np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[s_aman]

The first part--I'll disagree with you there. There are other viable defoggers for stall, Skarm just gets used the most because people are obsessed with the SkarmChans core.

The second part--you're more or less right here. However, that's assuming the stall player doesn't make good switches too. If the stall player can maintain the momentum, it doesn't really matter what the teammates are. That pretty much goes for any threat against any team, too. If you REALLY want to build a team around a specific threat, then you can overload its counters. Let's not forget that Amoongus also carries Spore--effectively neutering one of your team members. True--Aegislash does shit on the Skarm/Chans/Venu/Tran/Quag/filler stall teams, but what the hell doesn't these days? Good stall teams are a lot more innovative than the 2 most common defensive cores plus an Unaware user.

Not bandwagoning, but Skarm is the best viable defogger on stall teams.
On the second part, as far as i know, stall teams can't afford to make risky plays often. And, by risky plays, i mean prediction. They can't risk double switching for regaining momentum.

 

[Halcyon.]

Oh no, Stall is in danger because of this 'mon.

C'mon guys, when did we start caring about a dying playstyle? The only time this argument came up was the last suspect test, however, BP chains simply just dealt with EVERY playstyle if given the chance. I feel like people are starting to fish for reasons now. Aegislash stops your full stall team? Then switch one of your 'mons with something to deal with it. Oh, it's not "Full stall"? Well too bad, that's the way adaptation works, it's not a 'mon that threatens EVERYTHING like mLuc, mKanga, and BP chains. It is a threat, don't get me wrong, but just because it is a threat doesn't mean it is broken.

Maybe, I'm on the side I am because I don't have a problem with it, nor do I use it, yes, it is an annoying 'mon to be face to face with, but as soon as you see what set it is, you should be able to work around it. It's not like he only has 2 things able to stop him, there are several 'mons that come in, take X attack and scare it out or take it out.

This is a terrible argument and should be avoided if you ever want to convince people to keep Aegi. We have always tried to protect stall because we're trying to achieve a balanced metagame, and part of that means that each of the three major playstyles (offense, balanced, and stall) should be as equally viable as possible. When you say things like stall is a "dying playstyle" that isn't worth saving, it come rely invalidates your opinion because it just shows that you're not seeking a truly balanced meta.

But it's not even like the pressure it puts on stall is the major reason it should be banned. How about the pressure it puts on the entire tier? It warps the metagame like no other Pokemon and I really think people are blinded by this fact simply because they're so used to it. And THAT is a problem.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

This is a terrible argument and should be avoided if you ever want to convince people to keep Aegi. We have always tried to protect stall because we're trying to achieve a balanced metagame, and part of that means that each of the three major playstyles (offense, balanced, and stall) should be as equally viable as possible. When you say things like stall is a "dying playstyle" that isn't worth saving, it come rely invalidates your opinion because it just shows that you're not seeking a truly balanced meta.

But it's not even like the pressure it puts on stall is the major reason it should be banned. How about the pressure it puts on the entire tier? It warps the metagame like no other Pokemon and I really think people are blinded by this fact simply because they're so used to it. And THAT is a problem.

As an avid stall player, I'd prefer it if stall was better fit. However, the meta has become such an offensively driven environment, it'd take a lot of things going before it were as balanced as one would wish for. As I stated, I'm not "pro-ban", neither am I "anti-ban", I just think some of these are weak reasons behind why aegi should get the boot. Aegi is not the reason Stall is not as viable as it could be, it's a long list of Pokemon.

I just think if we're going to try and save a playstyle we should be able to say the same for Pokemon. But, as we've seen numerous times, that's not what this is about. I think, I like everyone here wants a balanced metagame, but, it won't be, it never will be, there will always be something that is less (or in some cases more) threatening than the 'mon that was suspected before.

Stall just isn't as viable anymore, there are more heavily offensive Pokemon now. That's just the way it is. And I'm sorry, banning Aegi won't stop that.

EDIT: Add "Full Stall" everywhere I mentioned stall.
Also, I understand it's not the major reason it is being suspected, I'm simply here to say some of these arguments aren't convincing me it should go.

 

[Sun King]

Not bandwagoning, but Skarm is the best viable defogger on stall teams.
On the second part, as far as i know, stall teams can't afford to make risky plays often. And, by risky plays, i mean prediction. They can't risk double switching for regaining momentum.

Skarm is a very good defogger--I'm not saying he's not. However, there are plenty of others. Mega Scizor is great because he helps you counter Mega Gardevoir and Kyurem-Black AND he defogs--being completely reliant on Counter isn't something that is attractive to me on my teams, and I often find that Skarmory is useless outside of defogging and countering Mega Pinsir. I rarely have to use it on my teams. Zapdos is nothing to scoff at, as you can choose its EV spread to counter what you need it to. Mandibuzz is actually pretty cool because you get a Foul Play user and a Knock Off user.

As for prediction--I would only partially agree. Yes, the risk/reward factor for making predictions on stall is skewed more towards risk. The problem with not making any predictions is that you'll fall right into what Jukain was saying--things will simply overwhelm you. The metagame is simply too powerful for stall to be completely reactive; you need to take the initiative, or else you will find yourself slowly getting worn down.

 

[Srn]

As an avid stall player, I'd prefer it if stall was better fit. However, the meta has become such an offensively driven environment, it'd take a lot of things going before it were as balanced as one would wish for. As I stated, I'm not "pro-ban", neither am I "anti-ban", I just think some of these are weak reasons behind why aegi should get the boot. Aegi is not the reason Stall is not as viable as it could be, it's a long list of Pokemon.

I just think if we're going to try and save a playstyle we should be able to say the same for Pokemon. But, as we've seen numerous times, that's not what this is about. I think, I like everyone here wants a balanced metagame, but, it won't be, it never will be, there will always be something that is less (or in some cases more) threatening than the 'mon that was suspected before.

Stall just isn't as viable anymore, there are more heavily offensive Pokemon now. That's just the way it is. And I'm sorry, banning Aegi won't stop that.

