np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

You're assuming that i'm using faulty logic and you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions right away. I don't always reply with explanations ready. I make a few firm points and that's it. Why should i make examples of every post in every thread? I don't have too. I bet that Aegislash is usable in Ubers, but im saying that it shouldn't be in Ubers. I don't believe that Aegislash is broken (many people complain because of the stats). It's a resourceful Pokemon to use in the OU tier for countering Fairies, Psychic, Ghost, and even Dark types.

Sorry if I assumed something about your statement. What you first said was kind of short and to the point and the only thing that seemed to be an indication of why you believed Aegilsash wasn’t supposed to be in Ubers was that it “fit” better in OU than in Ubers. You said:

the users saying that Aegislash deserves to be Ubers – it makes me wonder what purpose does Aegislash bring to Ubers? --it would be outclassed big time.

That’s a fine thing wonder if you're building an Uber team and worried your Aegislash won’t pull its weight, but it’s not something people wonder when tiering OU, and therefore not a concern on this thread. Uber viability has nothing to do with OU balance so it should not influence your decision. Which was my main point.

You also implied that just because Aegislash is used in Ubers -- doesn't take away that it's broken in OU. Well that's what you think... I think completely different than you.

I wasn't trying to imply anything about Aegislash OU status in that post. To be honest I actually don’t know exactly what your sentence here is trying to say. But there are plenty of Pokémon not broken in OU that can be used in Ubers. Basically all I was really trying to say is:

If you think Aegislash isn’t broken in OU, cool you're free to argue that. However your reasoning shouldn't ever have anything to do with stuff that goes on in Ubers. This applies to all OU tiering decisions not just Aegislash, so no implications here.

 

[UnicornDemon]

When are we gonna get the results of the vote/suspect test?

 

[Subject 18]

The results will be posted when all the votes are in and have been counted. Just be patient.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm not saying Aegis stops ExcaTar. I'm pointing out what I saw in a meta without Aegis. Nearly every non-stall team I saw was ExcaTar. That is a fact. If you think about it though, that fact can make complete sense. The big three Mons that people said would dominate with Aegis gone are Mega Gardevoir, Medicham, and Heracross. Because of their fragility, Sand Rush boosted Excadrill out speeds and breaks the former two. Also with Aegis gone, heavy offense as a style in general becomes dominant and more powerful, leading to a further increase in the style ExcaTar are played on. Aegis himself doesn't stop ExcaTar, but its absence promotes their presence, as well as Birdspam for the same reason of checking the rise in Garde and Medicham, as well as Hera now. The Birdspam also increases the TTar use as well, who checks Talonflame well, and those who still run EQ on Pinsir, and Choiced Staraptor locked into the wrong move. Excadrill checks the birds otherwise. Its a repeating circle around these all-out offense playstyles. That's what I saw and what I was reporting_ and now trying to logically justify.

And I admit the fact that I waited till the last day possibly biased my findings, but all the people I was against and chatted with were also going for reqs, not trolling as you claim. So I don't necessarily believe that portion because of the conversations I had. I'm just being a messenger here to what I saw and talked about on the ladder.

Seth, while there are some good points you're making, I have to point out that you're contradicting yourself--

On one hand, you say the meta has not changed since the Deo bans because it has not been given the time to change-- which I would totally agree with--

But then you try to say that "A non-Aegi meta will be a less diverse meta" based entirely on what you saw on the current suspect ladder.

I think you can see the contradiction, and appreciate how ridiculous the second claim is (the first point is the correct one of the two).


In any case, to me the real issue with Aegislash is not how it affect's the meta's creativity (hell, I'd never base any 6th gen ban on how it affects creativity-- this isn't the 30 viable mon circle jerk of DPP).

The real issue with Aegi is just how consistently it performs and threatens the enemy.

When you play offense, there will always be some "dead cards" in your hand because the enemy is just too prepared for it (using Talonflame and you see both heatran and rotom-w on the other side).

On stall, there will often be a mon that isn't pulling its weight in a given battle (brought Skarm, seeing all special attacking hyper offense plus char-X).

But Aegislash will almost never be a dead draw.
Aegislash will almost never be a non-factor.

There are no defensive teams that are not at risk of cracked open by its power and coverage.
There are no offensive teams that can write it off as something easy to take down (ie taking it down will almost always mean incurring significant losses, even just in the form of major damage to a key member).

There is no battle or situation where it is a non-factor.

There's its problem.

 

[Sun King]

In any case, to me the real issue with Aegislash is not how it affect's the meta's creativity (hell, I'd never base any 6th gen ban on how it affects creativity-- this isn't the 30 viable mon circle jerk of DPP).

The real issue with Aegi is just how consistently it performs and threatens the enemy.

