========
The given EV spread maximizes Starmie's bulk while also maintaining its very important Speed tier, with just enough EVs to outrun Choice Scarf Magnezone in order to reflect its typing. The 16 Special Defense EVs lower the chance of being OHKOed by Latias's Draco Meteor and Modest Landorus's Earth Power, as well as avoiding the 2HKO from Choice Scarf Keldeo's Hidden Power Electric. Natural Cure is the preferred ability, allowing Starmie to act as a status sponge for the team as well as heal itself of annoying status in general.

Usage Tips
========
Unlike other Starmie variants, this set can afford to stay in on its usual checks and counters and use Reflect Type and Scald to turn the tables on them. Good targets for this are Pursuit users such as Bisharp and Scizor. Ferrothorn is also a noteworthy target, as it will be hard-pressed to deal any damage to Starmie after its typing has been reflected. Starmie can also beat Mega Charizard Y, Amoonguss, and Breloom in this manner, while Rotom-W becomes much less of a threat due to Volt Switch only dealing neutral damage. It is important to avoid overly relying on the surprise factor, though, as Starmie is still vulnerable to strong attacks from some Pokemon even after changing type, such as Tyranitar's Stone Edge.

Clearing entry hazards is a major role for this set, so try to use Rapid Spin as soon as possible when necessary, keeping Starmie healthy as long as the opposing hazard user is. Often, however, it is better to try catching spinblockers with Scald and potentially burn them rather than losing momentum with a failed Rapid Spin. Keep in mind that due to Starmie's decent-at-best Special Attack and lack of significant investment, this set does not hit hard at all, so your best bet for damage is whittling away with Scald and fishing for burns.

Team Options
========
This set is best suited to defensive or balanced teams. Specially defensive Heatran is a decent partner, as it can handle Talonflame, Latios, and Magic Guard Clefable. Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock, such as Dragonite and Gyarados, appreciate Starmie's Rapid Spin support, as does Talonflame, which can also check Magic Guard Clefable. Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn are good teammates to switch into Electric- and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie, especially from Pokemon that Starmie struggles to thwart with Reflect Type, such as Thundurus. In return, Starmie can defeat Heatran. Calm Mind Clefable is a great choice for a teammate, as it checks Thundurus and Greninja, while Starmie lures and cripples Mega Scizor and Bisharp, which could otherwise prevent Clefable from sweeping. Finally, Scizor is a nice partner to check Tyranitar and Latias lacking Hidden Power Fire.

 

[Sturdynips]

wasn't sure about EVs so i just put enough Speed for Thundurus, this is ready for QC

 

[CyclicCompound]

I would throw those extra 32 EVs in Defense. Starmie wants to be as bulky as possible.

 

[Berry Juice]

• Be wary of Aegislash as a spinblocker; using Reflect type will not allow Starmie to resist Pursuit, and it also gains a weakness to Aegislash's Ghost-type STAB moves.

I know what you mean here, but it sounds like Starmie didn't have a Ghost-type weakness before using Reflect Type:P

 

[Sturdynips]

Updated

 

[Berserking Now]

I would add somewhere that Starmie can wall HP Fire Greninja considering that greninja's has so few checks.

 

[SylveonIsCute]

I would add somewhere that Starmie can wall HP Fire Greninja considering that greninja's has so few checks.

not really, Greninja outspeeds and OHKOs with dark pulse, and i think it OHKOs with HP grass too

 

[Agent Gibbs]

not really, Greninja outspeeds and OHKOs with dark pulse, and i think it OHKOs with HP grass too

Yeah, but Dark Pulse isn't really that great on Greninja since Extrasensory gets some of the same neutral coverage against Water-types and such and specifically hits Mega Venusaur and Keldeo, two very important targets. The set you're generally most likely to see at higher level play is Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Extrasensory / HP Fire or Grass, and sets with the former Hidden Power type get walled by Starmie. HP Grass will shift the matchup to Greninja's favor, but HP Fire Greninja can't run HP Grass for obvious reasons, and that was the main variant he was talking about.

 

[alexwolf]

By moving the 32 EVs from Def to SpD you can always survive a Draco Meteor from LO Latias from full health, and thus beat it one on one, which has come very handy in quite a lot of occasions from my experience.

Also, some more uses of Reflect Type you could mention is beating Mega Charizard Y, non max SpA Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Sash Breloom (LO may beat you, depending on damage rolls and whether Scald burns or not) 1 v 1, as well as being able to stay in against opposing Rotom-W, as neutral Volt Switch doesn't do that much. All those Pokemon are very important to mention imo, because all of them are threatening to a certain degree, especially Breloom and Amoonguss (if you lack a Grass-type), Mega Char Y, and Rotom-W, which is assumed to be a good Starmie check and would otherwise gain free momentum against Starmie.

Also, Ferrothorn is a nice Grass-type teammate as Starmie + Ferrothorn are able to counter Greninja no matter what Hidden Power it runs, and of course those two have great synergy together in general. with Starmie taking on Fire- and Fighting-types and Ferrothorn taking on Electric- and Dragon-types.

