Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Tyrant laharl]

alright alright, I see D might have been to harsh for the bug, and believe me I used to love the thing (favorite poke in Gen 5) but honestly, does anyone actually have experience with volc in Gen 6, or actually good replays? Tbh from the sound of all this some of you act like its insanely easy to set up and super easy to sweep, but its honestly really not and I'm still feeling like the only reason its at c+ is because of fan popularity. Its super easily revenged by suckee punch's and aqua jets, and personally, from my extensive usage of trying to make volc work in Gen 6, it truly can't set up against much.

And I'm sorry fincent, I don't know what you are talking about man but its pretty obvious looking at volc it has a huge case of 4mss. Is there anyone who actually used volcarona successfully who'd care to enlighten my ignorance, as I'm still honestly not seeing its appeal as a sweeper. I'm just finding it wierd how everyone jumps to defend it, when it hardly has any ladder usage at all.

 

[Aragorn the King]

And I'm sorry fincent, I don't know what you are talking about man but its pretty obvious looking at volc it has a huge case of 4mss. Is there anyone who actually used volcarona successfully who'd care to enlighten my ignorance, as I'm still honestly not seeing its appeal as a sweeper. I'm just finding it wierd how everyone jumps to defend it, when it hardly has any ladder usage at all.

At first, just imagine it's a Fire/Bug type with only Quiver Dance and Fiery Dance. What beats it? Flying Priority, Water-types, Rock-types, Fire-types, and Dragon-types. A good Volcarona must be able to handle some of these threats. Flying priority is impossible to beat, so let's just admit that as a fault right now. Heatran + Mega Charizard-X obviously wall Volcarona with just Fiery Dance, so using Hidden Power Ground gets around this. Quagsire and other bulky Waters get past a set of just Fiery Dance and Hidden Power Ground, and Giga Drain allows Volcarona to beat all of these, barring Choice Banded Pokemon with Aqua Jet. Giga Drain also allows you to beat weakened Rock-types and Dragon-Ground-types. Looking at this moveset, is there anything it can't do well? The only thing this Volcarona lacks is a way to hit Dragonite, Noivern, Charizard-Y, Latios, Latias, and Moltres neutrally. However, Quiver Dance allows it to beat Noivern, Latias, Latios, and Moltres lacking Toxic. This only leaves Dragonite and Charizard-Y, and the obvious Chansey, the only true switch ins.

It has Checks, like Choice Band Azumarill, but like all sweepers, those should be removed before attempting a sweep. Tyranitar will never use Dragon Dance when there's a Breloom on the opposing team. Giving up HP Ground for Bug Buzz is really dumb because it only helps it beat Pokemon it already beats, and stops it from beating Heatran and Charizard-X. It's a C+ sweeper that needs support to sweep, as it does have many checks that need to be handled. It's easy to sweep once you remove these checks, which can be difficult, and is why Volcarona is a mediocre C ranked sweeper, not an excellent A ranked one like Mega Charizard-X. It sets up against Aegislash, +0 Mawile, +0 Bisharp, Clefable, Iron Head locked Excadrill, Secret Sword locked Keldeo, Close Combat locked Terrakion, Scizor, Venusaur, Gengar, Heatran, Latios, Latias, Skarmory, Quagsire, Amoonguss, Zapdos, Mew, Sylveon, and a couple others. Of course, its setup opportunities are fewer and more specific than other sweepers, but again, that's what it's mediocre, not good, and not bad.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

At first, just imagine it's a Fire/Bug type with only Quiver Dance and Fiery Dance. What beats it? Flying Priority, Water-types, Rock-types, Fire-types, and Dragon-types. A good Volcarona must be able to handle some of these threats. Flying priority is impossible to beat, so let's just admit that as a fault right now. Heatran + Mega Charizard-X obviously wall Volcarona with just Fiery Dance, so using Hidden Power Ground gets around this. Quagsire and other bulky Waters get past a set of just Fiery Dance and Hidden Power Ground, and Giga Drain allows Volcarona to beat all of these, barring Choice Banded Pokemon with Aqua Jet. Giga Drain also allows you to beat weakened Rock-types and Dragon-Ground-types. Looking at this moveset, is there anything it can't do well? The only thing this Volcarona lacks is a way to hit Dragonite, Noivern, Charizard-Y, Latios, Latias, and Moltres neutrally. However, Quiver Dance allows it to beat Noivern, Latias, Latios, and Moltres lacking Toxic. This only leaves Dragonite and Charizard-Y, and the obvious Chansey, the only true switch ins.