EDIT: Add "Full Stall" everywhere I mentioned stall.
Also, I understand it's not the major reason it is being suspected, I'm simply here to say some of these arguments aren't convincing me it should go.

ok ok ok

everyone here wants a balanced metagame, but, it won't be, it never will be, there will always be something that is less (or in some cases more) threatening than the 'mon that was suspected before.

So we just give up at trying to achieve a balanced metagame because we understand that we will never truly achieve one. Sounds good to me man, fuck it lets just deal with blatantly broken mons like mega mawile and let them run rampant because who cares in the end the metagame is never gonna be decent anyways.

And for the record, stall is still pretty goddamn viable. Just because we don't see it on the ladder too often (ofc you wouldn't, offense is the quickest way to ladder) that doesn't mean stall sux. The real place you should be looking is threads of replays of tours. Stall is extremely common there because it is consistent, and consistency is king when it comes to tour play because we've all lost to hax and we ALL know how SHITTY that feels.
(ofc i prefer to watch offense b/c its much more entertaining than watching stall but w/e that's not relevant)

 

[haunter]

Voting thread is up.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

ok ok ok


So we just give up at trying to achieve a balanced metagame because we understand that we will never truly achieve one. Sounds good to me man, fuck it lets just deal with blatantly broken mons like mega mawile and let them run rampant because who cares in the end the metagame is never gonna be decent anyways.

And for the record, stall is still pretty goddamn viable. Just because we don't see it on the ladder too often (ofc you wouldn't, offense is the quickest way to ladder) that doesn't mean stall sux. The real place you should be looking is threads of replays of tours. Stall is extremely common there because it is consistent, and consistency is king when it comes to tour play because we've all lost to hax and we ALL know how SHITTY that feels.
(ofc i prefer to watch offense b/c its much more entertaining than watching stall but w/e that's not relevant)

I never said Stall sucked. It just isn't as viable as it was before because of the plethora of offensive threats in the past two generations. I know stall is seen more so in tourney play, for the reasons you stated.

Also, if these things were "blatantly broken" they would have been quick banned a long time ago. The thing that becomes a problem is, these things are checkable and counter-able, mawile included, it's just that it makes you have to carry something you don't want to, no where near that of the previous bans might I add. That's what powerful Pokemon do. I'd understand if it had two, and only one or two counters (mKanga) but these things have more than a few counters, a lot of them, top level threats you can fit onto many teams. My point is, after aegi goes, Mawile, zardX, lando, Pinsir, TFlame, all these mons become problems. Meaning, it's a never ending plethora of suspect tests because there will always be things that are threatening another.

 

[Red Cat]

Who talked about a SpD set on Zapdos? Its best set is physically defensive, which can also check Aegislash as it avoids the 2HKO from Shadow Ball after Lefties and can threaten Aegislash with Heat Wave. Yeah, it's not a very good check, but it can scout for Aegi's moveslot and tangle with it a bit.

Have you ever used Mandibuzz? Because, from what you say, you fail to recognize Mandibuzz's biggest assets, which are lack of Fire weakness and thus the ability to deal with one of the most important threats in OU, Mega Charizard X, great special bulk (hi Landorus, Mega Venusaur, Latios, Latias, etc), and Foul Play, which allows it to deal damage back without having to depend on the unreliable Counter. And i never talked about Mandibuzz being used on stall, i was just talking about Mandibuzz as a Pokemon in general.

And Gliscor is not that useful outside of countering Aegislash and Landorus? What about Gengar then, one of the most popular and annoying stallbreakers to stall? Or what about AV Torn-T, also a very annoying Pokemon for stall teams to face, due to the combination of Knock Off, U-turn, and the ability to threaten most MEvos with either Hurricane or Heat Wave? So yes, outside of dealing with Landorus and Gengar, two of stall's biggest problems, and Torn-T, a very real threat to stall, Gliscor is useless. And Quagsire, outside of dealing with Mega Charizard X, Bisharp, and BD Azumarill is mostly useless. But things don't work like that. SpD Gliscor can take on some of the biggest threats to stall, and this is what makes it a great set. Yeah Aegislash is one of them, but far from the only one. Landorus getting suspected is not relevant to the discussion we are having right now, because it's just an assumption. So, let's not base our discussion around assumptions and try to base them on facts. Gliscor does a ton of things for stall teams, and would be used even without Aegislash in the metagame. Instead of picking very viable sets and try to prove they are only used to deal with Aegislash (SpD Gliscor and Mandibuzz), which is a futile endeavor (every good players knows this is not the case) and a shitty argument, try to focus on other arguments with more substance to convince others that Aegislash is broken, such as a negative effect in the metagame or individual brokeness.

You are accusing us of doing everything to make Aegislash seem not broken, but how can you say this when you just called Mandibuzz and SpD Gliscor situational Pokemon that are mostly used because of Aegislash (especially when Mandibuzz loses to 3/4 of Aegi's sets, lol)? This is desperate, simply put.

Ok, I said I didn't want to post anymore here, but I just have to fact-check this post.

Let's start with Zapdos: 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 174-205 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So Zapdos will take a good 70% or more on the switch in after SR (and it usually will be switching in with SR up since it is your Defogger and is weak to most common hazard setters). So your opponent just switches to a Zapdos counter while you Roost and you are down to about 80% health while accomplishing nothing. After 2-3 rounds of this, Zapdos will be dead.

Moving on to Mandibuzz: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 201-237 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 156-184 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think I'll stick to Quagsire for dealing with Zard-X. Mandibuzz can't do much to Mega Venusaur and hates getting poisoned by Sludge Bomb. LO Latios has a good chance of 2HKOing SpD Mandibuzz with Draco Meteor after SR. Mandibuzz has to go max special defense to avoid the 2HKO from Lando's Focus Blast after SR, and even then, it still has a chance of being 2HKOed. Foul Play from Mandibuzz can only 2HKO Landorus-I in return, so you'd better hope for some Focus Blast misses if that's your Landorus check. So it doesn't really counter many relevant Pokemon which Skarmory doesn't. Several other people have said here that Skarmory is a better hazard remover in general for good reason.

