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Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)
- Thread starter Raseri
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if that was the problem, then Ninjask would not be shit. It's more than just BP + Speed Boost. It's complimented by Combusken's typing and decent defences with eviolite. If Combusken is banned, and it is still broken on Torchic / Ninjask, we can relook at it. But right now, BP + Speed Boost is not on the table.
Ninjas is hindered by lack of bulk and SR weakness meaning it cannot come in to pass out as much as combusken. So yeah, baton pass + speed boost sounds like it isnt the issue regarding this. Combusken also benefits from the fact that priority moves are almost always physical, especially in NU and with access to bulk up and a lot of bulk anyway, it's almost impossible to hit it hard enough with priority before it baton passes out which means you're guaranteed to get out into something that can make use of the stats. Ninjask can be caught out by some priority attacks before passing out which hinders its ability to do what combusken does.
But seriously, Combusken right now is just unhealthy for the metagame. I mean sure there are ways to get around it, but most of the time it comprises of running some obscure mon, moveset, or move, effectively compromising your team in case you fight a normal team. I imagine if Combusken was allowed to stay in the metagame as is, things would be found to deal with it. However, the metagame would then be highly centralizing, and just not fun. I mean if you get swept by something in a standard game you might be frustrated with yourself, and try to see what you did wrong that game or look for flaws in your teambuilding. Combusken, on the other hand, makes you just mad at the game, and doesn't really promote growth as a player because of the sheer ease at which it can set up. What to actually do about it, I'm not exactly sure. A flat Combusken ban wouldnt totally be fair, as Combusken on its own isn't that big of a deal. A baton pass + Speed Boost ban would just make things worse for Ninjask, and Whirlipede (if anyone actually uses it lol). A baton pass ban on Combusken alone seems okay, but it is the most complex option. So in all, I don't currently like Combusken presence in the meta, but am unsure on what should be done.
I feel like this is similar to the argument that Blaziken + Speed Boost should be banned over just Blaziken. I don't think anybody wants to explain again why that's fallacious. :/
There are a ton of points in favour of using #1 Chicken as evidenced by the amount of teams using it on the ladder and in NUPL. I've personally used both Combusken and Gorebyss with an absolutely gross amount of success for less effort than I've ever put in. It's like nothing else. This meta is accommodating to BP teams, but I don't see that it's really possible for that to change all that much as there are very few good answers to Combusken pass. Because of the points listed below I believe Combusken needs to go as it's extremely over-centralising and there are very few counters to its passing.
I'll quickly summarise [EDIT: I said quickly but this turned out far from quick because I wanted to cover all bases] all the biggest points in its favour, some of these have been brought up. It all really boils down to 2 major points:
Ability to accumulate boosts easily and safely multiple times per match
Because of
1. Massive natural bulk with eviolite: allowing Combusken to setup all over the opposing team, even tanking STAB EQs from Golem / Rhydon after a bulk up. Not to mention those piss weak scalds that evaporate on Combusken.
2. Ability to set up on a huge amount of Pokemon. Combusken can setup all over Pokemon without STAB supereffective attacks and proceed to bulk up / SD on the switch, or if you really need that boost simply tank a STAB attack and BP out after using protect
3. Ability to utlise protect for a free boost. Meaning you can bring Combusken in safely on something that can't do much damage to it (i.e. half the meta) or that it threatens out with fire punch, and proceed to gain +1 attack, +1 defence and +1 speed (or +2 attack +1 speed), then accumulate a +2 speed safely, *middle fingers in the air* and boost out of there. Or, if the opponent has brought an extremely strong physical attacker in you may bulk up again to tank that hit and move on out.