It has Checks, like Choice Band Azumarill, but like all sweepers, those should be removed before attempting a sweep. Tyranitar will never use Dragon Dance when there's a Breloom on the opposing team. Giving up HP Ground for Bug Buzz is really dumb because it only helps it beat Pokemon it already beats, and stops it from beating Heatran and Charizard-X. It's a C+ sweeper that needs support to sweep, as it does have many checks that need to be handled. It's easy to sweep once you remove these checks, which can be difficult, and is why Volcarona is a mediocre C ranked sweeper, not an excellent A ranked one like Mega Charizard-X. It sets up against Aegislash, +0 Mawile, +0 Bisharp, Clefable, Iron Head locked Excadrill, Secret Sword locked Keldeo, Close Combat locked Terrakion, Scizor, Venusaur, Gengar, Heatran, Latios, Latias, Skarmory, Quagsire, Amoonguss, Zapdos, Mew, Sylveon, and a couple others. Of course, its setup opportunities are fewer and more specific than other sweepers, but again, that's what it's mediocre, not good, and not bad.

I'm starting to see where you are coming from, but the thing is the majority of what you said either can't actually be set up on, or has to be choiced to do it. LO aegi beats volc, and a combo of play rough sucker punch mawiles also destroys volc without heavy defense investment. I'll agree with some of the more defensive options Such as sylveon and zapdos, but I know for a fact volc isn't setting up on bisharp and clefable actually sets up on VOLCARONA, not the other way around. I'm not saying volc can't sweep man, just that I feel it doesn't have a clear enough niche. I know most people will say "its the most offensive quiver dancer" But is it really worthy of rank if its not even very good at that?
while they do attack from different sides of the spectrum, looking at your list charizard X sets up on all of those things just as well, And many more things volc can't set up on. Now, I know we all know that, and that's why its lower ranked, but the point im making is when someone's making a team, WHAT makes that person realize they need a volcarona, and what is its advantage over all the competition? We shouldn't be ranking everything just because it has a tiny niche, like offensive quiver dancer. Volcarona has huge opportunity cost, compounding horrid rock weaknesses with some of the best things in the meta. Frankly, im not seeing almost any advantage over using volcarona over using almost any fire type available. Personally this is no different than a long time ago when people where trying to rank salamence higher because it gets hydro pump. Sure, using that gives it a clear and defined niche over its fellow dragons, but is that nearly enough?

 

[Aragorn the King]

volc isn't setting up on bisharp and clefable actually sets up on VOLCARONA, not the other way around

Volcarona does 53% minimum, 63% maximum to Clefable, so there's no way Clefable is setting up on it, especially if it has Magic Guard. I guess you're right about Bisharp + Mawile, but if they're at +0, they won't stay it because of the chance of being OHKOd and because of Flame Body.

I'm not seeing almost any advantage over using volcarona over using almost any fire type available.

Its niches over Charizard-X are that it gets past Quagsire + Rhyperior, doesn't take a mega slot, and gains longevity while boosting offenses. Its niche over Charizard-Y are that it doesn't take a mega slot, can defeat Heatran without relying on Focus Miss, and can boost its Speed and Special Attack to beat things Charizard-Y can't. It's better than Salamence because Salamence boasts nothing of value over Dragonite or Charizard-X. Volcarona has Quiver Dance over its competition + doesn't take a mega slot, which I guess is kind of a poor argument, but it's still somewhat decent. Say you're using a team with Mega Gyarados and need a special Fire type. Volcarona can fill this role. Also its Rock weakness is massive, but it's the same as Charizard-Y's and Charizard-X's pre mega evolution who you're negatively comparing Volcarona to. It can boost its speed and special attack, which obviously gives it a niche over Heatran. Arcanine, Rotom-H, sometimes Infernape, and Moltres are defensive, while Volcarona is offensive. Entei can't boost its offenses while Volcarona can. It can boost its speed, unlike Houndoom and Infernape. Charizard-Y and Heatran are all that gives it competition as a special Fire-type, and neither can boost their stats to beat some of their checks and counters.

LO aegi beats volc

Volcarona OHKOs and can take any hit, unless you mean LO Head Smash, which isn't great and is still OHKOd.

Volcarona has huge opportunity cost

By what? When something has opportunity cost, it means that by running it you can't run something else that's good/better. Examples are Rotom-H, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-I, and the whole taking a mega slot issue. Volcarona doesn't face this in my opinion, as running Volcarona doesn't stop you from running anything else. It may deter you from running other Pokemon 4x weak to Rock, but other than that, it has little opportunity cost. It's one of the two viable Quiver Dancers, and the only one that is offensive.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Volcarona does 53% minimum, 63% maximum to Clefable, so there's no way Clefable is setting up on it, especially if it has Magic Guard. I guess you're right about Bisharp + Mawile, but if they're at +0, they won't stay it because of the chance of being OHKOd and because of Flame Body.

