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Actually I think Sheer Force Iron Head would be better:
24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slurpuff: 162-192 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's less reliant on Slurpuff's Speed and it can grantee to 2HKO on all offensive sets, plus Steelix is so bulky it doesn't need sturdy to survive for the most part.
You have a great point, especially the calc on the physically defensive puff, but Gyro Ball wrecks Slurpuff with Unburden activated along with other revenge killers. For example:
24 Atk Steelix Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 330-390 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
But I think that Sheer Force Iron Head is also a good option, and might just go down to what your teams needs. Implying this is a viable set...
Personally I've been having a lot of success with Spiritomb, and I personally think he's one of the stronger pkmn of the tier. I made a video explaining why he's NOT OP, but very strong!
Personally I've been having a lot of success with Spiritomb, and I personally think he's one of the stronger pkmn of the tier. I made a video explaining why he's NOT OP, but very strong!
It really is an amazingly versatile 'mon. Its typing also makes it fairly easy to fit onto many teams. Not quite "OP", but definitely very good at the things it does. A/5.
K so idk if anyone brough this one up in tis thread, but im too lazy to check (sorry). I had some thoughts and decided to bring up an old friend from gen 5. Yes im talkin about a flying robot :)
Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Punch
- Earthquake
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
Not much to say, its still a beast imo. EVs are designed to get the jump on uninvested Lanturn, which is pretty self explanatory i guess. This thing still wrecks like hell, and idk why it seems to be so forgotten atm.
Lanturn 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 522-614 (114.9 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 187-222 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Vileplume
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 208-246 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 151-178 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Slurpuff
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slurpuff: 205-243 (55.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slurpuff: 148-175 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Granbull -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 151-178 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Seismitoad
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 225-265 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferroseed
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 160-190 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 133-157 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Avalugg 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Qwilfish
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 302-356 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Swalot
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swalot: 422-498 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swalot: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Weezing
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 118-141 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Uxie 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 224-266 (63.2 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Torkoal
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 296-350 (86 - 101.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Steelix 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 224-266 (63.2 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 136-160 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Audino
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 205-243 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 248-292 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Regigigas
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 212-250 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 212-250 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Regirock 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 224-266 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 136-160 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Gourgeist
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gourgeist-Large: 258-306 (72.8 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gourgeist-Large: 214-254 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Leafeon
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leafeon: 188-222 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Carracosta
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 229-271 (65 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 138-163 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Barbaracle 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Barbaracle: 338-402 (97.1 - 115.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Barbaracle: 123-145 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Barbaracle: 204-242 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tangela 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Shelgon
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelgon: 150-178 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelgon: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Dusknoir
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 218-260 (74.1 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 153-180 (52 - 61.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dusclops
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 152-180 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes
This just happened
Golurk just wrecked shit XD
I will add more calcs as i go, XY NU still isnt as old as you'd think :)
*Please note that few of the Pokemon i calculated against actually run these defense spreads, and that i simply wanted to show off Golurks raw offensive power.
PS: Tell me if i put in too many calcs, and if so tell me which ones are irrelevant/i should take out. Thx for your consideration.
K so idk if anyone brough this one up in tis thread, but im too lazy to check (sorry). I had some thoughts and decided to bring up an old friend from gen 5. Yes im talkin about a flying robot :)
Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Punch
- Earthquake
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
Not much to say, its still a beast imo. EVs are designed to get the jump on uninvested Lanturn, which is pretty self explanatory i guess. This thing still wrecks like hell, and idk why it seems to be so forgotten atm.