Ability to pass to Pokemon that have massive utility with or without boosts
1. Avoidance of the most commonly used phasing moves (roar & whirlwind by a pass to Xatu and Dtail by a pass to Puff). The only consistent phase is circle throw which is utilised by Poliwrath (for the record a great switch-in and counter to all Combusken forms and Gorebyss forms - one that I've been using a bit) and Throh (sub-optimal compared to its multiple fighting type rivals, especially Gurdurr). However chucking the chicken in a circle puts a lot of pressure on your team as its a lucky draw as to who comes out, and you land pitiful damage on the target, especially if Xatu was battoned to, putting a lot of pressure on your team simply because the opponent is using Combusken and you absolutely HAVE to send in Poliwrath every single time
2. These pokemon simply become godly with boosts, prime examples are Gatr, Kanga and Xatu, and the crazy thing is they can rip through a few members of the opposing team, die, and Combusken can come out to start the fun again. For example, at +2 atk, +2 def, +2 spe and a CM set up Xatu has a 180BP move at its disposal. All of this is very simple to set up. With enough boosts they become extremely hard to bring down, you will end up tearing your team apart to stop them, while Combusken is most likely in good health chilling in the back
3. Even without boosts the mons Combusken likes to pass to can function as effective members of a team, heck you can even play games high ladder and just not pass out with Combusken and still do well. This boils down to the fact that the team needn't support Combusken, rather Combusken supports the team with essentially no opportunity cost but everything to gain
Counters
- Haze. E.g. Murkrow, Qwilfish etc. Cryoganol gets bopped by fire punch.
Checks
- Clear smog (Steels, however uncommon with chicken pass, are immune). E.g. Dragalge, Weezing, etc.
- Circle throw (and dtail if the opposing team doesn't have a fairy type). Poliwrath and Throh. Walled by ghosts. Sub-Circle Throw wrath is nice for easing predictions, avoiding tomb wow etc but wears Wrath down over time.
- Encore. Liepard et al. Cannot come in on a Sky Uppercut but otherwise counters the FAR more common fire punch / flare blitz sets. Be wary that with prediction Liepard can be worn down and thus has been demoted to a check
- Dragon Tail. Lickilicky, Dragalge, Steelix. Another option I'd like to see more is Dtail Samurott (forces a pass and surprise dtails the switch-in) but the opportunity cost is pretty high, and once the dtail is known it becomes a mission to kill / keep Samu alive depending on what side you're on.
- Offensive pressure. Props to my man Montsegur who brought up: Rhydon which forces a 50/50. Roar = pass to Xatu, but rock blast / stoneedge is gonna hit Xatu. Rock move = switch to Gatr, but roar mitigates this. However given Combusken's great type synergy with its pairs and >+1 defence from Bulk Up it's not difficult to switch out.
(please message me if I've overlooked a mon or check, and I'll edit it in)
"The meta can change to deal"
This holds weight. As I said there are a few counters. However these are pretty limited, and the fact that they can by removed fairly easily by pretty much anything that Combusken likes to pair with is pretty scary. If you haven't played with or against Combusken pass it's gonna be difficult to see exactly how all these points play out in the meta. It can be easy to over-estimate how much the meta can adjust to counter Combusken-pass. The reality is there are few counters, and Combusken can easily setup at least once (usually twice) against any team with decent type synergy, no matter how the meta is structured. There is essentially no opportunity cost for setting up Combusken, and as I said you have everything to gain from doing so.
More discussion on how the meta could change and whether we should wait longer for the meta to accomodate Combusken pass would be great, because at this point I think myself and everyone else have raised pretty much all the relevant points to do with the topic "Combusken OP or na?"
Theses are the main points. For a more in depth discussion of how Combusken differes from Gorebyss see my posts and other's posts in the NU Viability Rankings thread, page 17. Essentially boils down to Chicken passing >1 times per match and Fish passing 1 time per match
I'll quickly summarise [EDIT: I said quickly but this turned out far from quick because I wanted to cover all bases] all the biggest points in its favour, some of these have been brought up. It all really boils down to 2 major points:
Ability to accumulate boosts easily and safely multiple times per match
Because of
1. Massive natural bulk with eviolite: allowing Combusken to setup all over the opposing team, even tanking STAB EQs from Golem / Rhydon after a bulk up. Not to mention those piss weak scalds that evaporate on Combusken.
2. Ability to set up on a huge amount of Pokemon. Combusken can setup all over Pokemon without STAB supereffective attacks and proceed to bulk up / SD on the switch, or if you really need that boost simply tank a STAB attack and BP out after using protect
3. Ability to utlise protect for a free boost. Meaning you can bring Combusken in safely on something that can't do much damage to it (i.e. half the meta) or that it threatens out with fire punch, and proceed to gain +1 attack, +1 defence and +1 speed (or +2 attack +1 speed), then accumulate a +2 speed safely, *middle fingers in the air* and boost out of there. Or, if the opponent has brought an extremely strong physical attacker in you may bulk up again to tank that hit and move on out.