As for SpD Glisor vs. Torn-T: 252 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Gliscor: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Ok, so it can stall Torn-T out, but Torn-T will just U-turn out while you Roost and you have just lost a lot of momentum. And if Torn-T has a Life Orb, then SpD Gliscor is 2HKOed. Also, if Toxic Orb has not activated yet, then Torn-T can cripple Gliscor by using Knock Off. So Gliscor is a very shaky answer to Tornadus-T. SpD Gliscor does not counter Latios as LO Draco Meteor can still 2HKO and Surf demolishes Gliscor. To beat Gengar, SpD Gliscor has to find room for Knock Off, and giving up either Toxic or EQ leaves Gliscor vulnerable to other threats. Also, WoW cripples before Toxic Orb activates. Let's remember that Gliscor has 75 / 75 defenses on the special side which is worse than Thundurus. Last gen, people would have laughed at you for investing in Gliscor's pitiful special defense, but this generation it is considered a great set because Aegislash is basically the meta at the moment.

I'm not the one who is desperate. I'm not trying to oversell Aegislash's counters as being good in OU by lying about what they can counter. Right now Gliscor is A rank because it can stop Aegislash just like Mega Venusaur was S rank when Genesect and Mega Lucario were roaming around. The presence of broken threats in OU causes their counters to be considered more viable than they actually are. Like Genesect, Aegislash is a crutch to lean on to check a ton of threats and substitute for good teambuilding. Understandably, there are a lot of people who don't want to lose this crutch because teambuilding becomes much more difficult without it, so they try to put a square peg in a round hole by hyping up Aegislash's checks and counters and making it look easy to stop. Ultimately, though, the opportunity cost for running a counter to Aegislash is much higher than the opportunity cost of running Aegislash, and that makes it broken just like every other Uber.

 

[Sun King]

Ok, I said I didn't want to post anymore here, but I just have to fact-check this post.



I'm not the one who is desperate. I'm not trying to oversell Aegislash's counters as being good in OU by lying about what they can counter. Right now Gliscor is A rank because it can stop Aegislash just like Mega Venusaur was S rank when Genesect and Mega Lucario were roaming around. The presence of broken threats in OU causes their counters to be considered more viable than they actually are. Like Genesect, Aegislash is a crutch to lean on to check a ton of threats and substitute for good teambuilding. Understandably, there are a lot of people who don't want to lose this crutch because teambuilding becomes much more difficult without it, so they try to put a square peg in a round hole by hyping up Aegislash's checks and counters and making it look easy to stop. Ultimately, though, the opportunity cost for running a counter to Aegislash is much higher than the opportunity cost of running Aegislash, and that makes it broken just like every other Uber.

How many times do I have to say that defensive teams can so easily justify running Amoongus or Chesnaught? The only time the opportunity cost is arguably higher is for offensive teams. I know a lot of balanced teams run Mandibuzz, so they really only have to worry about SubToxic or Head Smash when team building. If we're striving to make the metagame balanced, we can't only take offensive concerns into account; we need to address the defensive and balanced players as well. If the premise you're arguing is "Aegislash is unhealthy for the metagame" I would disagree. It is true that Aegislash is a problem for offensive teams, but by and large, defensive and balanced teams can handle him just fine. By that logic, we should call a suspect test for Landorus because he so severely centralizes the defensive metagame. If your team can't handle Landorus, then you get 6-0'd by him. I would argue that is equally as disruptive to the defensive metagame (if not more) as Aegislash is to the offensive. However, we aren't calling a suspect (and I have heard no indication that there will be) for Landorus, so it seems unfairly biased towards offensive players to ban Aegislash based on that argument.

 

[alexwolf]

Ok, I said I didn't want to post anymore here, but I just have to fact-check this post.

Let's start with Zapdos: 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 174-205 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So Zapdos will take a good 70% or more on the switch in after SR (and it usually will be switching in with SR up since it is your Defogger and is weak to most common hazard setters). So your opponent just switches to a Zapdos counter while you Roost and you are down to about 80% health while accomplishing nothing. After 2-3 rounds of this, Zapdos will be dead.

Moving on to Mandibuzz: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 201-237 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 156-184 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think I'll stick to Quagsire for dealing with Zard-X. Mandibuzz can't do much to Mega Venusaur and hates getting poisoned by Sludge Bomb. LO Latios has a good chance of 2HKOing SpD Mandibuzz with Draco Meteor after SR. Mandibuzz has to go max special defense to avoid the 2HKO from Lando's Focus Blast after SR, and even then, it still has a chance of being 2HKOed. Foul Play from Mandibuzz can only 2HKO Landorus-I in return, so you'd better hope for some Focus Blast misses if that's your Landorus check. So it doesn't really counter many relevant Pokemon which Skarmory doesn't. Several other people have said here that Skarmory is a better hazard remover in general for good reason.

As for SpD Glisor vs. Torn-T: 252 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Gliscor: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Ok, so it can stall Torn-T out, but Torn-T will just U-turn out while you Roost and you have just lost a lot of momentum. And if Torn-T has a Life Orb, then SpD Gliscor is 2HKOed. Also, if Toxic Orb has not activated yet, then Torn-T can cripple Gliscor by using Knock Off. So Gliscor is a very shaky answer to Tornadus-T. SpD Gliscor does not counter Latios as LO Draco Meteor can still 2HKO and Surf demolishes Gliscor. To beat Gengar, SpD Gliscor has to find room for Knock Off, and giving up either Toxic or EQ leaves Gliscor vulnerable to other threats. Also, WoW cripples before Toxic Orb activates. Let's remember that Gliscor has 75 / 75 defenses on the special side which is worse than Thundurus. Last gen, people would have laughed at you for investing in Gliscor's pitiful special defense, but this generation it is considered a great set because Aegislash is basically the meta at the moment.