Lanturn 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 522-614 (114.9 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 187-222 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Vileplume
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 208-246 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 151-178 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Slurpuff
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slurpuff: 205-243 (55.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slurpuff: 148-175 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Granbull -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 151-178 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Seismitoad
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 225-265 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferroseed
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 160-190 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 133-157 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Avalugg 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Qwilfish
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 302-356 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Swalot
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swalot: 422-498 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swalot: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Weezing
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 118-141 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Uxie 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 224-266 (63.2 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Torkoal
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 296-350 (86 - 101.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Steelix 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 224-266 (63.2 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 136-160 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Audino
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 205-243 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 248-292 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Regigigas
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 212-250 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 212-250 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Regirock 252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 224-266 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 136-160 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Gourgeist
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gourgeist-Large: 258-306 (72.8 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gourgeist-Large: 214-254 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yes
This just happened
Golurk just wrecked shit XD
I will add more calcs as i go, XY NU still isnt as old as you'd think :)
PS: Tell me if i put in too many calcs, and if so tell me which ones are irrelevant/i should take out. Thx for your consideration.
I have a feeling Golurk might end up where it was last gen, the only thing that hit it hard as all hell, in the gen change, is that stupid Knock off Buff. . . Oh, the days of when Knock off was a laughable move. . .
I actually used Knock Off occasionally in Gen 5 to help break down stall. But I've actually toyed with the same set as LishousTV, except without the speed creep, and it has been inconsistent at best. It requires a lot of team support. Namely, Spikes, Knock Off users, Physically Defensive Vileplume, and Seismitoad must all be removed before Golurk can easily do a lot of damage.
I completely agree with lass geneviev. Someone made the point to me the other day that when the opposing slurpuff set becomes known, you simply switch into your check to that particular set. However, that is over centralising the meta far too much, when we have to start bringing two checks for the same pokemon in order to make sure it doesn't run us down, that seriously limits teambuilding options! For example you don't want to have to run both steelix and probopass for the sake of covering both bases!
So say slurpuff is banned, how do you think this will change the meta in terms of one of the few gurdurr checks being removed? Since gurdurr already sets up on threats such as swords dance Feraligatr, slurpuff and granbull are the only two reliable counters to it that I can think of, with togetic, spiritomb and vileplume being viable checks but not counters to it in my opinion, my feeling is that gurdurr will dominate NU if slurpuff is removed from the tier since after a bulk up it sponges physical hits from some of the hardest hitting physical attackers in the tier like Kangaskhan and Gatr, burning it doesn't help because of guts and the addition of knock off in gen 6 means nothing /wants/ to come in on it because nothing likes to lose an item.
Typed this on my phone so sentencing may be poor xD
I completely agree with lass geneviev. Someone made the point to me the other day that when the opposing slurpuff set becomes known, you simply switch into your check to that particular set. However, that is over centralising the meta far too much, when we have to start bringing two checks for the same pokemon in order to make sure it doesn't run us down, that seriously limits teambuilding options! For example you don't want to have to run both steelix and probopass for the sake of covering both bases!
So say slurpuff is banned, how do you think this will change the meta in terms of one of the few gurdurr checks being removed? Since gurdurr already sets up on threats such as swords dance Feraligatr, slurpuff and granbull are the only two reliable counters to it that I can think of, with togetic, spiritomb and vileplume being viable checks but not counters to it in my opinion, my feeling is that gurdurr will dominate NU if slurpuff is removed from the tier since after a bulk up it sponges physical hits from some of the hardest hitting physical attackers in the tier like Kangaskhan and Gatr, burning it doesn't help because of guts and the addition of knock off in gen 6 means nothing /wants/ to come in on it because nothing likes to lose an item.
Typed this on my phone so sentencing may be poor xD
So the best Gurdurr counter is still in the tier, aka Granbull. And if supported with wish support Granbull can switch in multiple times on Gurdurr. If Slurpuff stays I could see Gurdurr running poison jab to counter the cupcake, put some purple icing on top.
So the best Gurdurr counter is still in the tier, aka Granbull. And if supported with wish support Granbull can switch in multiple times on Gurdurr. If Slurpuff stays I could see Gurdurr running poison jab to counter the cupcake, put some purple icing on top.
While its main counter still remains, for me, one solid counter to a pokemon is not enough! Since that leaves you either being forced to bring granbull or you have to rely on vileplume 3 or 4hko'ing it with sludge bomb (just a guess, I'll do calcs later) or wearing it down with spiritomb which honestly, gurdurr will beat every time 1 on 1.