Its niches over Charizard-X are that it gets past Quagsire + Rhyperior, doesn't take a mega slot, and gains longevity while boosting offenses. Its niche over Charizard-Y are that it doesn't take a mega slot, can defeat Heatran without relying on Focus Miss, and can boost its Speed and Special Attack to beat things Charizard-Y can't. It's better than Salamence because Salamence boasts nothing of value over Dragonite or Charizard-X. Volcarona has Quiver Dance over its competition + doesn't take a mega slot, which I guess is kind of a poor argument, but it's still somewhat decent. Say you're using a team with Mega Gyarados and need a special Fire type. Volcarona can fill this role. Also its Rock weakness is massive, but it's the same as Charizard-Y's and Charizard-X's pre mega evolution who you're negatively comparing Volcarona to. It can boost its speed and special attack, which obviously gives it a niche over Heatran. Arcanine, Rotom-H, sometimes Infernape, and Moltres are defensive, while Volcarona is offensive. Entei can't boost its offenses while Volcarona can. It can boost its speed, unlike Houndoom and Infernape. Charizard-Y and Heatran are all that gives it competition as a special Fire-type, and neither can boost their stats to beat some of their checks and counters.

Volcarona OHKOs and can take any hit, unless you mean LO Head Smash, which isn't great and is still OHKOd.

By what? When something has opportunity cost, it means that by running it you can't run something else that's good/better. Examples are Rotom-H, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-I, and the whole taking a mega slot issue. Volcarona doesn't face this in my opinion, as running Volcarona doesn't stop you from running anything else. It may deter you from running other Pokemon 4x weak to Rock, but other than that, it has little opportunity cost. It's one of the two viable Quiver Dancers, and the only one that is offensive.

I'll have to leave after this, but I'd just like to clarify now.
D rank is to harsh, I admit now, but I don't think it should be any higher than c-, as it fits in more with those pokes in my opinion. I'd also like to point out yes, volcarona does have an opportunity cost, as now you have to baby its 4x SR weakness while using it as a somewhat niche sweeper. Volc also can't beat most of its hard counters no matter how much it boosts, so I fail to see that as a point, and heatran can just toxic or whirlwind or even use a rock move as some carry now. And out if all your list there was many more things volcarona can't set up on that I chose to just not even bother explaining. I might expand on this later, but for now I'm not convinced it should be ranked alongside hydreigon, and am still supporting a drop to C- .

 

[QuickBH]

Tyrant laharl Next time you want a drop, you should start small, you shouldn't ask a Pokemon to drop from C+ all the way to D and believe it to be okay. When people are disagreeing with you (with valid evidence) shouldn't continue to go on such a large scale, even if C- isn't D. I disagree with what you say, but just start with C and go from there after a month if you convince the people here it belongs in C.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Tyrant laharl Next time you want a drop, you should start small, you shouldn't ask a Pokemon to drop from C+ all the way to D and believe it to be okay. When people are disagreeing with you (with valid evidence) shouldn't continue to go on such a large scale, even if C- isn't D. I disagree with what you say, but just start with C and go from there after a month if you convince the people here it belongs in C.

Firstly, my friend, there was no need for that post as I already stated D rank was to harsh, to which I apologized. Secondly, please point me to the valid evidence, as I asked for replays, teams, anything showcasing volcarona in a positive light, to which I was giving theorymon after theorymon experience. Which doesn't translate well in practice I believe. Next time, don't needlessly intervene in conversations and tell me things I've already admitted toward being wrong.
Edit: sorry for being so crass earlier mang, just the whole conversation was over and it got brought back up again.

 

[TheKingKarp]

Before I start I would like to say I'm new to Smogon Forums and well Forums in general.. So if I mess up don't hate me :].
(also I'm on my phone so disregard any typos)
Today I'm going to talk about Mamoswine. Mamoswine is currently listed as A-. A decent rating, but I believe Mamoswine should move up to A at the very least. Mamoswine has two sets that are used currently. One, the most common, is the focus sash lead set. The other is the LO set. The reason I think Mamoswine is a candidate for the A rank is because of the amount of metagame dominant pokemon it checks. It's a pretty hard counter to Thundurus-I, a pokemon that we can all agree is one of the best in XY OU. Thundurus cannot touch this thing barring focus blast. On the other hand ice shard is a Straight 2HKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 176-210 (58.6 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mamoswine's amazing Ice typing doesn't stop there. Another S-tier threat Landorus takes major damage from it as well.
252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 288-340 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see all you need is rocks to guarantee the OHKO on Landorus
Mamoswine also gets the job done because with focus sash he is pretty much guaranteed to get up rocks if thats what your team needs.
Mamoswine's speed might seem a little bit low at first but looking deeper, it's speed is great.
Breloom a common focus sash lead gets beat by our good friend Mamoswine all he needs is three hits on Icicle Spear to OHKO Breloom.
Even still I'm not saying Mamoswine is perfect as it is slow and pretty reliant on its STAB moves. But Other than that I think Mamoswine is a good 'mon in this metagame and should be considered for the A rank.
Again this is my first try at forums, so if you disagree just tell me but don't be rude, and if you agree that's great!
Thanks for reading :]

 

[Sevifar]

Volcarona does 53% minimum, 63% maximum to Clefable

Have fun running Modest LO in the 100 speed tier and without roost with your 4x SR weakness.

