In addition, your points are clearly wrong.
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Resource RU Viability Ranking
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Isn't that the point? That it cant switch into a +2 doublade. Arguably the best fire type in the tier can only check Doublade. I made the argument for Doublade for S a while back and it didnt get much support then but now I think people are realizing it should be S.
Doublade is S, ye.
Ive actually used a subtoxic doublade with lefties on the ladder, and imo its actually working great. His staying power is massively improved by switching from a offensive tool to a defensive one (ie he is no longer an sd win condition for my stall team; i have a kawaii gletchinder for that)
ye granted, its mostly inferior and more passive than the regular doublade, but he hasn't disappointed me. Its a bit like subtox aegis just with protect instead of kings and shadow claw over shafow ball nd stuff.
Ive actually used a subtoxic doublade with lefties on the ladder, and imo its actually working great. His staying power is massively improved by switching from a offensive tool to a defensive one (ie he is no longer an sd win condition for my stall team; i have a kawaii gletchinder for that)
ye granted, its mostly inferior and more passive than the regular doublade, but he hasn't disappointed me. Its a bit like subtox aegis just with protect instead of kings and shadow claw over shafow ball nd stuff.
OMG you kill a physically frail pokemon with a super effective STAB move at +2 it should definitely be S rank!
Listen kid, even at +2 Doublade gets easily revenge killed by anything that has decent bulk and takes neutral damage from Shadow Sneak:
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 145-172 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO
2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 193-228 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 181-214 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 129-153 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
None of this pokes have outstanding bulk and they don't even have ev investment in defenses so saying that you can't revenge kill Duoblade is an invalid argument and while I haven't tried Sub-Toxic Doublade I would say it is inferior to the standard one, needs cleric support and it's crippled by Knock off making it an inferior option to standar SD doublade.
Anyways enough of this one lined posts, let's talk about something that should prolly go up:
B+ ----> A-/A
Drapion is a very underrated poke in today's meta with a lot of different yet equally viable options. First let's start with stats: base 90 attack with a great base 95 speed makes a great physical sweeper and with a wide movepool consisting of gems such as Earthquake and Knock off Drapion can easily sweep unprepared teams and can outspeed a lot of dangerous stuff like Yanmega and Hitmonlee. If you don't think this is enough Drapion is a surprisingly bulky poke with a base 110 defense meaning that it won't get revenge killed easily. It cal also act as a support pokemon thanks to the after mentioned defense and an interesting typing that allows it to switch into Psychic types and Grass types and with a plethora of support moves such as Whirlwind, Taunt and Toxic Spikes and it can pursuit trap things like Delphox and Meloetta
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Can we add s minus and s plus since when doublade moves up to s I think it will be a bit clearly better than say Rhyperior? Just a suggestion I know there are more important things to waste time on first.
well, yea, but you wouldnt use subtox doublade outside of stall so.. you should carry cleric support by default.
with that said, after 50 games with its still never gotten burned, only parad once from a nuzzle pikachu lol, and its immune to tox so. Yea.
with that said, i agree with drapion. Hes an amazing stallbreaker.
Edit; oh and i find plus nd minus ranks in S to be pretty redundant.. if i remember BW ru correct there was like 2 S rank mons im each od the three options... S rank aint got a big enough representation imo
What's with all the goddamned shitposts
So with some rock support yanmega is dead unless you get a low roll. Also even Specs Tinted Lense Yanmega isnt killing Doublade from full. Jolteon usually runs life orb and absorbing hits from your special wall and having rocks up means it gets below 83% pretty fast. And its dumb to set up first turn anyways so the fact that you are implying just because it cant always sweep from first turn it isnt S is a terrible argument. Emboar is an alright check to Doublade but 252 Atk Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 180-212 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO it isnt killing Doublade in one hit so a shadow claw shadow sneak combo will finish it off. Also a resisted base 40 hit even at +2 isnt going to kill anything from full no matter how frail it is. Sharpedo is a good check to Doublade if it is special.
There are very few checks/counters that cant be taken care of with some stealth rock support. Also Doublade has enough bulk to take a hit from things like Emboar and kill it and continue on with the sweep.
So in your fantasy world Swords Dances are free? Even with the amazing typing that Doublade has, it will rarely get a free Swords dance if you are facing a good player (if you disagree I invite you to post two matches were Doublade gets an absolutely free SD AND has SR on the field) also what kind of Emboar doesn't run LO or CB?
