Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[Ares]

The main issue with Simisear is that it doesn't have much of a niche over other Fire-types like Pyroar, Typhlosion, or Magmortar. These are all stronger than Simisear and pack more overall usefulness on a team. Pyroar is faster than Simisear and is a little stronger, and has Hyper Voice for something strong and reliable beyond Fire Blast. Magmortar may be slower, but it's a whole lot stronger and can 2HKO, if not OHKO, almost everything in the tier. It also has a wide offensive movepool so it can nuke everything quite effectively. Typhlosion is a bit stronger and is only slower by one point and is overall more useful. Simisear isn't the worst thing ever but it doesn't really have much of a niche over other Fire-types. C- is where it should stay.

Also, Delphox manages to exercise dominance over RU because it has CM and Switcheroo so it can always prove itself lethal whether with LO+CM or Specs, and is the best Fire-type there, only Moltres comes even close to being as good as it.

I can see Simisear moving up to C/C+ because it does pack quite a punch if you get a nasty plot off, but not into B for exactly the points you brought up.

 

[jake]

Update.

As always, these are not set in stone, so feel free to debate them if you feel I am incorrect in making these changes live. If your suggestion is not included in my changelog I either missed it or do not agree with it, but feel free to bring it up again and I will give you a thorough response - it's just a pain in the ass to discuss each one individually when it's not necessary.

accepted

Combusken from A- to A+
Ferroseed from B to A
Octillery from unlisted to D
Torterra from C- to C+
Ursaring from D to C

still discuss

Slurpuff to S

 

[watashi]

i don't agree with slurpuff being s-rank. due to the nature of unburden, you have to wait until the opponent's slurpuff counter dies before you can accomplish much with it, since if your chances of sweeping are pretty much gone if you're forced out and lose the speed boost. compare this to other sweepers that have much more utility, such as shiftry and feraligatr who can pick off weakened threats with priority or remove items in the former's case while being able to attempt multiple sweeps. as effective of an late-game sweeper slurpuff is, i feel that too often it accomplishes nothing against a competent opponent who has a game plan for it. while there are no pokemon which are guaranteed counters for both sets, it's not hard to fit a two-pokemon core which can beat all slurpuff sets. as for the defensive set, it's cute but nowhere near as good enough to play a factor in whether it should be s-rank or not.

 

[Tribute]

C+ to B

Far more calcs than you want to see / care about

252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Expert Belt Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 240-284 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 304-359 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 227-269 (56.1 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 253-298 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 373-441 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shiftry: 182-216 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Swellow: 182-216 (69.4 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage

252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 170-204 (58.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Auto Defeatist)

252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 170-204 (60.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vivillon: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vileplume: 258-312 (72.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery [Not Reliable for anything since giga drain does 70%, but if it has hazard damage it isn't safe]

-1 252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 174-206 (52 - 61.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Nothing short of banded Sawk or Life orb special sceptile will OHKO it outright. It beats any stealth rocker (Or hazard setter really) that isn't Omastar/Toad. Even Omastar loses if they try to trade rocks instead of attacking off the bat.

Between a strong ice shard and the bulk to take a hit from most mons, it can act as a revenge or emergency check to a long list of mons. Really the only notable things it cant stop are Gatr an already-BD'd Slurpluff (Which interestingly is 50/50 ohko)

Its ice shard is ~on par with Sneasel (Already a B) so any ice shard utility is retained. But it trades a fast knock off for the ability to take hits if needed, set up rocks if needed, and STAB EQ coming off of 100 attack.

It can't do everything(except when it can) but it can always do something, its definitely more than a C+

I don't see this at all for accept/decline/keep going so I'm going to assume everyone just skipped over it and quote myself

 

[Fluze3]

ok we get it. combusken is the dankest around.

moving on...

call me shirley but im going to nominate slurpuff for s rank. it seems to fit the description of an s rank pokemon perfectly. fairy is also a great type in NU right now offensively and defensively. it can perform multiple roles extremely effectively, one of the more common ones being the calm mind set. slurpuff's special movepool is consisting of coverage that is almost impossible to wall without extremely specific sets (defensive assault vest muk lol), with moves ranging from psychic to kill poison types and flamethrower to kill steel types. when taking that movepool and using it in tandem with calm mind and unburden boosts, the opponent can say goodbye to the sanctity of their tender butthole. on the other side of the spectrum, it can violate teams another way, that way being the belly drum set. at the cost of only 25% of its own hp, slurpuff effortlessly boosts its attack by 6 and doubles its speed all in one turn with little to no help from teammates. speaking of teammates, it gets a decent support movepool including the noteable move wish. furthermore, being fairy type, it's able to switch in on basically every fighting type threat from sawk to gurdurr, both of which are big threats currently. all of that being said, slurpuff is a versatile and unpredictable threat that is extremely difficult to counter full-on.

