Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

[Lumari]

Just interjecting to say I hope you mean Gastrodon.

Uh, that could work too, but I was referring to DPPt ubers actually.. Iirc Quagsire was used as a Kyogre counter there? Not around then but that's what I've heard. Edit: confirmed by the DP strategy dex as well.

 

[Fireburn]

Shed Shell, U-turn, dry Baton passing, to name a few. Situational and a stupidly high opportunity cost, I know, but no higher than running niche stuff like Quagsire to counter Kyogre. And I'm not saying luck is the only thing that can make a metagame uncompetitive; I am saying it has been the only reason for past bans from Ubers, so those cannot easily be used as precedents for banning Shadow Tag.

Shed Shell is a horrible counter argument, its a hardly viable option on any Pokemon except for ones that absolutely can't do anything to Gengar and even then it massively limits utility by denying walls Leftovers. Many targets for Shadow Tag (Arceus formes and certain Megas) don't even have the option of holding Shed Shell.

Everything that can U-turn is slower than Gengar and even then only a few Pokemon even get switching moves.

Basically nothing relevant in Ubers learns Baton Pass aside from Blaziken (who already can't be trapped cuz Speed Boost) and Scolipede (who can't do anything unless it runs EQ, and even if it passes out Speed Gar or something could just DBond to put the receiver in a checkmate position).

Stating Quagsire as a Kyogre counter shows to me that you lack current Ubers metagame knowledge; Quagsire is no longer used as a Kyogre counter. Instead, it is used for Unaware to take on some physical attackers like EKiller and MBlaziken. Gastrodon largely outclasses it as a Kyogre counter.

The precedent was that Swagger and Moody were banned for being uncompetitive i.e. they took skill out of the game. Shadow Tag does the same thing, except it does so not by luck but by massively amplifying the importance of team matchup. Either way, skill is no longer the predominant factor that decides battles, which is the whole problem. As I said before, the process of getting to that point is different, but the end result is the same. Luck was simply why they were uncompetitive, it doesn't change the fact they were banned for being uncompetitive.

 

[Lumari]

Shed Shell is a horrible counter argument, its a hardly viable option on any Pokemon except for ones that absolutely can't do anything to Gengar and even then it massively limits utility by denying walls Leftovers. Many targets for Shadow Tag (Arceus formes and certain Megas) don't even have the option of holding Shed Shell.

Everything that can U-turn is slower than Gengar and even then only a few Pokemon even get switching moves.

Basically nothing relevant in Ubers learns Baton Pass aside from Blaziken (who already can't be trapped cuz Speed Boost) and Scolipede (who can't do anything unless it runs EQ, and even if it passes out Speed Gar or something could just DBond to put the receiver in a checkmate position).

Stating Quagsire as a Kyogre counter shows to me that you lack current Ubers metagame knowledge; Quagsire is no longer used as a Kyogre counter. Instead, it is used for Unaware to take on some physical attackers like EKiller and MBlaziken. Gastrodon largely outclasses it as a Kyogre counter.

The precedent was that Swagger and Moody were banned for being uncompetitive i.e. they took skill out of the game. Shadow Tag does the same thing, except it does so not by luck but by massively amplifying the importance of team matchup. Either way, skill is no longer the predominant factor that decides battles, which is the whole problem. As I said before, the process of getting to that point is different, but the end result is the same. Luck was simply why they were uncompetitive, it doesn't change the fact they were banned for being uncompetitive.

You're missing my point. I thought the Ubers mentality was 'if I desperately need my Palkia to check Kyogre and can't afford to have it trapped, I'll slap a Shed Shell on it, even though it's not ideal, but STag is around and we'll simply have to make do', rather than 'help, Gengar's being an obnoxious dick, let's get rid of it'. (please don't hammer on my semantics here, I know this is an STag discussion but my comments need to be legible :p) I was stating getting rid of Shadow Tag would contradict this mentality, as it involves simply taking what you get, and the 'viability' of solutions is an OU argument imo. As shrang would say, suck it up and deal with it. I'd like to leave it at this btw, I have made my point in my first post, which was to a) comment on the ubers integrity, regardless of the current metagame, because I assume this has remained the same throughout all generations, and b) point out I thought grouping STag and Swagger together was a stretch, which you've addressed. I'm glad to read your last paragraph, because that shows you're thinking in a way I can agree with (unlike what I was reading from your post I first quoted). As for the actual in-depth reasoning towards a conclusion, others have made better posts than I ever could and I don't think I'll be able to contribute much to that part of the discussion :)

