Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)

[Brawlfest]

And yet each one of those checks (there really are no definitive counters atm) is beaten on a standard Baton Pass team with a different pass out. Pass out into Xatu if you expect a roar, or pass out into your slurpuff if you expect a dragon tail. The only two that really put pressure on BP combusken is Rhydon and Dragalge, as it can roar out vs a fairy or it can catch Xatu on the switch with rock blast and for Dragalge it can sludge wave vs a fairy and Dtail vs Xatu. However this requires some great predictions because if you predict wrong you are on the verge of getting swept. Also your "counter" is going to be getting constantly worn down coming in vs combusken while Combusken can come in constantly through out the battle and set up even just a protect and BP to a better match up providing support throughout the entire game.

As far as people coming up with creative sets to counter Combusken that is called centralizing because they would not be running prankster haze murkrow or some other random move set on their team if it wasnt for Combusken.

Also have theorymonned a bit with some people about Poliwrath with Circle throw as a check how ever no one I know has tested it yet, so while it sounds good on paper it could be complete trash...who knows.

100 posts yay!

Standard Poliwrath has Circle Throw anyways and has been proven to be effective time and time again with ProTox or RestTalk

 

[Aladyyn]

Can people stop suggesting things that don't actually work?

Counters

- Stat-resetting moves, haze, clear smog etc. E.g. Dragalge, Weezing, Murkrow etc. - Clear Smog is blocked by steel types, Krow works, but is shit otherwise
- Circle throw (and dtail if the opposing team doesn't have a fairy type). Poliwrath and Throh - Ghost types...
- Fast taunts. Archeops - Combusken outspeeds after 2 speed boosts and can therefore still pass +2 speed
- Encore. Liepard et al. - hf switching pard in

Checks

- Dragon Tail. Lickilicky, Dragalge, Steelix. Another option I'd like to see more is Dtail Samurott (forces a pass and surprise dtails the switch-in) but the opportunity cost is pretty high, and once the dtail is known it becomes a mission to kill / keep Samu alive depending on what side you're on. - Slurpuff is immune
- Offensive pressure. Rhydon forces a 50/50. Roar = pass to Xatu, but rock blast / stoneedge is gonna hit Xatu. Rock move = switch to Gatr, but roar mitigates this. However given Combusken's great type synergy with its pairs and >+1 defence from Bulk Up it's not difficult to switch out. - 50/50s are in favor of Combusken user, Rock Blast/Stone Edge can miss and don't even KO boosted Xatu

So in conclusion, you have to run a Clear Smogger/Hazer, Circle Throw user, Taunt Archeops, Dtail user and Rhydon to beat ChickenPass reliably? Sorry if I come off as passive aggresive, but I really don't think most of these things work very well against competent Combusken users.

 

[ck49]

And yet each one of those checks (there really are no definitive counters atm) is beaten on a standard Baton Pass team with a different pass out. You mean a good team has counters for the counters of its best Pokemon? Pass out into Xatu if you expect a roar, or pass out into your slurpuff if you expect a dragon tail. The only two that really put pressure on BP combusken is Rhydon and Dragalge, as it can roar out vs a fairy or it can catch Xatu on the switch with rock blast and for Dragalge it can sludge wave vs a fairy and Dtail vs Xatu. Sure, if the baton pass team has 30 pokemon it can pass to, then yeah, it'll be hard to beat. However this requires some great predictions because if you predict wrong you are on the verge of getting swept. I could say the same thing for Slurpuff. Heck, predicting wrong against most good sweepers is a death blow. Also your "counter" is going to be getting constantly worn down coming in vs combusken while Combusken can come in constantly through out the battle and set up even just a protect and BP to a better match up providing support throughout the entire game. Any offensive pokemon can switch in, "wear out" its counter, and switch out. Combusken is taking a hit and taking passive damage from entry hazards every time is switches in.

