Metagame NP: Stage 3: Tunak Tunak Tun

[Molk]

Alright, so Shuckle's been banned for a bit and the meta's settled a little. After looking at community feedback and some of my own experiences, i've decided on the next 2 suspects for this round: Yanmega and Zoroark (despite the banner i have no plans on suspecting Doublade or Hitmonlee). See the paragraphs below in hide tags for some reasoning on why both of them are being suspected (written by Silentverse and New Breed) If you're curious about the general stance on why they're being tested. Feel free to agree/disagree or possibly even respond to the points in the thread (just remain civil). As per usual, the reqs will be 2400 COIL with a B value of 20.0, and the test will end/voting will begin exactly two weeks after this post is made. Sample values below.

GXE N
100 28
90 35
85 40
80 49
75 63
70 90
65 174

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2400)

So, some questions to be answered during this suspect test? Are Yanmega's cleaning/wallbreaking abilities too much for the tier even with the existence of Stealth Rock? Are Zoroark's offensive ability and mindgames too much for the tier to handle? Are there any perfectly viable but currently uncommon ways to get around these Pokemon? How do you tell Zoroark apart from a real Pokemon and play accordingly? On top of that, how do you manage riskvreward when playing against Zoroark?

Now, i know for a fact that these Pokemon are the most controversial suspects/quickbans so far, and that they have more obvious flaws that might prevent them from being bannable (In fact, from my personal experiences using and facing both of these i only think one of these suspects genuinely deserves the banhammer). But remember to remain civil, you can't just go about throwing around personal insults because people disagree with you, be reasonable .-..

here are some imports to some of the most common/best sets that these Pokemon are capable of running, so you guys know what you're dealing with during the test :).

Some sets

Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power Fire / Shadow Ball / Giga Drain

Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- U-Turn

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot

Zoroark @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Trick

Yanmega Reasoning

Yanmega is being suspected because it is undoubtedly one of the strongest and most potent threats in RU at the moment. The problem with Yanmega is that it has two potential sets, both of which are extremely good and threaten multiple playstyles. The Speed Boost set allows Yanmega to turn into offense’s worst nightmare, out pacing just about every non Choice Scarf’d Pokemon at +1 and everything else at +2. This set also has the luxury of being able to run quite a few options in it’s last slot, Giga Drain can be used to let Yanmega breeze past Rhyperior, while also aiding in cancelling out LO recoil. This is usually inferior to Shadow Ball or Hidden Power Fire as both let you get passed Doublade, Escavalier and Magneton respectively. Yanmega does have another string to it’s bow however, with the Choice Specs set turning it from a late game cleaner into a powerful wallbreaker. XY RU is a tier with very few 4x Bug resists, with the best of them being Moltres. This allows Tinted Lens Bug Buzz to be extremely spam able, almost guaranteeing a kill everytime it comes in if the opponent lacks a Registeel or Moltres. Unfortunately most of the Pokemon in the tier that can switch into a Bug Buzz don’t appreciate taking an Air Slash (except for the mighty Bastiodon). To top it all of, XY RU also has one of the best Pokemon to help support Yanmega in removing it’s most reliable counter: Dugtrio. Dugtrio has the ability to trap and kill or severely weaken Registeel, essentially clearing the path for Yanmega against any sort of slow/defensive teams.