Ability to pass to Pokemon that have massive utility with or without boosts
1. Avoidance of the most commonly used phasing moves (roar & whirlwind by a pass to Xatu and Dtail by a pass to Puff). The only consistent phase is circle throw which is utilised by Poliwrath (for the record a great switch-in and counter to all Combusken forms and Gorebyss forms - one that I've been using a bit) and Throh (sub-optimal compared to its multiple fighting type rivals, especially Gurdurr). However chucking the chicken in a circle puts a lot of pressure on your team as its a lucky draw as to who comes out, and you land pitiful damage on the target, especially if Xatu was battoned to, putting a lot of pressure on your team simply because the opponent is using Combusken and you absolutely HAVE to send in Poliwrath every single time
2. These pokemon simply become godly with boosts, prime examples are Gatr, Kanga and Xatu, and the crazy thing is they can rip through a few members of the opposing team, die, and Combusken can come out to start the fun again. For example, at +2 atk, +2 def, +2 spe and a CM set up Xatu has a 180BP move at its disposal. All of this is very simple to set up. With enough boosts they become extremely hard to bring down, you will end up tearing your team apart to stop them, while Combusken is most likely in good health chilling in the back
3. Even without boosts the mons Combusken likes to pass to can function as effective members of a team, heck you can even play games high ladder and just not pass out with Combusken and still do well. This boils down to the fact that the team needn't support Combusken, rather Combusken supports the team with essentially no opportunity cost but everything to gain
Counters
- Haze. E.g. Murkrow, Qwilfish etc. Cryoganol gets bopped by fire punch.
Checks
- Clear smog (Steels, however uncommon with chicken pass, are immune). E.g. Dragalge, Weezing, etc.
- Circle throw (and dtail if the opposing team doesn't have a fairy type). Poliwrath and Throh. Walled by ghosts. Sub-Circle Throw wrath is nice for easing predictions, avoiding tomb wow etc but wears Wrath down over time.
- Encore. Liepard et al. Cannot come in on a Sky Uppercut but otherwise counters the FAR more common fire punch / flare blitz sets. Be wary that with prediction Liepard can be worn down and thus has been demoted to a check
- Dragon Tail. Lickilicky, Dragalge, Steelix. Another option I'd like to see more is Dtail Samurott (forces a pass and surprise dtails the switch-in) but the opportunity cost is pretty high, and once the dtail is known it becomes a mission to kill / keep Samu alive depending on what side you're on.
- Offensive pressure. Props to my man Montsegur who brought up: Rhydon which forces a 50/50. Roar = pass to Xatu, but rock blast / stoneedge is gonna hit Xatu. Rock move = switch to Gatr, but roar mitigates this. However given Combusken's great type synergy with its pairs and >+1 defence from Bulk Up it's not difficult to switch out.
(please message me if I've overlooked a mon or check, and I'll edit it in)
"The meta can change to deal"
This holds weight. As I said there are a few counters. However these are pretty limited, and the fact that they can by removed fairly easily by pretty much anything that Combusken likes to pair with is pretty scary. If you haven't played with or against Combusken pass it's gonna be difficult to see exactly how all these points play out in the meta. It can be easy to over-estimate how much the meta can adjust to counter Combusken-pass. The reality is there are few counters, and Combusken can easily setup at least once (usually twice) against any team with decent type synergy, no matter how the meta is structured. There is essentially no opportunity cost for setting up Combusken, and as I said you have everything to gain from doing so.
More discussion on how the meta could change and whether we should wait longer for the meta to accomodate Combusken pass would be great, because at this point I think myself and everyone else have raised pretty much all the relevant points to do with the topic "Combusken OP or na?"
Theses are the main points. For a more in depth discussion of how Combusken differes from Gorebyss see my posts and other's posts in the NU Viability Rankings thread, page 17. Essentially boils down to Chicken passing >1 times per match and Fish passing 1 time per match
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Well, don't get me wrong, I don't agree with a speed boost+baton pass ban, but it is worth noting that UU banned Shadow Tag despite pokemon like Gothita not being broken there.(rip gothorita)
That being said, complex bans are tricky and often unnecessary, there's not really enough of a reason to do it here, and despite it happening in a different tier this gen banning something that is only broken on a select mon(or mons) is dumb.