As far as people coming up with creative sets to counter Combusken that is called centralizing because they would not be running prankster haze murkrow or some other random move set on their team if it wasnt for Combusken. If you have to run a Pokemon which is otherwise not viable, then yes, it is centralizing. If you have to run a Pokemon which otherwise is viable and has utility, then no, its not centralizing, its adapting, which you should always be doing. Which one is it? Well, we should wait an see!

Also have theorymonned a bit with some people about Poliwrath with Circle throw as a check how ever no one I know has tested it yet, so while it sounds good on paper it could be complete trash...who knows. See! When people were getting swept by the new combusken set, was anyone running a perfectly viable poliwrath? If people start running poliwrath, then combusken's effectiveness decreases and teams which are centralized around it are less over-powered. And that'ss just one pokemon.
Edit: Also if Poliwrath becomes common as a counter I am sure that a good ghost sweeper would become common on the team and the same situation as above would occur. At which ppoint you wont be able to run one of your other sweepers, and you will have a different weakness. There's an opportunity cost.

Most of this can be applied to any semi-competent pokemon.

 

[Ares]

Most of this can be applied to any semi-competent pokemon.

The baton pass team doesnt need 30 pokemon to pass out into, all it really needs is Xatu and Slurpuff. Then you can throw on a Gatr or a Kanga if you want to pass out into them instead. The other two mons can either set up hazards or be there to take out a certain threat, or like I said if Circle Throw Poliwrath becomes popular then there are three slots where you can substitute in a ghost of your choice. As far as Slurpuff goes I believe it is much the same instance where there are very few checks/counters to all 3 sets of Slurpuff. However the difference is that if you can roar out a slurpuff after it has belly drummed and it cant come back in and do it again, or if its the calm mind set a status really hurts it (unless the rest variant) where as Xatu has magic bounce. I think it is really hard to have a counter for all 3 Slurpuff sets (although the wish set is a little bit easier to take care of). Combusken isnt taking a hit from everytime he comes in. The point is that he can come in protect once outspeed his opponent and BP out to another pokemon that matches up better with more speed. Or it can set up on lots of pokemon as stated in various other posts, so i wont repost them, and force the switch getting a +1,+1,+2 which is really good. Or if you opponent stays in you can set up all over them with bulk up or SD. Yes there are pokemon that can otherwise be viable and you can throw on a move like roar or haze to counter BP, but what move are you giving up to replace it with that. Also you even said yourself people are going to start running different pokemon (which would otherwise not be used) to counter it, and while creative that is centralizing. Also just want to point out to you that I helped with that list that This Is Fearsome posted, and the NU chat in PS spent a good deal of time thinking up viable checks/counters. Yes there are a few, but if you have to run the same 2 or 3 pokemon over and over again on every team to counter Combusken then that is not fun and is once again centralizing the meta. As far as a ghost type goes like I said above its not that hard to throw it on when you have 3 open slots to run w/e.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

When listing counters remember that Combusken can pass to literally any offensive Pokemon and it will still enjoy the boosts. Circle Throw may work some of the time, but if the Combusken user happens to have a Ghost-type on the team, good luck. Same with many of the other moves that claim to counter Combusken: Taunt users are outsped anyway and Xatu can deal with them bar Archeops; Dragon Tail won't work if Combusken passes to Granbull or Slurpuff. It's true, Combusken can't possibly deal with all those at once, but if you ask me 4 teammates are good enough to cover at least most of them, and happening to have the correct counter is then an issue of team matchup. And such teammates for Combusken aren't really hard to find given that almost everything appreciates the boosts that Combusken has to offer.

The issue with Combusken in my opinion is that it finds setup opportunities really easily. The metagame right now is filled with Grass-, Dark-, and Steel-types, all of which are setup fodder, in addition to a few weaker Pokemon that can't 2HKO Combusken. This means Combusken can reliably pass Speed, bulk, and power at the same time in most matches, which is the reason why many people are advocating for a ban.