When you play offense, there will always be some "dead cards" in your hand because the enemy is just too prepared for it (using Talonflame and you see both heatran and rotom-w on the other side).

On stall, there will often be a mon that isn't pulling its weight in a given battle (brought Skarm, seeing all special attacking hyper offense plus char-X).

But Aegislash will almost never be a dead draw.
Aegislash will almost never be a non-factor.

There are no defensive teams that are not at risk of cracked open by its power and coverage.
There are no offensive teams that can write it off as something easy to take down (ie taking it down will almost always mean incurring significant losses, even just in the form of major damage to a key member).

There is no battle or situation where it is a non-factor.

There's its problem.

I agree with you that it always pulls its weight, but since when is that a bad thing? That's like telling Lionel Messi he can't play soccer because he's good at everything.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Yes, and i have explained like a hundred times already why KS rarely causes 50/50 and why, contrary to what Seevea wrote, the risk of using it is greater for Aegieslash in most cases. The only thing that speaks against KS is the point that Chou mentioned. With the help of KS Aegi can get through situations that would be a sure loss for other mons, however that usually comes along with a severe risk that Aegi has to face which offsets this advantage somewhat.

That's bull.

If Aegi doesn't want to face the "risk" of King Shield, all it has to do is-- not use King's Shield.

The point is that spotting mons who can set up or status on a king's shield is not hard, while the decision to use or not use King's Shield is completely in the hands of the Aegi user.

The "risk" of KS cannot even be called a risk.

It just means that in a situation where any other mon would be screwed, Aegi has the OPTION to take an EDUCATED risk that can give it the chance to win.

In my eyes that's only s plus, and not at all a loss.

 

[BlazeTemplar]

I can't argue that Aegislash is an amazing pokemon. Great stats, diverse movepool, and the rare ability to run mixed. However, even so, Aegislash isn't as broken as people think. (Most the time) Yes, walling it is next to impossible, but that can be said about a lot of pokemon. (Such as Azumarril)
But, arguing that its sets have to be known to deal with it is... A mixed bag really. Landorus T is 2 shot by shadow ball, but offensive Lando-T can OHKO with EQ even in shield forme. LO Mamo also has that same ability, and as its faster it's still a one shot.

This is really similar to the debate of Scizor in Gen IV. When BP first came out it definitely overcentralized the meta, but the meta adapted to Scizor. (It never got banned to ubers either)
Now before I get the 'but scizor is predictable' debate, please don't. I wasn't talking about its versatility but its viability there and the impact it had on the meta.

That's what team building forces a person to consider. Prominent threats, and how to deal with them. I like runing rotom w a fair amount because Talonflame and Aegislash don't like dealing with bulky rotom w. Talonflame is shut down by rotom resisting and aegis hates burns (unless special but the residual is handy anyway, also lets you know if it's a weakness policy set or not.)

Ultimately, Aegis is a threat that has no perfect counter (although Klefki does a fantastic job of dealing with it most the time though with foul play and such), like many other Pokemon, but can still be handled relatively well.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

I agree with you that it always pulls its weight, but since when is that a bad thing? That's like telling Lionel Messi he can't play soccer because he's good at everything.

It's bad for the reason within everything Chou already said. No other Pokemon is a never non-factor. As in, Aegislash is set above all other Pokemon in OU. it's a step away form the "balance" people prefer in a tier because a team with Aegislash is just more likely to be prepared for more stuff. The rare few other Pokemon that may also never/rarely be non-factors seem to be the ones everyone keeps claiming should get suspected after/ before Aegislash anyway.

This goes back to the idea that Aegislash's strain on team building isn't just the necessity of checking it, but the fact that putting it on your team easily prepares you for so so much and puts a strain on you to always use it.

 

[RevengeOfHiddenPower]

Chou Toshio is making a bad argument (only saying Aegi is versatile, which nobody will argue) and certain other people are comparing apples to oranges. KS is no worse than Swords Dance

I see absolutely no problem with Aegislash. If anything, it makes games more competitive. It's not Gen IV Garchomp, as it actually has checks and can't beat everything with a single set (see the Mandibuzz argument.)

 

[Toljik]

Chou Toshio is making a bad argument (only saying Aegi is versatile, which nobody will argue) and certain other people are comparing apples to oranges. KS is no worse than Swords Dance

I see absolutely no problem with Aegislash. If anything, it makes games more competitive. It's not Gen IV Garchomp, as it actually has checks and can't beat everything with a single set (see the Mandibuzz argument.)

I'm starting to agree.

