CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 1 - Closed Concept Assessment

[Cretacerus]

As has been stated by others, the objective of completely dissuading the opponent from fainting one of our Pokémon is impossible for us to meet, and way to much to ask from this CAP. In order to win the game, the opponent will have to knock out every single of your Pokémon, so it is in his best interest to faint CAP19 in one way or the other.

What we can do, however, is to discourage a straight KO on CAP19, in favour of slower, but at the same time safer, ways of fainting it. One example of this would be the use of status instead of direct attacks in order to score the KO. Although the opponent would allow CAP19 to hang around for a few turns longer than necessary, it might be worth it in order to avoid the trouble that comes with directly KOing it.

Yes, encouraging the use of status is in no way the same as discouraging the opponent from fainting CAP19, but if the opponent chooses to forgo the opportunity of a direct KO on CAP19 fearing the consequences, I feel that we have already succeeded in this part of the concept.

In my opinion, promoting passive and slow KOing methods over direct and immediate ones has the advantage of being not too far out of our reach. We have to concede that the ultimate goal of the opponent is always to faint your Pokémon, so delaying the KO on CAP probably the closest we can get to fulfilling this concept.

This means that we have to discourage direct KOes, as has been suggested already in a lot of different ways, but we also have to give the opponent an alternative way of fainting CAP19 with notible advantages over the faster direct methods.

The most immediate advantage of passive damage is that they don't trigger mechanics such "Destiny Bond" or "Aftermath" with the KO. A Pokémon running those could definitely attract passive damage from the opponent in order to avoid their effects.

On the other hand, a big disadvantage of knocking out a Pokémon with a direct attack is that you are forced into using certain moves and types to do so, and those can be freely determined when building the CAP. Using attacks capable of fainting CAP19 will preferably put the opponent into a bad position later on.
A few examples of this would be having CAP19 be KOed only by:

• Choiced attacks from certain types
• Strong stat dropping moves, such as Draco Meteor
• Surprise coverage moves that the opponent might want to keep hidden for a more immediately threatening Pokémon

The opponent would definitely be wary of fainting CAP19 with those moves, even if he had the chance to, fearing the negative consequences after the KO.

Of course, we can't limit the entire range of potentially KOing attacks to those cathegories, but if they were to be CAP19's main weaknesses, direct attacking would be much less attractive as a whole


All in all, I think we should not dismiss the idea of discouraging the opponent from the KO too fast.
While we might not be able to prevent him from ultimately wanting to faint CAP19, it is in my opinion very possible to delay the KO and cause the opponent to willingly let CAP19 live a few turns longer, if just to ensure a safer KO for him.

 

[GoldNinja]

A few examples of this would be having CAP19 be KOed only by:

• Choiced attacks from certain types
• Strong stat dropping moves, such as Draco Meteor
• Surprise coverage moves that the opponent might want to keep hidden for a more immediately threatening Pokémon

The opponent would definitely be wary of fainting CAP19 with those moves, even if he had the chance to, fearing the negative impact after the KO.

Of course, we can't limit the entire range of potentially KOing attacks to those cathegories, but if they were to be CAP19's main weaknesses, direct attacking would be much less attractive as a whole


All in all, I don't think we should dismiss the idea of discouraging the opponent from the KO too fast.
While is might not be able to prevent him from ultimately wanting to faint CAP19, it is in my opinion very possible to delay the KO and cause the opponent to willingly let CAP19 live a few turns longer, if just to secure a more safe KO.

I like this idea. Following up on this, it would also be wise to give CAP 19 a large support movepool, with emphasis on status. This way you could have a Pokemon with a weakness to Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm, or Overheat (but little else) that has enough defense to survive and cripple the opponent before possibly passing off a Healing Wish to a teammate. This way, the opponent is forced to think carefully before taking out CAP 19. I understand that this is highly situational, but it's a start.

 

[Birkal]

THE FOLLOWING POST IS FROM THE CAP 19 LEADERSHIP TEAM COLLECTIVELY.
This post was co-authored by our Topic Leadership Team of ginganinja, Deck Knight, srk1214, and Pwnemon. It is to guide the rest of this conversation; please read it thoroughly and respond as necessary. Thank you.

As we talked, we kind of lost sight of the original concept, which was simply a Pokemon that discourages being knocked out. There is only one common scenario in competitive battling in which you can be discouraged from knocking out a Pokemon: when doing so results in an even worse situation. Our goal will be to make a Pokemon that can create these lose-lose decisions for the opponent: essentially, a CAP which is most easily knocked out by setup bait for a different Pokemon on the CAP's team.

This concept is about discouraging your opponent from making the CAP faint. As the only benefit of fainting is the free switch in it gives a teammate, we need to take advantage of that opportunity and make the free switch a worse outcome than letting the CAP run rampant.

The qualities of the CAP itself are not set in stone.What IS important is that we choose a partner or specific kind of ally that the CAP acts as a complement to, so that the CAP will lure it out - via a weakness in typing, playstyle, or movepool - the Pokemon that partner can set up on. That way the opponent is given the choice of "knock out the CAP and be swept, or don't knock it out—at least not as easily."

It is also important to consider what Pokemon in the OU metagame are capable of serving as set-up bait for other already existing OU Pokemon. Remember that our CAP will only facilitate the future set up, not set up on these Pokemon itself. For example, it does us no good to say that we should lure out Hippowdon if Hippowdown can Whirlwind away whatever we are going to try to set up.

So the questions to answer now are:

1) What Pokemon in the OU metagame are usable as set-up bait? Pokemon that fit this definition should be somewhat one-dimensional so that the teammate aiming to set-up can confidently do so after the CAP is sacrificed.

2) What Pokemon should we partner with? Ideally this Pokemon can set up on a subset of the OU metagame (identified as viable bait in question 1 above) that share a similar characteristic, rather than just a single Pokemon or group of rather random ones. Ideally this Pokemon will also be threatening enough that its set up is worth the loss of the CAP.

3) How do we structure our CAP so that it is best to knock it out with said partner's set-up baits? (without being near-invincible otherwise).​

Special note from ginganinja: Please, please be careful though when choosing what sweeper we want to pair this CAP with, because we absolutly want to make sure our sweeper can handle BOTH Quagsire and Clefable, otherwise there is little point in our CAP dying for the sake of getting this thing set up. Also take care to note the side effects of making X mon set up fodder for our Y sweeper, least you have Tyranitar using (say), Ice Beam on its moveset to counter (say) our sweeper of Landorus-I setting up on it.

 

[Yilx]

outside of the music album i was listening to, part of the inspiration for the concept came from when i was watching a battle vs a stall team.

the opponent only had one thing that had a shot of breaking through any of this team, a specs keldeo, but he couldnt relentlessly bring it in and fire off a hydro pump because the opposing player would easily revenge with his goth, taking away his best chance of victory against the opposing chansey and skarmory. in short, he needs keldeo to win, but if he KOs something at the wrong place or at the wrong time goth will come in and dispatch it, removing his win condition and causing him to lose.

the other part that eventually coerced me to write it was thinking about fainting in general as a battle mechanic. yes, it is fundamentally bad for your pokemon to faint. but, i was looking at the ways that it could be used to the player's advantage, such as a free switch, through a move like healing wish, allowing a dangerous sweeper to come in.