The calcs should be something like this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 290-344 (90 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Emboar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 359-424 (111.4 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yanmega can run Shadow Ball instead of Giga Drain to take care of Doublade and even if it doesn't Air Slash deals 80% to Doublade iirc and please don't say "If rocks are up" as an argument for a S rank pokemon, S rank pokemon require little to no support to work and Rocks + Removal of physical walls is more than little imo don't get me wrong, Doublade is a fantastic pokemon but S seems a little too much for me especially with low SpD, low speed, weak to common moves, lack of recovery, etc. But we could always put the +S and -S ranks so kids could have Doublade in S.
In my fantasy world its called forcing a switch and Swords dancing on the switch. And also a majority of people set up rocks on the first turn, and if you are having trouble setting up rocks you are doing it wrong. Also I consider SR to be little support seeing as how every good team has them.
Also being insulting because someone disagrees with you is a pretty immature way to discuss things.
A lot of what you're saying seems to be "Doublade has some checks/counters, there for it is not S rank." However, Doublade is a reason a lot of these major counters are put on teams they normally wouldn't be on if Doublade were not there to threaten the team. The reason Yanmega, another viable threat, runs Shadow Ball or HP Fire on its Speed Boost in the first place is mainly to hit Doublade. Doublade is often seen as a major threat to most teams and must be taken in to consideration whenever one is teambuilding. Doesn't this large presence on the metagame earn it a spot in S?
Edit: btw, 4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 62-74 (19.2 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
Edit: btw, 4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 62-74 (19.2 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
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Sorry if I looked like rude, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings and as I told you bring me two matches you had against good players were Doublade was at 100% HP and with +2 AND with his checks below half and then you can tell me Doublade gets SD easily.
For the love of God don't run speed boost on Yanmega since Tinted Lens is a million times better also I don't see how using a moveslot for a pokemon makes that pokemon S rank. For example Talonflame made things like Volcarona and Ape drop a full tier thanks to his mere presence and Talonflame isn't even S rank.
In my opinion, Doublade is really close to being S rank, but not quite there. The main reasons for this are the fact that it is still walled by common defensive Pokemon such as Alomomola even if it boosts, and its low Speed means that even a boosted Doublade isn't the biggest issue in the world for offensive teams as common threats like Moltres or the rarer Exploud can take a +2 Shadow Sneak and easily OHKO it. Also, while its Defense is absolutely insane, its abysmal Special Defense is quite a big hinderance, especially since it prevents it from being able to check threats such as Yanmega that its typing would otherwise let it wall without taking massive amounts of damage in the process. Also, Doublade is worn down easily thanks to its lack of any sort of recovery and from my experience doesn't hit /that/ hard due to its low base power moves, and No Guard is always a huge annoyance. However, Doublade is still a fantastic Pokemon that fits incredibly well onto basically any offensive team for its ability to hard wall a ton of threats such as Cobalion and Virizion and hit pretty hard in return, and if we had an S- rank, I would probably put it there since it's so metagame-defining and really close to being S rank.
Also: oml people make informed posts every once in a while it's not that hard
Also2: pls no lefties doublade thx
Also: oml people make informed posts every once in a while it's not that hard
Also2: pls no lefties doublade thx
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Alolmomola has actually been my counter for Doublade for quite a while, and if I dont get the scald burn
Edit:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145149934 just a quick example of how Mola is a shaky check if you dont get the burn. I thought I could of lived otherwise I would of protected and then I would of switched into Druddy, or something along those lines. Pretty much you can get unlucky with scald quite easily tbh.
Edit Edit: The replay also shows how Doublade can SD on the switch to my wall since Mew2 is clamoring for one. Also I have a pretty think skin was just some advice on how to get your opinion heard in a discussion.
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GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
Ok even though I disagree with Doublade for S, you are handling defending your position like an immature child. The point of this thread is for people to learn what is usually good and what is normally unadvisable. This isn't the thread to go around insulting users because they think differently than you. Mindless insults do not sway opposing opinions in arguments, so keep them to yourself. Not saying I haven't done it before but it's really unnecessary.
Onto my STANCE on doublade. Doublade has a ton going for it, having both an amazing offensive and defensive typing with a simple yet effective move pool to abuse this typing with. Not to mention its great attack and obscene defense further boosted by eviolite. From my experience, 2 Bladez is relatively easy to set up even WITH SR because it also has the perk of being a gr8 spinblocker. The main problems i feel dou blade have keeping it from S is it's lack of a really STRONG physical STAB, its terrible SDef, and it's lack of speed. Will post rest later if I remember on phone atm.