Maybe some amount of centralization is a good thing when it's centered around a Pokemon that isn't broken. We can't prepare for every single team style, and if everything from HO to Gravity teams was equally viable, it's possible that OU would become just as matchup reliant as it would be if Xerneas was allowed. I think Aegislash makes teambuilding easier even when you don't intend on putting it on your team.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

Chou Toshio is making a bad argument (only saying Aegi is versatile, which nobody will argue) and certain other people are comparing apples to oranges. KS is no worse than Swords Dance

Of course it is. SD doesn't allow you to bullshit your way out of situations you shouldn't be winning. KS does that. SD doesn't allow you to have both monstrous offenses and monstrous defenses on both ends of the spectrum. KS is far, far worse than SD.

I see absolutely no problem with Aegislash. If anything, it makes games more competitive. It's not Gen IV Garchomp, as it actually has checks and can't beat everything with a single set (see the Mandibuzz argument.)

It's not Gen IV Scizor either, as some people were suggesting. Scizor didn't hit quite as hard from both sides and take hits as well on both sides. Scizor wasn't tanking strong STAB super-effective hits. Scizor wasn't doing everything all at once the way Aegislash is. Most importantly, Scizor wasn't bullshitting its way out of situations that it was going to lose with minimal opportunity cost. Aegislash isn't gonna 6-0 teams, but Aegislash is never gonna be a liability either, as Chou Toshio pointed out, and when you combine its sheer utility and reliability with its ability to pull wins out of its ass, you have something that really needs to go.

 

[Muk]

There's no question that Aegislash is really fucking good. I've been on the fence about it, but ultimately I don't think Aegislash is enough of a problem to warrant a ban. I would have liked to make a longer/earlier post about this, but I never really got around to doing so, lol. So, rather than repeat some of the earlier explanations as to why I don't find it broken (e.g. it has a hell of a lot of checks and it does have counters in SpD Gliscor/Amoonguss, its offensive capabilities are often overstated, the ability to get past its checks and counters is nothing unique, etc.) -- see, for example, this post by Agent Gibbs for that, because I agree with pretty much everything in it, as well as a few posts by other people like alexwolf -- I'm going to just respond to a few things brought up in this thread that I don't think hold much merit.

On centralization (i.e. Pokemon having to run suboptimal coverage moves to beat Aegislash): Earthquake is hardly a suboptimal coverage move, yet some of the most common examples I've seen in this thread are of Dragonite, Terrakion, and Pinsir having to run it. Okay, so you'd prefer to run Fire Punch over Earthquake on Dragonite to hit Ferrothorn (and to a lesser extent, Skarmory and Scizor). What do you do about Heatran, or even Pokemon like Mawile and Terrakion that you can no longer OHKO (or can no longer OHKO without locking yourself into Outrage)? As for the other two Pokemon, and more importantly in general, I'm not seeing how letting Terrakion run another STAB/boosting move or letting Pinsir potentially beat Skarmory and Rotom-W (or even things like Air Balloon Heatran and non-weakened defensive Tyranitar) will improve the "health of the metagame". The same applies to Pokemon like Scizor and Conkeldurr -- Knock Off is hardly a suboptimal move. These Pokemon are all good, and it's not like Aegislash is holding them back. Speaking of which, Aegislash supposedly stopping things like Jirachi from being viable in OU all by itself is simply untrue (in the case of Jirachi, see: Bisharp, Landorus, etc.).

On 50/50s: Lol, I can't believe that people are actually bringing this up as an argument to ban something. In theory, it seems like Aegislash can potentially BS its way out of unfavorable matchups with King's Shield, but really, what in OU actually relies on non-Defiant/Sucker Punch contact moves to beat Aegislash (that has a neutral or better matchup against it, so not something like Scizor or Medicham)? I guess...AV Azumarill, Talonflame, and AV Conkeldurr? In the case of something with some sort of setup move, like Mega Charizard X, risk versus reward is absolutely still a factor (see the linked post for a good explanation of this), just like with every other supposed 50/50 scenario in Pokemon (see: Sucker Punch, Choice items, even prediction in general in some situations). In other words, the vast majority of Pokemon that are capable of beating Aegislash don't care about King's Shield, and the few that do generally still have the advantage.

 

[Jarrod]

lemme attempt to explain what cbb means by an undesirable meta. note: much of this is strictly related to aegislash. here's why i consider this meta undesirable.

- easy buttons for teambuilding. by this i primarily mean aegi and thund-i. these two pokemon take so much strain and creativity out of teambuilding, especially for offense. with thund-i, you don't have to give a shit about boosting sweepers. they're all accounted for in one pokemon that happens to already be naturally faster than most of the tier and absolutely devastate much of it too. aegi holds back a lot of things, including as cbb aluded to certain mons that we're given an illusion that are good for the meta.