 

[Stratos]

I'd like to clarify that we are NOT explicitly making a setup support Pokemon. We are making a Pokemon that takes advantage of a threat in back to forestall its own demise.

As an example from my area of best expertise: I have a Doubles team whose best answer to Rotom-W is Amoonguss+Scizor. However, a common Rotom-W partner is Sub Heatran. Normally SubTran can't switch in on this combo for fear of spore, but if I kill the Rotom-W, Subtran gets a free Sub and goes to town on my team. So instead of it taking one turn to kill Rotom-w, it takes 3 or 4 because I have to kill it in a way that doesn't leave me vulnerable to SubTran. This gives Rotom multiple extra turns of burning things, hydro pumping, etc.

Our goal with this CAP is going to be making the Rotom-W of this scenario.

 

[namemaker]

Well, in response to the first question (What Pokemon are usable as set up bait), some mons stick out straight away. Mandibuzz (if boosting special attack/speed), Zapdos, Smeargle and certain Garchomp sets are very easy to set up on, in my opinion. Mandibuzz and Smeargle are extremely 1 dimensional, so we may not worry about surprises from them. Zapdos can run a very good offensive set, but that is never seen, instead a physically defensive set, usually with tbolt/roost/defog/toxic or U-turn.
That is about all I have to say right now.

 

[FMD]

Set up bait is rather simple. Look at Pokemon with little offensive presence, but high relative presence. Chansey for example. In fact, almost all walls could fall into this grouping, more or less. Things that rely on passive damage and high bulk to be effective: what we should be targeting and trying to draw out would be such Pokemon that would not be able to significantly impact our partner. Other examples of set up bait would be much more specific, such as some versions of Keldeo being unable to touch Jellicent. I think that such specific cases should be avoided in lieu of broader generalizations. Any specific case like this would end up partnering us with some specific sweeper, which brings me to my next point.​

I believe we should seek to match this CAP with an archetype rather than any specific sweeper. This will give the CAP a wider choice of team options and increased versatility. If we overspecialize, then we would be offered many fewer chances for the CAP to actually serve its purpose. If we broaden our pool of partners, we can allow this CAP's sacrifice to have a much more reliable impact on the game. Teams could potentially run two partners to the CAP to metaphorically hedge our bets when we enter a match. The two main groups I can see for this would be set up sweepers and sweeper that need just a bit of external help. The former is already well understood so I will waste no time explaining them. The latter is a bit less well known due to their inherent flaws. Such Pokemon include Mega Garchomp. It sports an astronomical Atk, but doesn't have the speed to pull off a sweep. Successfully leaving behind a Tailwind for it to exploit would turn an otherwise mediocre Pokemon, and arguably a waste of both a Garchomp and a Mega slot, into a very real and powerful threat to the opponent's entire team. There exists also a third set of Pokemon: those that can't safely switch in to begin a sweep. This encompasses things such as Talonflame that can have a powerful impact and low survivability; Pokemon such as this are really the best existing examples of what this concept seeks to proliferate. They capitalize on the death of a team member to be able to come in during a favourable situation with little resistance as to facilitate a sweep. This question could be seen as THE most important of the three as it can be seen to decide both others and completely define our course through the remainder of this project.​

As for how to accomplish these goal, I honestly have no fucking clue. We could try going for a certain combination of weaknesses and resistances/immunities as to make it more easily combated with certain Pokemon rather than others.​

 

[FireArrow]

I'm sorry, but I really don't like the idea of a straight up lure.

1. In our scenario it would be incredibly predictable.
2. The opposing team may not posses our target bait. (Wouldn't it be nice if CAP19 fulfilled the concept for every battle?)
3. Baiting an opponent is misleading them to kill you, not discouraging them.

Your trying to get the discussion back on track, but the lure idea itself was a byproduct of the derailment (mainly, point 3.)

If we have to play along with this, not only do we need to become nigh unstoppable after setting up, but we need to bait a wide variety of high usage Pokemon (to avoid issue 1) with potentially multiple recipients (to avoid issue 2.) I personally can't think of a way to do this, so I'm crossing my fingers someone else can.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Thanks Birkal and the TLT for prompting a clearer direction of discussion.

Ultimately, there are no Pokemon that are universally usable as set up bait.
Of course, context means everything, a Bisharp would have such an easy time setting up on Espeon, but it would struggle to set up on Heatran. Similarly Quagsire could easily set up on Heatran, but not on Venusaur.
These are very crude examples but my point is what one Pokemon can set up easily on, another can't. It would be difficult to create a list of Pokemon considered set up bait without any context behind it.

Based on this I would prefer NOT to partner with a specific Pokemon, but to a large number of Pokemon that can utilise the advantage of being able to easily set-up. Quite a few Pokemon residing in the BL limbo find setting up to be a valuable or even an integral part of their playstyle. Crawdaunt, Diggersby, Mega-Gardevoir, Manaphy, Salamence, Venomoth, Volcarona, Weavile, and Zygarde. It would be nice to boost their usage. However as we discovered in creating Volkraken, it's hard to increase a lesser used OU Pokemon because of the sheer number of other Pokemon that can abuse the utility just as well, and herein lies the problem with partnering up CAP19 with a specific Pokemon. Instead, should we choose to pursue this avenue, we should define the kind of set-up pokemon we would like CAP19 to support whether it's Calm Mind users, Sword Dance users, Dragon Dance users, Agility users, or even priority abusers that really benefit from setting up (for example BD Azumarill).

I think the final question cannot be answered right now, but that should hopefully fall into place following discussion on what sort of Pokemon(s) we want to partner 19 with.

Final note: I purposely avoided using the word 'sweeper' since they are but one type of Pokemon that appreciate the opportunity to set up, we could go down a tankish route, Curse users for example.

 

[namemaker]

Thanks Birkal and the TLT for prompting a clearer direction of discussion.

Ultimately, there are no Pokemon that are universally usable as set up bait.
Of course context means everything, a Bisharp would have such an easy time setting up on Espeon, but it would struggle to set up on Heatran. Similarly Quagsire could easily set up on Heatran, but not on Venusaur.
These are very crude examples but my point is what one Pokemon can set up easily on, another can't. It would be difficult to create a list of Pokemon considered set up bait without any context behind it.

Based on this I would prefer NOT to partner with a specific Pokemon, but to a large number of Pokemon that can utilise the advantage of being able to easily set-up. Quite a few Pokemon residing in BL find setting up to be valuable or even an integral part of their playstyle. Crawdaunt, Diggersby, Mega-Gardevoir, Manaphy, Salamence, Venomoth, Volcarona, Weavile, and Zygarde. It would be nice to boost their usage. However as we discovered in creating Volkraken, it's hard to increase a lesser used OU Pokemon because of the sheer number of other Pokemon that can abuse the utility just as well, and herein lies the problem with partnering up CAP19 with a specific Pokemon. Instead, should we choose to pursue this avenue, we should define the kind of set-up pokemon we would like CAP19 to support whether it's Calm Mind users, Sword Dance users, Dragon Dance users, Agility users, or even priority abusers that really benefit from setting up for example BD Azumarill.