Also Whirlipede doesn't even get baton pass lol.
If any complex ban should be done, it's Combusken+BP. But even then, that shouldn't happen. By that logic Sigilyph should have stayed in the tier with magic guard banned.(and every other ban ever should be changed too.)
Offensive Combusken isn't worth going through a complex ban for, and it's no exception.
Really, what is there to contribute to the discussion otherwise at this point. Ban the chicken, or ban nothing. Preferably the chicken.
That being said, complex bans are tricky and often unnecessary, there's not really enough of a reason to do it here, and despite it happening in a different tier this gen banning something that is only broken on a select mon(or mons) is dumb.
Also Whirlipede doesn't even get baton pass lol.
If any complex ban should be done, it's Combusken+BP. But even then, that shouldn't happen. By that logic Sigilyph should have stayed in the tier with magic guard banned.(and every other ban ever should be changed too.)
Offensive Combusken isn't worth going through a complex ban for, and it's no exception.
Really, what is there to contribute to the discussion otherwise at this point. Ban the chicken, or ban nothing. Preferably the chicken.
We all know Ninjask isn't broken, so that means that speed boost + Baton pass can't be banned. Combusken and baton pass seems like a complex ban because that would be like saying Blaziken would't be broken with flare blitz or BW2 Tornadoes wouldn't be broken with hurricane. If anything is to happen, Combusken all together should be banned.
Obviously I knew Whirlipede didn't get baton pass, I was really just testing you all... (Cue nervous laughter)
There is really no need to complex ban in this situation as Speed Boost + Baton Pass is not (even remotely) broken on anything else than Combusken who as I said has fantastic synergy with most receivers and very good typing and defenses for the sake of having one more mediocre mon to use like Combusken would be without BP.
If there's to be a ban I think a ban of the move Baton Pass on Combusken would suffice
It leaves Combusken as a viable mon, but removes what made it so good
Complex ban though :x
Unsure if we should be discussing exactly how a ban could look rn, but that's my two cents
It leaves Combusken as a viable mon, but removes what made it so good
Complex ban though :x
Unsure if we should be discussing exactly how a ban could look rn, but that's my two cents
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kk going to clarify a few things about this that I should have earlier.
1) The suspect is Combusken. Not Speed Boost. Not Combusken + Speed Boost. Not Speed Boost + Baton Pass. Just Combusken. If we ban it and its still a problem afterwards, we can revisit it later.
2) "But we're getting a tier shift at the end of the month, that could change everything!" This is a really valid concern, and something I really should have put in my first post. But the way that I plan to do things is as follows:
If we get massive changes at the end of the month, then the vote on Combusken will be postponed for an undetermined period of time to let the metagame settle. Then the vote will take place.
If we do not get massive changes at the end of the month, the Combusken vote will take place shortly after that.
Announcing it now allows us to take action in the 2nd situation quicker. Which is why I chose to do that instead of wait.
If anyone has any questions about this test, let me know and I'll clarify it. I don't want things to be mysterious at all :)
1) The suspect is Combusken. Not Speed Boost. Not Combusken + Speed Boost. Not Speed Boost + Baton Pass. Just Combusken. If we ban it and its still a problem afterwards, we can revisit it later.
2) "But we're getting a tier shift at the end of the month, that could change everything!" This is a really valid concern, and something I really should have put in my first post. But the way that I plan to do things is as follows:
If we get massive changes at the end of the month, then the vote on Combusken will be postponed for an undetermined period of time to let the metagame settle. Then the vote will take place.
If we do not get massive changes at the end of the month, the Combusken vote will take place shortly after that.
Announcing it now allows us to take action in the 2nd situation quicker. Which is why I chose to do that instead of wait.