However I think that the metagame has the potential to adapt to Combusken, so I'm going to keep my mind open for now. I say this because theoretically, these kind of teams have a slightly tougher battle should they fail to pull off chicken pass, and it has several checks including Rhydon, Toxic Spikes, most stall teams, or even stuff like Gorebyss setting up alongside it. I'll wait a bit more before settling on a decision, but if the current state goes on I'll probably lean towards ban.

 

[Ares]

When listing counters remember that Combusken can pass to literally any offensive Pokemon and it will still enjoy the boosts. Circle Throw may work some of the time, but if the Combusken user happens to have a Ghost-type on the team, good luck. Same with many of the other moves that claim to counter Combusken: Taunt users are outsped anyway and Xatu can deal with them bar Archeops; Dragon Tail won't work if Combusken passes to Granbull or Slurpuff. It's true, Combusken can't possibly deal with all those at once, but if you ask me 4 teammates are good enough to cover at least most of them, and happening to have the correct counter is then an issue of team matchup. And such teammates for Combusken aren't really hard to find given that almost everything appreciates the boosts that Combusken has to offer.

The issue with Combusken in my opinion is that it finds setup opportunities really easily. The metagame right now is filled with Grass-, Dark-, and Steel-types, all of which are setup fodder, in addition to a few weaker Pokemon that can't 2HKO Combusken. This means Combusken can reliably pass Speed, bulk, and power at the same time in most matches, which is the reason why many people are advocating for a ban.

However I think that the metagame has the potential to adapt to Combusken, so I'm going to keep my mind open for now. I say this because theoretically, these kind of teams have a slightly tougher battle should they fail to pull off chicken pass, and it has several checks including Rhydon, Toxic Spikes, most stall teams, or even stuff like Gorebyss setting up alongside it. I'll wait a bit more before settling on a decision, but if the current state goes on I'll probably lean towards ban.

I agree Scorp, my mind is open on the subject right now (I think I am leaning towards ban atm). So if there is a good argument for Combusken staying than my mind can be swayed. As far as when the suspect is happening Raseri said that if there are any major tier shifts following the usage stats at the end of the month then the suspect will be put off to allow the meta to adapt.

 

[ck49]

Yeah, I never said Combusken definitely isn't broken. I said that while it's had good results so far, we need to wait and see if the metagame can adapt to it before deciding that it needs to be banned. I don't want to sit and defend it being the metagame when all I can throw out are hypotheticals, so I'd rather adopt a wait and see approach. I'm just afraid our ban-happy system will get rid of it before it has a chance to settle in.

 

[Ares]

Yeah, I never said Combusken definitely isn't broken. I said that while it's had good results so far, we need to wait and see if the metagame can adapt to it before deciding that it needs to be banned. I don't want to sit and defend it being the metagame when all I can throw out are hypotheticals, so I'd rather adopt a wait and see approach. I'm just afraid our ban-happy system will get rid of it before it has a chance to settle in.

The problem is that if the meta doesnt adapt at all for X amount of time and there is baton pass on every team it leads to a very stale meta. I felt the same way about the RU meta when it still had shuckle sticky web HO teams, I got reqs for that vote in the first two days and then didnt play the until Shuckle got banned because the meta was so stale and boring with everyone using the same team or another team to counter it. Also for the "ban-happy system" so far all that has been banned is Sigilyph (which idk if you would agree, was pretty OP). And if a mon is considered not broken after the meta changes a little bit it can be brought back down for testing. What I dont want to happen is for the meta to be unable to adapt and for combusken teams to run rampant, and the ladder consist of Combusken BP and counterteams for combusken BP.

 

[ck49]

The problem is that if the meta doesnt adapt at all for X amount of time and there is baton pass on every team it leads to a very stale meta. I felt the same way about the RU meta when it still had shuckle sticky web HO teams, I got reqs for that vote in the first two days and then didnt play the until Shuckle got banned because the meta was so stale and boring with everyone using the same team or another team to counter it. Also for the "ban-happy system" so far all that has been banned is Sigilyph (which idk if you would agree, was pretty OP). And if a mon is considered not broken after the meta changes a little bit it can be brought back down for testing. What I dont want to happen is for the meta to be unable to adapt and for combusken teams to run rampant, and the ladder consist of Combusken BP and counterteams for combusken BP.