I think the final question cannot be answered right now, but that should hopefully fall into place following discussion on what Pokemons we want to partner 19 with.

Final note: I purposely avoided using the word 'sweeper' since they are but one type of Pokemon that appreciate the opportunity to set up, we could go down a tankish route, Curse users for example.

I think this sounds very good, especially the bit bout curse. Curselax is an underrated threat in uu, and curse in general is less popular is the current metagame

 

[Lyren]

So the questions to answer now are:

1) What Pokemon in the OU metagame are usable as set-up bait? Pokemon that fit this definition should be somewhat one-dimensional so that the teammate aiming to set-up can confidently do so after the CAP is sacrificed.

2) What Pokemon should we partner with? Ideally this Pokemon can set up on a subset of the OU metagame (identified as viable bait in question 1 above) that share a similar characteristic, rather than just a single Pokemon or group of rather random ones. Ideally this Pokemon will also be threatening enough that its set up is worth the loss of the CAP.

3) How do we structure our CAP so that it is best to knock it out with said partner's set-up baits? (without being near-invincible otherwise).​

Good, I think this is the direction CAP 19 needed to go in order to be successful.

1) I think this is a deceptively hard question answer directly, so instead I'm going to talk about some things that are especially bad set up bait:

• The meaning of set-up implies that we want to get off some non-attacking moves, therefore anything that carries taunt, encore or a phasing move is one of the bigger "threats" to the goal of CAP 19. This of course could be avoided if CAP 19 itself also carried taunt or encore.
• Very powerful attacking presences can be a pain to try to set up on, but they're not impossible, and further can actually be one of the safer things to set up on if you know they don't have any utility moves. In order to do this however, you need some sort of debuff / status to make the blows from this sort of attacking pokemon weak enough that they won't completely destroy whatever it is that is sent in after CAP 19. This one would make most sense if we were trying to make the set-up poke and CAP 19 have well synergized typings in hopes of locking the opponent into a move that can be resisted.
• Status users might not seem so bad at first, but they can cause problems if we can't ensure the status won't get on the next poke we send in. Again this could potentially be stopped with taunt / encore, but depending on the status that might be difficult to time. A safer option for this sort of poke would be to paralyze it to ensure you're follow-up poke can set up a sub to avoid statusing.
• Opposing set-up might actually be the most dangerous thing to try and set up on. If CAP 19 becomes unable to taunt / encore this sort of poke effectively, from what it sounds like CAP 19 will become pretty huge set-up bait itself. Aside from that, depending on the follow-up poke it it's possible that both teams would boost up considerably (if they're bulky pokemon) only to have the first person who lands a critical hit win. I think one direct thing that we might want to think about is what happens in a CAP 19 vs CAP 19 match up. Due to the nature of the pokemon it seems like a really awkward scenario, especially depending on the size of it's movepool.

2) My first thought for a pairing with CAP 19 was just anything with a high-risk, high-reward set up move (i.e. shell smash or belly drum). Those moves are the biggest single turn pay out we can get, but that might be underestimating what we can do with this concept. There are also plays that can be done, such as using CAP 19's fainting to send in something like gorebyss who can hope to set up a bulky enough sub that it can't be broken in one turn, then shell smash to ensure it can pass a shell smash safely to anything on your team. I'm not saying this should be our goal (mostly because it's an extremely one-denominational strategy that tends to fail for no reason other than it's own predictablness) but it's important to keep in mind that things such as smashpass will not only be possible as a consequence of CAP 19, but will even be encouraged.

3) I'm not sure it's possible to ensure that it is KO'd by a status spreader for the simple reason that the status user can simply switch out once it's managed to status you. We could try to give CAP 19 an option like Refersh to encourage the status user to stay in and continually attempt to status, but this still seems like too difficult of an approach. Tanky pokes on the other hand (especially Assault Vest and Life Orb users), are much easier to bait. Under normal conditions all they have to do to stop set-up against them is use their raw force to KO the poke before it can get anything up. However, if CAP 19 can debuff them appropriately they're left sitting on the field with no way to stop set-up. That being said, CAP 19 could still encourage this sort of direct KO by being fairly self-sufficiant at avoiding passive damage and further have only average defense stats so that a heavy hitter is the most logical way to bring it down.

 

[Agile Turtle]

I talked to Yilx about his inspiration for his concept, and I now understand his concept a lot better.

I have some helpful and insightful logs from #cap on irc, and I thought I would share them. These conversations happened within the span of one hour, and were all technically part of the same conversation, but I have broken it up into three parts for convenience.

In the first section, Yilx talks to srk1214 about the team that was used in the battle he got his inspiration from.

IRC log 1

10:13 srk1214 yilx, I still have no idea what you're on about
10:13 srk1214 stall is hardly known for using gothitelle
10:14 Yilx it
10:14 Yilx was
10:14 Yilx a very specific case
10:14 Yilx srk
10:14 Yilx but
10:14 Yilx it was part of the inspiration
10:14 Ununhexium Srk stall could use gothitelle to fuck other stall teams
10:14 Yilx and
10:14 srk1214 stall does need a stallbreaker of its own
10:15 Yilx !usage1337 gothitelle teammates ou
10:15 TIBot Chansey +39.426% | Quagsire +28.882% | Amoonguss +20.375% | Skarmory +19.327% | Ditto +17.375% | Gliscor +16.295% | Charizard +15.384% | Gyarados +11.392% | Rotom-Wash +9.900% | Landorus-Therian +5.376% | Breloom +5.336% | Scizor +5.073%
10:15 srk1214 but it will almost never be gothitelle because gothitelle does absolutely nothing useful itself in the stall department
10:15 Ununhexium Wtf
10:15 Yilx there
10:15 Yilx see
10:15 Yilx look at
10:15 Yilx its most used
10:15 srk1214 stall breakers will usually be taunt gliscor or a mew
10:15 Yilx teammates
10:15 Yilx then you'll get
10:15 Yilx what i mean
10:16 srk1214 !Usage gothitelle moves ou
10:16 TIBot Trick 91.995% | Psychic 69.627% | Thunderbolt 46.108% | Hidden Power Fire 44.638% | Rest 44.619% | Psyshock 30.495% | Energy Ball 18.086% | Taunt 11.490% | Hidden Power Ice 10.438% | Grass Knot 7.290% | Shadow Ball 5.431% | Other 19.784%
10:18 Yilx yes
10:18 Yilx like i was saying
10:18 Yilx goth was
10:18 Yilx big on stall
10:18 Yilx at one point in time
10:18 Yilx because of that one damn team
10:18 Yilx with trick/rest/taunt/psy goth
10:18 Yilx and
10:18 Yilx !usage1337 gothitelle teammates ou
10:18 TIBot Chansey +39.426% | Quagsire +28.882% | Amoonguss +20.375% | Skarmory +19.327% | Ditto +17.375% | Gliscor +16.295% | Charizard +15.384% | Gyarados +11.392% | Rotom-Wash +9.900% | Landorus-Therian +5.376% | Breloom +5.336% | Scizor +5.073%
10:18 Yilx this proves it
10:19 FMD Team being Gothitelle, Chansey, Quagsire, Amoonguss, Skarmory and Skarmory?
10:19 Yilx no
10:19 Yilx goth chansey quag amoong skarm zard
10:19 FMD Oh, I've seen that one a few times.