If anyone has any questions about this test, let me know and I'll clarify it. I don't want things to be mysterious at all :)
is chicken
Combusken is not broken by itself, and I think this should be duly noted. However, the support Combusken provides and all of its positive attributes is what makes it so extremely amazing. I never thought I'd see the day where I wanted to have Combusken banned, but that day has just come. It gets free boosts just through turns thanks to its ability, which is quite good. Plus, it has the bulk to back it up thanks to Eviolite. Now that it actually gets Baton Pass with Speed Boost, it just pushes it over the top in my opinion. It has almost no opportunity cost, to put it bluntly, really bad players can just use it and it works because it's just that good. Now, I don't think that Speed Boost + Baton Pass should be banned whatsoever. This is a complex ban and I see no purpose in it, as literally the only other Pokemon that can actually utilize this combination in NU is Ninjask, and people don't think Ninjask is broken, now do they? Ninjask is not broken, in case you think it is, but Combusken is so many leagues ahead of Ninjask and any other Speed Booster in the tier. Baton Pass in itself has already been nerfed beyond repair anyways, so that doesn't need to be banned. Speed Boost isn't broken as well, the only other Pokemon with this ability is Yanma, Ninjask, Carvanha, Whirlipede, Venipede, and its pre-evolution, Torchic. Out of those, the only remotely viable Pokemon are Whirlipede and Ninjask, to an extent. None of these, bar Ninjask, have Baton Pass, making the entire ban moot. Combusken itself is not broken, as I have said, its the strategy that revolves around it that is broken, really. For this reason, I believe Combusken needs to be banned.
- Will this suspect count towards tiering contributor badge?
- How is the people voting on Combusken decided?
- Is there going to be a suspect ladder at all or no?
No democracy here :)
Anyway, I think a ban is long overdue for Combusken. The metagame isn't necessarily revolving around it, but like BP chains in OU, I thinks it's an unhealthy presence that should be removed.
I think he just meant the NU council (ie the people who voted for Sigilyph), but I guess it couldn't hurt to ask :)
The tiering system:
NU is going to be using a council format to make tiering decisions early on in its existence. There is no set limit to the amount of members on the council, anyone qualified will be added and participate in future votes. Ladder based requirements will be added as time goes on, but won't likely happen until a few months after NU goes official.
More members will be added to the NU council in the coming days, as right now we only have the NU staff as members.
Got this from the thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-nu-tiering-info.3509431/
Edit: For the sigi vote I was told it counted toward the badge, so I assume it is the same for this test, although idk for sure.
Hey Unfixable.
I didn't talk to Raseri much about the vote, but I'll try to answer your questions as best as possible.
1. The suspect vote will count towards the Tiering Contributor badge, just like the Sigilyph vote counted. Do note that there is also a subjective requirement that goes along with TC badging: you need to be a good presence in metagame discussions as well. That said, if you qualify for the rotating NU council, you probably satisfy the subjective requirement of the TC badge.
2. People are chosen based on a few factors. The three most important factors are:
3. There will not be a suspect ladder for this suspect test.
Hope this answered all of your questions sufficiently.
I didn't talk to Raseri much about the vote, but I'll try to answer your questions as best as possible.
1. The suspect vote will count towards the Tiering Contributor badge, just like the Sigilyph vote counted. Do note that there is also a subjective requirement that goes along with TC badging: you need to be a good presence in metagame discussions as well. That said, if you qualify for the rotating NU council, you probably satisfy the subjective requirement of the TC badge.
2. People are chosen based on a few factors. The three most important factors are:
- Good presence on either the #neverused channel on IRC or the NU metagame room.
- Good posts around this subforum, specifically this very thread.
- High ladder scores and participation, as well as decent tournament standings.
3. There will not be a suspect ladder for this suspect test.
Hope this answered all of your questions sufficiently.
I agree with everybody else. Simply put, combusken does its job too well. It can support its team with powerful boosts, clean a weakened team, or simply revenge a sweeper by using protect once. Its ability to do every niche it has to its complete extent results in its overcentralization of the metagame, and as a result a limit in teambuilding has occured. Furthermore, its good typing and bulk allows it to easily set up, especially against the most common pokemon in the metagame named Shiftry, who can't even touch Combusken without running some form of absurd coverage. Further, it has been effectively proven in the Ladder and NUPL, showing its consistency throughout the metagame, even in high level competitive play.
It's been what, 2 weeks since this strategy became popular? And we're already trying to ban it?