Can't argue with Sigi, but that was around for a while before it was suspected. As for what you don't want to happen, well, now you're throwing out hypotheticals. It could also end with combusken being no more centralizing than Shiftry or Slurpuff. But to ban it before we find out isn't a good thing.

Anyways, its been suspected, and its not being delayed, so there's no point in arguing over this. Let's see what's going on.

As far as what I've seen in the last couple days, I've seen a lot more poliwrath, steelix, and golurk. The former two are good counters to Combusken, and are pretty good pokemon otherwise. Golurk is interesting (I've been using it too), but it makes some sense. It can switch in on combusken safely, and can KO it if it stays in. Its also powerful enough to KO almost anything that BPs in. On the other hand, a lot of Golurks are choice banded, so protect makes it easy to switch to a pokemon which can deal with whatever move its locked into. Golurk also works fairly well with combusken, even though it's still pretty slow, its the ghost type ^ was talking about.

 

[Orphic]

Can't argue with Sigi, but that was around for a while before it was suspected. As for what you don't want to happen, well, now you're throwing out hypotheticals. It could also end with combusken being no more centralizing than Shiftry or Slurpuff. But to ban it before we find out isn't a good thing.

Anyways, its been suspected, and its not being delayed, so there's no point in arguing over this. Let's see what's going on.

As far as what I've seen in the last couple days, I've seen a lot more poliwrath, steelix, and golurk. The former two are good counters to Combusken, and are pretty good pokemon otherwise. Golurk is interesting (I've been using it too), but it makes some sense. It can switch in on combusken safely, and can KO it if it stays in. Its also powerful enough to KO almost anything that BPs in. On the other hand, a lot of Golurks are choice banded, so protect makes it easy to switch to a pokemon which can deal with whatever move its locked into. Golurk also works fairly well with combusken, even though it's still pretty slow, its the ghost type ^ was talking about.

For some reason here it seems you're missing the point as to why we're all so concerned about combusken in this tier. You say steelix is a counter because it switches in safely, Combusken isnt an offensive threat, almost anything switches in safely. By the time you've switched in steelix, Combusken has set up one or two bulk ups and is able to pass them on to something that can destroy steelix. This is a significant point, if you do not lead or very quickly get something in that can counter combusken, if sets up and moves onto something that you cannot counter. Thats what makes this so difficult to beat, and therefore overpowered regardless of all the 'stale' meta arguments.

As for your other point about seeing a rise in golurk and poliwrath in order to counter combusken, this is the definition of over centralisation because you're forced to use pokemon that may be almost useless against teams that do not have combusken. Hence, as montsegur used the shuckle example, the ladder becomes filled with two teams, those with and those that counter combusken. I hope this clears things up without overlapping too much.

 

[Aladyyn]

While I agree with your point, Poliwrath and Golurk are far from useless. Steelix is actually a solid check, it can Dragon Tail the recipient and Slurpuff hesitates to switch in because Gyro Ball does a shitton. (at least it should, might calc later)

 

[soulgazer]

Can I also note that Combusken has been good since the very beginning of XY NU? Some people have for argument against it that it just became popular and that we need to adapt, when it has been used to great success for a while now.

Maybe it is just me, but I really don't like those 'adapt / git gud' arguments.

 

[CanadianWifier]

So I never actually used a combusken until rather recently, and I was using an SD variant until I learned about the power of BU Busken from this very thread.
Safe to say: I haven't had much experience with the Bulk Up+Baton Pass variant of Combusken that I assume is what warranted this test. But in my very short time with this thing I've realised just how brainless and easy it is to use - many times I've deliberately sacked a mon that I would have liked to keep just to get a free switch to busken and potentially counter-sweep. It adds a very unhealthy aspect of trying to prepare/counter it with your teams, which in turn makes you weaker to regular teams (as I found out in nupl this week). Also as maybe some of you know, I've been using a team featuring Combusken pass in RU a hell of a lot over the past few days with pretty decent success (top 75 before I even realised I was on the ladder lol, especially cool considering 2/3rds of my team is NU) and it just opened my eyes to how crazy this chicken is.