- multiple versatile, powerful pokemon with few/no counters. by this i'm talking about aegi and thund again, but also things like mawile and debateably some others, like char x. this exacerbates the matchup component of the game because it is so difficult or even impossible to prepare for these pokemon in their entirety.

- staleness, by this i mean the fact that the meta has barely changed since may, even with the banning of the deos, aegi is holding so much stuff back and creating a mask of balance. so many of the same/similar builds, one of the few things is spdef gliscor which is one of the few good aegi answers.

you can feel free to disagree, but i can't see how anyone could want this meta.

Finally, I have a reason to post in this thread in support of the pro-ban side. Well said.

Before I begin, may I say that I am not the person to consult for anything official, I have a horrendous rating in both OU and the suspect test, but I have been on Showdown for a while. Just not Smogon Forums. Thank you.

I would say to ban Aegislash. If you look throuh the X and Y OU list, for one it is pretty short, and for two, every other pokemon is meant to be a counter to Aegislash. Mandibuzz is a good counter, Bisharp is a good counter, Quagsire is a counter. (eh...?) Entire OU teams are bent around countering Aegislash, if each of your pokemon doesn't have either a noncontact move or a super effective move, you're out of luck for climbing the ladder. Due to this, almost every OU team is the same. Really, a ban to Aegislash would shake up the game. Pokemon like Assault Vest Conkelldurr would see more usage, pokemon like Hawlucha would be viable, (Really, only one decent Aegislash killing move?) pokemon that are of types like Fairy or Ghost would see more usage. Maybe Mega Tyranitar or Alakazam would be more viable. In short, you would see a lot more unique pokemon if Aegislash was banned from OU.

My second point is that, due to Stance Change, Aegi has a pseudo 720 BST. This is tied with Arceus for the highest non-mega BST of ALL POKEMON. Even Ubers. The only pokes that have higher are the two M-Mewtwos. If that doesn't put it in Ubers, idk what does.

My third statement is about Kings Shield. This move, for those that don't know (Mainly all of the people who say Aegi should stay) is exactly like Protect, except it halves the attackers Atk if it blocks a contact move. This means that if you try to use Knock Off to slap off its Leftovers or Weakness Policy (Which activates before it gets knocked off) then you either get killed because of your attack drop or switch and get killed by Shadow Ball (There arent Normal ypes in OU.) Kings Shield has priority, so any pokemon that doesnt get an attack drop has to deal with Shield Forme on the next turn due to its terrible speed, and then it uses Priority Kings Shield the next turn. You never get the chance to attack Blade Forme. This is a game breaking move. If you dont ban Aegislash, ban Kings Shield.

For all of you whining about losing your shiny new toy, just use Doublade. It can run Eviolite and has a half decent Atk stat that you can use Swords Dance with. I have one that I use in X and Y that owns with Gyro Ball. With that, I'm done.

The OU is not built around countering Aegislash. I think the majority of people on either side of the Aegislash issue would agree with me on that. It is however true that the viability of certain Pokemon in the OU is hindered due to Aegislash providing a hard counter (e.g. Starmie has some difficulty). To say that things like Mandibuzz and Bisharp are only OU because of Aegislash is absurd. Bisharp's knock off hurts a butt load of Pokemon, and Mandibuzz walls a butt load of Pokemon. Quagsire, as you implied by your "eh", is usually not a suitable answer to Aegislash - only really the Swords Dance set. Quagsire's use comes from Unaware, not from Aegislash. Quagsire, despite having some problems with Aegislash, is OU (which kind of goes against the point you were trying to make by bringing him up).

Aegislash has enough going for it such that a ban is justified. But I wish people would stop overstating it's impact on the meta. Yes, it has had a big impact on what makes the OU tier what it is today. But OU pokemon are not simply there because of Aegislash - that is a big overstatement. If that were the case, M-Blastoise would surely be OU.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

A few responses to Muk/Agent Gibbs' post.

On people overselling Aegislash's power: Sure, it doesn't have Electivire's coverage, but come on. EVire tends to need to split its attacking EVs to be a good mixed attacker, and on 123/95 offenses that is suboptimal, not to mention it needs to run a nature that lowers one of its defenses. Aegislash can go Quiet and put it all in Special Attack, and still give Bisharp and Tyranitar the dick with Sacred Sword because 150/150+ is stupid that way. And even if it's not that strong, Aegislash is not usually played as a sweeper. While having Shadow Ball slightly weaker than Garchomp's EQ may be meh for sweeping, for a tank/pivot, that is really, really fucking great. Rotom and Scizor only wish they could hit that hard while taking the hits they do.