Zoroark Reasoning

Zoroark is being suspected for both offensive and support based reasons. Due to Zoroark's incredible offensive stats and very nice Speed tier, which conveniently places Zoroark above a large amount of RU's most relevant threats, in addition to a wide movepool that contains not only powerful STAB attacks such as Knock Off and Sucker Punch, but also a wide array of coverage moves such as Extrasensory, Flamethrower, Low Kick, Grass Knot and Hidden Power, Zoroark is a powerful offensive threat in RU. These qualities are enhanced significantly as well by its ability, Illusion, which allows Zoroark to disguise itself as the last Pokemon in your party. In the hands of a competent player, Zoroark can use this disguise to lure out counters to the Pokemon it is disguised as and OHKO or severely cripple them, oftentimes paving the way for the Pokemon Zoroark disguised itself as to sweep. With the amount of dangerous threats in RU, the ability to lure out and remove the few counters to said dangerous threats makes Zoroark an extremely potent supporting Pokemon, which is a key part of why it is being suspected. However, Zoroark is not just limited to luring out and removing counters for other dangerous threats to sweep; Zoroark itself is perfectly capable of sweeping as well, due to its access to Swords Dance and, to a lesser extent, Nasty Plot. Once again by using Illusion, Zoroark has the ability to quickly gain a set-up opportunity, and due to the sheer power of its STAB attacks and the amount of coverage it can possess, Zoroark can be very difficult to stop once it has a boost. Overall, the combination of Zoroark's offensive capabilities in tandem with Illusion make a Pokemon that the RU community feels deserves to be suspected.

Last of all, the song for this round is Tunak Tunak Tun because i promised Magnemite i'd make this a song 3 rounds ago, a true classic.

Suspect Ladder should be up ASAP

 

[ForgottenOnes]

second. Screw Zoroark (not that bad imo). Fuck Yanmega. Yanmega is fucking too OP

Drudd edit: Fuck drudd

 

[Ranger Mike]

I definitely think that yanmega is broken because there is nothing besides registeel off the top of my head that can switch into the tinted lens set which is imo what really makes yanmega the broken mon that it is. Zoroark is something that i'm really on the fence about I mean sure illusion blahblahblah but the thing cannot take a hit well even if its a resistance. I think that without yanmega and zoroark stall will be a lot more viable which is a plus, allow you to run virizion to a greater extent, and be able to use psychic types more effectively.

 

[Ununhexium]

Third

Fuck yanmega and zoroark

Edit: seismitoad you ninja

 

[ForgottenOnes]

I definitely think that yanmega is broken because there is nothing besides registeel off the top of my head that can switch into the tinted lens set which is imo what really makes yanmega the broken mon that it is. Zoroark is something that i'm really on the fence about I mean sure illusion blahblahblah but the thing cannot take a hit well even if its a resistance. I think that without yanmega and zoroark stall will be a lot more viable which is a plus, allow you to run virizion to a greater extent, and be able to use psychic types more effectively.

Although Tinted Lens set is ridiculous, Speed Boost isn't something to look down upon either. imo both sets can easily sweep a team that doesn't have yanmega counters. Not to mention the occasional Sleep Talk that Yanmega carries to counter Spore/Sleep powder from some of the grass type pokemon in the metagame, yanmega is pretty op :/. Although I love Yanmega, it is way too powerful to not ban :/. On the other hand Zoroark, I mean there are some obvious things that point it out from Illusion, but other than that, Zoroark is pretty hidden until you attack it.

 

[Magnemite]

Will post my thoughts on Zoroark later, I'm not too sure what to think at this point tbh.

Anyway, Yanmega is pretty broken in RU. The only defensive counter to the Tinted Lens set is Registeel, which Yanmega can just U-turn on and then have Dugtrio dispose of it. This makes it a complete nightmare for stall to deal with, and it isn't a slouch against offense either since it's still decently fast and has no real switch-ins. Meanwhile, the Speed Boost set is an absolute nightmare to face for any offensive team, as there is very little that can stop it without being at full health except for Fletchinder, Sucker Punch users, and Magneton (unless it has HP Ground, which isn't all that common but is p decent imo since it can both OHKO Magneton and 2HKO Doublade). While Yanmega does have a nasty 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, there are two great offensive hazard removers in Hitmonlee and Shiftry and one decent one in Kabutops that can help get around this. And to be honest, Yanmega really only needs one switch-in to tear apart weakened teams, so it isn't that big of a deal.