In regards to poison jab gurdurr, I had this discussion with Hollywood iirc and we felt that gurdurr's standard set is what makes it work and disrupting that with poison jab means dropping either Mach punch or bulk up (both i feel are necessary). Do you predict that slurpuff staying would therefore cause a drop in gurdurr's overall effectiveness in trade for being able to handle slurpuff that bit easier?
While its main counter still remains, for me, one solid counter to a pokemon is not enough! Since that leaves you either being forced to bring granbull or you have to rely on vileplume 3 or 4hko'ing it with sludge bomb (just a guess, I'll do calcs later) or wearing it down with spiritomb which honestly, gurdurr will beat every time 1 on 1.
In regards to poison jab gurdurr, I had this discussion with Hollywood iirc and we felt that gurdurr's standard set is what makes it work and disrupting that with poison jab means dropping either Mach punch or bulk up (both i feel are necessary). Do you predict that slurpuff staying would therefore cause a drop in gurdurr's overall effectiveness in trade for being able to handle slurpuff that bit easier?
I think that as of right now Gurdurr is something that Slurpuff likes to come in on and set up. I would agree its best sweeping set is still BU, Knock off, Mach, Drain. But people might randomly throw it on to not get set up on by puff, which as of right now is a plague to well constructed teams whose walls are weakened. Also Plume is a pretty decent counter/check because it can moonlight and kill with sludgebomb even possibly getting the poison (activating guts) to finish it off faster. And with its item knocked off (which a lot of ppl tend to do right away) knock off isnt going to win that battle. 4 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
As far as some checks/counters go for Gurdurr (minus Granbull and Plume)
Dragalge, Garbodor, Bulk Up Gogoat with leech seed and horn leech, Gourgeist with leech seed (knock off still hurts a bit), Malamar, Mespirit, Mismagius (can kill with dazzling gleam at +2 iirc), Pelipper, Qwilfish, Crotomb, Swellow,
I bolded two that I have had good success using as a fighting counter.
hihihi, I'm here to announce another vote that will be taking place soon. It's overdue, and people have been complaining about it for quite awhile, but the NU council will be voting on Combusken very shortly. We will be announcing the people voting on Combusken pretty soon, so use this thread to discuss Combusken and its effect on the NU metagame!
Combusken needs to go. It's dominating the ladder, it's dominating NUPL, and it dominates the PS NU room tournaments. There are stops to it, such as Haze Murkrow, but then you'll have to be assuming everytime you have a battle that they will have a Combusken. People are being forced to use crap teams in attempt to counter Combusken pass, and then get blown out after their opponent had a normal team. It isn't healthy for the meta, and I know plenty of people who have stopped playing NU as it's just destroyed the experience. Xatu is a prime example of why Busken pass is broken. Xatu can run Stored Power, and what this means is that even though it's a special attacker and it has attack boosts, it still gets the boosts in its special attack. It definitely does not belong in NU.
(Also, allow me to show my post on the Viability thread below, as it furthers what I've said)
Combusken for A+.
I don't know how relevant this will be in the future, as personally I see Baton Pass being possibly suspected(which should lead to a majority ban), but Combusken is honestly the best utility in the tier at the moment.
Literally all you need on a consistent team is a Combusken with a good Quick Pass receiver, preferably Feraligatr for instant power, or Xatu to continue the boosts with Calm Mind and sweep with Stored Power. The team's format basically just needs to be (Combusken, Feraligatr, Xatu, Hazard Stacker, Spinner, and Filler. Any player that even has the slightest knowledge of how to play the tier should be able to have a consistent winning record with a team such as that.
Most people would say Combusken's main rival for Quick Passing is Gorebyss. While Gorebyss may have more boosts in one turn, Combusken's niche lies in supporting bulk. Some people have been using Swords Dance on Combusken, but Bulk Up is the superior option. Not only will it give Feraligatr more bulk to take hits on the pass in, it supports Xatu's potential Stored Power sweep that much more(obviously it won't be benefiting from the Attack boost.)