 

[shrang]

No it doesn't. We have precedent for banning stuff like this before (i.e. Moody, Swagger). Because of this, we have established that banning uncompetitive things from Ubers is okay. If, therefore, it is proven that Gengarite/STAG are uncompetitive as well (which they are), then we can freely ban them without ruining the integrity of the tier. The real question is whether or not you think Gengarite/Shadow Tag is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban.

And your precedents are getting more lax as we go on. If you've noticed, the other ones had clear reasons why they were uncompetitive, while Shadow Tag is a lot more dubious, if we're going by your definitions.

The argument that "it's fair because I can do it too" doesn't help because at the end, when the Shadow Tag Pokemon have done their job, the person with the better set of rocks is still going to win. Then it becomes not a question of "can I outplay the other guy" but "can I trap his counter to my sweeper before he does mine?".

Explain why this is uncompetitive? This sounds more like an overcentralisation argument than an uncompetitive one if you ask me. You've still outplayed the other guy if you managed to execute your game plan of trapping counters before your opponent does. It's the same thing as something like "instead of can I outplay the other guy, can I use my Garchomp counter-counter to remove his Garchomp counter before he does mine" (you should recognise where that came from, and it's not Ubers).

You are wrongly assuming that Shadow Tag is one of many things that makes team matchup a problem. It is a single thing that affects everything in ways nothing else does. Team matchup is one of the three variables that decide matches, the others being skill and luck, just because of the kind of game Pokemon is and true balance is more or less impossible to achieve. Player skill is expressed by making smart switches and reacting to your opponent's switches and moves. Shadow Tag removes that, hence skill is gone from the equation. That means you're left with team matchup and luck...do we have a competitive game anymore? At the end of the day, Shadow Tag does the same thing Moody and Swagger did: it removes skill from the equation of deciding Pokemon battles. The methodology is different, but the end result is the same.

I'm not assuming this, it's straight out of pro-ban arguments. Might I remind you:

The reality is that when two tag players play eachother, the one with the better team matchup will win consistently because it takes zero skill to apply your shadow tag strategy before the other guy when it already matchup in it's favor starting the game off with that player in the favorable position to do so.

This isn't something I made up you know. And like I just mentioned above, pulling off your Shadow Tag strategy before your opponent still means you outplayed your opponent, which implies that there's skill involved. See what I mean by "fair" and "unfair"? The other clauses had the fact that even if you outplayed your opponent, you can still lose. Shadow Tag, on the other hand, still requires you to outplay your opponent. This is also not to mention the fact that Shadow Tag isn't even a 100% success rate thing either. Gengar can't run Taunt/Shadow Ball/HP Fire/Focus Miss/Destiny Bond/Perish Song all the same set, so there will be things you can't trap and things you can. There's also the question of getting Gengar in safely (I've seen shit like Dark Pulse Grassceus from Orch), Mega Evolving, or even predicting between Taunt/Destiny Bond (eg will Ekiller set up SD again while you DBond, or will it kill you with Shadow Claw as you Taunt it). Even then, removing that counter isn't the be all and end all in bring out your GeoXern or Ekiller or whatever to sweep. You opponent can still stop that sweeper from setting up, killing it outright while you're doing so, setting up their own sweep while you're trying to find switch-ins, and the whole issue of secondary checks. You're hopelessly oversimplifying the whole thing if you think Shadow Tag is the one silver bullet that would fix anything.

If Shadow Tag is the thing making things worse, is it not therefore the problem? Yes, team matchup is inherent in Pokemon because that's the nature of the game. But when you have Shadow Tag displacing its effects such that it overtakes skill as the primary method of deciding games, that is when it becomes a problem. And it is a problem, otherwise we wouldn't be testing it.