On 50-50s: In theory, DD Charizard X has the advantage over Aegislash. In practice, though, Aegislash will either win, or end up either dropping Zard-X's attack two stages/hitting it so hard with Shadow Ball that it no longer can sweep with Flare Blitz as much as it'd like. Sure, some strong special attackers and status users may be able to force it out, but the Aegis user can choose to switch out, or really hurt them anyway with Shadow Ball. Rotom-W can burn Aegislash, but Quiet doesn't mind taking a little residual damage for a chance at smashing its inferior Special Defense with a powerful Shadow Ball, weakening it enough for something to finish it off.

Point is, no matter how prepared your team is for Aegislash, taking it out will still more likely than not come with a heavy cost, either one of your setup sweepers getting maimed/crippled or some part of your defensive core getting busted up, and that often makes an opening for another win condition on your team. This ties in to the point about Aegislash always pulling its weight. Nothing else in OU can boast that it does this. Maybe Mega Mawile and Zard-X, and even then 1) they too could be broken so they're not the best comparison 2) They're Megas, which ups their opportunity cost quite a bit compared to Aegislash 3) even then Aegislash is more reliable and versatile than the two.

Finally, as I keep saying, you may be fine with each of these things on its own--its absurd bulk, its power and coverage, its versatility, its reliability, its ability to get past counters with King's Shield, but do you really want all that in a single package?

 

[LimaPro643]

While many say that Aegislash has a pseudo-720 total, I wholeheartedly disagree. Aegislash's main deal is that it can only be one or the other: defensive or offensive. Of course, King's Shield helps to bridge the gap, but Aegislash is forced to keep itself as slow as possible for this. If the in-between stages are left open by not outspeeding the opponent or not KOing with Shadow Sneak, Aegislash's good-but-not-incredible defensive capabilities become absolutely pitiful.

Back to either one or the other: Just because Aegislash has potentially 150 base in its central stats doesn't mean it can use all of them to the fullest. Even with stellar Defense and Special Defense, Aegislash's HP is subpar. And Aegislash has trouble with its common weaknesses and lack of recovery. Sure, if an Aegislash sets up a few Swords Dances, it's difficult to stop, but pretty much any strong, special Fire move won't give it much trouble. It's usually limited to two attacking moves and is almost forced into a sort of Truant stage, albeit invulnerable. The point is, exposing Aegislash isn't too difficult. You're either breaking through a tough wall or finding an opening.

Lastly, Aegislash's pseudo-Truant either allows you to take advantage of it or out predict it. Either way, Aegislash promotes thinking of the best possible options. I've personally never had too much trouble with Aegislash, and you don't even need to build a strategy around conquering it. Literally anything bar Chansey and Blissey can effectively take Aegislash down. It's just a bit more difficult when it's not vulnerable.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

You're looking at this the wrong way. It's not just about taking down Aegislash, because Aegislash isn't just a sweeper, or just a wall. No one is making a serious argument that Aegislash never dies or that it will 6-0 an entire team, because that's not usually its job. Aegislash is like a Swiss knife--it isn't something you stab someone to death with, though you can do that in a pinch, but it does various other tasks extremely efficiently. The tank set is not strong enough for a sweeper, or bulky enough for a wall, but it is neither. It is a tank/pivot, and an incredibly good one at that. Stops physical setup sweepers in their tracks, just takes hits and hits back pretty damn hard. I'm not even going into SD or SubToxic (which breaks stall's usual answers to Aegislash that aren't SpD Gliscor, while still tanking hits and hurting things with a really strong Shadow Ball).

You will eventually conquer Aegislash--but at what cost? Offensive teams potentially get one of their setup sweepers borked by King's Shield or maimed by an obscenely powerful Shadow Ball, defensive teams end up with holes that other, stronger sweepers can exploit because Aegislash punched something with a powerful Shadow Ball off its fully invested, nature-boosted Special Attack. Aegislash usually does what it needs to, whether or not it dies doing it, and it does a whole lot of other things it doesn't even need to do thanks to King's Shield. And that's closer to the heart of what people find objectionable about it.

Also, you are underselling Aegislash's 150/150 defenses and King's Shield. While 60/150/150 doesn't look too good because of the 60 HP, the fact of the matter is that merely great HP investment allows it to tank even STAB super-effective hits. And, as for King's Shield, it's not Truant, because you're not completely free--Aegis can outright mangle you with a strong Shadow Ball if you decide to set up thinking it's gonna KS. It may die, but like I said, it will have done its job. King's Shield is a risk, but in many situations, it's a risk that the Aegislash player is completely free to opt not to take.

 

[Chou Toshio]

People keep saying that Aegi never runs through teams-- but does it really have to?

Did Mega Gar run through teams? Did Genesect? Did 4th gen Wobb? Did 5th gen Deo-A?