I never insulted him, I just used a bit more of sarcasm that the one I usually use. Notice how I never called him stupid, idiot, etc. I just said that his posts were wrong and I had no intention of hurting his delicate feelings also weren't you the guy who called Professional and me stupid because we wanted to ban Acupressure? (I think you are but hypocrites for ya). And again, sorry Montsegur it wasn't my intention to hurt you :]
Also I advice friends and foes to post at least ONE replay were your poke does work for example; Montesgur kept saying how easy was to get a free SD with certain characteristics yet he never posted a video showcasing his scenario and iirc Molk made a rule were you had to post at least one replay every time you nominated a poke (idk if everyone ignored that rule or it doesn't apply anymore) and I thought it was a good rule a the time so I want to post battles I made using Drapion because I nominated Drapion for A- in the previous page so here they are:
I basically throw a team of things I wanted to try yet never tried like CM LO Delphox or CB Braviary so not a serious team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145198551 <------ Late game Drapion sweep showing how he an break through pink stuff like Aromatisse and Amoonguss
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145200159 <------ Drapion knocking items off in mid game and making a late game sweep
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145201741 <----- Unfortunate no sweep because that 10% para chance hates me still you can notice the immense pressure Drapion applied to the opponent's team.
This is the set I was using:
Drapion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sniper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Taunt
After using this Drapion set, I can guarantee it works wonders as a pink slayer and can set up on many walls like Alomomola and Amoonguss. It also works best at late game when faster pokemon are down and I know this aren't the best replays but they should give you an idea of how this drapion set works. Also shiny drapion is sick as hell make it A- already.
Torn on Doublade on its S-Ranking. Its special bulk is indeed very exploitable, but its physical tanking prowess is unreal, and can just easily grab a Swords Dance on a good majority of physical attackers, most notably walling the muskedeers. In the event that it cannot boost, Doublade is still strong enough to simply throw out an attack against offensive checks such as Emboar and Exploud, and whittle them down in that fashion while it outlasts them easily due to its typing and bulk. Most physical responses cannot even take down a boosted Doublade effectively without risking a ton of damage in return. Even certain defensive checks can ocassionally falter against Doublade: Gligars that mistime their Roost against a second Swords Dance and Alomomolas that fail to burn with Scald can suddenly find themselves in a losing position. Also it is an awesome spinblocker for the most part. Nothing that can replicate Doublade's role(s) near as effectively: it hits hard, can tank hits, can boost, can check stuff with priority, and spinblock. A very real candidate for S imo.
Drapion on the other hand looks great on paper due to its combined traits, but in practice those traits don't seem to mesh as well as one would hope. 90 base Attack is okay but fairly weak without a boost, 95 speed is decent but not spectacular for an offensive threat that can't boost its speed; Drapion does have Agility, but it doesn't have the power to try a double boosting set. Base 110 Defense is nice, but it is weak to EQ and doesn't resist many notable physical attacks in general. In fact, its most useful resistances gravitate toward the special side (Ghosts and Psychics), but its special bulk is too low to effectively tank hits from them without investment (a problem when you consider SD Drapion needs all the offense it can get). Drapion is usable, but not as effective as it could have been, as its stats hold it back from achieving the overall versatility it otherwise could have had; ex: it would struggle to function as an effective sweeper should it try to respond to Psychic- / Ghost-attacks or stallbreak, and vice versa...The fact that it has access to all those sets is noteworthy, but the effectiveness of each individual set only extends so far, since it cannot feasibly operate more than one role at a time without completely jeopardizing the other(s). B+ seems fine.
Drapion on the other hand looks great on paper due to its combined traits, but in practice those traits don't seem to mesh as well as one would hope. 90 base Attack is okay but fairly weak without a boost, 95 speed is decent but not spectacular for an offensive threat that can't boost its speed; Drapion does have Agility, but it doesn't have the power to try a double boosting set. Base 110 Defense is nice, but it is weak to EQ and doesn't resist many notable physical attacks in general. In fact, its most useful resistances gravitate toward the special side (Ghosts and Psychics), but its special bulk is too low to effectively tank hits from them without investment (a problem when you consider SD Drapion needs all the offense it can get). Drapion is usable, but not as effective as it could have been, as its stats hold it back from achieving the overall versatility it otherwise could have had; ex: it would struggle to function as an effective sweeper should it try to respond to Psychic- / Ghost-attacks or stallbreak, and vice versa...The fact that it has access to all those sets is noteworthy, but the effectiveness of each individual set only extends so far, since it cannot feasibly operate more than one role at a time without completely jeopardizing the other(s). B+ seems fine.