Anyway

It's not impossible to set up with Volcarona. But in order to do so, you absolutely need rocks gone along with Talonflame, Thundurus, Azumarill, Heatran, Clefable, Ttar, Chansey, Char-Y, The Latis, Pinsir, Sashloom... You get the picture. Looking at C+ and no other pokemon even comes close to requiring that much support in order to do it's job. So why does volc deserve to be in C+ alongside pokes like Infernape and Alo, who do their respective jobs not only better, but without all the baggage?

Arguments for volc to move down:

- Requires a huge amount of support to do its job (Much more than it's brethren in C+)
- Once setup, very easy to RK with Flying/Electric/Dark/Water moves + sashmons
- No notable niche

 

[Aragorn the King]

Have fun running Modest LO in the 100 speed tier and without roost with your 4x SR weakness.

That's its set. Idk where you're going with that. I know it's more difficult to use than other sweepers, but it's not like the set I'm using is wrong.

It's not impossible to set up with Volcarona. But in order to do so, you absolutely need rocks gone along with Talonflame, Azumarill, Heatran, Clefable, Ttar, Chansey, Char-Y, The Latis, Pinsir, Sashloom... You get the picture. Looking at C+ and no other pokemon even comes close to requiring that much support in order to do it's job. So why does volc deserve to be in C+ alongside pokes like Infernape and Alo, who do their respective jobs not only better, but without all the baggage?

Volcarona beats Heatran, Clefable, Chansey w/out SR, non-CB Azumarill with less than 85% of its health, Tyranitar with less than 71% of its health, Charizard-Y with less than 76% of its health, the Latis, and Sashloom after Stealth Rock, which is easy to assume if you assume they're on Volcarona's side. It has roadblocks, Pinsir, Talonflame, and Stealth Rock being the most major. Also while Infernape requires less hazard removal support, it hates FlySpam worse than Volcarona and finds it hard to carve a definite niche in OU, while Volcarona is the offensive Quiver Dancer. Also comparing it to Alomomola doesn't really cut it in my opinion, since Alomomola should be B- while Volcarona should be C+.

 

[Karxrida]

That's its set. Idk where you're going with that. I know it's more difficult to use than other sweepers, but it's not like the set I'm using is wrong.

Volcarona beats Heatran, Clefable, Chansey w/out SR, non-CB Azumarill with less than 85% of its health, Tyranitar with less than 71% of its health, Charizard-Y with less than 76% of its health, the Latis, and Sashloom after Stealth Rock, which is easy to assume if you assume they're on Volcarona's side. It has roadblocks, Pinsir, Talonflame, and Stealth Rock being the most major. Also while Infernape requires less hazard removal support, it hates FlySpam worse than Volcarona and finds it hard to carve a definite niche in OU, while Volcarona is the offensive Quiver Dancer. Also comparing it to Alomomola doesn't really cut it in my opinion, since Alomomola should be B- while Volcarona should be C+.

You can't beat both Heatran and Zard Y with the same set since those require Hidden Power Ground and Rock, respectively, meaning you will have to pick your poison. Rock has the benefit of dealing with Talonflame (LO Modest Volcarona has an 81.3% chance to OHKO Bulk Up Bird), making you a great lure without gimping yourself.
You have to be boosted beforehand to beat Tyranitar, and LO + Sand will wear you down fast.
Unaware Clefable is 2HKO'd by LO Modest Fiery Dance regardless of SR being up, but it can stall you out of health for a bit and can potentially set up on you if you don't have LO.
Anything faster than Sashloom beats it if SR is up, so I don't see why this is relevant.
Latis can still do damage if you haven't boosted yet.
Infernape can lure out Talonflame/Mega Pinsir and switch out to a counter with U-turn. It's not much but it's something.

I personally don't know what rank Volcarona would be good in, since I haven't used it at all and haven't seen any good replays of it in action. Its current rank of C+ sounds alright in theory, but I can see why people would want it to drop.

 

[Aragorn the King]

You can't beat both Heatran and Zard Y with the same set since those require Hidden Power Ground and Rock, respectively, meaning you will have to pick your poison. Rock has the benefit of dealing with Talonflame (LO Modest Volcarona has an 81.3% chance to OHKO Bulk Up Bird), making you a great lure without gimping yourself.
You have to be boosted beforehand to beat Tyranitar, and LO + Sand will wear you down fast.
Unaware Clefable is 2HKO'd by LO Modest Fiery Dance regardless of SR being up, but it can stall you out of health for a bit and can potentially set up on you if you don't have LO.
Anything faster than Sashloom beats it if SR is up, so I don't see why this is relevant.
Latis can still do damage if you haven't boosted yet.
Infernape can lure out Talonflame/Mega Pinsir and switch out to a counter with U-turn. It's not much but it's something.