I have separated section one from section two here, however the conversation continued. Though the topic did not change, the focus of the topic did. The focus was very important for this next section so i felt it appropriate to split them here. Now onto a more important section: section two.

In the second section, Yilx explains the inspiration for Einherjar to me and I begin to truly understand his concept. I understand his concept deeply now. This conversation really helped me understand, and I hope that everyone else will read this and hopefully understand the concept better from it.

IRC log 2

10:20 Yilx yes
10:20 Yilx the goth
10:20 Yilx was really
10:20 Yilx part of the inspiraiton
10:20 Yilx simply put
10:20 Yilx if oyu used a choice mion
10:20 Yilx to knock something out
10:20 Yilx goth would come in and dispatch it
10:20 Yilx taking away your chances
10:20 Yilx of winning
10:20 Yilx vs the stall
10:21 Agile_Turtle so its about your win condition?
10:21 Yilx i bringing this up
10:21 Yilx as an example
10:21 Yilx of
10:21 Yilx "do not want to KO"
10:22 Agile_Turtle ah
10:22 Agile_Turtle bc keldeo can KO
10:22 Agile_Turtle keldeo is your win condition
10:22 Yilx you need keld
10:22 Yilx to kill
10:22 Yilx the
10:22 Yilx chans and skarm
10:22 Yilx but
10:22 Agile_Turtle and if you use keldeo
10:22 Yilx if its gone
10:22 Yilx you cant win
10:22 Yilx but if you bring it in
10:22 Yilx and KO something
10:22 Agile_Turtle you lose keldeo
10:22 Yilx goth will come in
10:22 Yilx and you lose
10:22 Yilx yes
10:22 Agile_Turtle so you end up not wanting to
10:23 Yilx so you have to KO at the right moment
10:23 Yilx and use the correct move
10:23 Yilx you cant bring it on chansey
10:23 Yilx because if you secret sword and kill it
10:23 Yilx goth resists sword
10:23 Yilx and then skarm wall you for life
10:25 Agile_Turtle this is good
10:25 Agile_Turtle v good explanation
10:27 Yilx this was
10:27 Yilx aprt
10:27 Yilx of the main inspiration
10:27 Yilx for my concept

With my new understanding of the concept, I was able to build off my previous idea that I posted in here earlier:

Making your opponent not want to kill it is probably near impossible, if possible at all. It is also incredibly situational. So rather than making the opponent not want to kill CAP19, we could make the opponent not want to try to kill it.

We could do this by making it difficult to kill CAP19 with any random pokemon or method, and make it so the opponent gets punished if they try to kill it with any random mon or method. This brings back the idea of having to strategically KO CAP19 that DarkSlay and Yilx have discussed many times on IRC. This sounds like it would probably make for a very powerful pokemon, however I do have the feeling that we could accomplish this without making CAP19 broken.

In this third section, I discuss my idea with Dragonblaze052 (FMD on IRC), Toebag and Kingriolu. I discuss the kind of direction I'd like to go with this concept, and how it works for our concept. I believe the conversation may help others understand the concept better, and look at the concept through a different perspective.

IRC log 3

10:31 Agile_Turtle tbh this brings me back to what i've said (and posted) already:
10:32 Agile_Turtle We make CAP hard to just outright kill by any random mons or strategies
10:32 Agile_Turtle so that they might have to use their win condition to beat it
10:33 FMD Hard to kill is a bad idea though.
10:33 Agile_Turtle i didnt mean hard to kill
10:33 Agile_Turtle i mean just take out easily
10:34 Agile_Turtle but it needs to be one that the opponent would want to kill enough to consider using their win condition to beat it
10:34 Agile_Turtle one that causes a hassle for the opponents team
10:34 Agile_Turtle which is why choosing a team archetype is a good idea imo
10:35 Toebag I think that's a pretty sound idea
10:35 Agile_Turtle because then we know what mons the opponent would have to counter the archetype
10:36 Agile_Turtle so they have a mon that does well against a lot of mons that are common in a certain team archetype
10:36 Agile_Turtle we take that mon out and the lose that advantage
10:37 Agile_Turtle so CAP effectively becomes a lure
10:37 Agile_Turtle that draws out the opponents win condition
10:38 FMD I think we should have a partial or flexible archetype rather than a full archetype for the team.
10:38 FMD CAP/set up 1/set up 2/Gothitelle for example.
10:39 Agile_Turtle yeah i don't really like choosing specifics
10:40 Agile_Turtle but if it needs to be done to fulfill the concept
10:40 Agile_Turtle then it works for me
10:41 Toebag The problem for me now is how do we draw out the win condition because it will vary from team to team
10:43 Agile_Turtle that's the thing, toebag
10:43 FMD I think we should figure out what /our/ win condition would be and then find out the rest from there.
10:43 Agile_Turtle that's why picking an archetype works well for us
10:44 Agile_Turtle because the opponent's win condition is going to be a mon that does well against the archtype we have
10:44 Agile_Turtle so if we choose an archetype
10:44 Agile_Turtle we know what mons we want CAP to lure out
10:46 kingriolu so, we are essentially designing cap 19 to be a lure?
10:46 Agile_Turtle no
10:46 Agile_Turtle we aren't guaranteed to design it one way or another yet
10:46 Agile_Turtle because we are still in concept assessment
10:46 kingriolu ah, okay
10:48 FMD We want it to be any combination of: lure, cleric, field effect setter, crippler and shuffler. At least according to the CA thread, that is.
10:48 Agile_Turtle well lure is really just a secondary role
10:49 Agile_Turtle but its the role that works
10:49 Agile_Turtle its just
10:49 Agile_Turtle we really want to make the opponent think
10:49 Agile_Turtle and weigh the pros and cons of killing it
10:50 Agile_Turtle we want there to be a reason for the opponent to want to take it out
10:50 Agile_Turtle not just because it walls everything else on the opponents team
10:50 Agile_Turtle if it doesnt do anything of value
10:50 Agile_Turtle then its of no value to us
10:51 Agile_Turtle if its of no value to us then the opponent wont bother sending in their win condition to take it out

 

[Stratos]

Its worth noting that what yilx described and the scenario i gave with rotom-w and heatran are entirely analogous scenarios.

When you think about it, there are three main factors at play in determining the strength of CAP 19.

1. How "selective" the CAP is. Abomasnow and Wonder Guard Scizor can both "filter" in Fire-types to kill them, but the Scizor is obviously going to a better job of making sure it's killed by the right things.
2. How threatening the CAP is. A Burmy and a Genesect are both easiest to kill with Fire-type moves. But I'm obviously more likely to kill the Genesect with a Fire-type than a Burmy if there's an Mgyara in back. i can afford the time it takes to slowly kill Burmy, but Genesect might be worth the risk.
3. How immediately game-ending the backup is. Whether I have a Wish Vaporeon or a Gyarados in back, both appreciate free switch-ins on Fire types. But I'm a lot less likely to KO something with a Fire type if they have the Gyarados.

Worth noting that strength increases as any of the above three increase, but willingness to "activate the trap card" decreases with 3, but increases with 1 and 2.

