Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[boo836]

I think that during the debate I had with levi on PS, I feel that it's somewhat necessary to fully explain the point in banning Fletchling. It is my personal belief that Fletchling is not broken. I will not argue that it is broken, but that it's an unhealthy presence in the metagame. Numerous players have noted countlessly the necessity of carrying multiple strong checks to Fletchling. Fletchling not only crushes a huge portion of the metagame, but does so almost always first. We have seen the rise of teams that use multiple Fletch checks to succeed. Archen wasn't even that popular until Fletchling became huge. Birdspam is easily the dominant playstyle in the metagame. This isn't merely because of Flying's great offensive coverage, but the mere fact that Fletchling is that goddamn good. I won't deny that Fletchling has great counters, nor will I say that Fletchling is impossible to beat. I have no issue with dealing with Fletchling. We don't judge whether something is banworthy or not based solely on counters or checks, but the impact it has on the metagame. Fletchling essentially snatches momentum in a way that priority users could not even remotely compare with. It's strongass attacks can wear down its checks, and even then it's easy to place a lot of pressure on those checks. For example, look at Fletchdig's rise. Is that true for other Pokemon like Zigzagoon? Absolutely. However, does Fletchling have the same drawbacks by requiring set up, difficulty with checks, and requiring nearly as much support to pull off? Absolutely not.

Normally, we treat brokenness as the primary reason behind banning. While it's certainly true that broken mons will cause centralization, it's also key to remember that brokenness is not the only thing that will lead to centralization. When Fletch is gone, will it greatly affect the metagame? I don't think that Fletch's checks will be as relevant if it is gone. Don't get me wrong, I think Archen and Chou will still have places in the metagame, but they won't be as commonly seen. Fletch has become a massively overcentralizing force, and in the interest of preventing the metagame from becoming stale, I suggest the removal of Fletch

To quote The Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame:

As they say, "Variety is the spice of life". And nowhere is that more true than in the world of gaming. Game makers discovered long ago that players crave diversity, change, and improvement. That's why most successful games are very broad, and are constantly adding new elements. For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities. By constantly striving for maximum variety, we can maximize the potential player base, which has the inevitable effect of increasing the number of good players, good strategies, and overall quality of competition. A varied metagame is fresh and exciting, and provides a constant source for investigation and discovery.

If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

Fletchling is FAR too limiting in competitive play to be legal. I'm a Fletchling abuser, I'm someone who lovs using Flechling, but even I think it's insane to keep it around, because its presence (and arguably, Missy's too) stagnates the metagame. At the very least, I'd propose we ban it for a month and revisit the ban to determine whether or not Fletchling belongs in LC, simply because of its special case.

 

[Sken]

I don't really think that Fletchling is broken because of 2 reasons: the first one is the moverpool. Fletchling has no viable offensive moves not called Acrobatics, U-Turn (that isn't really offensive, it is useful only to scout), and Overheat (very weak because of Fletch's low SpAtk stat base); and the second one is the low Attack base stat that Fletch has, that can't kill some things that kills super effectively:

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 204 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-24 (69.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

[gangsterish]

I agree that fletch is extremely strong and may deserve a ban (I don't care either way), but I think saying that fletch is uncheckable or still does a ton of damage to those checks is not true. Chinchou, Arcen, or any rock type barely get scratched by fletch in any way. I believe that banning it is reasonable because it takes almost no skill and can totally ruin momentum and game flow. I think it crafts the meta a little to much, but it is important to note that a couple other all ready popular mons will become increasingly powerful centralizing LC even more. What I mean by this is that Mienfoo, Foongus, Cotonee, and Timburr will become increasingly powerful. Foongus specifically will become insanely annoying in my eyes because while archen loses usage foongus will be ought to stop with the lack of fire types and flying after fletch is gone and archen wains. Spore will probably become one of the most frustrating moves in LC (even more so then now) and a large element of luck with the sleep will infect the meta. Cotonee will also become a major player without a top tier flying type and almost no special fire users (especially if vulpix drought gets the ban) then cotonne with cotton guard can wall almost anything. This cotonee idea is just a theory but a highly probable one in my opinion. It is however also very important to point out that a fletch ban frees up a lot of other mons that are weak to flying such as grass types, but these grass types still may have problems because many of them were inherently weak to begin with, which was part of why no one used them even with fletch around. Overall I think that fletch is unhealthy and annoying for the meta, but I think it is important to take into account the negative ramifications of a ban.

 

[Corporal Levi]

I believe that banning it is reasonable because it takes almost no skill and can totally ruin momentum and game flow.