I'm not the one who is desperate. I'm not trying to oversell Aegislash's counters as being good in OU by lying about what they can counter. Right now Gliscor is A rank because it can stop Aegislash just like Mega Venusaur was S rank when Genesect and Mega Lucario were roaming around. The presence of broken threats in OU causes their counters to be considered more viable than they actually are. Like Genesect, Aegislash is a crutch to lean on to check a ton of threats and substitute for good teambuilding. Understandably, there are a lot of people who don't want to lose this crutch because teambuilding becomes much more difficult without it, so they try to put a square peg in a round hole by hyping up Aegislash's checks and counters and making it look easy to stop. Ultimately, though, the opportunity cost for running a counter to Aegislash is much higher than the opportunity cost of running Aegislash, and that makes it broken just like every other Uber.

Zapdos is a situational check to Aegislash anyway, and should never be your first answer to it. I was only addressing your claim that Zapdos is a shitty Pokemon in OU used to check Aegislash, which is not true for two reasons i explained: 1. Zapdos is a good Pokemon in OU and 2. Zapdos is not even a good answer to Aegislash in general. You can assume SR to be up if you want, and i can assume double Defog users to help keep SR off the field against the majority of SR users (which is not unheard off in stall), but the truth is that it's completely irrelevant to the main discussion.

When using Mandibuzz, SR will often be off the field because she is a great Defog user. If you see that Mega Char X is a big threat to your team that you need Mandibuzz to handle, then make sure to put the necessary attention to keep SR off the field. Mandibuzz is a decent check to offensive Char X because she can take a hit even at +1 and OHKO back after Flare Blitz recoil (or get 2HKOed by Dragon Claw and leave Mega Char X with ~15-20% life, easy pickings for any priority user, or multiple hits from +0 Char X, assuming no SR up). And why do you bring up Quagsire? I thought we established that Mandibuzz is not a good or standard option on stall teams, but on balanced and bulky offense teams. As for Mandi vs Lando, stop assuming SR will be up, Mandibuzz is a great Defog user. I mean really, have you ever seen it used by a good player? Because from your comments you seem pretty ignorant about how Mandibuzz works. 108 EVs on SpD is all that Mandibuzz needs to avoid the 2HKO from Landorus's Focus Blast, and then you can spam Roost to PP stall the move or just wait for it to miss.

About Torn-T vs SpD Gliscor. I was talking about AV Torn-T, which only uses 160 SpA EVs:

• 160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Gliscor: 138-163 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

All your other points against SpD Gliscor are laughable. EQ / Knock Off / Taunt / Roost is Gliscor's best set, and there are very few Pokemon able to shut this set down, so forfeiting Toxic is not a problem at all. U-turn Torn-T can gain momentum with U-turn against a defensive threat? Really? What is this supposed to mean? Gliscor is left there unharmed, possibly ready to fire off a Knock Off because Hurricane missed (70% accuracy for you), and the stall player can just go to its next Pokemon to wall the incoming threat. That's how stall works, it's not a problem of Gliscor. The ''you have to get in to activate the Toxic Orb'' argument is also very weak, because if you have seen any good players using a stall team with Gliscor, in practice it's extremely easy to do, especially when you have already identified a dangerous threat on the opposing team, for which you need Gliscor's Orb activated.

So, you are still trying to make SpD Gliscor to be a shitty or situational set with bad or irrelevant arguments, and you still claim to not be desperate? Ok.

 

[Red Cat]

Zapdos is a situational check to Aegislash anyway, and should never be your first answer to it. I was only addressing your claim that Zapdos is a shitty Pokemon in OU used to check Aegislash, which is not true for two reasons i explained: 1. Zapdos is a good Pokemon in OU and 2. Zapdos is not even a good answer to Aegislash in general. You can assume SR to be up if you want, and i can assume double Defog users to help keep SR off the field against the majority of SR users (which is not unheard off in stall), but the truth is that it's completely irrelevant to the main discussion.

When using Mandibuzz, SR will often be off the field because she is a great Defog user. If you see that Mega Char X is a big threat to your team that you need Mandibuzz to handle, then make sure to put the necessary attention to keep SR off the field. Mandibuzz is a decent check to offensive Char X because she can take a hit even at +1 and OHKO back after Flare Blitz recoil (or get 2HKOed by Dragon Claw and leave Mega Char X with ~15-20% life, easy pickings for any priority user, or multiple hits from +0 Char X, assuming no SR up). And why do you bring up Quagsire? I thought we established that Mandibuzz is not a good or standard option on stall teams, but on balanced and bulky offense teams. As for Mandi vs Lando, stop assuming SR will be up, Mandibuzz is a great Defog user. I mean really, have you ever seen it used by a good player? Because from your comments you seem pretty ignorant about how Mandibuzz works. 108 EVs on SpD is all that Mandibuzz needs to avoid the 2HKO from Landorus's Focus Blast, and then you can spam Roost to PP stall the move or just wait for it to miss.

About Torn-T vs SpD Gliscor. I was talking about AV Torn-T, which only uses 160 SpA EVs:

• 160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Gliscor: 138-163 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

All your other points against SpD Gliscor are laughable. EQ / Knock Off / Taunt / Roost is Gliscor's best set, and there are very few Pokemon able to shut this set down, so forfeiting Toxic is not a problem at all. U-turn Torn-T can gain momentum with U-turn against a defensive threat? Really? What is this supposed to mean? Gliscor is left there unharmed, possibly ready to fire off a Knock Off because Hurricane missed (70% accuracy for you), and the stall player can just go to its next Pokemon to wall the incoming threat. That's how stall works, it's not a problem of Gliscor. The ''you have to get in to activate the Toxic Orb'' argument is also very weak, because if you have seen any good players using a stall team with Gliscor, in practice it's extremely easy to do, especially when you have already identified a dangerous threat on the opposing team, for which you need Gliscor's Orb activated.