In yilx's scenario, the immediate game-ending potential was extremely high, so he was not willing to KO no matter what. Our goal for this CAP will be to find the right balance of the three factors so that the opponent is often unwilling to "activate the trap card," yet the CAP is neither worthless nor broken. Technically, then, the CAP can be partnered with anything—but setup sweepers tend to have the most potential to immediately end the most games, which is why we jumped to those.

edit: in response to concerns on IRC:

17:09 ginganinja: so we have established, its a sweeper?
17:09 Pwnemon: probably
17:09 Pwnemon: i mean there could be some non-sweeper route but i dont see it
17:09 ginganinja: and we have established, that if you don't remove your sweepers counter
17:09 ginganinja: u have no threat
17:10 Pwnemon: if you dont remove the sweeper's counter
17:10 ginganinja: ergo you have no lose lose situation
17:10 Pwnemon: then there is no lose-lose
17:10 Pwnemon: then youre just using a normal pokemon
17:10 Pwnemon: like
17:10 Pwnemon: i dont think u realize
17:10 Pwnemon: that cap19 doesnt have to be DEFINED by this lose/lose
17:10 Pwnemon: (because if we tried to make it that way it would be a bad pokemon)
17:10 Pwnemon: this lose/lose is just a weapon in its arsenal

 

[Lyren]

In yilx's scenario, the immediate game-ending potential was extremely high, so he was not willing to KO no matter what. Our goal for this CAP will be to find the right balance of the three factors so that the opponent is often unwilling to "activate the trap card," yet the CAP is neither worthless nor broken. Technically, then, the CAP can be partnered with anything—but setup sweepers tend to have the most potential to immediately end the most games, which is why we jumped to those.

edit: in response to concerns on IRC:

17:09 ginganinja: so we have established, its a sweeper?
17:09 Pwnemon: probably
17:09 Pwnemon: i mean there could be some non-sweeper route but i dont see it
17:09 ginganinja: and we have established, that if you don't remove your sweepers counter
17:09 ginganinja: u have no threat
17:10 Pwnemon: if you dont remove the sweeper's counter
17:10 ginganinja: ergo you have no lose lose situation
17:10 Pwnemon: then there is no lose-lose
17:10 Pwnemon: then youre just using a normal pokemon
17:10 Pwnemon: like
17:10 Pwnemon: i dont think u realize
17:10 Pwnemon: that cap19 doesnt have to be DEFINED by this lose/lose
17:10 Pwnemon: (because if we tried to make it that way it would be a bad pokemon)
17:10 Pwnemon: this lose/lose is just a weapon in its arsenal

I feel like this thread has presented just about every possible way in which CAP 19 can support the next thing you switch in after it's KO'd. I don't know if we should proceed by choosing which of those we wish to use and then proceed with what it does aside from awaiting KO to have them pair well with what it does on death, or if we should put aside it's KO functionality to present a list other things it could do in the meantime then mix and match the two lists at the end to have one congruent idea.

I think we might be advantaged to talk about what playstyle(s) we hope CAP 19 to do well against, or well with, so that we can tailor our other concepts around that to some degree, because as of now in order to make some of our ideas work would require some completely incompatible things with some of the other ideas that have been presented.

I know a lot of people in this thread have been implying that CAP 19 would fair well on a fairly offensive team with all the talk of set-up sweepers, but I'm curious to see what options it might have for supporting bulkier teams as well. Would it be possible to make something that could support multiple play styles just by changing out moves and abilities? Are we better off to focus really heavily on supporting just one group or battling just one style to strengthen the effectiveness of the concept, or do we want to try to make it possible to do more things to make it less predictable and more general use at any point in the battle?

One thing that hasn't really been brought up a lot is what supporting a set-up sweeper like this actually means for the team attempting it. If a sweeper tries to set up too early in the match, there won't be enough wear on the team to sweep it. Conversely if you wait too long, your team is basically having to fight 4 - 6 meaning you can end up being pressured to the point that you never get an opportunity to set up. The timing of when CAP 19 should be used in battle needs to be considered if we're to make it's fainting an effective tool. Therefore we should consider the rest of what it does needing to come into play early to mid game when it's otherwise on the field.

 

[GoldNinja]

I feel like this thread has presented just about every possible way in which CAP 19 can support the next thing you switch in after it's KO'd. I don't know if we should proceed by choosing which of those we wish to use and then proceed with what it does aside from awaiting KO to have them pair well with what it does on death, or if we should put aside it's KO functionality to present a list other things it could do in the meantime then mix and match the two lists at the end to have one congruent idea.

I think we might be advantaged to talk about what playstyle(s) we hope CAP 19 to do well against, or well with, so that we can tailor our other concepts around that to some degree, because as of now in order to make some of our ideas work would require some completely incompatible things with some of the other ideas that have been presented.

I know a lot of people in this thread have been implying that CAP 19 would fair well on a fairly offensive team with all the talk of set-up sweepers, but I'm curious to see what options it might have for supporting bulkier teams as well. Would it be possible to make something that could support multiple play styles just by changing out moves and abilities? Are we better off to focus really heavily on supporting just one group or battling just one style to strengthen the effectiveness of the concept, or do we want to try to make it possible to do more things to make it less predictable and more general use at any point in the battle?

One thing that hasn't really been brought up a lot is what supporting a set-up sweeper like this actually means for the team attempting it. If a sweeper tries to set up too early in the match, there won't be enough wear on the team to sweep it. Conversely if you wait too long, your team is basically having to fight 4 - 6 meaning you can end up being pressured to the point that you never get an opportunity to set up. The timing of when CAP 19 should be used in battle needs to be considered if we're to make it's fainting an effective tool. Therefore we should consider the rest of what it does needing to come into play early to mid game when it's otherwise on the field.

I think CAP 19 could work well against an HO team. While it's alive, it could serve to debilitate the opponent as much as possible, and then it could pass a Healing Wish to a more offensively inclined teammate that needs it if necessary. The idea is to wait until CAP 19 has used a bunch of status inflicting moves so that the opponent has to change his strategy, then heal a teammate with Healing Wish (but only if necessary) and set up with that teammate.

 

[alexwolf]

Its worth noting that what yilx described and the scenario i gave with rotom-w and heatran are entirely analogous scenarios.

When you think about it, there are three main factors at play in determining the strength of CAP 19.

1. How "selective" the CAP is. Abomasnow and Wonder Guard Scizor can both "filter" in Fire-types to kill them, but the Scizor is obviously going to a better job of making sure it's killed by the right things.
2. How threatening the CAP is. A Burmy and a Genesect are both easiest to kill with Fire-type moves. But I'm obviously more likely to kill the Genesect with a Fire-type than a Burmy if there's an Mgyara in back. i can afford the time it takes to slowly kill Burmy, but Genesect might be worth the risk.
3. How immediately game-ending the backup is. Whether I have a Wish Vaporeon or a Gyarados in back, both appreciate free switch-ins on Fire types. But I'm a lot less likely to KO something with a Fire type if they have the Gyarados.

Worth noting that strength increases as any of the above three increase, but willingness to "activate the trap card" decreases with 3, but increases with 1 and 2.

