Counter that Core! CharChomp Submissions, See Post #40

[BLOOD TOTEM]

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 129-152 (42 - 49.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 179-212 (58.3 - 69%)

NOT
A
COUNTER

 

[Deoxymoron]

Okay you know what
A 2-mon counter to a 2-mon core is way easier than a 1-mon counter to a 2-mon core. Electrolyte, I think you need to specify whether the counter should be 1 or 2 pokes, because right now there's some imbalance with submissions.

 

[Electrolyte]

I said in the OP

It doesn't matter whether you post a 1 mon core or a 2 mon core, but obviously 1 mon cores stand at higher ground if they are as reliable as 2 mon cores.

So literally

So the concept of this project is easy. Every (~)week or so, a common and popular core will be posted. It will be up to you guys to post counters to that core, either another pair or a single Pokemon. At the end of each phase, we will vote on whos submission most reliably counters the core in question. Like Victim of the Week, just with two victims!

 

[Electrolyte]

Ok time for voting! Here are the submissions:

Nollan's Choice Scarf Terrakion
anty208's Mega Lucario
Shaian's Choice Scarf Landorus-T + Togekiss
srk1214's Colbur Berry (>:[) Aegislash
Darkmalice's Choice Scarf Excadrill
Deoxymoron's Azumarill
BLOOD TOTEM's Breloom + Mega Gengar
Arcticblast's LO Keldeo
LightningLuxray's AV Conkeldurr
Hobo Joe's LO Kingdra + Rain
Electrolyte's LO Toxicroak + Amoonguss

I didn't pre-vote filter submissions because you guys are smart and know what works and what doesn't so I didn't need to. I'll give this (probably less than) a week, so get your votes in fast! Remember, there is an emphasis on reliability. How well can the submission counter the core given?

Things to keep in mind (in a prioritized list)
1. Does it actually counter the core? (Simple y/n, do you win in a lead matchup.)
2. Does it counter the core reliably? (Will hax screw you up? Do Speed ties matter? Will there be a lot of prediction necessary? What about HAZERDS and WHETHER)
(If both are yes, then:)
3. How well can the submission switch in? How often / how frequently can it counter the given core throughout a match?
4. Can the submission take advantage of the core to get into an even better position offensively / defensively?
5. How viable is the submission outside of this given situation? Is the submission one that can fit on a variety of teams?

Use your excellent judgement.
Good luck all!

 

[Laga]

TOTEM's MegaGar + shroomz

when this core faces the duo, there is a large chance you will end up killing them both reliably (can't switch out), and if you play properly you will not only keep both alive, but even get a free gengar substitute.

 

[Arcticblast]

maybe I should have _actually_ put something with Follow Me / RP as a Keldeo partner, but that's not swag enough

 

[Torkoals]

Nollan's Choice Scarf Terrakion

This may be the most obvious choice and an already well known core, or at the very least variants of this core, but toge can lead away any damage from landy-t relatively safely
while allowing him to very reliably OHKO both with a 100% accurate EQ.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Darkmalice

 

[Pocket]

anty208's Mega Lucario

Darkmalice's Scarf Excadrill is good, too, but Mega Lucario's resistance to Sucker Punch makes it more reliable.

BLOOD TOTEM's Mega Gar + Breloom is a powerful combo in general, but Terrakion's Quick Guard really makes it tricky to dispose Bisharp

 

[Anty]

Srk, I have always loved colbur aegi

 

[Bughouse]

DM

 

[Electrolyte]

Congratulations to Darkmalice, whose Scarf Excadrill wins this round!

CORE #2

OH JEEBUS (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature
- Heat Wave
- Solarbeam
- Protect
- Overheat

NOT DIS CORE (Garchomp) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Protect


Let's go!

Js try to shy away from RP / FM reliance because not everyone wants to carry Amoonguss / Togekiss on their teams ;_; (I know I'm a hypocrite what can I say)

 

[LightningLuxray]

Congratulations to Darkmalice, whose Scarf Excadrill wins this round!

NOT DIS CORE (Garchomp) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Blaze Garchomp nb.

Anyways here's my core

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 468-551 (157 - 184.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 380-452 (106.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Both outspeed and Landorus-T also cripples Garchomp with Intimidate. Oh and Thundurus also OHKO's Mega Charizard Y with Thunderbolt.

 

[Bughouse]

Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 44 HP / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Psyshock
- Tailwind
- Protect


212 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 181-214 (60.7 - 71.8%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 147-174 (47.1 - 55.7%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 80-95 (25.6 - 30.4%)

212 SpA Life Orb Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 359-424 (100.2 - 118.4%)

 

[Pocket]

That Latias set really needs Roost > Tailwind or a single Protect can spell death for her. Say Latias Dragon Pulse a Garchomp, which Protects. Then Charizard Y is scraping at least a quarter of Latias's health. Next turn, Latias kills off Garchomp and Latias is at 39% health due to LO recoil and 2nd turn of Heat Wave. Charizard Y can then take her down with Overheat while Latias fails to OHKO with Psyshock.