It's ability to boost Defense+Speed at the same time is very reminiscent to our old fren in OU, Scolipede, who is hands down the best Baton Passer in the game at the moment. This ability to boost 2 stats at once (with one being a defensive stat) is what sets it apart from Ninjask specifically, and any other pokemon that attempts stat boost passing - it's ability to get bulkier and faster in one turn; which in turn allows it to get even more boosts due to the boosted defenses, which in turn allows the eventual recipient an easier time coming in and sweeping. I feel that the power to do this in specific is far too powerful for NU, a place where quick passing to Stored Power Xatu shouldn't be the most effective way to win - we should be free to explore the amazing diversity the tier offers and is known for, without worrying that a BP team will ruin our lives. If I were to vote, ban is a very obvious choice in my eyes :)

For any one interested here are some replays. Even though the games are RU, it still showcases the pokemon in question - Combusken, and it's ability to pass.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145586721
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145237273
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145578393
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145584969
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145226290
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145279858
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-145231300
(yes I was running offensive Rhyperior with Roar and Stealth Rock... I didn't want to lose to opposing Busken teams [which I saw a lot of tbh])

 

[Shuckleking87]

100% agree with Soulgazer in regards to the fact that Combusken has been good the whole XY NU generation. As most people know I like to use fairly obscure stuff, I saw the fact from the very beginning that combusken with baton pass was going to be extremely good. I think it was either my 1st or 2nd team that I was able to see the power of swords dance baton pass combusken. Its ability to so easily get up attack and speed boost for fairly bulky and powerful yet slightly slower than the typical sweeper stuff like kangaskan, feraligatr and klinklang was really appealing and was so easy to get high on the ladder (which doesnt mean much but eh). The only "real" problem for combusken back in the day was fletchinder, which had priority acrobatics to handle combusken, and even if you ran bulk up > swords dance, fletchinder could swords dance to more quickly boost its power. I am guessing that was why combusken did not receive as much love. Now, as seen by the recent replays of the top players in the tier, it is just so easy to have one poke that cannot 2hko or even ohko combusken before it sets up at least 1-2 bulk up and at least 2-3 speed boosts. However, at the very worst, combusken can set up at least 1 speed boost, which is really all some pokes need.

Combusken really has everything going for it. It has very acceptable bulk for its job, as it can easily take neutral or even super effective hits from the best pokes in the tier like shiftry, seismitoad, spiritomb, granbull, gurdurr, and easily get boosts no problem. This can be somewhat said for gorebyss too, however, the bulk is only there from a white herb, and cannot take special hits as well. Combusken is also neutral to stealth rocks, which is a big big reason why combusken is a threat and ninjask is almost not an option. Sure, ninjask can perform a similar role with swords dance, especially with the defog buff. However, ninjask requires a fair amount of team support for it to be effective (as well as gorebyss), while combusken really needs no team support at all to do its job and can really fit onto any teams. The benefit of just getting one speed boost after protect and baton passing to even a wall can make or break a match. And the fact that combusken can do this multiple times without really any resistance (remember, if a poke switches out on combusken, protect will not work, so you will essentially get two free speed boost) makes this really the ultimate support poke. However, probably the best benefit of combusken, and something I really should of thought of at the very beginning of the meta, is getting those defense boost from bulk up.