I would agree with this. Also, with access to Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, and a Recovery Move (Status AND Damage) it can be extremely difficult to penetrate. Also, with access to flamethrower, surf, energy ball, etc. It's able to have a decent coverage movepool, especially to get past checks and threats such as Vileplume and Probopass.

Also, Haze / Clear Smog isn't that common because not all teams own one - but if they did, the only good user would be Weezing because of its bulk. But even then, it can't take a +2 Surf that well.

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry / Weakness Policy / Chesto Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Cotton Guard / Rest
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Surf / Flamethrower / Energy Ball / Psychic

The first 3 moves are staple to heal off and boost its defensive to insane levels. The last move depends on coverage, but Surf is better to get past Fire Types such as Typhlosion and Pyroar. It can also perform a Rest Booster, by boosting its SpA and then Resting it all off, having +2 Speed equivalent.

or

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Return
- Facade / Substitute / Aromatherapy

With its rather poor physical coverage movepool, all it can use effectively are Play Rough and Return. Facade can be used to get past burns (if you're THAT paranoid) or Thief can be used to Steal lefties off of a wall or another important item.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Fluze I would put Psychic in that last spot over the above options to take out Poison- types that tend to switch into Slurpuff (Qwilfish especially).

 

[Ares]

Fluze I would put Psychic in that last spot over the above options to take out Poison- types that tend to switch into Slurpuff (Qwilfish especially).

Tbh I wouldnt use physic as my third coverage move on the Belly Drum set. I would either use flamethrower or sub to block status/prevent sucker. Flamethrower hits steel and especially Ferroseed hard even with minimal investment. While Return with support of rocks should be able to take out qwil, +5 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 266-313 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, also if qwil switches in on the Belly Drum Slurpuff will be at +6 and be able to OHKO.

4 SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 172-204 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Steelix: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 130-154 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Now while not a straight up OHKO flamethrower hits harder than return/play rough.

 

[Tribute]

All of those things will just kill you anyway if its a 2hko.

And be 2hkod regardless if they switch in

 

[psVoltage]

Also a Calm Mind 3 attacks set can be a good late game sweeper (basically w/o using rest) I know its probably been posted before but since we are on slurpuff sets I might as well mention it.

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry/ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (make sure that the hp is even when using the sitrus so it activates @ 50%)
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Surf / Psychic/ Flamethrower/ Energy ball
- Surf / Psychic/ Flamethrower/ Energy ball

Basically pick your coverage based on the team that you are using.

 

[Ares]

All of those things will just kill you anyway if its a 2hko.

And be 2hkod regardless if they switch in

The point is that you can start your sweep earlier with the BD Slurpuff set if they have a steel mon on there side (while psychic you can not). The only steel type that really stops flamethrower is probo. So to counter that, and get steel types down to 50% or less, you can run an offensive trapper probopass.

 

[Raseri]

I have a few more changes that I think would be good to see.

Liepard down from A to A-
Liepard is still good in this metagame, with its reallt fast STAB Knock Off, and priority Encore. But there are a lot of common threats that just don't really care about it. Things like Hariyama, Poliwrath, Rhydon, Combusken and basically anything with physical bulk can take it out. Even a lot of the things weak to Knock Off are bulky enough to take a hit. Encore is great for stopping sweepers from setting up, but with Liepard's shit bulk, one mispredict = dead cat. WHen I see a Liepard, just attack on the switch and set up later :)

Mesprit from A- to A
Mesprit is one of the most diverse Pokemon in NU, I've seen it run the following sets that I think are all viable:
Offensive Calm Mind
LO 4 Atk
LO 3 Atk + Healing Wish
AV Tank
Choice Scarf
Choice Specs
Choice Band
Utility SR Setter.