I personally don't know what rank Volcarona would be good in, since I haven't used it at all and haven't seen any good replays of it in action. Its current rank of C+ sounds alright in theory, but I can see why people would want it to drop.

Sunboosted Fiery Dance does 75% to ZardY at +1, which is assumed. All you need is SR or 25% of prior damage to ensure the OHKO. Fiery Dance + HP Ground is enough to beat Heatran and Zard-Y, assuming Zard-Y has taken miniscule prior damage.

And everything I mentioned, including Sash Loom, were just things Sevitar said that beat Volc. I thought mentioning Breloom was weird, since it loses when rocks are up. It isn't necessarily relevant, it would just be weird not to mention something weird he said.

 

[Karxrida]

Sunboosted Fiery Dance does 75% to ZardY at +1, which is assumed. All you need is SR or 25% of prior damage to ensure the OHKO. Fiery Dance + HP Ground is enough to beat Heatran and Zard-Y, assuming Zard-Y has taken miniscule prior damage.

And everything I mentioned, including Sash Loom, were just things Sevitar said that beat Volc. I thought mentioning Breloom was weird, since it loses when rocks are up. It isn't necessarily relevant, it would just be weird not to mention something weird he said...

I tend to have some tunnel vision when replying to posts XD

Forgot about Zard Y's sun, but Zard Y will probably be weakened by the time you bring out Volc if you're using it as a late-game cleaner/sweeper/janitor, so I can see it beating Y without too much difficulty.

 

[Sevifar]

That's its set. Idk where you're going with that. I know it's more difficult to use than other sweepers, but it's not like the set I'm using is wrong.

I simply meant that if you run modest then you get outsped by the 100 base speeders, so the list of checks and counters grows. LO is a bad item on Volc assuming you aren't running roost (which you shouldn't since you grow your list of checks and counters even further).

I certainly wasn't assuming SR for volc's side, but you have to look at things realistically, and realistically SR is going to be up enough on your side that LO is going to be worse choice over lefties. And if Volc needs SR itself to sweep, that just proves that it needs unreasonable amounts of support in order to do it's job.

Volcarona beats Heatran, Clefable, Chansey w/out SR, non-CB Azumarill with less than 85% of its health, Tyranitar with less than 71% of its health, Charizard-Y with less than 76% of its health, the Latis, and Sashloom after Stealth Rock

That's all assuming you're running 5 moves: QD, HP Ground, FD, Bug Buzz and Giga Drain. Take out HP ground so ok, now you don't beat Heatran. Clefable and Chansey can stall out your LO recoil, and if you run lefties you can't beat them either. You can't beat any form of Azumarill at +1.

The rest you can beat, but only if you have ideal SR conditions (SR on their side but not on yours), And if they're weakened. Which they probably won't be, since people tend to save mons if they're the only stop to a sweeper on the other team. So even if you do grab a +1 at full health with SR on the other side, you still get RK'd/walled by heaps of things, and that's not even including mons like Dnite, Scarfchomp etc.

Also while Infernape requires less hazard removal support, it hates FlySpam worse than Volcarona and finds it hard to carve a definite niche in OU, while Volcarona is the offensive Quiver Dancer.

Nape does not struggle to find a niche in OU, It can be a scout, revenge killer/cleaner or a mixed wallbreaker. It dosen't need much support and can do it's job much more reliably than volc. Also it cares way less about Flyspam, since it can dissuade switchins with Stone Edge or just U-turn out. It's constantly entering/exiting battle compared to Volc which is meant to stay in. Nape isn't a particularly good mon, but it's much more consistent and doesn't need oodles of support in the form of threats removed or SR conditions.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I simply meant that if you run modest then you get outsped by the 100 base speeders, so the list of checks and counters grows. LO is a bad item on Volc assuming you aren't running roost (which you shouldn't since you grow your list of checks and counters even further).

Most things in the 100 Speed tier, like Charizard-Y, Charizard-Y, Medicham, and Gardevoir run Modest/Adamant just for that reason. And LO is the item choice on all offensive sets, which are generally more effective in this metagame than Bulkarona.

I certainly wasn't assuming SR for volc's side, but you have to look at things realistically, and realistically SR is going to be up enough on your side that LO is going to be worse choice over lefties. And if Volc needs SR itself to sweep, that just proves that it needs unreasonable amounts of support in order to do it's job.

LO is a necessary item on Offensive Volcarona sets.