I think the fact Melee Mewtwo went 5-0 in SPL against arguably superior players by relying on STAG alone is enough of a "direct impact".
4-1, last game was a joke game where I brought Bunnelby and almost won but manaphy's Xern haxed my Xern when Wobbuffet gave it an otherwise free setup to win. /salt ~MM2

A couple of things wrong with the MM2 example:
- Shadow Tag didn't decide anything in that battle. The loss came as a "direct impact" from hax, if anything.
- We've been using Wobbuffet to provide opportunities for deadly sweepers since 2007. It wasn't an issue. Why is it a problem now? Yes, we have deadlier Shadow Tag users now, but nothing has fundamentally changed. What has changed is the mentality that banning things in Ubers is okay, and we've moved the goalposts further and further apart for shit that can be banned. Let's not let that trend continue.

 

[SoulRed12]

Again, you are making the assumption that there is skill involved.

...

. . . Shadow Tag would have removed the player skill . . .

In any multiplayer game, when someone talks about "removing skill," they can be referring to either of two things. First is a pseudo-removal of skill because something is so easy to use to great benefit and comes with very little or no opportunity cost ("win button"). Second is a true removal of skill because it puts things into the hands of the RNG ("coin flip"). For example, one could say that allowing the use of Mewtwo in OU "removes skill" because it's so strong and versatile that it can sweep entire teams mostly regardless of their makeup. That's a win button, not a coin flip. Although it can ravage through teams, there is still skill involved. A player using it could still lose if they're so unskilled and/or their opponent is so skilled that their opponent is able to play around it, despite the fact that due to its power misplaying could mean devastation. This is the sense in which people used to berate perma-rain abusers in BW, by saying rain "takes no skill" because it makes it so easy to win. (Whether one actually agrees that rain in BW was overpowered is irrelevant.)

In the other category, coin flips, you've got prankster swagger, which "removes skill" because it literally makes skill irrelevant by taking decisions out of a player's hands and putting them into the hands of the machine. No amount of difference in skill can get you around confusion's RNG game. OHKO moves and Moody also belong here for obvious reasons, but I think swagger is the coin flip poster child. Whereas in the case of MGar, you said it yourself: it greatly increases the risk of each decision; but it doesn't take the decision out of either player's hands entirely. It may be unfun, and it may be unfair, but if you're good enough (and/or the opponent is bad enough) you can IN THEORY play around it. Which is not the case with prankster swagger.

The so-called "luck" in these two cases is quite different, because one involves what two players happen to decide to do (the kind of "luck" involved in everyday battling, albeit with much higher stakes), whereas the other involves neither player (instead consulting only the RNG). Thus, if MGar is banned for shadow tag, even if for good reason, it would be without precedent. Which doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be banned, it just means one can't simply point at Swagger for justification, and implications for the future would have to be seriously and carefully considered.

 

[Inspirited]

This discussion is far more more dangerous than Swagger in my eyes and it has to do with where we draw the line that separates unbalanced elements from uncompetitive elements. This makes the discussion extremely opinionated if there is a split between the mass (which there definitely is).

Background of banning in Ubers:

• OHKO Clause: Every OHKO move has only 30% accuracy but this is only a theoretical. The RNG could be extremely kind to a player and allow 6 of these moves to hit which would effectively end a game and even one landing on a key core member could mean your game is over. Any number of events could occur depending on the RNG here with severe consequences to the either party depending on what it dictates. This is almost entirely Luck based
  
• Moody Clause: The RNG dictates what boosts and what drops you get per turn which can cause extremely stupid games to occur for either player. Sure it will likely shoot you in the foot, but it can mean a 1st day player could beat someone like Malefic 6-0 which is rather ridiculous when considering skill differences. This is almost entirely Luck based
  
• Sleep Clause: This is a slight bit different and was implemented primarily due to an absolutely stupid amount of over-centralization and some RNG factors. Sleep Talk was the primary method of dealing with it, and only having a 33% to get the move you needed was the straw that broke the camel's back. Moves that put your opponent to sleep are extremely over-centralizing and the best way to deal with it is Luck based
  
• Swagger Clause: I don't think I need to explain this one with how recently the ban took place. This is almost entirely Luck based

The Wild Cards:

• Endless Battle Clause: This one just went against the philosophy of the game itself. The person who won was the person with the most time on their hands / the most patience. It did take some skill to set up, the idea of an endless battle was stupid to begin with. Forcing your opponent / yourself to forfeit depending on personal time constraints was just a dick move to begin with. Not only that, but it might explode in front of your face depending on your own time.
• Species Clause: Like an above poster said, this has been heavily embedded tradition since the Pokemon Stadium days.