So, you are still trying to make SpD Gliscor to be a shitty or situational set with bad or irrelevant arguments, and you still claim to not be desperate? Ok.

Mandibuzz will usually come in with SR off the field? She is the hazard remover which means she has to come in with SR on the field by definition. There is no one else on the team to clear the hazards for her. That means she has to be able to come in with hazards up, be able to take a hit, and clear them. This is competitive battling 101.

Oh yay! SpD Gliscor can counter a watered down AV Tornadus-T set which means I still have to run a completely different counter for LO Torn-T! EQ + Knock Off is walled by um... most megas: Mega Zard-Y, Mega Venusaur, Mega Gyarados, Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, Mega Aerodactyl. Also, not every Pokemon is truly devastated by losing its item and can still wall Gliscor.

Also, since you have established that Mandibuzz is bad on stall and Zapdos is a bad answer to Aegi, every stall team has to run SpD Gliscor now to stop Aegislash? Isn't that unhealthy for the meta?

I can see why ginjaninja lashed out at you so badly. You seem to have a habit of typing stuff on your keyboard without checking to see if it is true or relevant.

Edit: I could respond to the posts below, but I'm going to give CBB's post the respect it deserves because that's better than anything I or the anti-ban side has writen so far.

 

[Baharoth]

Also, since you have established that Mandibuzz is bad on stall and Zapdos is a bad answer to Aegi, every stall team has to run SpD Gliscor now to stop Aegislash? Isn't that unhealthy for the meta?

or SpD Amoonguss, Bulky SD Scizor, mixed Hippowdon, SpD Heatran, Mega Venu with HP Fire, CCB Nite or wow Zard. But let me guess all these things are complete trash and exist solely because of Aegi right?

And regarding Mandibuzz, yes he suffers alot from SR thats nothing new but he walls half the tier without rocks on the field so there is still plenty he can do exept walling Aegi. He isnt even forced to use Defog himself, its perfectly possible to use him as a wall on a balanced team while one of the latis or so does the defog.

 

[alexwolf]

Mandibuzz will usually come in with SR off the field? She is the hazard remover which means she has to come in with SR on the field by definition. There is no one else on the team to clear the hazards for her. That means she has to be able to come in with hazards up, be able to take a hit, and clear them. This is competitive battling 101.

Oh yay! SpD Gliscor can counter a watered down AV Tornadus-T set which means I still have to run a completely different counter for LO Torn-T! EQ + Knock Off is walled by um... most megas: Mega Zard-Y, Mega Venusaur, Mega Gyarados, Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, Mega Aerodactyl. Also, not every Pokemon is truly devastated by losing its item and can still wall Gliscor.

Also, since you have established that Mandibuzz is bad on stall and Zapdos is a bad answer to Aegi, every stall team has to run SpD Gliscor now to stop Aegislash? Isn't that unhealthy for the meta?

I can see why ginjaninja lashed out at you so badly. You seem to have a habit of typing stuff on your keyboard without checking to see if it is true or relevant.

Mandibuzz comes in as SR user sets up SR, Mandibuzz uses Defog as SR user switches out, problem solved, SR is off the field.

Watered down AV Tornadus? That's the best Tornadus-T set.

Finally, i could mention the ways that stall has to deal with Aegislash, but it's pretty clear that there is no point in discussing anymore with you.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

So, hearing how close the Aegislash vote is and seeing how many people are still against banning it I'd figure I'd make a last stand for the pro-ban side and see if I can sway any more opinions.

Aegislash is, in my opinion, broken. It has unmatched versatility, a stat spread pretty much unheard of, can do pretty much whatever it wants to do and has all the right moves to do so. On top of that there's King's Shield which is probably one of the main things that generated so much "hate" towards Aegislash. But this isn't about hate or any vendetta or "Aegislash is so annoying ban plz" from the pro-ban side (at least not from the people I talked to); this is our attempt at making the metagame better and more enjoyable and getting something broken out of the tier.

On top of being blessed with incredible stats, incredible typing (you can say all you want about how it has 4 big weaknesses, it has way more resistances not to mention three immunities to make up for that and the raw stats to pretty much shrug off every neutral attack) and all the right tools it needs to do its job, Aegislash hinders the development of the metagame. It sounds like an extremely good Pokemon and, even when you take its versatility into account, it isn't necessarily broken. However, what pushes Aegislash over the edge for the edge for me is how it prevents the metagame from developing. And I'm not talking about any of those other arguments about people wanting to use Reuniclus or Hawlucha and Aegislash making them worse, I'm talking about development in a broader sense, one that defines the whole future of XY OU. I'm talking about Aegislash taking the metagame into its grasp by being the most controlling, most pivotal and one of the most powerful and versatile threats in the metagame and thus hindering future suspects that might potentially be broken from getting suspected by giving the false illusion that these Pokemon are good for the metagame. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that the metagame, in its current state, is not desirable. If you disagree, then fine with me, but I and many other people think it is not. People are afraid that the banning of Aegislash will drive Pokemon such as Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross to the front and thus invalidate any and all stall teams. While that is not only irrelevant to whether or not Aegislash is broken, it is also a completely baseless assumption and will probably proven to be false in due time. Between Stall with Aegislash being almost non existant in the first place (KratosMana being one of the few exceptions of a stall player who used an Aegislash against a team with Heracross and had it work out; had the Heracross carried Earthquake the game would have been over at that point as well), it's also a terrible attempt at justifying something like Aegislash in the tier. Yes, Aegislash does stop them pretty reliably, but if that Medicham or that Gardevoir really wants to get past you then they will, whether it's through coverage moves or just plain team support. And I'm not talking about ridiculously overspecific team support just concentrated on Aegislash here, I'm talking about Life Orb Thundurus chipping away at your Aegislash with Thunderbolt because nothing else wants to deal with it thus paving the way for any of these sweepers to do work. Aegislash's absence not only doesn't make these Pokemon significantly more common (come on, 2 weeks of suspect laddering aren't enough to tell whether something has become increasingly more common, the metagame will settle down eventually. Not to mention that Medicham/Heracross/Gardevoir have been on the rise by themselves recently as they are renowned as the most effective Pokemon when trying to handle stall; Aegislash's absence did not influence them to a great deal), but Stall teams always has trouble preparing for those Pokemon either way. There are very few Pokemon that can even hope to stand up to these three and Aegislash doesn't really change that as it, like I said before, doesn't even influence their usage by a great deal.