Also, Rhyperior should be moved down from S rank to A+.
Mew2 do you have any idea what you're talking about? literally every single post you have made in the last two pages in this godforsaken thread gives me severe brain cancer. i am going to handpick said posts (barring the shitposts, anyway) and try and answer them without losing my mind in the process.
Crunch is literal garbage on any set considering Knock Off is going to be doing much more as a whole, even if it's not doing consistent damage the utility of Knock Off is too good to be wasting a moveslot that you could be using for something else.
hopefully i don't have to do something like this again but the amount of garbo in these posts is too much, quite frankly i dont think that doublade should be s either considering it gets shat on by a large portion of the special attackers in the tier but the points you've suggested are just plain wrong.
yes...he lacks recovery. i guess this is what all bulky sweepers need in order to succeed. and even if hitmonlee carries knock off, unless it manages to nail it on the switch, which can usually be seen coming from about 15 miles away, if doublade comes in safely then lee is getting assmongled regardless of whether or not doublade is losing its eviolite, and i dont think that losing your sweeper just to knock doublade's eviolite is worth it considering that offense generally has a fuck ton of better ways to deal with it (yanmega, zoroark, moltres). and what the fuck is bronzong going to do that prevents it from setting up on it? shadow ball?
Crunch is literal garbage on any set considering Knock Off is going to be doing much more as a whole, even if it's not doing consistent damage the utility of Knock Off is too good to be wasting a moveslot that you could be using for something else.
....I can't begin to explain this. In what way is Speed Boost bad, at all? I've used both abilities extensively and Speed Boost is key in letting Yanmega check things that would normally check it in return if it was using a Specs Tinted Lens set, i.e. Jolteon (if it's weakened a bit anyway, i understand you need to have a bit of prior damage), SE / HP Rock Virizion, Cinccino, Heliolisk. I understand that Tinted Lens is better as a wallbreaker and trucks through stall teams, but you have to remember the fact that Speed Boost is much better when facing offensively-oriented teams.
hopefully i don't have to do something like this again but the amount of garbo in these posts is too much, quite frankly i dont think that doublade should be s either considering it gets shat on by a large portion of the special attackers in the tier but the points you've suggested are just plain wrong.
I entirely disagree. Rhyperior's offensive and defensive presence in the RU tier is unmatched as a combination with its offensively great Ground/Rock-type and 140 Attack backed up by 115 HP and 130 Defense. That's some absolutely massive physical bulk right there. In terms of moves, STAB Earthquake is always great and it's got two Rock-type STABs to choose from: Stone Edge as a surefire hard hitter and Rock Blast to dismantle Substitute users. Sure, it has disappointing Special Defense and it's slow as shit, but it's one of the best AV users in the tier and most of all, AVPerior can take hits other variants can't, such as Heliolisk and Eelektross's Grass Knot. Let's not forget that with AV, Rhyperior shits all over Jolteon. Rhyperior can support its team with Stealth Rock, which breaks many powerhouses down, including Yanmega, Delphox and Moltres.
I believe all these virtues should keep Rhyperior in S-Rank.
Nominating Omastar for B+, this pokemon is great for HO teams as it has access to stealth rocks and spikes and if played right it almost always guarantees 1 set of spikes and a stealth rock up with the use of weak armor raising its speed making it a great suicide lead, it can also be a threat to ryperior who is a s tier threat with it's 115 base special attack as it outspeed ryerior
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 558-660 (128.5 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I run sash on it so if the oppoent tries to lead with a delphox to grass knot it I can threaten it out or it dies (unless hydro misses)
It's is also a threat to the A+ rank pokes as mola lets it get it's hazards up, moltres is OHKO'd, it guarantees the 2HKO on doublade stopping it from boosting
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 378-446 (117.7 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 193-228 (59.9 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 106-126 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can also be used on rain teams to sweep but Kabuptops outclasses it there.
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 558-660 (128.5 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I run sash on it so if the oppoent tries to lead with a delphox to grass knot it I can threaten it out or it dies (unless hydro misses)
It's is also a threat to the A+ rank pokes as mola lets it get it's hazards up, moltres is OHKO'd, it guarantees the 2HKO on doublade stopping it from boosting
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 378-446 (117.7 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 193-228 (59.9 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 106-126 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can also be used on rain teams to sweep but Kabuptops outclasses it there.