In yilx's scenario, the immediate game-ending potential was extremely high, so he was not willing to KO no matter what. Our goal for this CAP will be to find the right balance of the three factors so that the opponent is often unwilling to "activate the trap card," yet the CAP is neither worthless nor broken. Technically, then, the CAP can be partnered with anything—but setup sweepers tend to have the most potential to immediately end the most games, which is why we jumped to those.

edit: in response to concerns on IRC:

17:09 ginganinja: so we have established, its a sweeper?
17:09 Pwnemon: probably
17:09 Pwnemon: i mean there could be some non-sweeper route but i dont see it
17:09 ginganinja: and we have established, that if you don't remove your sweepers counter
17:09 ginganinja: u have no threat
17:10 Pwnemon: if you dont remove the sweeper's counter
17:10 ginganinja: ergo you have no lose lose situation
17:10 Pwnemon: then there is no lose-lose
17:10 Pwnemon: then youre just using a normal pokemon
17:10 Pwnemon: like
17:10 Pwnemon: i dont think u realize
17:10 Pwnemon: that cap19 doesnt have to be DEFINED by this lose/lose
17:10 Pwnemon: (because if we tried to make it that way it would be a bad pokemon)
17:10 Pwnemon: this lose/lose is just a weapon in its arsenal

In regards to point 1, i think we should create a Pokemon with few but very recognizable flaws, flaws that are exploited by a very specific amount of Pokemon, Pokemon that are easy to spot from the team preview. What i mean by this? Take for example Mega Charizard X. It has a Ground, Rock, and Dragon weaknesses, while using Fire and Dragon STAB moves, with Flare Blitz usually being its strongest option. It also has good mixed bulk, often invests in HP, and also has Roost, which means that super effective hits have to be STABed to hurt Mega Charizard X, with a few exceptions (Earth Power offensive Heatran). This means that bulky Ground, Water, and Rock types are the best answers to Mega Charizard X, with Ground- and Rock-types having a super effective STAB move to hit Chairzard with, and Water-types resisting Charizard's strongest move (Flare Blitz) and being able to cripple it back in some way (Slowbro with Toxic / Thunder Wave, Alomomola with Toxic, Azumarill with CB Play Rough, Mega Gyarados with Earthquake, Rotom-W with Thunder Wave, Quagsire with Toxic / Earthquake). Dragon moves are not a threat for two reasons: First, Mega Charizard X outspeeds any relevant Dragon-type threat and OHKOes it after a boost and second, no Pokemon uses Dragon-type moves in OU outside of Dragon-types. And that's it basically. There are no common Pokemon that can surprise Mega Charizard X, and you are almost always sure that if you don't face one of the aforementioned Pokemon after a Dragon Dance, Mega Charizard X will have a field day. This happens because Mega Charizard X has only two effective weaknesses (Ground and Rock) when it comes to checking / countering him, which can only dent him when they are backed up by STAB, with a few exceptions, as well as great bulk and a reliable healing move.

So, we should aim to create a Pokemon which attracts a very specific group of Pokemon and isn't prone to coverage moves of Pokemon without STAB to its weaknesses, either because of great bulk, reliable recovery, an ability, or a combination of all those. This way, we will be able to pinpoint exactly what kind of Pokemon the CAP will attract and thus we will know exactly what kind of Pokemon our sweepers will be taking advantage off (or whatever Pokemon will take advantage of the CAP's death).

Regarding point 2. I think the CAP should be threatening enough to force the opponent to bring in specific checks and counters, and not generic catch all checks to offensive / support Pokemon, because we need to control the kind of Pokemon that the CAP attracts. In order to not break the CAP, we can always make this list of Pokemon quite big, but still very specific, so that people can't just stick a random coverage move and check the CAP (similarly to how you can't stick random Ground / Rock / Dragon type moves to Pokemon without STAB on those moves and expect them to deal with Mega Charizard X).

Finally, regarding point 3. I think the CAP should be able to set up an ideal or at least beneficial condition after its death for a big amount of Pokemon, in order to not be predictable. If the CAP's support to X sweeper ends up being predictable, then the opponent can very easily read our gameplan and form a strategy around it. However, if the CAP can set up a beneficial situation for more than one good Pokemon (Pokemon that are able to fit on the same team), then the opponent can't simply get around our strategy, because there is no single strategy but multiple ones. We need to make the CAP's supporting abilities after its death versatile, otherwise the opponent can very easily adapt to the situation or even avoid it altogether.

tl;dr

• We need a Pokemon with few weaknesses that are only exploited by a very specific amount of Pokemon
• The CAP must be threatening enough to force those specific checks and counters to come in every time the CAP forces a switch
• The CAP's supporting abilities after it gets KOed must be versatile, otherwise our gameplan becomes telegraphed

And of course any move or ability that can punish the opponent for KOing the CAP gets extra points and is pro-concept, so things such as Destiny Bond, Rough Skin, and Aftermath are always welcome and add a layer of complexity to the CAP.

 

[Ignus]

We have new goals in this thread. So let's talk about our sweeper.

Obviously, we want to give our sweeper a close to 100% chance of set-up success once CAP has died. However, what we DON'T want is 100% chance BEFORE CAP has died. If we do, what's the point in sacrificing CAP in the first place? There isn't one. That means the difference between beating our enemy's mon is the free switch. The difference is that between a check and a counter. A large majority of the people on this thread know this difference, So I won't go in to detail with it. If you really care about the difference between the two, this article from a while back does a great job of explaining the difference: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

From this, we can make our first conclusion.

• The Pokemon CAP loses to have to be checked by our sweeper. Not countered.

Next, we have to make sure we can ACTUALLY SET UP. Weird, right? So our targets need to be checked in a special kind of way by our sweeper. On the free switch in we get, we MUST be able to boost. So this changes our definition slightly. We want a boost check.

Wait, Ignus, what's the difference between a boost check and a regular check?

A regular check wins a match up only when it gets a free switch in against it's opponent. A boost check wins a match up only when it gets a free switch, AND is able to get off a boost in the process. Furthermore, a boost check is not an exclusive title. A boost check can both a boost check and a counter to a pokemon.

Ignus, what the fu-

Shh. Let me give an example.
I have a swords dance Scizor waiting on the wings. My opponent has a Gengar out right now with around 80% HP, about to kill whatever I have in right now. Right now I have three options that are useful to me. I can:

1. Switch in Scizor, take a shadow ball (about 2/3 HP), and KO with bullet punch.
2. Sacrifice what I have in right now, send out Scizor, and KO with bullet punch.
3. Sacrifice what I have in right now, send out Scizor, SWORDS DANCE and take a shadow ball, Next turn KO with bullet punch.

In the first two situations, I am countering Gengar. Scizor will win despite not having a free switch in. However, the third situation is a boost check. If I didn't have the free switch in, I wouldn't be able to boost that turn safely. This is an extremely common situation, and happens quite often. So let's redefine our first conclusion:

• The Pokemon CAP loses to have to be 'boost checked' by our sweeper. Being countered is OK as long as our sweeper can't freely switch in and boost.

Does that make sense? I hope so. I had to rewrite this like four or five times before it made sense to me.


So how does this effect our choice of Sweeper? Well, we know a few things.