No of course not-- and yet these pokes were banned because all it takes is one key kill to decide a game. When you're playing offense, the greatest challenge is to break that first key link in your opponent's defensive core, and the charge speeds up from there.

Often it's not even a kill we're talking about-- sometimes it's just a nice 50-60% chunk of health off of rotom-w that will start a bird sweep. Sometimes that healthy Rotom's wow is the only way your team can deal with Aegi's coverage.

Aegi's not a sweeper, but it's a hell of a wallbreaker, offensive pivot, tank. It can't beat everything, but it can hurt everything-- and it's often a Shadow Ball to the face against key opponents that's all it takes to decide a game.

Offensively it could be any poke that break's the first defensive chain, but it's going to be Aegislash that does it at an absurd frequency because its bulk, power, and coverage means it's good against everything.

Defensively it could be any mon that you use as a fail safe for random sweeper x, but more often enough Aegislash will be another option you got there because it's good against everything.


That's always seemed ridiculous to me, but I guess if you don't think so you don't think so.

I just think it's strange I've never not seen Aegi perform.

 

[Karxrida]

People keep saying that Aegi never runs through teams-- but does it really have to?

Did Mega Gar run through teams? Did Genesect? Did 4th gen Wobb? Did 5th gen Deo-A?

No of course not-- and yet these pokes were banned because all it takes is one key kill to decide a game. When you're playing offense, the greatest challenge is to break that first key link in your opponent's defensive core, and the charge speeds up from there.

Often it's not even a kill we're talking about-- sometimes it's just a nice 50-60% chunk of health off of rotom-w that will start a bird sweep. Sometimes that healthy Rotom's wow is the only way your team can deal with Aegi's coverage.

Aegi's not a sweeper, but it's a hell of a wallbreaker, offensive pivot, tank. It can't beat everything, but it can hurt everything-- and it's often a Shadow Ball to the face against key opponents that's all it takes to decide a game.

Offensively it could be any poke that break's the first defensive chain, but it's going to be Aegislash that does it at an absurd frequency because its bulk, power, and coverage means it's good against everything.

Defensively it could be any mon that you use as a fail safe for random sweeper x, but more often enough Aegislash will be another option you got there because it's good against everything.


That's always seemed ridiculous to me, but I guess if you don't think so you don't think so.

I just think it's strange I've never not seen Aegi perform.

The difference here is that Aegislash cannot guarantee that kill like Mega Gengar, Deo-A, Wobb, or screw your entire team just because you guessed the wrong set like Genesect. There's also the fact that none of those really have reliable checks or soft counters (Shadow Taggers can't be countered, Deo murders everything, Genesect GTFOs) while Aegislash does. As I and many others have stated, there are at least 10+ reliable checks in OU that do something other than deal with Aegislash (and synergize well together so carrying multiple checks is easy and realistic), while you're stuck with shit like Banded Infiltrator Ninjask just to get rid of Mega Gengar after it kills something.

Mega Gengar also invalidates an entire playstyle single-handedly while no single playstyle really benefits from Aegislash's presence more than others.

God I hate repeating myself.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The difference here is that Aegislash cannot guarantee that kill like Mega Gengar, Deo-A, Wobb, or screw your entire team just because you guessed the wrong set like Genesect. There's also the fact that none of those really have reliable checks or soft counters (Shadow Taggers can't be countered, Deo murders everything, Genesect GTFOs) while Aegislash does. As I and many others have stated, there are at least 10+ reliable checks in OU that do something other than deal with Aegislash (and synergize well together so carrying multiple checks is easy and realistic), while you're stuck with shit like Banded Infiltrator Ninjask just to get rid of Mega Gengar after it kills something.

Mega Gengar also invalidates an entire playstyle single-handedly while no single playstyle really benefits from Aegislash's presence more than others.

God I hate repeated myself.

Not being able to do what other banned Pokemon can does not invalidate an argument for a ban.

I have simply invalidated the point about Aegislash not sweeping by pointing out an offensive Pokemon can be broken based on ability to make significant kills or hits (which Aegislash can do).

Meanwhile, you have not invalidated any point I made by assuming Aegi has to be as broken as other ubers in order to be broken. I am saying that what Aegislash can do is concerning enough.

You are free to disagree.

 

[Baharoth]

That's bull.

If Aegi doesn't want to face the "risk" of King Shield, all it has to do is-- not use King's Shield.

The point is that spotting mons who can set up or status on a king's shield is not hard, while the decision to use or not use King's Shield is completely in the hands of the Aegi user.

The "risk" of KS cannot even be called a risk.

It just means that in a situation where any other mon would be screwed, Aegi has the OPTION to take an EDUCATED risk that can give it the chance to win.

In my eyes that's only s plus, and not at all a loss.