With Roost, Latias can stall Charizard Y after disposing of Garchomp. Otherwise, Latias's chance of beating this core singlehandedly would be a coinflip.

 

[Bughouse]

While that's technically true, assuming Latias's teammate is even remotely threatening to the core it will come out ahead. If it bothers you that much I can put on Roost over Tailwind.

 

[KyleCole]

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Ice Fang
- Protect
- Rain Dance

• outspeeds Garchomp (and therefore Char Y) without needing speed investment
• 80 Atk OHKOs Garchomp with Ice Fang and easily OHKOs Char Y with Rock Slide
• Defensive investment survives a crit stone edge (because high crit chance) and you even survive Rough Skin damage on top of the crit stone edge (even though this chomp has blaze)
• Rain Dance because after I beat you 2v1, Im taking away your sun as well

Turn 1: Rock Slide and survive a Crit Stone Edge
80 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 408-484 (136.9 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 188-222 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Turn 2: Ice Fang Garchomp
80 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 360-424 (100.5 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

edit: jk i only probably survive crit _ rough skin, still the best submission by far though :]

Note: If you want to say "well what if they protect" then you start putting predictions into the mix, and if the opponent can predict and use protect then so can I.

 

[Darkmalice]

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Ice Fang
- Protect
- Rain Dance

• outspeeds Garchomp (and therefore Char Y) without needing speed investment
• 80 Atk OHKOs Garchomp with Ice Fang and easily OHKOs Char Y with Rock Slide
• Defensive investment survives a crit stone edge (because high crit chance) and you even survive Rough Skin damage on top of the crit stone edge (even though this chomp has blaze)
• Rain Dance because after I beat you 2v1, Im taking away your sun as well

Turn 1: Rock Slide and survive a Crit Stone Edge
80 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 408-484 (136.9 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 188-222 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Turn 2: Ice Fang Garchomp
80 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 360-424 (100.5 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

maths: 60.9*1.5[crit]+(1/16*100)[rough skin]= 97.6

Note: If you want to say "well what if they protect" then you start putting predictions into the mix, and if the opponent can predict and use protect then so can I.

Rough skin deals 1/8 of your HP (12.5%), not 1/16

So your Mega Aero is not guaranteed to survive a crit Stone Edge combined with Rough Skin damage. However, it is likely to even assuming that Stone Edge will always score a crit

Crit Stone Edge deals 77.4 - 91.2%
With Rough Skin, that's 89.9 - 103.7% damage

 

[Anty]

Klefki @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 94 SpD
Calm Nature
- Rain Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Protect
- Foul Play

Ludicolo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

This core can easily win whilst gaining momentum with the rain up for Ludicolo.

Turn 1, ludi fake outs garchomp whilst klefki gets up rain. Charizard cant do too much to ludi
Turn 2, Ludi ohko's garchomp with ice beam, yzard still doesnt do enough damage or attacks klefki. Yzard also gets t waved
Turn 3, yzard gets ohkod

252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 384-456 (107.2 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Ludicolo Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Rain: 300-354 (100.6 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Ludicolo in Rain: 45-54 (13.8 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Ludicolo in Rain: 82-97 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Hydro pump could be used for power vs other pokes, whilst scald wins anyway. Ludicolo looses at max 50% of health (klefki will get 2hko'd by heat wave + over heat if attacked both turns)

e: not gonna lie, thundi is a better setter, i just wanted variety and im trying to fit in a klefki on my rain team. Most rain teams opt for a stronger electric type like thund-t or mega mane.

 

[Darkmalice]

Similar to Anty's. This core was inspired by his. However, Thundurus is a much better fit than Klefki for both setting up Rain and for taking on Zard Y and Chomp as it's not weak to their STABs and can threaten them offensively too

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 SDef / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- HP Ice
- Substitute

Ludicolo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Scald
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

EVs taken from the Doubles analysis to outspeed Scarf Lando-T

Turn 1: Fake Out Garchomp and set up rain with Thundurus. Mega Zard Y cannot OHKO either of the two even with a critical hit Overheat in rain.
Turn 2: OHKO both opponents. Thundurus-I can OHKO both Zard Y and Chomp with Thunder and HP Ice respectively, and Ludicolo can OHKO Zard Y and Chomp too with Scald and Ice Beam respectively.

The other core has literally no way of beating this, even accounting for critical hit, Life Orb recoil, Rough Skin recoil, and accuracy (all of Thundurus' and Ludicolo's moves are 100% accurate). Protect will not stop this.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y critical Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus in Rain: 220-261 (73.5 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO even with 1 turn of LO recoil

An offensive spread on Thundurus-I with LO is used to OHKO Chomp with HP Ice. A more defensive set without Life Orb works too, provided there is at least 192 SpA without a Life Orb to always OHKO Zard Y with Thunder. Without Life Orb, you would be forced to Ice Beam Garchomp and use Thunder on Zard Y to win (still guaranteed win). The advantage to LO HP Ice is that you have plenty of flexibility with how you KO both threats in case you predict a switch - choice of attacks, setting up Sub with Thundurus.