Now, for the real reason why I think Aegislash is broken. While stuff such as its stats, versatility, King's Shield etc etc make it a ridiculously good Pokemon, that's not outright enough to push it to Uber. However, Aegislash by itself impacts the future of the metagame negatively in a very severe way. With Aegislash around, there really isn't much of a case you can make for anything else getting banned. While Mega Mawile and Charizard X might get banned, we will still be stuck in almost the same metagame as we are now, and that is all because Aegislash's presence prevents Pokemon such as Thundurus from being suspected and possibly deemed broken (I'm not outright saying Thundurus is broken here but, fact is, once the metagame settles down and people realize that MGard/MHera/MMedi are only marginally better than they have been before, it will be the same as it is now: an undesirable state). With Aegislash gone, Pokemon that deserve to be suspected but don't have a chance in hell of getting suspected with Aegislash around (let's face it, a metagame with Aegislash around but without Thundurus around would be terrible; no one wants to lock themselves into Stone Edge with Scarf Terrakion to kill Mega Charizard X and give Aegislash a free turn in the process. Thundurus is the catch-all stop for sweepers and, with Aegislash around, thats the one most people will elect to use and there's no way you could make a case for it getting banned). So what it all boils down to if Aegislash isn't getting banned is that we will be stuck in the same indefinite state of this very same metagame minus a few Pokemon maybe. Like I said before, I, and many other people, think that this metagame is in no way in a desirable state. If you disagree, then feel free to vote Do Not Ban on Aegislash. But the point is that, to become a better metagame, we need to start somewhere. This somewhere has to be the root of all evil, the one thing holding back all the future suspects and the future of XY OU. Aegislash, although it seemingly "balances" the metagame just clouds everything with the illusion of there being balance but, at the end, we will be stuck with this same, undesirable metagame. If you want change, if you truly want to make XY OU a better metagame, then I urge you to vote Ban on Aegislash. Again, this is not an outcry because we think Aegislash is annoying or "restricts versatility", it is quite the opposite. We want to make a better metagame and believe that, with Aegislash around, this will not be possible.

We believe that Aegislash and its effect on the metagame is rotten to the core.

This is, in my name and all the other pro-ban people, a last desperate outcry to rid this tier of Aegislash, the core of all bad holding the metagame down.

 

[Deaga]

The above post is exactly what I think is COMPLETELY WRONG about the whole suspect testing process. It creates a "must ban" mentality. You're advocating banning Aegislash so that we can find that more stuff is broken if Aegislash isn't around and then ban them as well? Seriously??

Maybe it's just that Aegislash, along with everything it checks, aren't actually broken.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

It's not about finding stuff that is broken but about realizing that it is, in fact, broken.

for the record I would have voted ban on Aegislash even if it didn't destroy the whole metagame around it as well as the future metagame.

 

[Baharoth]

Nice post but you left out the most interesting part imo. Why do you dislike the current meta that much? From what i get out of your post you dont consider the current meta unbalanced so whats the problem? Maybe its just me but something beeing broken means for me that its not balanced, that it cant be handled well by the meta without forcing people to run very specific mons. A very good example was Mega Kanga who forced people to run niche stuff just to stop it somehow and it could even break most of them with the right move. I dont realy understand why you want to change the meta so badly if its fairly balanced as it is. Or as people say, dont repair stuff that isnt broken.

 

[Turducken64]

I originally was against an aegis ban however playing on the suspect ladder and testing out different mons and how they would do in the aegisless meta. Overall it is pretty similar right now as people aren't trying new untested strategies as the point is to ladder to get reqs I however was dumb enough to test different stall builds and didn't get reqs cause of it. Stall is as viable as ever in the new aegisless meta.

The thing most different about the aegisless in my opinion is not having to tread around aegislash. Having to find what set he is running and properly predicting the king shields and shadowballs. It is a little refreshing not having to deal with shadowball spam and the constant 50/50s he creates the suspect ladder I think is the step in the right direction for a desirable meta and the two weeks of testing and experimenting on the suspect ladder was extremely fun even with the massive tilt and cancer on the ladder.

 

[alexwolf]

Very interesting post CrashinBoomBang, however i have a question. In your first post, you said that Aegislash is not broken because of its individual performance, but because of its effect on the metagame. Then, on your second post you mentioned that even if it didn't made the metagame shit you would still ban it, which implies that you think it's also individually broken. So do you think it's also individually broken and if not, why would you still ban it even if it didn't create a bad metagame?

Another thing i want to clarify after seeing CBB's post. I am not 100% certain that Aegislash is not broken. Yes, when arguing we all seem pretty confident and sure about our opinions in order to convince the others, but the truth is that i am not sure about what should be done with Aegislash. I am leaning towards not banning him right now for reasons i already stated and explained, but i still find it very possible to change my mind regarding Aegislash in the future, depending on how the metagame shifts after some more important suspects are dealt with (Mega Mawile, Thundurus, Mega Charizard X). And this is exactly why i voted not to ban him, because there are more problematic threats in the metagame and because i wasn't sure about Aegislash anyway. So, when those threats are dealt with, i will be able to see Aegislash's effect on the metagame, as well as its individual performance, much more clearly.

So, if you, like me, are not sure about what to do with Aegislash, not banning it is the best course of action. We can always revisit Aegislash in future suspect tests, but almost certainly we won't retest Aegislash if it gets banned to Ubers.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Sorry I was not clear enough. While I, in particular, do think that Aegislash is individually broken, I meant to express that just his strength, versatility, unpredictability etc would probably not be grounds for a ban in many peoples mind. However, when viewing Aegislash and its overall effect on the present and future metagame, it's a lot easier to see why it is so cancerous and broken than when you just look at Aegislash individually and in a vacuum.