My Opinion:

The problem with Gengarite and Shadow Tag is that everything that takes place and directly involves them is completely in the hands of the players. The RNG has no say in the team match-ups and the way the match-up executed. We are dealing with new reasoning in "<suspect> greatly amplifies the importance of team match-up" if I read all of your posts correctly (apologies if I didn't). This is competing with strategies that are almost all RNG based, have had extreme over-centralization issues (and I mean EXTREME x_x), and a strategy that FORCES a forfeit from one of the two players if executed correctly. The most comparable reasoning is the reasoning that banned the endless battle strategy, but they are still for from comparable. The reasoning for Endless Battle Clause was also very well accepted among very experienced players. This is not the case here at all which raises the question: Does this reasoning warrant a ban on Gengarite or even Shadow Tag as a whole? Myself, I think that a large split and that it is sitting right on the blurred line between uncompetitive and unbalanced is enough proof to show that it isn't.

I also agree with shrang that we are "widening the goal posts" on what we ban a bit far and that we should stop this before Ubers loses its "Uber" flavor that we all know and love.

With the potential of Gengarite Clause and Shadow Tag Clause, there needs to be a stronger basis than "<suspect> amplifies the importance of team match-up" in my honest opinion. As of now I am against the ban with an open mind if someone has better reasoning.

 

[Emperor]

Again, you are making the assumption that there is skill involved. Probably this derives from you assuming that each team with Shadow Tag is equal to another. They aren't. They are both going to be trying to prey on different things to assure their win condition and that means one is going to be in a more favorable position in doing so.

Let's look at a example:

-Player A will be using Scarf Kyogre, Eplate Lando, Mega Gar, Ekiller, Klefki, Palkia (a fairly standard team)
-Player B will be using Kangaskhan, TR Gothitelle, Keys, EP Lando, Scarf Zekrom, CM Wisp Waterceus (one of my SPL teams cept with TR over Taunt on Goth cause more fun)

Player A can attempt to use Mega Gar to trap Water Arc and open up room for a Scarf Kyogre / Ekiller sweep or simply apply pressure with Lando-T. However, Scarf Kyogre will still need to deal with Zekrom, Keys para, Kanga priority, and Gothitelle. Ekiller has to find rooom to setup and then muscle past Lando-T. The opposing Lando-T can create some free turns and apply pressure but Player B still has Lando and can make it difficult to find those free turns if pressed to.

Player B just needs to trap Palkia, Kyogre, or Klefki and he wins. He also has Kanga that can take advantage of the fact Player A is using Ekiller over a wisp Arceus to apply pressure on Player A's team. (if you changed ekiller to arc forme that adds more room for Goth sweep) This means Player A has to rely on his Gengar and Lando to keep Kanga in check, two key mons for his win condition. He also has to avoid trying to use Scarf Kyogre to pressure out Water Arceus as it can lead to a Gohtitelle trap and sweep. Palkia can't be used to check Water Arc if the need arises cause of Gothitelle so Player B also has that as a win con. Player B has reduced risk to clicking a Dragon-tye move with Zekrom because bringing Keys in to stop it can mean a Gothitelle sweep. Ekiller won't against Player B accomplish much unless the rest of the team A pitches in.

I thin it's pretty easy to tell that Player A has an insurmountable team matchup disadvantage as it quite literally can't use half of his team due to potential repercussions from Gothitelle and can not use the other half because they need to be reserved to construct a win condition and are vulnerable to the other 5 Pokemon on Player B's team.

It may seem like there is skill or choice involved just at preview but it's pretty clear that Player A has no possible chance to win this game because of Shadow Tag, he lost at Team Preview.