That's all assuming you're running 5 moves: QD, HP Ground, FD, Bug Buzz and Giga Drain. Take out HP ground so ok, now you don't beat Heatran. Clefable and Chansey can stall out your LO recoil, and if you run lefties you can't beat them either. You can't beat any form of Azumarill at +1.

This is where you lose me. A lot of what I've done in my five comments so far is advocate against using Bug Buzz. I've never once said use Bug Buzz or that Bug Buzz is necessary for beating a Pokemon that I mention. You use Quiver Dance on Chansey/Clefable so they don't stall you out of LO recoil. I admit, Volcarona needs to be in prime condition to beat Chansey, not Clefable though. However, it's still going to heavily cripple Chansey by the time of its death, if you don't beat it. I also never mentioned using Bulkarona; all of my points have been geared towards Offensive Volcarona, so your second to last sentence confuses me. However, Volcarona having some versatility aids its viability. Also, you beat Belly Drum and Assault Vest Azumarill under ideal conditions, so this last sentence also confuses me.

The rest you can beat, but only if you have ideal SR conditions (SR on their side but not on yours), And if they're weakened. Which they probably won't be, since people tend to save mons if they're the only stop to a sweeper on the other team. So even if you do grab a +1 at full health with SR on the other side, you still get RK'd/walled by heaps of things, and that's not even including mons like Dnite, Scarfchomp etc.

A lot of Volcarona is assuming ideal conditions, again why it's mediocre. All Pokemon need some sort of support in taking care of what they can't beat. Saying its checks & counters probably won't be weakened is not realistic, as you should only ever use Volcarona if everything that could check or counter it is weakened or defeated. Just like you try to kill Volcarona's C&Cs, the opponent will try to preserve them. That is valid, but it's no different than other top-tier Pokemon. What happens if your only check to both Keldeo and Charizard-Y is Latias? It will become overwhelmed. Even if you try to preserve it for its job (of checking one) two of them at once, + Life Orb damage, + Hazard damage can weaken it enough so that Keldeo or Charizard-Y can beat it. If you run things that beat Volcarona's checks and counters, they will get worn down. If they never bring them out, you can capitalize on that. Volcarona needs more of this support than some Pokemon, as many teams will bring ScarfChomp, Dragonite, Talonflame, Pinsir, Stealth Rock, etc. Using Volt-turn and Pursuit tactics, as well as hazards, is helpful to wear down checks and counters so that they can either be defeated by Volcarona or a teammate.

Nape does not struggle to find a niche in OU, It can be a scout, revenge killer/cleaner or a mixed wallbreaker. It dosen't need much support and can do it's job much more reliably than volc. Also it cares way less about Flyspam, since it can dissuade switchins with Stone Edge or just U-turn out. It's constantly entering/exiting battle compared to Volc which is meant to stay in. Nape isn't a particularly good mon, but it's much more consistent and doesn't need oodles of support in the form of threats removed or SR conditions.

Infernape is a very mediocre Pokemon in OU that struggles to find a niche. It's too weak + frail to always perform as desired against most teams. It was even rejected for an analysis temporarily for being so mediocre. It however does have three niches; a hazard lead, a wallbreaker, and a physical wall. However, it still struggles to stand out when better wall breakers, Bisharp counters, and hazard leads exist. It isn't unusable by any means; it's mediocre, but at the better end of mediocracy. Like Togekiss. Like Ditto. Like Hydreigon. Like Volcarona.

 

[TheTraininator]

2. Mega Charizard-Y. I posted about this recently in the stall thread, but I believe Mega Charizard-Y is being potentially undersold in its current A rank, much like Venusaur was when it was dropped to being a mere A. As I've come to realize lately, Char-Y is quite amazing when you drop the idea that you (for whatever reason) need to run max speed Timid on it, which doesn't really achieve all that much when you think about it. Base 100 is overcrowded and there's little point trying to compete for the coin flip at the expense of a huge sacrifice in bulk. Similarly, Char-Y still hits incredibly hard even with no SpA investment at all, and he becomes an excellent counter to a number of premier threats such as Mawile, Landorus-I and Bisharp (and even himself too, which is important to take the strain off Chansey when going up against a Char-Y team that has a Pursuit Bisharp) when given investment in bulk. In this regard, I've found him in many match-ups to be a better asset for stall teams than Zard-X, because he can actually counter more relevant things than his dragon brother can.

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Solar Beam / Focus Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Offensively, even without investment, he still guarantees the 2HKO on Heatran with Focus Blast after Stealth Rock, still 3HKO's Latios with Fire Blast / Flamethrower, and still OHKO's Landorus with Fire Blast, so surprisingly, even though the damage is obviously lower with each hit, in many cases it doesn't actually change how many hits it takes to KO certain threats.