Your missing the context of my post. The pro ban side is always arguing how Kingsshield causes risk free 50/50 all the time. I am saying this is wrong because 1. its by far not risk free and 2. because of that its not very common. Most good players will switch out their Aegi if they are up against something like SD Garchomp instead of going for KS, why?

Because its not a 50/50. The risk of giving him a free setup is far bigger than the reward you get for using KS. Ofc the risk can be avoided by simply not using KS but if its not used its even less of a 50/50 dont you think? And yes KS is a plus overall but its not like you can mindlessly use it all the time and expect to get through with it in 50% of the cases which would be the case if it created 50/50.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Joe Average VGC Player, meanwhile, can just breed up a 6IV Honedge in a few hours at most just like any other Pokemon and has no real compelling reason not to do so, because there's little to no opportunity cost involved in using Aegislash. It outclasses every Ghost except Gengar and every defensive Steel except Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Heatran.

How does any of that matter?

It just shows Aegislash is good at what he does, easy to fit on teams, and does its job better than his counter parts. This may come as a surprise, but that doesn't warrant a ban.

 

[Colonel M]

Ill just post what I said +extra.

Though I do not play much of Pokemon anymore I cannot help but think that the absence of Aegislash will, undoubtfully, make the OU metagame a better place. It is extrememly toxic in the metagame due to its great diversity between offensive and defensive sets with little drawback between them. Aegislash's lower Speed is actually a blessing as it helps it abuse its psuedo-720 BST. I dont really care about the 50/50 scenario because it always existed ever since Pokemon was around. The problem is that Aegislash using King's Shield more often than not will be in favor of Aegislash. It isnt even really a 50/50; especially for Pokemon that rely on contact moves to beat Aegislash.

Nevermind how stupidly good offensive Ghost is in Generation 6...

Joe Average VGC Player, meanwhile, can just breed up a 6IV Honedge in a few hours at most just like any other Pokemon and has no real compelling reason not to do so, because there's little to no opportunity cost involved in using Aegislash. It outclasses every Ghost except Gengar and every defensive Steel except Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Heatran.

How does any of that matter?

He forgot to put the Honedge in a Dream Ball.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Your missing the context of my post. The pro ban side is always arguing how Kingsshield causes risk free 50/50 all the time. I am saying this is wrong because 1. its by far not risk free and 2. because of that its not very common. Most good players will switch out their Aegi if they are up against something like SD Garchomp instead of going for KS, why?

Because its not a 50/50. The risk of giving him a free setup is far bigger than the reward you get for using KS. Ofc the risk can be avoided by simply not using KS but if its not used its even less of a 50/50 dont you think? And yes KS is a plus overall but its not like you can mindlessly use it all the time and expect to get through with it in 50% of the cases which would be the case if it created 50/50.

Please stop talking about 50/50s you are completely skewing what the proban side is saying about them. Never has anybody that is legitamately arguing to ban aegislash, said that king's shield causes risk free 50/50s all the time, literally NEVER. So please dont put retarded words in our mouth. All we are saying is that aegislash single handedly causes SOME 50/50s, and this is unique to him for the most part. Look back to all the examples of 50/50s, they are all talking about 4+ pokemon and trying to decide what to do, or what the opponent may switch into. The only thing you could compare this to is sucker punch, but unless its late game you could just switch around that and willo wisp.

You just keep saying that using kings shield gives a setup sweeper an opportunity to setup which therefore makes going for king's shield a bad play, well guess what? Thats exactly why the aegislash user might just go for the king's shield, because the person using a setup sweeper knows king's shield is a bad play. Anyway I dont want to rant anymore, I just want to end with saying "nobody is saying aegislash causes nonstop risk free 50/50s, like you claim we are saying, all we are saying is he is singlehandedly able to cause situations that usually take 3-4 pokemon, SOME of the time. We would just like it to be NONE of the time, since a meta without 50/50s is more competitive." So now my question to you is do you disagree that with aegislash gone there would be less 50/50s?

 

[Subject 18]

All right, I'm seeing a lot of things that should be addressed that haven't been answered to until now. Since voting has already started and a good amount of people have voted some opinions can be changed and those who are undecided can make their decisions before they make their vote. If you have already voted and your opinions change from this post, you can still change your vote by talking to the council members about that.