How does using a single Pokemon take skill? I could see using a team or even a core taking "skill" in that risk vs reward, planning toward a win condition, and all that good stuff is necessary, but in a situation where there's one Pokemon facing another Pokemon, I don't see how anything could be more "skilled" than anything else; at best, I see a coinflip, which I wouldn't consider skill at all.

I think it crafts the meta a little to much, but it is important to note that a couple other all ready popular mons will become increasingly powerful centralizing LC even more. What I mean by this is that Mienfoo, Foongus, Cotonee, and Timburr will become increasingly powerful.

I don't really like the choice of wording of this, but the point still stands; regardless of what we ban, we can't expect a fully balanced metagame, as others have pointed out earlier. If Fletchling gets banned, other Pokemon will simply rise to fit its place. Overcentralization has been used as the reason for banning in the past, but every competitive team should have at least a check to valid offensive threats; if such a check isn't even necessary, then this offensive threat probably won't be very threatening at all, and probably blatantly unviable. The question is where we draw the line between simply being an actually decent offensive threat and too overcentralizing for the metagame to handle, and I do not think Fletchling is any more necessary to run a check for, and do not think its checks are any less viable in the metagame than, say, Zigzagoon or Tirtouga.
I would consider Misdreavus over this line because of how few and far between its possible checks are, compared to Fletchling.

 

[boo836]

I know that a completely uncentralized metagame is nearly impossible. On that same token however, we should definitely be trying to decentralize the meta as much as possible. Devoting one teamslot to a useless Swirlix check was considered awful for the meta, same with Krow and countless other things. So, why can't it be considered ridiculous when teams are being forced to run multiple dedicated fletch checks? That doesn't seem reasonable at all.

Just because we cannot fully decentralize the metagame, it does not mean that we should refuse to ban something. Otherwise, we might as well place the LC Ubers back in.

Also, curious as to what people think about this:

At the very least, I'd propose we ban it for a month and revisit the ban to determine whether or not Fletchling belongs in LC, simply because of its special case.

 

[Corporal Levi]

My point is that Fletchling checks are so numerous and viable on their own that banning Fletchling won't actually help that much in such a regard, not to the point that the metagame would see significantly less centralized usages; it's not like Chinchou and Tirtouga are awful Pokemon outside of beating Fletchling, anyway, and there are so many Fletchling checks to choose from that it simply doesn't feel as if Fletchling is actually over the top in terms of centralization. Of course being unable to fully decentralize the metagame isn't the best of reasons, but banning Fletchling might not actually be a step in the right direction.
As for your proposal, it's interesting for sure, but something this unprecedented seems strange, because I don't see how Fletchling's case is actually that special; we're still just voting on whether a Pokemon is too overcentralizing for LC. More importantly, I don't really think the metagame will change as drastically as it's being made out to be, because if we compare it to the current metagame, Pokemon such as Chinchou, Archen and Tirtouga that beat Fletchling will still retain their numerous other advantages, and Fletchling doesn't even come close to totally shutting down whatever is weak to it, considering how we're seeing Pokemon that lose to Fletchling still being absolutely wonderful right now, such as Foongus and Timburr.

 

[gangsterish]

Everyone is going to want to jump on the fletch banwagon (see what I did there), but I think from my own personal experiences, where I don't run fletch checks/counters I ended up not getting fletch swept. I think the fair thing to do is give fletch a trial and not an immediate ban and then after that given testing time period we can make a final decision. I just don't think a straight ban is smart seeing as there is no general consensus on the matter.

"At the very least, I'd propose we ban it for a month and revisit the ban to determine whether or not Fletchling belongs in LC, simply because of its special case."
Agreeing with this from boo836^

 

[boo836]

They used to do something similar, except they discluded/included the pokemon on the suspect ladder instead of the standard one. What I'm suggesting isn't straying too far from that, but instead of dividing it into two ladders that wouldn't have enough players between them to still have developing metagames, we have enough to see whether Fletch belongs in the meta, enough time to observe the metagame, while waiting less time for a change if the ban is undesirable or unnecessary.

 

[Eren Yeagar]

Going to make this short and sweet. The " Fletch Banwagon"(very funny gangsterish -_-)as gangsterish said is people that just dont like fletch. Sure,fletch is a threat with a kind of good movepool and swords dance and gale wings. Fletch is very debatable if it's banworthy. There are so many checks to fletch ,but fletch does counter a lot of pokes. If fletch gets banned, the metagame will be more unstaple than it is now.The downside if fletch is banned is clorodrought will be very threatening and an upside is more pokemon get some time to shine that fletch hindered.