I think you're jumping the gun a bit with this example. There is no possible way either player could look at the opposing team and guarantee that they know every set the opponent has (especially Arceus.) That may not be a massive game changer BUT it does mean that the game will be played differently since, as far as Player B knows, that Kyogre could be a specs Kyogre and no matter what EVs you have:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle in Rain: 454-535 (131.9 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle in Rain: 303-357 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Granted, I have no idea how you'd actually play Goth since I'm definitely not an Ubers expert and there are definitely ways somebody can work around that. However, the point stands that saying any player would have that kind of information at the beginning of a match just isn't true.

 

[Fireburn]

the potential of Gengarite Clause and Shadow Tag Clause, there needs to be a stronger basis than "<suspect> amplifies the importance of team match-up" in my honest opinion. As of now I am against the ban with an open mind if someone has better reasoning.

I'm responding to just this part since it summarizes your post, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I feel that your are missing the point of the team match-up issue. The point is that it eclipses the importance of skill, just like excessive luck, hence making it uncompetitive. Luck and team match-up are both inherent variables in deciding Pokemon battles. That doesn't mean they are inherently bad, and they're not as long as skill is still what primarily decides the fate of a game. But what Shadow Tag does it that it makes team matchup more important than skill. When other variables start becoming more important than skill, that's where the metagame stops being competitive.

Wanted to make a longer post but I keep losing power. ;[

 

[yoman5]

Following the precedent set by the Moody and OHKO Clauses, the Swagger ban will be extended to Ubers, removing an almost entirely luck-based and destructive part of the metagame. However I'd like to reiterate what I said in the first post. This will NOT be used as a precedent to balance the metagame by removing aspects that are considered "too strong".

Hugen himself said this at the end of the swagger ban. I'm still waiting for a reason from the pro-ban community that doesn't go against this. The entire argument is that shadow tag is "too strong." They argue that it is uncompetitively so, but saying that it wins the game at team preview is still an extent of being too strong. It's not swagger, it's not moody, it's not ohko. There is no rng. You make a team and bring it into battle and from there you use your skills to win. If you screw up and leave yourself kyogre weak, tough luck. If you don't have a xern check, sucks for you. If your supportceus dies to goth and you have nothing to kill goth afterward either, I feel no pity either. Stag is another strong tool in the meta. It may be "overpowered" but that should not be grounds for a ban in ubers.

 

[Emperor]

I'm responding to just this part since it summarizes your post, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I feel that your are missing the point of the team match-up issue. The point is that it eclipses the importance of skill, just like excessive luck, hence making it uncompetitive. Luck and team match-up are both inherent variables in deciding Pokemon battles. That doesn't mean they are inherently bad, and they're not as long as skill is still what primarily decides the fate of a game. But what Shadow Tag does it that it makes team matchup more important than skill. When other variables start becoming more important than skill, that's where the metagame stops being competitive.

Wanted to make a longer post but I keep losing power. ;[

The problem is that Shadow Tag makes team matchup more important than skill but doesn't entirely remove it from the match. As I stated in an earlier post, if Stag made it so that no switches were EVER possible then we'd have ourselves an uncompetitive feature. However, as long as it doesn't do that, then it seems fair by Uber standards as an extremely overpowered support option.

 

[doublenikesocks]

Okay so I haven't played much in a while cause the metagame got stale. Now while I believe that Shadow Tag is the reason for this as it removes switching which is the definitive element of singles, banning a single mon in mGengar is the wrong way of doing this. Starting out with a Shadow Tag suspect would have been the right choice because this is ubers. We don't test items or Pokemon. We test abilities and luck-based elements. Assuming I get reqs I will have a much longer and more in-depth post.

Also if anyone is wondering, I came into this suspect completely unbiased. Only my playtime on the ladder will decide for me. (I kind of choose my side by the posts in this thread.)

 

[Kebabe]

First of, this suspect is chosen in a way that makes it really difficult to see whats going on. I can kinda get the argument that trapping is a bit uncompetitive but that is not what this suspect test is about. This test is just targeted at one specific Pokemon. And its not about Mega Gengar being too good:

We are not asking if Gengarite is overcentralizing or overpowered. We are asking this question: Is Gengarite an uncompetitive element of the metagame that needs to be removed to preserve the competitive integrity of Ubers, within the current paradigm of Ubers?