I hear a bunch of people whining about having to change their teams to add one of these into their team. That doesn't make a threat centralized. That makes it a threat. The metagame changes, and you have to adapt. That's not to say Combusken may not be broken, but just because it had some good results before people changed their teams to account for it, that doesn't make it too good for the tier.
This test should be delayed for at least a month so people can get antiquated with combusken as a threat.
Look at all those counters and checks. I see 12 pokemon in there which can stop it, and there are definitely others, albeit less viable or well known. How many counters does Shiftry have? What about Feraligatr? Slurpuff?
I hear a bunch of people whining about having to change their teams to add one of these into their team. That doesn't make a threat centralized. That makes it a threat. The metagame changes, and you have to adapt. That's not to say Combusken may not be broken, but just because it had some good results before people changed their teams to account for it, that doesn't make it too good for the tier.
This test should be delayed for at least a month so people can get antiquated with combusken as a threat.
Yes Raseri did say the first of August when NU will go out of Beta.
As we talk about feraligatr it has many counters/checks and is totally stoppable, SD gatr gets beaten by vileplume, quiladin, tangela, poliwrath, qwilfish, gourgiest and many more depending on set. After a SD any grass pokemon can switch to its waterfall/aquajet and revenge it will STAB Grass move example sceptile,shiftry. Other fast pokemon can take it +2 aquajet and revenge it, example band sawk. Some don't exactly kill it but dent and weaken it making it handle able. There are many many ways to stop feraligatr unlike combusken which sets up on a pokemon and is most of the times impossible to stop as it has batonpass. Even though Gatr its a top tier threat, its not broken.
The post I quoted had 12 checks/counters. Grass types Gatr runs into can be hit by ice punch, and at +2 most of them die. But I'm not trying to say Gatr is broken, I'm trying to say that the metagame has developed counters for it. Another good example is Typhlosion. It was A+ rank not too long ago, and people were talking about how difficult it is to counter. After a little while, people started running the counters for it, and its usage decreased.
We haven't let that process occur for Combusken. We've seen it at its peak, there's no way it can get any more destructive than it is now. But over the next month people will develop counters for it, probably. People will start learning how it plays and start adapting their teams. And then a month from now we can see if combusken is still as destructive as it used to be.
And before people say that we shouldn't have to change for just one pokemon: Yeah, we do. You don't have a Gatr counter on your team? Or a slurpuff counter or a Shiftry counter? It has other uses (hopefully), but given the omnipotence of those pokemon, you can't build a team without one. Same with combusken. Run Dragalge, Weezing, Murkrow, Poliwrath, Throh, Archeops, Leopard, Lickilicky, Dragalge, Steelix, or rhyhorn on your team. What, they're not on your team right now? Well, I'm sure they have other uses. If they don't, then that's when we decide combusken is broken. But people are smart, I'm sure we'll find some very creative, innovative pokemon which can beat it. From necessity stems innovation, right? I'm not picking a side yet, because we haven't let the metagame settle yet. I'm sure this isn't going to happen, but we should wait a month and see what comes from the time we have combusken in the metagame, and then run a suspect test.
And yet each one of those checks (there really are no definitive counters atm) is beaten on a standard Baton Pass team with a different pass out. Pass out into Xatu if you expect a roar, or pass out into your slurpuff if you expect a dragon tail. The only two that really put pressure on BP combusken is Rhydon and Dragalge, as it can roar out vs a fairy or it can catch Xatu on the switch with rock blast and for Dragalge it can sludge wave vs a fairy and Dtail vs Xatu. However this requires some great predictions because if you predict wrong you are on the verge of getting swept. Also your "counter" is going to be getting constantly worn down coming in vs combusken while Combusken can come in constantly through out the battle and set up even just a protect and BP to a better match up providing support throughout the entire game.
As far as people coming up with creative sets to counter Combusken that is called centralizing because they would not be running prankster haze murkrow or some other random move set on their team if it wasnt for Combusken.
Also have theorymonned a bit with some people about Poliwrath with Circle throw as a check how ever no one I know has tested it yet, so while it sounds good on paper it could be complete trash...who knows.
Edit: Also if Poliwrath becomes common as a counter I am sure that a good ghost sweeper would become common on the team and the same situation as above would occur.
100 posts yay!
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