Mesprit can fill so many roles, its one of the hardest Pokemon to figure out in team preview. Beyond that, it is actually really good at almost all of the roles above, with amazing mixed stats that make it both an offensive and defensive threat. It's also cute :) Mesprit for A. Uxie might deserve A as well, but I don't like it as much because its weak as Jonater .

 

[Jonater]

I have a few more changes that I think would be good to see.

Liepard down from A to A-
Liepard is still good in this metagame, with its reallt fast STAB Knock Off, and priority Encore. But there are a lot of common threats that just don't really care about it. Things like Hariyama, Poliwrath, Rhydon, Combusken and basically anything with physical bulk can take it out. Even a lot of the things weak to Knock Off are bulky enough to take a hit. Encore is great for stopping sweepers from setting up, but with Liepard's shit bulk, one mispredict = dead cat. WHen I see a Liepard, just attack on the switch and set up later :)

Mesprit from A- to A
Mesprit is one of the most diverse Pokemon in NU, I've seen it run the following sets that I think are all viable:
Offensive Calm Mind
LO 4 Atk
LO 3 Atk + Healing Wish
AV Tank
Choice Scarf
Choice Specs
Choice Band
Utility SR Setter.

Mesprit can fill so many roles, its one of the hardest Pokemon to figure out in team preview. Beyond that, it is actually really good at almost all of the roles above, with amazing mixed stats that make it both an offensive and defensive threat. It's also cute :) Mesprit for A. Uxie might deserve A as well, but I don't like it as much because its weak as Jonater .

brb running uxie to prove you wrong

 

[Fluze3]

previous post so I don't double post

Also a Calm Mind 3 attacks set can be a good late game sweeper (basically w/o using rest) I know its probably been posted before but since we are on slurpuff sets I might as well mention it.

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry/ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (make sure that the hp is even when using the sitrus so it activates @ 50%)
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Surf / Psychic/ Flamethrower/ Energy ball
- Surf / Psychic/ Flamethrower/ Energy ball

Basically pick your coverage based on the team that you are using.

Rest is only just a suggestion. Cotton Guard is used a lot now, but 3 attacks can be used.

EDIT:

What Raseri said, I agree. Although it has decent niches, it's not physically powerful enough to beat its checks with Play Rough, and that every Fairy resists all of its most common moves.

I do support Mesprit's raise due to its coverage. (nothing like E-vire) It can bluff a choice item with an Expert belt and has decent bulk on all sides of the spectrum (sorry HP but you're Subpar). Although Uxie outclasses it in the CM set, It can run an effective CM set regardless. (Uxie was UU for a reason in Gen V) Plus, It gets Dazzling Gleam for its Dark Type threats.

Still gets outclassed By Uxie bulky offensively, but it has a decent coverage niche and an immunity to Ground. But that knock off weakness...

Malamar for C -> C+/B-

Malamar is a rather odd pokemon. It's got an amazing ability in Contrary, turning Intimidate and Sticky Web users against themselves. It also gets Superpower (which, does more than its STABs) to boost its Atk and Def to insane levels. It also gets something that is EXTREMELY underrated - Topsy-Turvy. This move has saved my ass in games THOUSANDS of times. A slurpuff switches in on you to set up? BOOM. It has -6 Atk. Not too shabby, huh? It can also run Assault Vest to become a complete Tank on the special side, absorbing almost anything that isn't super effective. It's nifty typing allows it to be Immune to psychic and a neutrality to Knock Off. It also has amazing dual STABs that complement each other, having decent coverage with Superpower. It can also play a neat Trick Room Setter and sweeper.

Malamar @ Leftovers / Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef -OR- 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant / Careful / Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe (if BRAVE)
- Superpower
- Night Slash
- Psycho Cut
- Topsy-turvy / Rock Slide / Destiny Bond / Trick Room

This is the rather staple set. Keeping in mind that Rock Slide should be used with the AV set to help with Flying and Fire Types, but it's probably the best coverage move that it's got outside of Return. The other two moves there can be used if you like Recovery to complement its bulk. (although it's not reliable)

 

[g]

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Return
- Thief / Facade

With its rather poor physical coverage movepool, all it can use effectively are Play Rough and Return. Facade can be used to get past burns (if you're THAT paranoid) or Thief can be used to Steal lefties off of a wall or another important item.