Bulk up on combusken imo is really the breaking point for this poke in the tier. Its ability to get even one defense boost makes it difficult for pokes that you would think would be able to handle it 1 v 1 cannot. A couple examples (coming from 248 hp/ 152 def neutral defense nature, not sure what standard is but that is what I use, but there is leeway nevertheless) are that Max attack rhydon/golem cannot ohko combusken, after a bulk up, with eq (even with rocks). Feraligatr without life orb cannot kill combusken after a bulk up boost with waterfall + aqua jet after rocks (feraligatr has less than a 2/3 chance to kill with life orb, but life orb feraligatr is extremely powerful). Adamant banded sawk cannot ohko with any move after a combusken bulk up. These are some of the most intimidating and wall breaking pokes in the tier that even cannot really handle combusken. Of course, at the same time getting these defense boosts you are also getting attack and speed with is absolutely unfair. I guess in comparison, gorebyss can also live all these hits after a shell smash and white herb activation, but you almost need max hp and max defense to do so. And, of course, you can only only get +2 speed (combusken can easily get +3), and the poke that you baton pass into is going to be taking a massive hit from these powerful pokes because you do not have the defense boosts (and even moreso without white herb). The fact that combusken can pass defense boost into pokes that are already bulky, like the ones I mentioned before but also stuff like slurpuff, xatu, samurott etc make this an even bigger threat. Of course the added attack and speed really let the poke be scary and destroy teams. But another added benefit is that these defensive boosts will immensely help you take all of the physical priority in the tier, like sucker punches, fake outs and mach punches without the fear of dying to these hits, which cannot be said for any other baton passer.

Yeah sure, there are pokes that can stop combusken from passing big boost, mainly, special attacking pokes that can outspeed combusken after 2 speed boost and hope to ko. But there aren't many pokes that can do this. And the fact combusken can set up on all your other pokes really isnt that helpful anyways, unless you run clear smog magmortar...

if that was the problem, then Ninjask would not be shit. It's more than just BP + Speed Boost. It's complimented by Combusken's typing and decent defences with eviolite. If Combusken is banned, and it is still broken on Torchic / Ninjask, we can relook at it. But right now, BP + Speed Boost is not on the table.

This in a nutshell. Now before I say I want this thing banned (oops), maybe it is fair to allow whatever dropdowns occur in the next couple days determine whether this thing needs to be gone, however, I don't think much will be able to stop the terror of combusken.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

The only Pokemon that could drop at some point that have a chance against CombuskenPass (That make sense anyway) are Tyrantrum, which loses to Steel-types (I doubt Banded EQ kills boosted Steels (I think a 2hko at best)) and Kabutops, who is not fast and strong enough to beat boosted Pokemon (Maybe offensive Swords Dance, but still). However, both have a chance as they do extremely well against Unboosted Pokemon (And both can stop Combusken's shenanigans from the start). Maybe Fletch too but I doubt that it will come back. (Does well against Combusken, poorly against everything else except if anything not named Xatu gets burned) (And before you say Jellicent or Gastrodon they are both set-up fodder for Combusken as they're weak as piss)

On topic though, I can agree that CombuskenPass, much like RU ShuckleWeb takes no skill to use at all and is much rather unhealthy for the metagame. The strategy can use certain things to beat it's counters. (Slurpuff beats Dragon Tail users, Xatu beats other Phazing moves, Ghost-types beat Circle Throw mons, and Steels beat Clear Smog) To add to this, the best check to the entire strategy, Murkrow, is outclassed by Liepard outside of beating CombuskenPass. Stuff like Swellow could work as well, but again, Steel-types. (Maybe Rock-types as well but no one (In the majority) runs those on CombuskenPass anyways)

That's all I really have to say on the subject.

 

[g]

Yeah, I never said Combusken definitely isn't broken. I said that while it's had good results so far, we need to wait and see if the metagame can adapt to it before deciding that it needs to be banned. I don't want to sit and defend it being the metagame when all I can throw out are hypotheticals, so I'd rather adopt a wait and see approach. I'm just afraid our ban-happy system will get rid of it before it has a chance to settle in.

The purpose of this (and all) suspect tests is to make the metagame more balanced and fun to play and sometimes banning is necessary to reach that state. I can understand that NU is still a new tier and not everything has been discovered yet but i really don't think the tier will adapt to a supporting threat as strong as Combusken in a short period of time (not to mention that combusken pass in a way or another has always been a think since r0) and, with the incoming NU open, we don't really have the time to take that approach.