0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 184-218 (47.6 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 216-256 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 101-119 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 118-140 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Defensively, he does all sorts of nice things. He doesn't care about standard Lando-I's, he doesn't have a water weakness, he takes around 40% from a Rotom-W Volt Switch and can blast it hard with a Solarbeam, counters Mawile and resists everything it can throw at him, and the list goes on.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 135-160 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus in Sun: 321-378 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And as always, a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-142754288

I don't know whether people will agree if these are grounds for a raise, so I'll leave that for you to decide whether or not you think Zard-Y deserves one, but I personally think he deserves to reside alongside his fellow gen 1 starter evolution in A+, because he's still one hell of a powerful mon as he has been since his inception, and unlike other 1-dimensional pokemon like Pinsir which he's currently associated with, he can take on some new-found roles which can be valuable to a lot of teams.

I'm quoting this because I thought this was a really interesting post that didn't really get as much discussion as it should have. The main reason we dropped Zard-Y to A is because of his one-dimensionality, but this does seem like a vvery anti-meta set, and I do think A+ fits Zard-Y better than A.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Mega Charizard Y (A) -> A+ | I completely agree on Mega Charizard Y moving back to A+. The aforementioned defensive set does its job really well on Stall teams, synergizing with many walls such as Amoonguss and Skarmory. The defensive set can easily spread burns and take hits from both spectrums well due to its unpredictability as a defensive Pokémon, while still hitting relatively hard with a Sun-boosted Flamethrower coming from base 159 Special Attack. This same set helps combat the one-dimensionality that Mega Charizard Y was once said to suffer from. Outside of a defensive role on Stall, Mega Charizard Y remains a brilliant special wallbreaker with the sunlight it provides, turning its Fire Blasts into absolute nukes and making Water-, Rock- and Ground-types wary of switching in, in fear of a Solar Beam that can easily take them out. Focus Blast provides sufficient coverage for the winged blazing reptile and Roost completes every Mega Charizard Y set, providing a form of reliable recovery and temporarily removing the Electric-type weakness while turning Ice into a resistance for the same turn.
That said, though, Mega Charizard Y still suffers from that annoying SR weakness, but fortunately, the ubiquity of Defog makes this less of an issue. Its base 78 Defense also isn't the greatest, but defensive sets easily solve this problem by spreading burns. These flaws aside, Mega Charizard Y once again manages to shine on the battlefield with a newfound quality that adds much more depth to this Pokémon. Mega Charizard Y for A+.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Volcarona should stay C+ (or even B-). The metagame is specially harsh to it (specially two things who are 100% counters named Talonflame and Pinsir), has a lot of checks and because the pmetagem is physically based, it's a bit harsh on it.

However, Volcarona is the best Quiver Danc with difference, the only two fo the Quiver Dances that are viable (and the only one that uses to his own), has a move (Fiery Dance) who has a 50% chance of go to +1, and can have many sets with different checks and counters.

Aout Alomomola, it's no way B-. Scald is not amove to use as burn. Scald is an special attack that has a chance of buring the opponent.

Scald is a great option in bulky waters (andin general, non-frail Water-types unless miss key 2HKOes or OHKOes) because the high chance of burning surpassing the loss of power from Surf.

However, Scald hasn't any use when you can't 2HKO Talonflame after rocks, one of the pokemon that are more specially frail of the entire metagame:
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 116-140 (38.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What about Landorus-T:
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 104-126 (32.5 - 39.3%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'll give to Alomomola a C rank, only because it has Regenerator + Wish (without that, it's a clear E rank). But if you want a physical bulky watrer with Regenrator, use Slowbro.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Aout Alomomola, it's no way B-. Scald is not amove to use as burn. Scald is an special attack that has a chance of buring the opponent.

Scald is a great option in bulky waters (andin general, non-frail Water-types unless miss key 2HKOes or OHKOes) because the high chance of burning surpassing the loss of power from Surf.

However, Scald hasn't any use when you can't 2HKO Talonflame after rocks, one of the pokemon that are more specially frail of the entire metagame:
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 116-140 (38.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What about Landorus-T:
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 104-126 (32.5 - 39.3%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'll give to Alomomola a C rank, only because it has Regenerator + Wish (without that, it's a clear E rank). But if you want a physical bulky watrer with Regenrator, use Slowbro.

You completely fail to mention how Alomomola can pass its enormous Wishes to other Pokémon (they're 267 HP ones, FYI), the third-largest of all (behind Chansey and Blissey). Slowbro may be stupidly resilient, but so is Alomomola. Alomomola also lacks a secondary typing that leaves it weak to Pursuit. Honestly, Scald is meant to be used as a supporting move on Alomomola; if you don't like it, then fucking use Waterfall off of 70 Attack. What Slowbro can't do, either, is pass Wishes, something Alomomola is praised for in RU and UU. Its large amount of team support, coupled with its enormous longevity, makes it a definite B-.