Thief removes the unburden boost and should NEVER be considered. Substitute and Aromatherapy are better option for that slot.

 

[Fluze3]

Thief removes the unburden boost and should NEVER be considered. Substitute and Aromatherapy are better option for that slot.

A part of me knew that. But, some people do use it. It's rather stupid anyway. I'll edit the post regardless. Thanks.

 

[This Is Fearsome]

previous post so I don't double post

Rest is only just a suggestion. Cotton Guard is used a lot now, but 3 attacks can be used.

EDIT:

What Raseri said, I agree. Although it has decent niches, it's not physically powerful enough to beat its checks with Play Rough, and that every Fairy resists all of its most common moves.

I do support Mesprit's raise due to its coverage. (nothing like E-vire) It can bluff a choice item with an Expert belt and has decent bulk on all sides of the spectrum (sorry HP but you're Subpar). Although Uxie outclasses it in the CM set, It can run an effective CM set regardless. (Uxie was UU for a reason in Gen V) Plus, It gets Dazzling Gleam for its Dark Type threats.

Still gets outclassed By Uxie bulky offensively, but it has a decent coverage niche and an immunity to Ground. But that knock off weakness...

Malamar for C -> C+/B-

Malamar is a rather odd pokemon. It's got an amazing ability in Contrary, turning Intimidate and Sticky Web users against themselves. It also gets Superpower (which, does more than its STABs) to boost its Atk and Def to insane levels. It also gets something that is EXTREMELY underrated - Topsy-Turvy. This move has saved my ass in games THOUSANDS of times. A slurpuff switches in on you to set up? BOOM. It has -6 Atk. Not too shabby, huh? It can also run Assault Vest to become a complete Tank on the special side, absorbing almost anything that isn't super effective. It's nifty typing allows it to be Immune to psychic and a neutrality to Knock Off. It also has amazing dual STABs that complement each other, having decent coverage with Superpower. It can also play a neat Trick Room Setter and sweeper.

Malamar @ Leftovers / Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef -OR- 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant / Careful / Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe (if BRAVE)
- Superpower
- Night Slash
- Psycho Cut
- Topsy-turvy / Rock Slide / Destiny Bond / Trick Room

This is the rather staple set. Keeping in mind that Rock Slide should be used with the AV set to help with Flying and Fire Types, but it's probably the best coverage move that it's got outside of Return. The other two moves there can be used if you like Recovery to complement its bulk. (although it's not reliable)

I support a move to C+ for Malamar
I ran a scarf set during my early battles in the minitour and have used it a lot high ladder
However, a scarfer Malamar needs a lot of support to rid the field of Ghosts / Poisons / Psychics / bulky Flying mons before sweeping which is a tough job, and it only managed to shine on my team because it was built around it specifically.

Because of the support that all of its sets require (removal of mons for scarf sweeps, and simply more aggressive team mates for other sets as it's slow and doesn't hit that hard even at +1) it should definitely stay in the C rankings, but I think that the fact that it can really build up steam with boosts, become surprisingly bulky with AV and wall priority at +1def all point in favour of a move to C+

 

[horyzhnz]

imo malamar is fine where it's at; psychic isn't really that common in this meta and its lack of resistances and speed means it can't really switch in very well or revenge kill without a scarf. lots of stuff in the higher tiers can take advantage of malamar if it's locked into a move such as dragalge, slurpuff, mesprit, uxie, vileplume, granbull, gurdurr, shiftry; choiced malamar is very easy to play around for most teams and it also can't do shit to spiritomb. too much support required to use malamar efficiently, and not worth the opportunity cost imo, not by a long shot when there are so many things that can fill its role better. scarf + topsy turvy is really the only reason i've ever used this thing, shuts down stuff like bd slurpuff, sd shiftry, feraligatr, samurott, and bulk up gurdurr, then it can cripple something with switcheroo later.

 

[RockRocks]

I think Grumpig should be moved from
C- to C+/B-

Grumpig is a very under-appreciated mon in my opinion. It has a great ability in Thick Fat that makes it a great switch-in to offensive Fire-types like Magmortar, and its great Special Defense along with good HP allow it to check almost every special attacker in the tier. On top of that, it has amazing utility in Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, and Whirlwind. In fact, it is also one of the best checks to Combusken, as it resists both STABs, hits it super effectively with STAB Psychic, and can phaze it out with Whirlwind.