 

[TSM ryan]

The purpose of this (and all) suspect tests is to make the metagame more balanced and fun to play and sometimes banning is necessary to reach that state. I can understand that NU is still a new tier and not everything has been discovered yet but i really don't think the tier will adapt to a supporting threat as strong as Combusken in a short period of time (not to mention that combusken pass in a way or another has always been a think since r0) and, with the incoming NU open, we don't really have the time to take that approach.

Exactly. The arguments that some people made about us needing to "adapt" to it are just silly. Combusken has been here since the start of XY NU, and while it may not have been as popular as it is now, it has been used before The Goomy made it a real trend. How about instead of wasting time and waiting, while having a crap meta full of passing birds, we just get it over with and get this thing banned once it's time to vote. There's no reason to stall this out any longer. It's broken, and it won't get better. The main stops have been named already and outside of stopping chicken pass, they're shit. So what people are insisting is that we just have to play a 50/50 every battle and hope he has Busken pass so we can counter it. That's just dumb.

 

[Bluwing]

Combusken is unhealthy in the way it supports it's teammates and how reliable it is at doing this. There is literally no risk to run Combusken on your team as it will pass at worst +1 speed to another teammate which is incredibly strong, the other thing which make Combusken more broken is Bulk Up and it's basically because most off it's teammates is physically offensive. Combusken can also run Substitute to avoid getting shuffled by Dragon Tail users and gain a huge advantage, the last thing I want to point out is that Combusken is decently bulky as well which further improves it's consistensy to pass boosts.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Last month, Combusken had a usage of 1.6%. Less than Meganium. That's so little, it would drop down to the tier below if we had one. When we create a threat list on Smogon, we say that something needs to be seen in 1/20 battles (5% usage) to be considered a threat (at least, that's the definition I remember). Combusken was definitely not a threat until this month.

I think gothorita was the main reason for the UU shadow tag ban if i remember correctly, and that had I think 0.5% usage. However, it made stall a very unviable playstyle and could easily take out certain walls. combusken is very similar as it can pass speed and defensive boost very easily without much consequences

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

I don't think that definition of threat is entirely accurate since many Pokemon below that cut-off (More specifically 3.41% cutoff) (Lilligant, Rhydon, Haunter, Ferroseed, Samurott) are considered rather good threats. On the contrary, stuff that have usage over that (Armaldo, Cradily, Torkoal, Avalugg and Malamar) are considered irrevelant since they are generally outclassed and/or are rather useless in the meta. (For the most part anyway; Cradily and Malamar have unique niches, though aren't considered that good because of popular trends (Both lose to Accelgor (In the former's case Ferroseed as well) offense for example)) Also, the Goth example applies true to this as well. (RIP Mini Goth, but we'll likely get Big Goth so whatever)

 

[jbtc10]

I think gothorita was the main reason for the UU shadow tag ban if i remember correctly, and that had I think 0.5% usage. However, it made stall a very unviable playstyle and could easily take out certain walls. combusken is very similar as it can pass speed and defensive boost very easily without much consequences

Combusken isn't similar to Gothorita at all, and UU isn't a very good thing to go by because they are incredibly ban-happy there and wont hesitate to do a knee-jerk ban at the drop of a hat. Combusken does have counters like Liepard and Gorebyss, whereas with Goth you either had to use a Shed Shell, or predict a double and pursuit trap it (it was mostly balanced though by the fact that it was shit against offense and only worked against stall, which already has a lot of problems anyway).

 

[Blast]

Yeah not much to say that hasn't already been said, but I guess I'll just throw in that because Combusken is a supportive threat rather than an offensive / defensive one, its "counters" are fairly easy to overcome for the most part because Combusken isn't the actual threat at hand--its teammates are. This is a pretty important trait imo because it means Combusken can just as easily adapt to the metagame as the meta can to it. It's already been established that the support Chicken can provide is pretty ridiculous, and it mostly ends up boiling down to whether or not you can find the right mons to receive that support. So it ultimately comes down to whether or not you think the meta can handle the myriad of sweepers Chicken can viably pass to (not to mention the option of having multiple of them on the same team), which is only made more difficult by Baton Pass's general ability to scout and adapt its matchup depending on the scenario.