Quick Passing is so dominant and simple this generation, I feel like there's not much else to explain about it. Combusken simply takes on the whole tier with it's ability to not only pass off Bulk Up and speed boosts, but hell, it can even use Flare Blitz to throw huge hits when your opponent is expecting a protect, boosting move, or a pass. Fire Punch is also an obvious alternative, so it depends on what you prefer for your set personally.
It really defines the tier and deserves nothing less of A+ as long as Baton Pass is still allowed.
combusken is a gay broken piece of shit and is ruining the tier
Seriously Combusken has awesome typing that lets it check and set up Bulk Up and Swords Dance on a lot of the metagame including some of the biggest threats (Spiritomb and Shiftry) while gathering free Speed boosts thanks to its awesome ability. Its Eviolite boosted bulk is really respectable when invested (and it is not like it needs speed Evs) to the point that it can get a boost even on some Water-types in a pinch (for example standard seismitoad struggles to 2HKO specially defensive spreads with Scald lol).
Setting up a sweep is also really easy in Nu as Xatu is pretty much the perfect receiver as it complements pretty well type wise, can't be statused or Phazed out by roar and whirlwind (those are the traditional ways to deal with Combusken), can continue boosting with Calm Mind, and has a very strong STAB move in Stored Power. This strategy can only be stopped by some Substitute users like Mismagius or by Dragon Tail users such as Dragalge and Rhydon and some Pokemon that usually don't run phazing moves like Roar Granbull who can take the Combusken user by surprise. Not to mention that passing to other pokemon Feraligatr or Kangaskhan (that can also work even if they don't receive the quickpass) is possible too and those are equally if not more threatening thanks to their bulk that makes them very priority resilient and almost impossible to revenge Kill with the Speed they receive
As an additonal proof Combusken pass has also been used with GREAT effect in the NUPL and has decided two games basically confirming how broken the strategy is.
Ok so Combusken is plain retarded. Passing boosts to Xatu is 100% braindead and requires pretty much no skill or anything. The chicken from hell can set up on so many offensive and defensive pokemon (obvious things like Shiftry and Spiritomb, but also things like Seismitoad, as mentioned above) and all it needs is 1 switchin on a pivot move/sac. From then it can boost incredibly quickly - if you switch out you're basically giving it +1 Atk/+1 Def/+2 Spe. Xatu obviously plays a big part in this core, preventing shit like Roar from affecting you, effectively removing phazing as an answer to BP. Other potential answers include priority, but sorry, Combusken passes defense boosts and Sucker Punch is pretty much worthless against BP. Taunt users get protected on and while Combusken can only pass +1 speed after that it's still incredibly easily gained advantage.
Everybody knows everything about it already, it's a very simple strategy that unfortunately works all too well for its own good.
-once it gets going it's almost impossible to stop
-it only needs 1 turn to get going so you better run only mons that Combusken can't set up on which is uhhhhh, 6 offensive water/rock/ground types? nice team
-overall uncompetitive, gives its user too big of an advantage with no skill required
I didn't even know people used Combusken, and I've played loads in the ladder in the past week.
Anyways, I watched zeb play like five games with chicken pass on the upper ladder, and it just seemed like a solid team to me. I really don't see it getting many opportunities to set up against offensive teams. The only real -problem- I see with it is that passing to Xatu shits all over stall, but in general, stall isn't very good in this metagame anyways. I have a really solid stall team, and it gets shit on by this strategy, but again, that's because of Xatu. My stall team already struggles with Xatu anyways because the only things I have that can beat it reliably is Uxie, which is Spiritomb bait (and is really common). I mean like Uxie can set up alongside Xatu on that team archetype, but I'm sure that with Stored Power, Roost, and some defensive boosts from Combusken to help it take Psyshocks, Uxie probably loses.