 

[Flamer]

About Alomomola, it's no way B-. Scald is not amove to use as burn. Scald is an special attack that has a chance of buring the opponent.

Scald is a great option in bulky waters (andin general, non-frail Water-types unless miss key 2HKOes or OHKOes) because the high chance of burning surpassing the loss of power from Surf.

However, Scald hasn't any use when you can't 2HKO Talonflame after rocks, one of the pokemon that are more specially frail of the entire metagame:
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 116-140 (38.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What about Landorus-T:
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 104-126 (32.5 - 39.3%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'll give to Alomomola a C rank, only because it has Regenerator + Wish (without that, it's a clear E rank). But if you want a physical bulky watrer with Regenrator, use Slowbro.

You're really understating Mola's biggest asset. Wish+Regenerator is an amazing boon for stall and balance, not to mention its amazing defenses which are so much better in practice than in theory, it is imo more reliable than Chansey as a wish passer due to Regenerator keeping it healthy at the same time, not to mention a lack of 4mss (In the case of WishTect Chansey). Scald is just a side note, if you really wanna do decent damage, with a wall of all things, use Waterfall, but you'll find that the burn chance is too valuable to give up.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Alomomola can also sponge Knock Offs, something Slowbro can't really do. It's also not weak to U-turn and can actually outstall Aegislash if it gets a Scald burn, which Slowbro could only dream of.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Mega Charizard Y (A) -> A+ | I completely agree on Mega Charizard Y moving back to A+. The aforementioned defensive set does its job really well on Stall teams, synergizing with many walls such as Amoonguss and Skarmory. The defensive set can easily spread burns and take hits from both spectrums well due to its unpredictability as a defensive Pokémon, while still hitting relatively hard with a Sun-boosted Flamethrower coming from base 159 Special Attack. This same set helps combat the one-dimensionality that Mega Charizard Y was once said to suffer from. Outside of a defensive role on Stall, Mega Charizard Y remains a brilliant special wallbreaker with the sunlight it provides, turning its Fire Blasts into absolute nukes and making Water-, Rock- and Ground-types wary of switching in, in fear of a Solar Beam that can easily take them out. Focus Blast provides sufficient coverage for the winged blazing reptile and Roost completes every Mega Charizard Y set, providing a form of reliable recovery and temporarily removing the Electric-type weakness while turning Ice into a resistance for the same turn.
That said, though, Mega Charizard Y still suffers from that annoying SR weakness, but fortunately, the ubiquity of Defog makes this less of an issue. Its base 78 Defense also isn't the greatest, but defensive sets easily solve this problem by spreading burns. These flaws aside, Mega Charizard Y once again manages to shine on the battlefield with a newfound quality that adds much more depth to this Pokémon. Mega Charizard Y for A+.

I second this. Even though I've stopped using Zard-Y on my main team due to metagame trends, it's still an extremely viable Pokemon that can tear through pretty much anything not named Chansey or Blissey. He also essentially loses a Water weakness due to the sun powering down Water moves, making him the perfect Pokemon to take Scalds. Even Keldeo's Hydro Pump becomes a 2HKO while Zard Y can OHKO with Solarbeam.

Also, nominating Chansey

for A rank.
This think is a defensive monster. Even some Physical wallbreakers struggle to 2HKO this bitch. It has all the tools to stall out opponents including Toxic, T-Wave, Seismic Toss, Soft Boiled, Wish, and Protect. There is simply no better Wall in the metagame. It very much shapes the metagame, because if a team does not have a dedicated counter for Chansey, that team will almost always lose.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't feel like a defensive set for Zard Y would be enough to increase its rank. You still have that SR weakness (and thus still need hazard removal) and even burned oppenents can still one shot you with Stone Edge (or at least I'm assuming that since I can't calc atm). Yeah Will-O-Wisp fucks with some of your checks/counters, but you give up ANY chance of dealing with Lati@s and become Charizard X setup bait (who also does the defensive thing better).

Then again I could be totally wrong. Does anybody have any replays of defensive Zard Y in action?

 

[Kyuzeth]

I don't feel like a defensive set for Zard Y would be enough to increase its rank. You still have that SR weakness (and thus still need hazard removal) and even burned oppenents can still one shot you with Stone Edge (or at least I'm assuming that since I can't calc atm). Yeah Will-O-Wisp fucks with some of your checks/counters, but you give up ANY chance of dealing with Lati@s and become Charizard X setup bait (who also does the defensive thing better).

Then again I could be totally wrong. Does anybody have any replays of defensive Zard Y in action?

Have you watched the replay included in the Mega Charizard Y post? That should already give you a good example.

 

[Karxrida]

Have you watched the replay included in the Mega Charizard Y post? That should already give you a good example.

Like I said before, tunnel vision lol. I can't watch it atm anyway (yay phones) but I don't think 1 replay would be a good enough indicator. 4-5 would be nice.