Did you even read my entire post? I said Lee would NEVER stay or come into a Doublade but he can predict the switch and knock off his eviolite crippling his walling capabilities and the bronzong was a plain mistake tbh.
I never said Crunch was better I just said it deals more after Doublade's eviolite has been knocked off.
People want Yamnega suspect and you know why? Not because shitty Speed Boost but because Choice Specs tinted lens that destroys the entire tier unless you are something like Registeel or Togetic. While Speed Boost isn't bad Tinted Lens is 200% better and any good player will agree with me. Now if you want to use a Speed Boost cleaner use Sharpedo who isn't x4 weak to SR and has mixed offenses. And if you really didn't know that I suggest you to use more Yanmega and stop calling my posts "shitty" especially when all my points were valid (except the Bronzong one I admit) case closed have a good day.
Doublade: It's not S-rank worthy, hell I don't even think it's an A+ rank worthy (which in my books is "almost S") imo, and I'm going to make this short. Doublade often wants to do too many things at once, it wants to check multiple Pokemon AND attempt to sweep all at once, and that's often not what happens. Checking a lot of Pokemon (pretty much any physical attacker without a super effective hit) gets it worn down pretty quickly, and the fact that it doesn't have any sort of passive recovery (see: unlike rhyperior) means it can't keep doing that throughout the entire match. I know Rhyperior can't check the Pokemon it checks for the same reason, but it can do it better because of the fact that it can have Leftovers. It's also literally got 1 set and that's the SD set. You can argue that it has a couple other sets like the one with Toxic (that I never saw before, mind you) and the one with Autotomize that I saw posted somewhere before, but the only real set it has is the Swords Dance set. Additionally, it's weak to Knock Off which is a pretty damn common move, and a move that the most common spinner, Hitmonlee, which Doublade is supposed to check/switch into, always carries. I know it still prevents Hitmonlee's spin, but Knock Off is still a lot for Doublade to take considering it removes something that's a reason why Doublade is good, Eviolite. It's also extremely slow and got pitiful SpD which means it won't be able to sweep too much when a special attacker with some bulk lives on the opposite team. Being weak to Knock Off also makes it weak to Dark which is a really common offensive type in the form of Sharpedo, Zoroark, and Pokemon like Shiftry.. which brings me to the next point: all the Pokemon in S and most of the Pokemon in A+ and A can seriously hurt Doublade with either a (super effective) STAB or a common coverage move that they carry.
So yeah.. multitasking is usually not a good thing to have on Pokemon since it can never excel in one thing if it has to do two things at once, and Doublade can't check a lot of physical attackers and then try to perform a sweep all at once, especially considering that it suffers from the same thing that Aegislash suffered earlier this generation in OU, even after Swords Dance Shadow Sneak is still weak because its a 40 bp move, and it's slow as shit. I know it's a fucking amazing spinblocker but it can't block defog, something that's really common alongside rapid spin nowadays, and while it doesn't moot the fact that it's a great spinblocker it still hurts it.
for these reasons Doublade shouldn't be S, and I would actually nominate it to drop down to A.
So yeah.. multitasking is usually not a good thing to have on Pokemon since it can never excel in one thing if it has to do two things at once, and Doublade can't check a lot of physical attackers and then try to perform a sweep all at once, especially considering that it suffers from the same thing that Aegislash suffered earlier this generation in OU, even after Swords Dance Shadow Sneak is still weak because its a 40 bp move, and it's slow as shit. I know it's a fucking amazing spinblocker but it can't block defog, something that's really common alongside rapid spin nowadays, and while it doesn't moot the fact that it's a great spinblocker it still hurts it.
for these reasons Doublade shouldn't be S, and I would actually nominate it to drop down to A.
If you're using AV Rhyperior, you're using it wrong. The only sets you should be using are Specially defensive, Rock Polish and maybe Choice Band. I also think Rhyperior should drop to A+. It's not as good as it once was in the earlier metas. Mons like Virizion, Gligar, Shiftry and Gurdurr have gotten very popular in this meta and Rhyperior has trouble dealing with those mons due to it's typing. Rhyperior still is one of the best SR setters on offensive teams but with the rise in usage for mons that Rhyperior has trouble dealing with I believe it should be dropped down to A+.
The same goes for Rhyperior, Delphox and Yanmega.
Rhyperior has access to Stealth Rock and is one of the best users of the move in the tier, Delphox is one of the most threatening Pokemon and something that all Stall teams have to have specific answers for, and Yanmega just destroys shit. the latter 2 are also not slow unlike Doublade.
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