The only other reason (other than Xatu) that this strategy could be considered broken is that it's very anti-meta. Spiritomb is really common and can't do shit to Combusken. The same can be said about Shiftry, Pawniard, and Vileplume. But being anti-metagame doesn't mean that something is broken; it means that people need to adapt. This strategy hasn't even been around long. Let's give it more time in the metagame for people to try to adjust their teams to beat it rather than banning it right away. This wasn't such a big deal with Sigilyph because even with the metagame adapting, it was still arguably broken. But we don't need to rush bans. If people try to adapt around Combusken and still find it broken, we can look at it again later.
The argument that Combusken is overcentralizing is really silly because, again, it hasn't even been popular for very long.
So can we all calm the fuck down? Of course Combusken is really good in a meta filled with things it can set up on. Let the meta adapt.
Ok so Combusken is plain retarded. Passing boosts to Xatu is 100% braindead and requires pretty much no skill or anything. The chicken from hell can set up on so many offensive and defensive pokemon (obvious things like Shiftry and Spiritomb, but also things like Seismitoad, as mentioned above) and all it needs is 1 switchin on a pivot move/sac. From then it can boost incredibly quickly - if you switch out you're basically giving it +1 Atk/+1 Def/+2 Spe. Xatu obviously plays a big part in this core, preventing shit like Roar from affecting you, effectively removing phazing as an answer to BP. Other potential answers include priority, but sorry, Combusken passes defense boosts and Sucker Punch is pretty much worthless against BP. Taunt users get protected on and while Combusken can only pass +1 speed after that it's still incredibly easily gained advantage.
Everybody knows everything about it already, it's a very simple strategy that unfortunately works all too well for its own good.
-once it gets going it's almost impossible to stop
-it only needs 1 turn to get going so you better run only mons that Combusken can't set up on which is uhhhhh, 6 offensive water/rock/ground types? nice team
-overall uncompetitive, gives its user too big of an advantage with no skill required
Just wanna add that while Xatu is indeed a fantastic partner for Combusken to prevent Pokemon from using Roar and ruining your day (doesn't prevent Dragon Tail / Circle Throw, but few Pokemon run that outside of Bulky Dragalge and Rhydon), it is not necessary to run it to abuse Combusken. Unlike Gorebyss, Combusken is easier to fit on teams as it is a great check to some popular Pokemon right now too (it's a good check to Pawniard, Vileplume, and Shiftry) and only needs one or two recipient to work at its best potential (Feraligatr and Kangaskhan are the more popular ones due to their amazing natural bulk and speed, but a lot of Pokemon would enjoy the boosts that Combusken is passing). It is also quite bulky as stated above, meaning it can even set up on Pokemon like Seismitoad if it Bulk Up as it comes in, for exemple.
Now obliviously Combusken does have 'answers' such as Haze, Taunt, Roar / Whirlwind (if opponent doesn't have a Xatu), Perish Song, and Dragon Tail / Circle Throw users. The main problem with those is that the Combusken user can either prevent most of these by adding more teammates to support it (Xatu), or doesn't even have to cover those answers as they are literally inexistent in the tier (pretty much nothing runs Perish Song or Haze these days lol).
So yeah I think Combusken or BP + Speed Boost needs to go.
EDIT: Forgot to add that Combusken also gives a lot of pressure to your opponents and to their plays; I know that the same could be said for other set up sweepers, but Combusken has the ability to Baton Pass its boosts if you were to bring in a Pokemon able to win one-on-one against it. This pretty much means that if you were to use a Pawniard, Shiftry, or a Vileplume (there's more, this is an exemple), you would be pressured to not bring them in as much as you would want to in fear of giving the opponent's Combusken a free boost.
So far the one thing that has stood out as a good counter to BP is Rhydon. It has Roar to phase out combusken and if it tries to pass into something like Xatu with magic bounce it can hit it SE with rock blast. However if the rock blast doesnt kill then you are in a bad position vs a very real and very dangerous threat. Also Dtail licky is a good stop to xatu as it can take the first hit and dtail out. The problem is that Combusken can come in and just do it again.
Just some quick thoughts on the ways I have seen to beat it.