 

[aim]

I'd put clefable as a partner as starmie gets rid of what beats clefable i.e. bisharp scizor ferrothorn and clef walls breloom/thundurus. Anyway agreeing with alexwolf this looks good man

 

[Sturdynips]

Good points alexwolf and aim, I've updated accordingly

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Okay, so I really love Reflect Type Starmie myself and hate being a party pooper, but is it really so different from the on-site defensive set that it needs its own analysis? Both sets are extremely similar with regards to the EV spread and move setup, so could we just slash Reflect Type in the second slot of the on-site set (preferably make it the primary slash and drop Ice Beam to Moves or Set Details)?

 

[Lumari]

Okay, so I really love Reflect Type Starmie myself and hate being a party pooper, but is it really so different from the on-site defensive set that it needs its own analysis? Both sets are extremely similar with regards to the EV spread and move setup, so could we just slash Reflect Type in the second slot of the on-site set (preferably make it the primary slash and drop Ice Beam to Moves or Set Details)?

The on-site analysis is outdated (it's from the skeleton rush), the defensive set was chopped.

 

[Sturdynips]

Okay, so I really love Reflect Type Starmie myself and hate being a party pooper, but is it really so different from the on-site defensive set that it needs its own analysis? Both sets are extremely similar with regards to the EV spread and move setup, so could we just slash Reflect Type in the second slot of the on-site set (preferably make it the primary slash and drop Ice Beam to Moves or Set Details)?

You're correct for the most part, though IMO Reflect Type allows Starmie to play a noticeably different role to usual. In fact, it could almost be classed as a lure in some situations. This allows for greater variation in Usage Tips and Team Options, which, when combined with a standard bulky starmie a la Gen 5, would make the analysis overly large when it doesn't need to be. Just as very similar offensive sets are split, eg Choice sets, I feel that Reflect Type provides enough of a distinction from the norm to be split.

 

[Jukain]

hey, so if you don't mind i'd like this changed to a general bulky set to replace the one on-site. starmie needs this anyways, and reflect type is the best defensive set. i'd probably slash in psyshock (2hkoes mega venu usually after rocks, 2hkoes amoonguss, does lots of damage to keldeo, hitting fighters in general..., ohkoing gengar, basically general coverage) and toxic (cripples a bunch of good switch-ins, like lati@s, thund, char y/char x, greninja, rotom, mew, slowbro, fish, raik/mane). prolly ib in moves (ohkoes land, coverage on dnite, lati@s [kinda], spdef scor).

here's my ev spread: 248 hp / 20 def / 16 spd / 224 spe. hazards hp number, always survives cb rak stone edge, outruns thund. many latias are bulkier anyways running spreads like 72 hp / 184 spa / 252 spe which never koes, and this spread has only a 6.3% chance to be koed by max spa anyways. spd is useful in other scenarios like vs rp lando (18.8% chance to be koed by modest ep as opposed to 31.3% chance) and only 2.3% chance to be 2hkoed by scarf keldeo hp electric.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Definitely agreeing with making this the bulky set. Defensive Starmie without Reflect Type is really underwhelming and I don't think it's really worth using. I'd like to see the only sets be offensive and reflect type.

Also not sure if this was what you were implying when you were talking about slashing Psyshock, but I don't think Recover is 100% necessary on this set. A lot of the time I find myself using Reflect type not for long-term things like walling and eventually beating Ferrothorn, but for short-term things like escaping Pursuit from Tyranitar and Bisharp. I don't think it would hurt to slash Psyshock and possibly even Ice Beam over Recover.

 

[alexwolf]

Recover is a must man, Starmie is very frail and gets worn down very easily. without Recovery you can't check anything for more than one time. Personally, i think that the set has little room for deviation, though Psyshock has some merits that could warrant a mention in Moves, but nothing more as Reflect Type is really vital to defensive Starmie's success, which is otherwise huge Pursuit bait and not even an effective anti-SR Pokemon anymore, as common SR setters such as Ferrothorn can beat it one on one.

 

[Sturdynips]

okay Jukain i've made the changes, though i kept Psyshock, Toxic, and Ice Beam in Movess only as I agree with alexwolf in that there really isn't much room for deviation.

 

[aim]

Definitely agree that this set doesn't have much room for deviation. Scald, besides sr, is the best move in the game. The purpose is to spin vs counters and you need the recovery. Anyway this looks good especially after what you added 1/3

 

[Jukain]

2/3

 

[PurpleCordial]

"Greninja that lack HP Fire and Dark Pulse will also be beaten by this set."

Assuming that that's supposed to be HP Grass but grass coverage is pretty mandatory now so idk how relevant that statement in the current meta

 

[Jukain]

yo Sturdynips 2 qcs please write this up

 

[Sturdynips]

Sorry, been a bit busy lately. Should be written soon

 

[Magcargo]

Protect should be mentioned in moves. Its a nice move to obtain a bit more recovery from leftovers and cause more residual damage with Scald burns.

Spdef Talonflame is a nice partner since it appreciates SR being gone and can keep ground-types in check.

 

[Sturdynips]

okay this is written, sorry for the wait. Magcargo i didn't put protect in as tbh it seems to offer very little and Starmie already has a lot of other moves it wants to run.