I've already spoken up about Aegislash in this thread and on PS about my stance on the matter. One thing that I see a lot of people clinging to is this fallacy that Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir will be become so rampant that Offense will dominate the meta and stall/balance won't exist. I can tell you right now this is false for a couple of different reasons. All three of those have more issues to deal with than just Aegislash before they become the "terrors" many of the anti-ban think they will. While all three have great wallbreaking power, in a metagame where offense is dominant, the only one that will potentially dominate is Gardevoir. Mega Medicham is really frail and while it can theoretically beat most Pokemon on offense, what can it switch into? Not only that but most offensive teams have no issues OHKOing it. Mega heracross can come in get a kill then what? With such low speed it's really easy to revenge or force out and against most offensive teams, it's probably not getting another chance to come back in. Trying to justify Aegislash as a means to keeping them down especially when they have been on the rise in a metagame with Aegislash anyway (look at viabiltiy rankings/WCOP games and see how common they are becoming with Aegislash in the meta) is not only a baseless assumption but also false.

People also said that once Aegislash leaves, stall becomes nonexistent because it can't handle all of three of those threats. Did people forget that stall already has a hard time trying to deal with those? Aegislash isn't even used on stall you "counter" them. The only known Aegislash stall team out is was KratosMana's team in his match with dragonuser. That's really the only one. Like CBB said if Heracross, Medicham and Gardevoir really want to get past it, they will. I'm sure someone will say that the suspect ladder was filled with offense and stall was nonexistent. First off, every suspect ladder is like that. People will always use an "easy mode" ladder team to get through it as quickly as possible. So on suspect ladders you will almost always run into HO/Offense and this shouldn't be indicative of what the future meta will look like. In that same vein, there were several stall teams on the ladder that were actually good and were plenty viable.

A lot of people have mentioned that we're trying to build XY into a more desirable metagame. If you haven't read DougJustDoug's post on what a desirable meta should be like, please do, it should give a good idea of what we're aiming for. While people may say that the current XY OU is a fairly desirable metagame, I disagree. Why? If you really look at OU in the last few months (start of WCOP to now), how truly development have we really had? Very little. The last noticeable "shift" you could point to was when Ttar / Exca / Mola became a thing, ever since then nothing has really developed, the meta has just kinda stalled. If you take a look at WCOP replays, it's become more and more apparent that teambuilding is tightening. Teams are becoming more and more similar to each. This isn't a good. In fact, we are beginning to fall into the cycle of BW2, where you basically only play a handful of playstyles and teambuilding is so restricted that every team looks like a variation of someone else's team. You don't believe me? Go take a look at WCOP replays, look at the BW2 games and tell me how much diversity there truly is. Very little. Aegislash can be compared to Rain in BW2; a huge presence that seemingly keeps the tier in a "balance" and made it "more diverse." Keeping Aegislash in the tier won't improve the tier it will only make things worse 2-3 months from now. Teambuilding will become more restricted and the tier will become less diverse.

My point here is while people can say things like "it's not hard to beat", "it's weak to several common types in OU" (which Gr8astard already proved to be false), it still doesn't deny Aegislash's effect on the tier, the ability to force 50/50s, it's "easy mode teambuilding" (similar to Genesect). All of these are adverse and unhealthy effects on the meta. I truly don't think XY OU will ever progress the way it needs to as long as Aegislash is in the tier. It prevents development and affects further suspect testing because Aegislash will always mask the issues that the tier has. There is much more to gain by banning Aegislash then there is by keeping it. What is there to truly gain by keeping Aegislash in the tier? Status quo? Stability? But is all that really worth it? Do people want to fall in the same cycle that BW2 fell into? If not, please vote ban Aegislash. If you want an un-evolving tier with stifled teambuilding vote do not ban. I can't force you to vote a certain way, I can only try to change your mind.

tl;dr: Read the post...

 

[AsynchronousIO]

Because its not a 50/50. The risk of giving him a free setup is far bigger than the reward you get for using KS. Ofc the risk can be avoided by simply not using KS but if its not used its even less of a 50/50 dont you think? And yes KS is a plus overall but its not like you can mindlessly use it all the time and expect to get through with it in 50% of the cases which would be the case if it created 50/50.

I think you're misunderstanding the definition of 50/50 and/or underselling the opportunity cost that comes with beating Aegislash. It is a 50/50 because there is no right move in the situation--both attacking and setting up carry the risk of messing you up big time. Attack? Congratulations, Aegi just ruined your setup sweeper with an Attack drop and can nuke you with a Shadow Ball (or Sacred Sword if DDTar/Gyara) because you're no longer gonna be able to KO at -2. Set up? Eat a stupidly strong Shadow Ball that will, if not killing you, let the next guy if not LO/FB recoil finish you off and ruin your ability to sweep. Zard X is the premier example of this, but this is why physical sweepers that otherwise don't really need EQ are otherwise forced to use it (DDTar, Terrakion, Pinsir) or else risk coming out of the 50/50 game the worse for it.

But of course, the 50/50 argument isn't a reason to ban something on its own--taken in the context of the whole package that is Aegislash, it is a different matter.