Okey so what is uncompetitiveness? I think we all can agree on that its about removing skill from the game. Its something that you can not do something vs based on skill. For example, OHKO moves was really uncompetitive, you could not do anything about it, they had a 30% chance of just KOing you, nothing you could do, just hope for a miss. Evasion (I know its not banned but come on) and Moody. Is Mega Gengar broken in that way? No obviously not. You can build your team so it includes a pursuit trapper or just have a more offensive inclined team to not allow anything more then a 1 for 1. And just have a lot of hard hiters and priority to take care of set up sweepers.

The other way something can be uncompetitive is in the way that sleeping moves was without Sleep clause. Sleep is already kind of luck based so it can be argued a bit like the other clauses but its uncompetitiveness is not as obvious as the other ones. What made this uncompetitive was that it was simpöy too good. Not good in a way that in centralized the meta game but Darkrai was so good that it beat everything, even its counters. If it gets in vs anything slower (pretty much anything) or vs anything that cant to 75% to it its already over. Sub+Taunt+Sleep was impossible to beat. Is teams with Mega Gengar impossible to beat? No. Just run a solid pursuit trapper like Tyranitar or Spiritomb on your stall team. Or a team that doesn't rely on having every Pokemon left to be able to check threats. ie offense.

Mega Gengar might be very good and centralizing but its nowhere near uncompetitive and should not be banned.

 

[Fixed]

As far as I can see, the most common reason to ban Gengarite/Shadow Tag is that it makes team matchup much more important, with many games decided by matchup alone. While I agree that the metagame would probably be more enjoyable if team matchup didn't matter as much, I don't think that we should be banning anything in Ubers for this cause. Many changes from gen 5 to 6 have made the Ubers metagame more matchup based, are we going to ban Sticky Web next because the teams that abuse it win/lose on team preview most of the time?

 

[Haunted Diamond]

While what you say makes sense, but imo goth/gengar and stciky web are very different scenarios. Sticky web is a full team strategy while goth and mgar are just a pokemon. If someone's team is very sticky web weak they can take care of the weakness simply with stuff ranging from a magic coat lead and defog to mons like yveltal. But this isn't the case with stag (especially goth as it doesnt take a turn to mevo like mgar) and there's no way to really stop it.
This is just my point of view and I don't insist that everyone should see the issue like me.

 

[Nayrz]

I fear that inexperience / lack of knowledge will derail the topic and people will fail to realize why Gengarite is actually being reviewed here. Most anti-ban arguments are centered around this one ideology - "You can't ban things from Ubers". It's already been addressed by our older tier leader, Bojangles, that Ubers isn't the place where nothing is banned, at least not any more. Due to the retesting of clauses in Generation 5, Ubers became (in Bojangles's words) "The metagame with the least amount of bans possible". This already throws out the idea that you cannot ban something from Ubers, which from my experience in reading this thread and talking to those against this suspect, is the most common argument against it. Why let an old mentality make your decisions for you? Times change, metagames change. Even Ubers is no exception, you would be a fool to think that GF would never come up with a Pokemon/Ability/Item that is just too broken that it could even be called "uncompetitive", even by our very high standards. While I think a questionable decision was made regarding testing Gengarite first and not Shadow Tag as a whole (as this now gives those against the idea that we are trying to ban a Pokemon instead of the main issue - Shadow Tag), I hope people realise that if Gengarite is banned, then Shadow Tag will be suspected right after it. You think Mega Gengar can be played around, but Gothitelle is worse? Vote to ban Gengarite, and then vote for a Shadow Tag ban when that comes after it. It really is that simple.
I also question the skill level of those that say "you can counter / play around Mega Gengar" - How in the hell do you counter something with SHADOW TAG? You don't switch into it. You just can't. Your only chance is to give it a hard time to Mega Evolve, which if all you run is purely offensive pokemon then sure, Mega Gengar has some troubles Mega Evolving, but you forget that Mega Gengar can nearly always force a 1/1 trade. I've seen a growing trend of "Thunder Wave on everything" just to try and stop Mega Gengar from taking down a vulnerable mon.
"Oh so you want to ban X because its uncompetitive? Why don't we ban Y because of *insert silly reason*"
This is also a dumb argument. Whatever you put into "insert silly reason" it usually comes down to the fact that the thing you compare it to is A) nothing like Shadow Tag (showing lack of experience really) and/or B) has checks and counters, and Shadow Tag has no checks and counters, making it a moot point. This is a very big decision, and one that will make Ubers history, so I implore you all to make rational thoughts before making a decision like this if you can get the requirements.