Also, Baharoth, you have not been ignored, I'm just struggling how to perfectly describe what I'm trying to get at with "undesirable" in this case. I'll try to express it, but if I can't I'll make sure to have someone else post in my stead to accurately express what I can't right now.

 

[Hakumen]

So, I didn't have the time to get reqs but I'd post my thoughts about why Aegislash should be banned imo :

Its stats are simply too good, with its incredible pseudo 720 BST. While stats don't mean wether something is banworthy but it is for Aegislash thanks to its attribute, mostly its typing.
Defensively, 150/150 Defenses is simply too much bulk, allowing it to take even super effective STABs. This coupled with King Shield which gives -2 to contact moves means that Aegislash is even harder to take down and means that it doesn't fear Pursuit(except Bishapr's one). On top of that, its typing is simply excellent, bringing it key resistances and immunities. Offensively, 150/150 is incredible, the same as Deoxys. While Shadow Ball isn't really powerful, Aegishlash make up it for due to how spammable this move is and because of how easily it can come. Having so much bulk and power makes Aegislash an amazing pivot that can do solid damages throughout the game. Moreover, Aegislash has the perfect coverage to deal with what resists Shadow Ball which brings me to the next point:

Aegislash is extremly versatile. There are counters to each set admitedly but nothing does well against every moves Aegislash can run. Hippowdown which is one of the best counters to the Tank set loses to SubToxic as Toxic will cripple it throughout the game while Aegislash can simply attack. Mandibuzz, which is considered as probably the most reliable answer loses to SubToxic, Head Smash version and hates repeated Flash Cannon making it a very shaky check. Chesnaught, another counter to the tank loses to SubToxic and Flash Cannon version. Heatran, a common switch-in loses to repeated hits due to its lack of recovery and can't do something against fast Aegi. Bisharp loses to Sacred Sword on the switch and fast versions. Really, nothing can truely beat Aegislash as it can easily bypass its counters according to what it runs. This is probably Aegislash's biggest problem and the main reason I want it banned.

It's also extremly unhealthy. You have to run multiple checks in order to not get overwhelmed by repaeated assaults and a way to deal with every sets. But, one of the worst things about Aegislash's centralization is that it forces some sweepers to run non-contact moves just for it. Lots of physical sweepers runs Earthquake instead of another better coverage move just for Aegislash. It's the only reason that Mega-Tyranitar, Pinsir, Dragonite and Terrakion run Earthquake. Pinsir would rather run Close Combat to do more to Skarmory/Rotom, Tyranitar would run either Fire Punch for Scizor and Ferrothorn or a reliable STAB in Crunch but definitely not Earthquake as I've seen on suspect ladder. Dragonite is kinda an exception as its Earthquake has utilities in hitting Heatran but it'd rather run Fire Punch for Skarmory, Scizor and Ferro. Terrakion runs Earthquake solety for Aegislash and its Choice sets aren't even good due to Aegi able to come on STABs. Some other mons uses super-effective moves just for it, think Greninja, Gardevoir and Medicham running Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball and Fire Punch only for Aegi. Lastly, while it isn't a banning argument, I feel that the metagame would be funnier without Aegislash as it keeps some Pokemon from being viable/good. Examples include Mega Heracross, Gardevoir and Medicham. Even though they are viable with Aegislash in the metagame, they are much better without it as you can see on suspect ladder.

50/50 is another negative aspect of Aegislash. Due to King Shield and Aegislash's amazing offenses, both setting up and attacking are risky. Let's take Charizard-X, if it decides to set up, then Aegislash can use Shadow Ball and it will lose lots of health but if it attacks, its attack may be lower because of King Shield. In either situation, the opponent is put in disadvantage because it can be ko'ed or cripple. This makes battles much less fun and reliant on luck as this kind of match-up is based only on luck.

 

[Rozykli]

So, if you, like me, are not sure about what to do with Aegislash, not banning it is the best course of action. We can always revisit Aegislash in future suspect tests, but almost certainly we won't retest Aegislash if it gets banned to Ubers.

If someone is ambivalent on the status of a suspect they should be abstaining their vote. Forcing yourself to vote one way or the other if you have no real opinion just dilutes the voting.

I see the situation you describe by waiting to be analogous to what happened to deo-s. Deo-s was broken at the time of its first suspect and continued to be broken until it was recently banned after its second test for all of the reasons that it was suspected in the first place. Just because mega luke and gene were arguably more broken did not make deo-s not broken and just forced players to deal with a broken mon for even longer. Aegislash I see the same way, just because thund and zard x are arguably more broken doesn't change the fact that Aegislash is broken. Voting not to ban just to test it later just appears to me as the same line of thinking of broken checking broken.

 

[gr8astard]

The 50/50 situation involving Aegislash is very much in its user's favor.

Consider a situation where your opponent has an Aegislash while you have a Choice Scarf Garchomp or a Sand Rush Excadrill, while your opponent also has a healthy Rotom-W in the back. What move do you go for? Surely you have to Earthquake, as in all likelihood the Aegislash will just scout with King's Shield. So you Earthquake and it went for King's Shield as predicted. Congratulations, you "won the first 50/50". Now we enter the second 50/50. Do you Earthquake again, or do you switch out predicting the obvious Rotom-W coming in? What if you predict the switch and he stayed in and Shadow Ball? Or what if, since you can hardly afford to overpredict in the first turn, he went to Rotom-W directly, and thus free to Volt Switch/Hydro Pump/WoW as he likes? So in essence even if you predict right the first time, it will only lead to a second fifty-fifty. And this is only considering a scenario without King Shield's side effect.