I also agree with boo836 and gangsterish about a one month demo of fletch being banned.

 

[Artemisa]

Just to point out on the Archen thing, that mon had and still has other uses besides fletch. I've used to it to check/counter Larvesta / Yanma / Gligar / Murkrow / Bunnelby / Taillow / Fletch / Porygon / Vullaby / Munchlax / Spritzee etc. I feel certain people popularized it. After laddering a shitload using various teams and battling I personally feel the players control what is used or not. Team after team looked all the same to me, and you can't really change that. I didn't see a Lileep / Snubbul / Honedge / not that many defensive tirtougas / Frillish / some porygons / 1 bronzor / licki / Tyrunts / Onix / shieldons ( I might be stretching it here) Hippopotas / mantyke / growlithe etc. I'm pretty sure there is more to add, but its fucking midnight. People don't bother to look outside the spectrum, it's like all they know is Fletch / pawn / missy / mien / filler / filler. This is why I think people are just throwing the made up word "overcentralization" everywhere. If you ban fletchling it will still be the dull same metagame. This isn't theory though, just look at the past bans and their effects post-ban. Fletchling is an amazing pokemon, that overshadows most bird mons and that's ok. Ponyta overshadows most fire types / Chinchou most water types / Foongus most grass / Spritzee most faires / Mienfoo most fighting / Trubbish most poison / Pawn most darks / etc. That shit is normal in LC, and there isn't one magic pokemon that can "uncentralize" the whole meta. There will always be a top 3 in LC and you can't stop that.

 

[Brosb4Ho-ohs]

If Fletchling is banned it would logically be fair to have comparable brokeness to other LC Uber Pokemon. We all agree that Swirlix, Sneasel, Murkrow, etc, were all broken in their respective ways. But does Fletchling come close or has fast, strong, or diverse as the latter? Murkrow for example, could almost always get past it’s checks and counters by running a variety of sets such as LO 4 attacks, Banded, Subthief, CM+Featherdance, and it had the power and speed to properly abuse all of these sets. But, can Fletchling do this? Fletchling can only run two viable sets, being in mixed attacker, or physical sweeper, and each set trades coverage. Sets lacking overheat/hp ground/apicot berry are weak to opposing steel types and sets lacking steel wing, are weak to rock types. Its lack of versatility can often lead to it being checked with little to no difficulty. And even so, it lacks the power to abuse the moveset it already has, unlike other LC Uber Pokemon. Misdreveus on the other hand, is closer. It can get by it checks/counters more easily without trading coverage, and although unable to go mixed, its move pool is full of great coverage in dazzling gleam, thunderbolt, power gem, and psychic just to name a few. And unlike fletchling it can run alot of move sets like Choice Specs, Subplot, Defensive Painsplit, Taunt Lead, LO 4 attacks, Cleric, etc

 

[Fra71]

I'm thinking a thing again and again for... a week.
I talked with my friends and I come at one point.
This metagame is beautiful. Better than Murktite or Sneasel's or Tangela's, at least. I'm thinking to not ban Fletchling nor Misdreavus (very good Pokémons, but no broken at all), because the LC need these. This meta is pretty good imo, nothing deserve a ban.
At the very least I think banning the almost overused ChloroDrought is the *coff coff* good *coff coff* choice. Way too powerful, and way too fast, only the priorities or waiting for the sun to disappear (or change the weather) can save you from a Vulpix + Chlorophyll abuser(s) sweep (or loss of 1/2 of your team) IMHO.

 

[brizz]

I am not completely sure whether this has been already said or not, but still...

I think that banning Fletchling would lead to a "sun offense spam". I mean, .burd is by far one of the most powerful answers offensive teams have to stop the infamous Vulpix + Bellsprout. As I could see on the ladder, this is not very popular at the moment, but I think it definitely will if we ban Fletchling.
I'm not saying that sun offense is overpowered or something, I just think that it would be harder for offensively oriented team to stop that specific archetype. Defensive teams have few chances too, anyway...(the only effective Bellsprout counter I could come up with is Porygon...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong n_n)

The banning of Misdreavus would be negative as well, in my opinion. Everybody know how cheap is the Memento + Belly Drum tactic right now...and well, Ghost-types are by far the best answer to Zigzagoon (most Rock/Steel types are easily trapped by Diglett AND they also have to deal with the aforementioned Fletchling). I do realize that something like defensive Tirtouga still stands a chance against Zigzagoon, along with the fact that Misdreavus can be trapped as well, but I don't see why we should buff those "unfair" tactics (just for the sake of a more diverse metagame, I'd say).