 

[orch]

Sticky is a gimmick and very bad versus virtually all match ups. They're not comparable at all. My stance on Gengarite is the same as Haxiom and Kebabe. It is literally teambuilders' fault to be weak to shadow tag. Using SpD Palkia, and you dont have pursuit? Better use dragon tail on it then. Using Defog Arceus that's not ghost or dark and get trapped? Geez, I wonder why. And, it goes on.

Since we're discussing Gengarite, and it's really obvious that Gengar-Mega without Shadow Tag is not broken at all. So, the main culprit is Shadow Tag. (Which makes me wonder why we're wasting time with Gengarite test AND shadow tag test, and most people probably would prefer to go straight to shadow tag test...)

Shadow Tag matches up versus offense very poorly. Gengar is usually forced to take 1 for 1 trade, and offense can easily adapt around it. Gothitelle is practically dead weight vs offense. Just because shadow tag is good vs stall and balance does not mean that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive. It just means that people are refusing to adapt to Gengarite and Gothitelle.

Even though shadow tag is excellent versus stall, Hack He Must has built the, IMO, best stall team for this metagame. And, that team is Tyranitar/Blissey/Arceus-Grass/Ho-Oh/Mewtwo/Excadrill. Gothitelle only can trap one mon before being pursuit trapped. Gengar is forced to make 50/50 and deal with misses. And, even if goth/gengar manages to trap and kill one of mon, the core is still intact to out-stall opponent. Wobbuffet is lol.

My point is that, despite of the existence of Shadow Tag, stall is still one of better archetype to use. I hope that pro-banners see the irony in this statement.

 

[Fixed]

While what you say makes sense, but imo goth/gengar and stciky web are very different scenarios. Sticky web is a full team strategy while goth and mgar are just a pokemon. If someone's team is very sticky web weak they can take care of the weakness simply with stuff ranging from a magic coat lead and defog to mons like yveltal. But this isn't the case with stag (especially goth as it doesnt take a turn to mevo like mgar) and there's no way to really stop it.
This is just my point of view and I don't insist that everyone should see the issue like me.

I don't see the big difference. Gengar/Gothitelle is just one pokemon, just like Smeargle/Shuckle. They work similarly in some sense as both provide support for a wide range of offensive threats to function better. Both can be dealt with (Pursuit vs Shadow Tag users) and both have ways of possibly beating these counters (Nuzzle Smeargle vs Magic Coat, MMY for Darkrai, counters to Yveltal/Shaymin-S/Landorus-T, whereas Gengar can run coverage to beat common Pursuiters).

 

[Haunted Diamond]

If goth is bound to stay you have to deal with the fact that you will almost always lose your defogger/cleric/X's counter (whereas X is a threat) and need a spot for a mon like tyranitar who is one of the worse sr setters and its only role is to couter yveltal.
Plus lets not forget about reflect goth and reflect type mgar...
I play stall every now and then(im not very good at team building but still) and every time goth removes a key mon like arceus rock even though i pursuit trap it, stuff like victini or ho oh just run over my team and im helpless. The way goth messes up the core of a team is just beyond your control.

 

[Emperor]

If goth is bound to stay you have to deal with the fact that you will almost always lose your defogger/cleric/X's counter (whereas X is a threat) and need a spot for a mon like tyranitar who is one of the worse sr setters and its only role is to couter yveltal.
Plus lets not forget about reflect goth and reflect type mgar...
I play stall every now and then(im not very good at team building but still) and every time goth removes a key mon like arceus rock even though i pursuit trap it, stuff like victini or ho oh just run over my team and im helpless. The way goth messes up the core of a team is just beyond your control.