What differentiates Aegislash from other Pokemon with protect-moves is the fact that it has the ability to hit really hard with its puny "80 base power STAB move" coming from a 150 base Special Attack, and therefore you will always be on the back foot in these predictions against Aegislash. While it has 4 "common weaknesses", let's look at what these weaknesses are.
- Ghost: Aegislash itself and Gengar are pretty much the only things running Ghost moves in OU. Gengar can't come in on Aegislash and gets murdered by Shadow Sneak after a little prior damage.
- Dark: The only Pokemon i can think off the top of my head running Dark Pulse is Greninja, which comes nowhere close to OHKO-ing Aegislash with a Life Orb equipped. From the physical side, only defensive Foul Play users (all of which pretty much becomes useless if Aegislash is the SubToxic variant) and Bisharp can threaten it with a dark move as everything else has to worry about King's Shield.
- Fire: Not counting HP Fires which Aegislash can easily tank, only Heatran and Zard-Y has access to special Fire moves strong enough to dismantle Aegislash. Physical Fire move users such as Talonflame and Zard-X, and to a lesser extent things like Mawile and Medicham, have to worry about King's Shield crippling side effects, not to mention none of them can exactly switch in for free against the King's Shield 3 attacks Aegislash alone, as Life Orb/Sub Toxic Aegislash is a completely different beast.
- Ground: Finally, Earthquake is already a common enough move, and it is the best way to damage Aegislash. Yet it became almost mandatory on things like Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Heracross, and at the same time there is no shortage of switchins to Ground moves. This is coupled with the fact that a Max HP Aegislash is strong enough to always survive a max attack Jolly Landorus-T and simultaneously retaliate with a strong Shadow Ball.

Back to the Excadrill/Garchomp scenario earlier, why not run a Mold Breaker Excadrill or a non-choiced Garchomp, you say? Well unfortunately you want the ability to revenge kill things like DD Tyranitar, Charizard-X or Gyarados running rampant in the metagame, and perhaps you simply can't afford to run a Thundurus on your team. Of course, you can always attempt to run Specially Defensive Gliscor (which is probably the best counter to Aegislash, but hey guess what it has a 4x weakness to ice and Aegislash has access to 150 base SpA, I don't think it's hard to guess what people might come up with in this situation) + Thundurus + Defog Mon + 3 mons that aren't giving Aegislash free turns and can simultaneously handle Specs Keldeo (yes Specs only, as Scarf variants with a STAB 110 base move coming from 129 spA is too pussy to deal significant damage to Aegislash), Azumarill, Charizard-Y, Lati@s, Life Orb Terrakion, other common setup mons you can think of in OU in case Thundurus goes down, but it really isn't as easy as it sounds.

tl;dr: ban plz

 

[alexwolf]

If someone is ambivalent on the status of a suspect they should be abstaining their vote. Forcing yourself to vote one way or the other if you have no real opinion just dilutes the voting.

I see the situation you describe by waiting to be analogous to what happened to deo-s. Deo-s was broken at the time of its first suspect and continued to be broken until it was recently banned after its second test for all of the reasons that it was suspected in the first place. Just because mega luke and gene were arguably more broken did not make deo-s not broken and just forced players to deal with a broken mon for even longer. Aegislash I see the same way, just because thund and zard x are arguably more broken doesn't change the fact that Aegislash is broken. Voting not to ban just to test it later just appears to me as the same line of thinking of broken checking broken.

What i meant is that those Pokemon i mentioned have a very strong and negative effect in OU. So, once those Pokemon go, we will be able to see clearly whether Aegislash's presence on the metagame is positive or negative, because the metagame won't be distorted by the presence of those Pokemon. All that of course if you don't find Aegislash individually broken, because if you do, then of course vote ban.

Also, what one should vote when divided is a matter of ideology. If you believe that it's better to ban something not broken than to keep in OU something broken, then vote for Ban. However, if you believe that it's better to keep something broken and ban it later, instead of banning something potentially non broken for ever, then vote No Ban. As for Abstain, it's truly a pointless option and i don't even get why it exists but whatever.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I really don't think aegislash is causing players to win/lose games.. I heard somebody address this a few pages back but I want to bring this arguement back.

When you fought pokemon like megashkan, genesect, etc.. players were able to post battle videos and prove their brokeness.. Even if everybody ran sableye, that didn't stop a non mega evo kang with scrappy from power-up punching, returning, or drain punching sableye. Not to mention it could just switch anyway. This made it so mega kangashkan would have to be cornered to take it down, if you could. Genesect same case.. scarf +1 u-turn with only 1 weakness was just impossible to hit.. anybody who posted a battle video, could simply say "There was nothing I could do it'd switch anyway.. the game was decided by this monster who just crippled me without taking any damage throughout the match." Your opponent didn't have to be decent predicters with these pokemon.. as no matter what they predicted, a switch or heavy damage was guaranteed no matter what you decided to do. They had only 1 or 2 counters each.. scarfcarona for gen comes to mind. These pokemon gave the user a huge advantage, one that was pretty much.. 100/0 rather than aegislash's 50/50 where it can go bad for either player.. and each player is in control of what goes on rather than just one.

Aegislash on the other hand.. not once did somebody post a battle video trying to show how broken he was.. because any arguement torwards that video would be "You should've switch, that was your misprediction, that was his overprediction, you saw it's item you should've known it's set, etc.." It doesn't put the player in a situation of "This pokemon has to be cornered to counter appropriately." Aegislash WILL be taking damage and it won't be healing it off easily.. and the damage it deals to you when you switch in a check shouldn't be much different than trying to switch a pursuit trapper into a latios coverage move or well predicted scarf chomp move. 50/50 should actually be a good thing about a pokemon, that means it's using prediction rather than RNG or one sided advantages.

We can go on for months even after the suspect test is over or not.. thing is, no matter how broken we make aegislash look 1v1 on paper.. we're forgetting this is a 6v6 game and there will be many oppertunities to hit slash.. and if you don't get those oppertunities, then your opponent is probably just good. Aegislash is definitly a ghost of prediction.. but atleast what it takes to beat him (Prediction) is something that should be present on all teams and good players are recommended to always have..