I've had quite of a sudden mind-change since the previous post, I admit it lol

(ok, I'm finished with these "standalone" posts, I'll try to discuss with other people from now on n_n)

 

[Celticpride]

I got the reqs for the suspect, so what is the timeframe now? When do I have to vote by and what do I have to vote on? Just confused because this suspect test functions differently then others.

 

[Sken]

I completely agree Corporal Levi.

 

[The Avalanches]

I'm gonna save a lot of my thoughts for the suspect thread, but I'm once again on the fence about Fletchling. I've seen some good arguments for it to be banned and to stay, but we certainly have to ask ourselves whether a meta without Fletchling will cause Chloro-Drought to become overpowering. Will the meta be stable with or without Fletchling? I believe boo386's suggestion of a probationary ban holds some weight.

 

[Slashari]

I got the reqs for the suspect, so what is the timeframe now? When do I have to vote by and what do I have to vote on? Just confused because this suspect test functions differently then others.

Another thread will be created later today where you nominate 3 things you want suspected. The 2 things that get the most votes will be suspect tested by the council, but those not on the council can provide their input on the subject.

I also really like the idea of a temporary ban to see what the effect is on the meta, but I'm not sure if that's possible.

 

[boo836]

Complaints that Chlorodrought is broken without Fletch just reinforces the idea of how limiting Fletch is in this metagame.

If it will be that bad, then we will ban Chlorodrought along with Fletch. Two wrongs have never made a right lol.

 

[Moral Nihilism]

I am fine with that x)

 

[Eren Yeagar]

I still think that fletchling should have a one month demo of being banned. We dont know what the new meta would be if fletch was banned. Who knows, it might be better or might be worse. That's why we need to do a demo- to see what's going to be hindered and uprised since fletch is a big threat in LC.

 

[tcr]

I still think that fletchling should have a one month demo of being banned. We dont know what the new meta would be if fletch was banned. Who knows, it might be better or might be worse. That's why we need to do a demo- to see what's going to be hindered and uprised since fletch is a big threat in LC.

we NEVER know what the new meta will be. Regardless if the outcome is good or bad it irrelevant. Everything banned is banned for a reason, and you don't see things like sneasel being unbanned just so Tangela or Ynama could stay in the tier. "Sneasel shouldn't be banned bc if it is then Yanma and Tangela willl rule the tier." If things become a problem then they will be banned next metagame / suspect test. I really don't think you guys get this. There is more than one suspect test, and that keeping something in the tier just bc something else might become broken or centralizing or whatever is a stupid as fuck philosophy. If its broken its broken. People crying for "we need a demo we dk what the meta will be like" just sound uninformed at this point.

 

[aman2420]

In all honesty, even though I haven't made the coil yet, I have a few important things to say. First, Misdreavus should be moved up to ubers. Misdreavus is a reason why pawniard is so centralized in the metagame. Second, I think there should just be a ban on the knock off + Pawniard combination, due to there not being this kind of problem with any other pokemon using knock off, and as well as Pawniard is perfect in its place atm. Third, I think that Fletch is one of those pokemons that if there was a lc ou, would be in between ou and uber, too weak to be forced upon uber, but too strong to the point where there should be consideration upon it. Fourth, the next test should be for vulpix/bellsprout/bulbasaur, at least a test to see if they will be banned upon being on the same team, maybe all of them into ubers for lc. Finally, there needs to be lc for each of the standard tiers like ou/uu/ru/nu. I know there is lc uber and regular lc, but having more seperation would hopefully make everything balanced for the most part.

 

[Goldland]

In terms of overcentralizing, i would say the answer is quite obvious for what pokemon really centralizes the meta at the moment, and that would be Pawniard. A lot of people running Substitute and HP Fighting over dazzling gleam on many pokemon like Abra or dreavus, it's self-evident on the ammount of centralizing it can do. It's stab knock off and sucker punch, along with the possibility of running all the 3 main items and an excellent defensive typing for the current meta. There is not a single team in the meta that you can't just throw pawniard in it and be successful as it's priority stab gets rid of many of other faster threats and setups of the meta, and scarf knock off is obviously the fastest and strongest knock off there is, which no one really likes to take it. Defiant also makes him one of the strongest pokemon against sticky webs, intimidate and memento users.
The possibility of running STAB pursuit makes him one of the most dangerous pokemon to switch out if he's checking you, and psycho cut can seriously put you into trouble if you rely on a fighting type to check/counter him, and also other lesser common possibilities of running Swords Dance/Brick Break/Thunder Wave, which makes Pawniard potentially one of the most unpredictable pokemon on the meta, no1 really likes to switch into him because of knock off/thunderwave, and no one it checks really likes to switch out because of pursuit. This also makes the gameplay around him too much of a flip coin, in which you'll have to risk one or more 50/50 most times to check him.
One thing is for certain, he might not have the sweep potential other pokemon have because it'll always lack either speed or attack power to sweep a complete team, but he's certainly one of the most damaging and bigger threats to have into consideration while making any team, as he functions like a speed barrier for which he really can readily outspeed any pokemon in the tier while knocking your items for most of the game.
His only fault is trully the lack for a reliable recovery, because otherwise he would surelly be a uber by now, if he had drain punch over brick break, people would go mad xD