• The scarier the Sweeper is after a boost, the better.
• The more things it boost checks, the better.

Edit: Removed my arguments for Mawile after talking on IRC about it. Sure, he smashes through everything after a boost, but he's not an endgame. He's revenge killed by too large a range of pokemon to be an effective and consistent end-game, due to his extremely low speed and reliance on sucker punch.

 

[NumberCruncher]

So how does this effect our choice of Sweeper? Well, we know a few things.

• The scarier the Sweeper is after a boost, the better.
• The more things it boost checks, the better.

Okay, I'm not going to lie. I have a specific pairing thought out right now. Someone who appreciates Hazards, free turns, and who can beat almost anything thrown at it after a boost. Duh, Mega-Mawile. It can take a hit. It has priority to keep ahead after the boost. It's few checks and counters die depending on the moveset. Not only that, but the things it boost checks are almost entirely one dimensional. Here's a few examples:

Bisharp
<TIBot> Sucker Punch 99.407% | Knock Off 97.903% | Iron Head 95.284% | Swords Dance 60.364% | Pursuit 24.337%
Azumarill
<TIBot> Aqua Jet 97.944% | Play Rough 97.098% | Waterfall 86.802% | Knock Off 44.447% | Belly Drum 36.596%
Breloom
<TIBot> Spore 97.597% | Bullet Seed 91.000% | Mach Punch 89.548% | Rock Tomb 81.234% | Swords Dance 7.547%
Conkeldurr
<TIBot> Drain Punch 98.478% | Mach Punch 97.411% | Knock Off 92.900% | Ice Punch 87.454% | Thunder Punch 4.764% | Other 18.993%

Around 90% the same movesets.

So yeah. Mawile.

I agree with you up to the point where you decided Mega Mawile was the pick. The problem with creating a partner for Mega Mawile is that it has to compete with Tyranitar for that position, since all of Tyranitar's counters are boost checked by Mawile except Venusaur, who it boost checks once sleep is on somebody else. Not only that, it sets up Sand for Mawile to stand under. This means we need to create a Pokemon that would make me drop Tyranitar from a team with Pokemon synergistic to Tyranitar.

This is why I propose that Gyarados should be the Pokemon we focus on setting up. His natural Intimidate upon entering the field, and the utility of Dragon Dance as a way to accelerate it past counters, combined with it's efficient Bulk all make it a great sweeper once it can land successfully. The other good aspect going for Gyrados is that the things it boost-checks, it can usually Boost check unconditionally, thanks to the above.

 

[GoldNinja]

I agree with you up to the point where you decided Mega Mawile was the pick. The problem with creating a partner for Mega Mawile is that it has to compete with Tyranitar for that position, since all of Tyranitar's counters are boost checked by Mawile except Venusaur, who it boost checks once sleep is on somebody else. Not only that, it sets up Sand for Mawile to stand under. This means we need to create a Pokemon that would make me drop Tyranitar from a team with Pokemon synergistic to Tyranitar.

This is why I propose that Gyarados should be the Pokemon we focus on setting up. His natural Intimidate upon entering the field, and the utility of Dragon Dance as a way to accelerate it past counters, combined with it's efficient Bulk all make it a great sweeper once it can land successfully. The other good aspect going for Gyrados is that the things it boost-checks, it can usually Boost check unconditionally, thanks to the above.

Would it be worth specifically focusing on Mega-Gyarados? On the switch in, you still get the Intimidate drop (before the mega) and now you have an even higher power DD sweeper with Mold Breaker EQ.

 

[Lyren]

I don't think you guys have bad choice of sweepers, but I am a bit confused about how selecting a specific sweeper furthers the concept for CAP 19. I can understand pointing out effective examples can help us identify the sort of role we want to focus on supporting but unless we identify some aspect of CAP 19 that we can tailor to fit these pokemon choosing the set-up sweeper itself doesn't really help us. Further like alexwolf pointed out, CAP 19 can be far more dangerous if it can support a variety of different things on the same team. If we want to tailor CAP 19 towards any Pokemon in particular, we want to make sure that we're not diminishing it's ability to support a wider spectrum of Pokemon. I think that if we're going to suggest sweepers (or any poke really, it doesn't have to be a set-up sweeper) it's worth trying to reason what elements of CAP 19 could be made to best support that pokemon and what that would mean for it's ability to support everything else.

For example, if you wanted to support Gyarados, would you need to make CAP 19 specially bulky to better utilize it's intimidate by enticing your opponent to KO with physical attacks? Maybe alter it's typing to be weak to ground and/or fighting? If so would any more specially bulky sweepers on your team have a harder time utilize CAP 19's death? Would a weakness to such common offensive types be a good thing for your team overall?

 

[NumberCruncher]

I think that if we're going to suggest sweepers (or any poke really, it doesn't have to be a set-up sweeper) it's worth trying to reason what elements of CAP 19 could be made to best support that pokemon and what that would mean for it's ability to support everything else.

This is a pretty interesting way to approach the topic. Let's see if I can address some of your concerns.

First things first, and I think we can all agree on this, is that no matter what sweeper we end up setting to go with CAP, CAP can't be weak to Bug or Electric, since that just invites the opponent to U-Turn/Volt Switch off it, effectively removing the one advantage the CAP actually had.

The second big thing I think CAP 19's partner needs is an effective way to punch out Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail mons. This means the CAP's partner must have an inherent effectiveness against Heatran, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and other such Pokemon. This either means using a Pokemon with Taunt, like Gyarados or a Pokemon who's set-up is something the team can enjoy, like Reuniclus.

The third big thing is that CAP 19's partner can't have a Pokemon that counters it no matter how much it boosts. No matter how many Swords Dances Mega-Pinsir sets up, it's never going to keep itself alive against Talonflame because it's faster and able to OKHO you at priority, so your set-up is going to go to pot once the opponent makes a sack of his own to give Talon a free switch-in.

The fourth thing of note is that CAP 19 either has to be able to punish the opponent for trying to set up against it, or the partner would have to be both speedy and have a priority move at the ready. As an extreme example, suppose the Pokemon we wanted to set up was Calm Mind Mega-Gardevoir, and the CAP was built to attract Fighting-types. The issue is that Terrakion can set up a Swords Dance or two to kick Gardevoir down a peg, effectively removing your ability to set-up, so the CAP should not lose to Terrakion if the Terrakion isn't trying to beat it.

As for what it means for supporting the rest of the team, the key words are stacking resistances. For the Gyrados example, you most likely want a CAP 19 that has a weakness to EQ users of a physical nature, and Rotom-Wash and Landorus-T both love coming in against those. Thus having Gyrados, Rotom-Wash, Landorus-T, and CAP 19 on one team creates more inevitability for the CAP to exploit once it kicks the bucket. For the Mega-Gardevoir supporter, things like Talonflame and Latios might be appropriate.

 

[CerberusSONE]

We have new goals in this thread. So let's talk about our sweeper.

Obviously, we want to give our sweeper a close to 100% chance of set-up success once CAP has died. However, what we DON'T want is 100% chance BEFORE CAP has died. If we do, what's the point in sacrificing CAP in the first place? There isn't one. That means the difference between beating our enemy's mon is the free switch. The difference is that between a check and a counter. A large majority of the people on this thread know this difference, So I won't go in to detail with it. If you really care about the difference between the two, this article from a while back does a great job of explaining the difference: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

From this, we can make our first conclusion.