Also usage has nothing to do with being broken -_-

 

[Cased]

Combusken somewhat falls under the category of "Unhealthy" that Sigilyph did in my book. I think a lot of people are overrating the ability of Combusken to aimlessly pass Bulk Up / Swords Dance (whatever move) to a lot of the bigger threats in the metagame, whether it involve a Stored Power Pokemon in Musharna or Xatu, or any one of the physical attackers commonly found on these "Combusken" teams in Kangaskhan / Feraligatr / Spiritomb / SD Sceptile and the list goes on for days. Bulky Combusken does have a niche in being able to wall and set-up on prominent Offensive threats like Spiritomb and Shiftry, not some many (If any) Pokemon can boast about, and Defensive Pokemon in the metagame like Regirock / Ferroseed and more Pokemon and well honestly I'm sure everything I'm saying here has been stated multiple times in the comments before mine. But I don't think Combusken can really set-up as freely as people believe, there are a bunch of Strong Pokemon in the tier and a Combusken set of Bulk Up / Protect / Substitute or Attacking Move / Baton Pass has the best probability of setting up with a bulky Eviolite spread to take hits a bit better since its not meant to deal damage, although can if necessary. A lot of the Offensive Pokemon can threaten Combusken since it is weak to Water-, Psychic-, Flying-, Ground-type attacks and those are fairly common in NU. There are a bunch of Pokemon who can phaze in the metagame, although Xatu is commonly found on these Combusken teams which can make going for Roar or Whirlwind very risky. Which only leaves Dragon Tail Pokemon being effective, Rhydon and Dragalge take it on, but all in all I just think Pokemon for the metagame.

I hate banning things because they're "gay" or "annoying" but I think a BP + Speed Boost ban would be appropriate, I'm also not one for huge complex bans but this isn't very complex and neuters Combusken a fair amount. Its Offensive set would still work in the metagame and stuff like that.

Zebraiken tag me next time a suspect goes up so I can say things that 10 people haven't said already :(

 

[Shuckleking87]

I hate banning things because they're "gay" or "annoying" but I think a BP + Speed Boost ban would be appropriate, I'm also not one for huge complex bans but this isn't very complex and neuters Combusken a fair amount. Its Offensive set would still work in the metagame and stuff like that.

I mean the only things that get bp + speed boost in the tier are combusken, ninjask and torchic. Ninjask isnt ban worthy because sr weakness and piss poor bulk. Torchic is torchic. It makes sense to ban combusken because it is the only really threatening poke of the bunch, and we really dont need to take away ninjask's only niche imo. ANd I dont think we would be missing out on alot without offensive combusken anyways, yanma is a good enough attacking speed booster.

 

[ck49]

Also usage has nothing to do with being broken -_-

To clarify, I never indicated that usage is a good way to dictate how broken something is. What I was trying to communicate is that if I spent 40 hours (~200 battles) playing on the NU ladder last month, I'd face ~3 Combusken, and thus its not something my team would have to heavily account for. I wouldn't need a combusken counter to win a good number of games. Now I might play 10 battles and see 3 combusken, which means its a threat which my team has to account for. So to say something like "combusken has been around from the start" isn't completely true.

edit: I don't really support a complex ban, since unless you can find 2+ instances (edit2: Which, as of now, there aren't! I'm not suggesting a complex ban, don't read this post and assume I am!) where the same combo is broken, its not worth it. That being said, while we're on the topic, one of the biggest reasons baton pass is so good is because it can pass to a magic bouncer, who avoids roar and whirlwind. Instead of considering a BP+Speed boost ban (which we aren't, thankfully), a BP + magic bounce ban (on the same team, a la drizzle+Swift Swim) would make more sense, since you could also argue that shell smashing to a magic bounce user is borderline broken - and certainly more viable than ninjask/torchic.