 

[LightningLuxray]

Alright, I'm going to be going over the two Pokemon I nominated and why I feel they should be looked at by the council.

Misdreavus: This thing is way, way, WAY to over-centralizing. Honestly, there are very few reasons not to run this on your team. It has great bulk, an amazing typing, a helpful ability that gives it a whopping three immunities, a expansive movepool that can help it beat its own counters, and Misdreavus can overall fill a lot of roles. I personally used the Nasty Plot set in order to spinblock on my Hyper Offensive team, but it can also run defensive set, too, which are really hard to take out. Also, this thing is literally on every other fucking team for the reasons I've stated... I'm pretty sure 1 out of every 4 games involved a Misdreavus speed tie, and that's not an over-exaggeration. It's just that fucking common, and like I said, for good reason: it has all the traits to be extremely successful in LC.

Pawniard: I'm a little bit more split on this Pokemon. On one hand, Pawniard is absolutely terrifying to face in battle. STAB Knock Off hits REALLY hard, Iron Head smashes the Dark- and especially the Fairy-types that resist it, while Sucker Punch and possibly Choice Scarf help to offset its average Speed. On the other hand, I never really found it extremely hard to deal with while laddering. While I did struggle with it a lot at first, the addition of Timburr to my team made Pawniard much more easy to beat. I'm also pretty sure bulky Mienfoo can deal with it well. I also didn't see Pawniard nearly as much as I did with Misdreavus, so I don't think it's as over-centralizing. Regardless, its positive traits that allow it to rip through unprepared teams is what made me nominate it.

Another Pokemon I considered nominating was Fletchling, but I decided against it. I personally only ran one counter and never really had any trouble with it, but I was lucky in the fact that no one used an HP Grass variant. Maybe next time, maybe next time...

 

[Aaron's Aron]

In all honesty, even though I haven't made the coil yet, I have a few important things to say. First, Misdreavus should be moved up to ubers. Misdreavus is a reason why pawniard is so centralized in the metagame. Second, I think there should just be a ban on the knock off + Pawniard combination, due to there not being this kind of problem with any other pokemon using knock off, and as well as Pawniard is perfect in its place atm. Third, I think that Fletch is one of those pokemons that if there was a lc ou, would be in between ou and uber, too weak to be forced upon uber, but too strong to the point where there should be consideration upon it. Fourth, the next test should be for vulpix/bellsprout/bulbasaur, at least a test to see if they will be banned upon being on the same team, maybe all of them into ubers for lc. Finally, there needs to be lc for each of the standard tiers like ou/uu/ru/nu. I know there is lc uber and regular lc, but having more seperation would hopefully make everything balanced for the most part.

Hey, I don't quite think you understand some things. First off, saying we should ban Misdreavus just because it makes Pawniard super common is pretty dumb. You should be considering banning a Pokemon based on what it does, and not how it affects other Pokemon and their usage. It is true that Misdrevus' high usage makes Pawniard used a lot, but that is no reason to ban it. Also, there is no way that Knock Off will be banned just to weaken Pawniard. Moves are never banned (or going to be banned) just to weaken one Pokemon and keep it it in the tier. If it is broken with what it has, it will be banned. Also, other Pokemon do use Knock Off well, especially Fighting-types like Mienfoo and Timburr, so Pawniard is definitely not the only one. Finally, there is no way that Vulpix, Bulbasaur, and Bellsporut would be banned. They are not very good on their own. It is Drought that makes them so good, so that would be banned if anything. You might be thinking how is this different from neutering Pawniard by taking away Knock Off? Well this is an entire play style, and it affects multiple Pokemon, instead of just affecting one like you say Knock Off does with Pawniard.

I mean TCR literally said right before you posted that things won't be banned or unbanned to just to keep one Pokemon in check and in the tier.