• The Pokemon CAP loses to have to be checked by our sweeper. Not countered.

Next, we have to make sure we can ACTUALLY SET UP. Weird, right? So our targets need to be checked in a special kind of way by our sweeper. On the free switch in we get, we MUST be able to boost. So this changes our definition slightly. We want a boost check.

Wait, Ignus, what's the difference between a boost check and a regular check?

A regular check wins a match up only when it gets a free switch in against it's opponent. A boost check wins a match up only when it gets a free switch, AND is able to get off a boost in the process. Furthermore, a boost check is not an exclusive title. A boost check can both a boost check and a counter to a pokemon.

Ignus, what the fu-

Shh. Let me give an example.
I have a swords dance Scizor waiting on the wings. My opponent has a Gengar out right now with around 80% HP, about to kill whatever I have in right now. Right now I have three options that are useful to me. I can:

1. Switch in Scizor, take a shadow ball (about 2/3 HP), and KO with bullet punch.
2. Sacrifice what I have in right now, send out Scizor, and KO with bullet punch.
3. Sacrifice what I have in right now, send out Scizor, SWORDS DANCE and take a shadow ball, Next turn KO with bullet punch.

In the first two situations, I am countering Gengar. Scizor will win despite not having a free switch in. However, the third situation is a boost check. If I didn't have the free switch in, I wouldn't be able to boost that turn safely. This is an extremely common situation, and happens quite often. So let's redefine our first conclusion:

• The Pokemon CAP loses to have to be 'boost checked' by our sweeper. Being countered is OK as long as our sweeper can't freely switch in and boost.

Does that make sense? I hope so. I had to rewrite this like four or five times before it made sense to me.


So how does this effect our choice of Sweeper? Well, we know a few things.

• The scarier the Sweeper is after a boost, the better.
• The more things it boost checks, the better.

Okay, I'm not going to lie. I have a specific pairing thought out right now. Someone who appreciates Hazards, free turns, and who can beat almost anything thrown at it after a boost. Duh, Mega-Mawile. It can take a hit. It has priority to keep ahead after the boost. It's few checks and counters die depending on the moveset. Not only that, but the things it boost checks are almost entirely one dimensional. Here's a few examples:

Bisharp
<TIBot> Sucker Punch 99.407% | Knock Off 97.903% | Iron Head 95.284% | Swords Dance 60.364% | Pursuit 24.337%
Azumarill
<TIBot> Aqua Jet 97.944% | Play Rough 97.098% | Waterfall 86.802% | Knock Off 44.447% | Belly Drum 36.596%
Breloom
<TIBot> Spore 97.597% | Bullet Seed 91.000% | Mach Punch 89.548% | Rock Tomb 81.234% | Swords Dance 7.547%
Conkeldurr
<TIBot> Drain Punch 98.478% | Mach Punch 97.411% | Knock Off 92.900% | Ice Punch 87.454% | Thunder Punch 4.764% | Other 18.993%

Around 90% the same movesets.

So yeah. Mawile.

I think that we should expand it to all sweepers that require set up and/or boost check a majority of the metagame.
I think we should not limit ourselves to just Mawile, of course.

And I think to give support to NumberCruncher I must agree that we should not make CAP19 weak to Bug and Electric, and should resist moves that phaze it.
Hopefully this gives us some direction in future posts and discussions.

 

[Burt Racecar]

I personally would feel incredibly uneasy partnering up CAP19 with specifics, especially to Mega-Mawile who can already so easily set up on many pokemon with thanks to Intimidate and impressive physical bulk.

Anyway, I was curious about these boost checkers that Ignus mentioned (which is pretty well thought out and explained by the way), so I ran some calcs on them Breloom and Conkeldurr can at best get a 4HKO on Mega-Mawile, so in effect, they are simply not staying in to attempt anything.
Bisharp and Azumarill on the other hand, can at least 2HKO Mega-Mawile providing they've already set-up. I'm assuming they'd try based on their most common sets, and if CAP19 has to lose to them, it should be carrying taunt or be able to apply offensive pressure to force Bisharp and Azumarill to remove it from the field without attempting to set up, otherwise this happens:

+5 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 229-271 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 224-265 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and Mega-Mawile and CAP fails.


In essence, if we go down the the route of partnering with Mega-Mawile, we should focus on drawing in Bisharp and/or Azumarill, the other two boost checks simply won't stay in against Mawile anyway. Although I would be concerned this may invite (Mega-)Gyarados to teams who would obliterate Mega-Mawile.


I'll reiterate what CerberusONE said; we should not limit ourselves to one pokemon. Instead we should try to enable a number of potential Pokemon to benefit, Mawile included. In my opinion for CAP19 to have a lasting effect after KO then we absolutely cannot narrow it down into a core than can easily be checked/countered by teams in advanced. They may have an answer if it's partnered with Mawile for example, but not if it's partnered with Manaphy.


Although, if we do settle on Mega-Mawile or another specific, then alexwolf previously mentioned some potential requirements which are important to enable its success:

• We need a Pokemon with few weaknesses that are only exploited by a very specific amount of Pokemon
• The CAP must be threatening enough to force those specific checks and counters to come in every time the CAP forces a switch
• The CAP's supporting abilities after it gets KOed must be versatile, otherwise our gameplan becomes telegraphed

I think the first point is very hard to execute since there are only a few Pokemon who currently do it well. Scizor is a great example available in OU since it's only weakness is fire and it has a number of resistances, clearly inviting a specific set of pokemon to KO it.

The second point is just as important as the first and is also hard to execute since great oversights could be made. The appropriate coverage and power must be there to only allow the designated pokemon to come into play against CAP19. For example, if we want Azumarill to come in but not Mega-Gyarados, then it would be very difficult to achieve based on their typing - 19 could carry a fighting move, but that'd be resisted by Gyarados assuming it hasn't gone mega yet.


After all my own theoretical talk and considerations, and this, what is largely a useless post, I'm still convinced that allowing for a broader range of partners is more beneficial to both CAP19 and the concept behind it than selecting a specific partner.

 

[FMD]

We really shouldn't be focusing on a Pokemon that can already provide itself with all the boosts it needs. If we do so, what real impact would the CAP have for its partner? If Mega Mawile would get off a Swords Dance either way, why would you ever sacrifice the CAP to get a Swords Dance? Anything that can already boost reliably SHOULD NOT be our focus for this CAP because it greatly diminishes or possibly even voids the CAP's usefulness. Instead we should be focusing on Pokemon that NEED the extra turn.

 

[Yayz]

Bisharp... on the other hand, can at least 2HKO Mega-Mawile providing he's already set-up. I'm assuming he'd try based on his most common set, and if CAP19 has to lose to him, it should be carrying taunt or be able to apply offensive pressure to force Bisharp... to remove it from the field without attempting to set up, otherwise this happens:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 224-265 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and Mega-Mawile and CAP fails.

Another fun thing is that this happens even if Bisharp hasn't set up. If he has, he's at +3. so we have that to consider.