I hate to be that guy, but perhaps the fact that goth removing one mon from your team made you lose might be a sign that your team wasn't particularly good to begin with? You said yourself, you're not particularly good at team building. Shadow Taggers eat up teams that aren't constructed well.

That and, as far as I can see, there isn't any kind of uncompetitive play from that use of shadow tag. The user was smart enough to figure out that their shadow tagger should be used on Arceus. That takes some intelligence and, as stated in an earlier post, isn't something that you can always figure out on team preview. Heck

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uberssuspecttest-145686554

You can use shadow tag and still play terribly.

 

[Disaster Area]

Yes that shows why a poor player with shadow tag might lose in a reasonably favourable matchup, HOWEVER what if the player doesn't misuse it? At the top level of play, versus someone who knows how to use shadow tag, you cannot play around it or outsmart someone over it unless the matchup is favourable for you, even if both sides are using shadow tag. What you're saying doesn't hold water since it relies on the player being incapable of using their tools, which is a blatantly stupid assumption.

 

[haxiom]

You don't necessarily play around shadow tag. You build your team around it.

Gengar has to spend a turn to mega evolve, and dies to pursuit, so if you're playing a bulky offense/stall team then you add a pursuit trapper to your team. Scizor and Tyranitar are both perfectly viable in ubers and this isn't an unreasonable thing to ask of players. It's no different than, say, every single offensive team needing a Palkia for the last 3 generations to handle scarf Kyogre.

Offensive teams don't really have an issue with mega Gengar. Arceus, Darkrai, Mewtwo all out speed before the mega evo, Yveltal wins 1v1 if he has taunt and sucker punch, Genesect can u-turn, and anything with a scarf is faster even after the evolution.

I get it, but Gengar can carry HP Fire and fblast (chople exists, I know) and stuff and you ultimately end up having to play well to not get destroyed by Gengar if you are using stall.

 

[Disaster Area]

HOW MANY TIMES TO WE NEED TO SAY THIS

Gengar cannot be successfully pursuit-trapped.

Offensive teams do have issues with mega gengar, since it can still go 1 vs 1, sacking itself to destiny bond to take out for example yveltal or palkia (and the latter then lets kyogre be very problematic).

 

[Minority]

Why are people talking about Mega Gengar destroying stall as an excuse to ban it when that is not the reason that Fireburn outlined. Stalltwo wrecks stall harder in many ways but are we going to ban that, and since when is Ubers going to ban something to preserve a play style; this is not OU.

Also

Gengar cannot *ALWAYS be successfully pursuit-trapped.

fixed <3

 

[Emperor]

Yes that shows why a poor player with shadow tag might lose in a reasonably favourable matchup, HOWEVER what if the player doesn't misuse it? At the top level of play, versus someone who knows how to use shadow tag, you cannot play around it or outsmart someone over it unless the matchup is favourable for you, even if both sides are using shadow tag. What you're saying doesn't hold water since it relies on the player being incapable of using their tools, which is a blatantly stupid assumption.

I agree that assuming that a player is incapable of using their tools properly is a "stupid assumption." However, assuming that all players will use their tools correctly (like picking the wrong move) isn't fair either and stating that at the top level players have the power to see all of their opponents tools is also untrue. And, as Minority Suspect just pointed out, we've already described how brutally powerful Stag play is. We're talking about Overpowered play versus Uncompetitive play. But, I have yet to have a match where I haven't felt like I had at least a chance to win.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uberssuspecttest-145741103 (Example)

It may not have been an easy match and I think each side made its own sets of misplays ( I know I made a lot of bad ones :P) However, even though gengar was on my mind, it didn't ruin the game. It just made it different.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

It's more a matter of "trap arceus rock and ho oh will sweep" or "trap chansey and palkia will sweep" or "trap palkia and kyogre will sweep" with goth, while I don't make the best teams, I think it's obvious that you can't have multiple counters to good wall breakers like ho oh or palkia. There's just no room for it. And if your counter is gone then you are simply in deep trouble.