Of course, it has subpar physical bulk and is weak to Knock Off, U-Turn, and Pursuit. It also doesn't get access to reliable recovery. However, it's usually enough to take multiple special hits and retailiate accordingly. Overall, though, it's a very good special wall that's up there with the best of them. It should at least be moved up to C+.

 

[Evan.]

I would like to propose the change of Ninetales from C -> B/B-

Ninetales is a fairly useful poke in this meta as it sits in a pretty good speed tier and it's great coverage allows it to take on nearly every common defensive core that is found in NU as of now. With the combination of Energy Ball/Fire Blast/Psyshock it can dismantle FerroToad, VileToad, FerroLage, and YamaPlume on it's own. Ninetales can even take on CM Puff on it's own as long as it doesn't run Psychic (which most don't because of Ferroseed) through a combination of Nasty Plot + Psyshock. The reason that Ninetales is not higher than B/B- is that it lacks immediate power without a Nasty Plot boost, but I feel like the combination of it's good attributes makes it deserve a buff in viability.

 

[Shuckleking87]

I would like to propose the change of Ninetales from C -> B/B-

Ninetales is a fairly useful poke in this meta as it sits in a pretty good speed tier and it's great coverage allows it to take on nearly every common defensive core that is found in NU as of now. With the combination of Energy Ball/Fire Blast/Psyshock it can dismantle FerroToad, VileToad, FerroLage, and YamaPlume on it's own. Ninetales can even take on CM Puff on it's own as long as it doesn't run Psychic (which most don't because of Ferroseed) through a combination of Nasty Plot + Psyshock. The reason that Ninetales is not higher than B/B- is that it lacks immediate power without a Nasty Plot boost, but I feel like the combination of it's good attributes makes it deserve a buff in viability.

Pyroar can also handle all those combos besides av hariyama, and even then, ninetales needs +2 boost to have a chance to assault vest hariyama with no hp or defense investment (I've seen 252 Atk /128 D/128 SpD as hariyama spread, and ninetales cannot ohko with psyshock after rocks), with yama ohko with close combat after rocks. And my cm slurpuff runs surf so it isn't a guarentee win for ninetales vs cm slurpuff. Fire blast also brings slurpuff into sitrus berry range and can belly drum as well so ninetales isnt a great answer to slurpuff imo. Also
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion (or Pyroar) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ninetales only hits 10% harder after a nasty plot boost than specs pyroar or typhlosion, and they also have greater speed and are obviously alot stronger if ninetales has no np boost. Best set is probably a calm mind set but I think C is the right range for ninetales.

 

[Evan.]

Pyroar can also handle all those combos besides av hariyama, and even then, ninetales needs +2 boost to have a chance to assault vest hariyama with no hp or defense investment (I've seen 252 Atk /128 D/128 SpD as hariyama spread, and ninetales cannot ohko with psyshock after rocks), with yama ohko with close combat after rocks. And my cm slurpuff runs surf so it isn't a guarentee win for ninetales vs cm slurpuff. Fire blast also brings slurpuff into sitrus berry range and can belly drum as well so ninetales isnt a great answer to slurpuff imo. Also
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion (or Pyroar) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ninetales only hits 10% harder after a nasty plot boost than specs pyroar or typhlosion, and they also have greater speed and are obviously alot stronger if ninetales has no np boost. Best set is probably a calm mind set but I think C is the right range for ninetales.

I see where you're coming from with the whole pyroar argument, however I feel that Ninetales and Pyroar have 2 different niches. Pyroar is more used as a standard Wallbreaker while Ninetales is used as a set-up sweeper that can break through some of the common defensive cores in NU.

First of all, i'm going off of the standard 252 SpDef AV Hariyama until the 128/128 one becomes more popular, so that means that Ninetales does in fact beat standard AV Yama at +2. While Ninetales does not beat CM Puff with surf, no offense I can't see why anyone would run surf on CM puff as they would be walled hard by 2 of the most common defensive pokemon in the tier in Ferroseed and Vileplume. When you say that Slurpuff can belly drum as well, I never said anything about Ninetales beating BD Puff so I don't really see where you were going with that. When I look at your calcs, I see that both of those calcs are based on choice specs'd pokemon. The beauty of +2 Ninetales is that it has the freedom to switch up moves and beat defensive cores with ease and little prediction. I'm not saying that Ninetales is now a meta-defining pokemon, all i'm trying to say is that it fulfills a usefull niche as a set-up sweeper and deserves a higher rank then C, probably around B/B-.