Combusken itself is not broken in my opinion, its ability to pass incredible stat boosts and offensive capabilities to pokemon otherwise incabable of boosting these stats by themselves, is the broken part.
However, I digress since this is a discussion about the actual effect combusken's presence has on the NU metagame so I'll share my thoughts. The mere sight of combusken in team preview is scary, since you're automatically planning your strategy of how to counter it if it does start to set up, after being destroyed by this at least once, you make sure your teams in future have a way if dealing with this threat. Hence, over centralising the current meta when you're forced to bring something just for the sole purpose of countering the inevitable combusken. Not to mention, combusken's preferred stab move, fire punch, allows it to OHKO (at +2 i think) a max defence ferroseed which is a commonly chosen check to the ever present BP recipients such as gatr, kanga and klinklang. This to me means that there isn't really one solid check even to the whole combusken team concept, and with combusken's ability to retain HP through its bulk, it can come in several times during a game to pass off stats, at worse, it simply protects and passes some added speed to an already powerful Feraligatr. This means that teams must bring not only one, but more checks to the individual common BP recipients resulting in teams that possibly lack synergy at the expense of stopping one tactic, and frankly, the combusken user can simpy choose which recipient to go into to get around the checks the opponent has brought.
In response to montsegur, I dont want to have to put dtail Licky on every team just for this! Definition of over centralisation right there.
tl;dr consider whether it's the concept or the pokemon itself we're so fearsome of.
Combusken stop making me make terrible teams just to stop you -_-
In gen 5 we had a speed boost + pass ban, I know soulgazer already mentioned this but we should consider this again, since combusken itself is not broken in my opinion, its ability to pass incredible stat boosts and offensive capabilities to pokemon otherwise incabable of boosting these stats by themselves, is the broken part.
We also really don't need to do this. Ninjask isn't broken at all, and it's a part of the metagame as well. The reason why Combusken is good is because it can utilize its typing to set up on some Pokemon that are really common in the metagame. So if we do end up banning anything, Combusken would undoubtedly be the better choice.
In gen 5 we had a speed boost + pass ban, I know soulgazer already mentioned this but we should consider this again, since combusken itself is not broken in my opinion, its ability to pass incredible stat boosts and offensive capabilities to pokemon otherwise incabable of boosting these stats by themselves, is the broken part.
EDIT 2: Just wanna say that while Speed Boost + BP seems like a good solution, it's a complex ban and might create a precedent so it will probably not happen lol (yes I know I suggested it ). It will also nerf Ninjask even more lmao
In gen 5 we had a speed boost + pass ban, I know soulgazer already mentioned this but we should consider this again, since combusken itself is not broken in my opinion, its ability to pass incredible stat boosts and offensive capabilities to pokemon otherwise incabable of boosting these stats by themselves, is the broken part.
In response to montsegur, I dont want to have to put dtail Licky on every team just for this! Definition of over centralisation right there.
tl;dr consider whether it's the concept or the pokemon itself we're so fearsome of.
Combusken stop making me make terrible teams just to stop you -_-
I agree that it is over centralizing if you have to put something on your team just to counter something. I was just giving some ideas of ways to counter combusken pass that are actually viable as opposed to like Soulgazer said haze murkrow.
Also I believe you couldnt actually get speed boost and baton pass on Combusken last gen so there never was a ban for it. (Got sniped by SoulGazer)
We also really don't need to do this. Ninjask isn't broken at all, and it's a part of the metagame as well. The reason why Combusken is good is because it can utilize its typing to set up on some Pokemon that are really common in the metagame. So if we do end up banning anything, Combusken would undoubtedly be the better choice.
This might be getting into too complex of a ban by smogon standards, but I think we should just ban baton pass on Combusken. I have seen some people use Combusken without baton pass and it still seems decent. Obviously it is Combusken with speed boost and baton pass which is broken and not Ninjask which is why I suggest banning just BP on Combusken.
I don't think Speed Boost + Baton Pass ban is very good. It's essentially banning Combusken, but also making Ninjask worse than it already is which isn't necessary.
). It will also nerf Ninjask even more lmao