 

[Shuckleking87]

I see where you're coming from with the whole pyroar argument, however I feel that Ninetales and Pyroar have 2 different niches. Pyroar is more used as a standard Wallbreaker while Ninetales is used as a set-up sweeper that can break through some of the common defensive cores in NU.

First of all, i'm going off of the standard 252 SpDef AV Hariyama until the 128/128 one becomes more popular, so that means that Ninetales does in fact beat standard AV Yama at +2. While Ninetales does not beat CM Puff with surf, no offense I can't see why anyone would run surf on CM puff as they would be walled hard by 2 of the most common defensive pokemon in the tier in Ferroseed and Vileplume. When you say that Slurpuff can belly drum as well, I never said anything about Ninetales beating BD Puff so I don't really see where you were going with that. When I look at your calcs, I see that both of those calcs are based on choice specs'd pokemon. The beauty of +2 Ninetales is that it has the freedom to switch up moves and beat defensive cores with ease and little prediction. I'm not saying that Ninetales is now a meta-defining pokemon, all i'm trying to say is that it fulfills a usefull niche as a set-up sweeper and deserves a higher rank then C, probably around B/B-.

But nasty plot ninetales isnt particularly strong, especially coming off base 81 SpA. And yes, nasty plot ninetales can switch up moves, but that fact that a poke tat does not require a turn setting up only does 10% damage less than a poke that needs to set up to really deal damage is saying something to both the strength of the 2 fire pokes and not so great ninetales. And most of the time you will spam fire blast anyways.
Also, just because 252 spdef is standard doesnt mean you can disregard a somewhat popular spread ( I guess you can risk it if you want, i wouldnt). And I run flamethrower/surf/cm/draining kiss or dazzling gleam but thats besides the point. Ninetales also has to take a hit setting up to +2, and it really cannot take many physical hits at all, considering its ok but not that good hp and def stats. Calm mind really is the better boosting move for it as it can take advantage of good special defense and speed. Otherwise do not really see a reason using it over pyroar or typhlosion (heck probably would use nasty plot simisear >np ninetales)

 

[Evan.]

Ok so lets look over the definition of a B Rank pokemon and see how it applies to Ninetales

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

I believe that Ninetales does have its own offensive niche as a set-up sweeper that can break through common defensive cores in the meta with it's good set-up moves, variety of coverage moves and half decent special bulk. Ninetales also fits the description of a pokemon who is partially outperformed by a pokemon in A or S Rank (Pyroar), yet can still be a dangerous pokemon if not handled carefully. I believe that Ninetales fits this description more accurately than it does the description for C Rank which is:

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

I don't think that Ninetales' base 81 SpAtk is a crippling flaw nor that it is completely outclassed by a pokemon in the above ranks, as it does fill a different niche than Pyroar does. Once again I'll reiterate, Ninetales does fulfill a given offensive niche and should be changed to B- Rank in my opinion.

 

[Quite Quiet]

The reliance on set up, the flat 100 speed and being almost entirely outclassed by Tyhlosion except in special bulk (which gets similar coverage but same base speed, higher spA and equal physical bulk) sure does little for its viability. It might have small things over Typhlosion (energy ball vs hp grass, psyshock vs extrasensory) but those are by far not enough to make up for the reliance on set up while still having all the problems Typhlosion have. It does have more set up options, but those are required to even make Ninetales useful, not boost already good offenses.

Keep it in C, it fits.

 

[Latios6]

Linoone -C -> A rank
Linoone has a high speed stat for the tier at 100 and a sub par attack stat of 70. However if you open with it and use belly drum + extremespeed it will sweep teams. Out of the 40 games I played with it opening I lost 3 and went 6-0 34 times along with 5-0 or 4-0 the rest. the only effective counters to this set are to kill it turn one or have a focus sash pokemon that can kill it in one hit.
With this set it covers the pokemon such as regirock and ghosts that would otherwise wall it since it is faster than anything that can live a hit from extremespeed.
Linoone @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Seed Bomb