Overall, there are very few options to deal with Yanmega on both offensive and defensive teams alike, many of which Yanmega can get around with Dugtrio support, good coverage moves in its relatively unexplored movepool, or even occasionally (or more than occasionally) flinch hax. Not packing one of these few options will pretty much always leave you in a world of pain should you come up against a Yanmega, and even if you do, Yanmega can still often find a way to beat you.

 

[Shaymin :D]

OK, I guess I'm p. bored so I'll actually not make a shitpost :O

I'll comment on Zoroark, which is the mon I've used and experienced battling the most. Zoroark is a very great mon that is versatile, powerful, and creates mindgames. Something I saw alot in the 2.5 discussion was that "Zoro is not that broken since you can find it out from SR damage!1!11". There are two problems with this. The first one is that there are a lot of pokemon that aren't weak/resist Stealth Rocks, almost if not more pokemon compared to weak/resists are neutral. There's also the fact that the player can decide to not disguise Zoro as a weak/resist mon, and you should to not give yourself away. The second thing is that, even if you do tell Zoro, with SR or something else, you have no idea what set it is. This ties into Zoro's first major advantage, it's versatile af. Mixed, SD, Special Attacker, other obscure set-up move, etc. I know what you're thinking, "But there are other pokemon that have multiple sets, like Emboar, Druddishit, and Yanmega (not best examples but whatever)". Well, then there's Illusion, which creates so many mindgames that fuk up the opponent that it's sickening. Druddigon is a solid counter to Emboar. Yanmega is a solid counter to Registeel. You don't directly counter Zoroark, becuase for all you know, that is a Gligar, or that is a Rotom-C, or that is [insert p much any mon here lol]. And if you mispredict, your team may have already lost. With the mindgames, power, speed, versatility, just plz get this thing out

 

[Ningildo]

Oh, thank you based tier leader.

CL shitposting as usual, I'm just going to voice my opinion regarding the suspects this round while he does:

Zoroark: Oh djeez. Well, obviously, main issue is its frailty and due Illusion's mechanics, it literally can't switch in lest it lose the reason most, if not all pro banners find it too much to handle (hell, unless you show up as a fellow Dark-type mon, switching into a Psychic-type move will obviously indicate it IS Zoro 9.9). It also only works early- to mid-game as hazards SHOULD be up late-game (and the odds of the pokemon it's disguising as having the same HP as it late-game is pretty much zero), making sure it either needs to lead or come in after something faints. That said, it has a really nice speed tier, getting only outpaced by the musketeers and mons that are considered the fastest things you'll see commonly in RU (so stuff like Jolt, Accelgor, Swellow, Cincinno etc) and even then it has Sucker Punch to bypass most of these (bar musketeers). It can go a mixed, physical or special attacker/sweeper/lure/general asshole set, making the mindgames created by Illusion even worse, as stuff like Gurdurr can switch into all Zoroark BAR those using Extrasensory, Hitmonlee can check it if SD Sucker Punch doesn't say hi etc. If this comes across as not picking a side, it's because I can't. I'm on the fence with the fox, as both flaws and strengths are giving good points for both ban and no ban.

Yanmega: Eh. No, really, eh. Yes, it has an unresisted STAB combo with Tinted Lens and Speed Boost make it one of the two faces of late game cleaning (the other being Pedo). But it seems that, in my opinion, the meta is perfectly capable of handling Yanmega. There are more answers to it then just Registeel, like Togetic, Specially Defensive Golbat/Aroma and Lickilicky, two of which don't get trucked by YanTrio (and more yet undiscovered, but prolly niche af). SR weakness is still an issue and while hazard removal exists, do note that Offense generally keeps up the pressure to make this hard if not impossible and can also carry AV mons like Druddigon and Escavalier that check it easy (if you let your check to Yanmega get worn down, you might want to make sure you don't next time if you want to win. Also, as mentioned, it will only show it's ugly af head once a match due SR and stray hits). Priority is also an issue if it's worn down (or, if it's coming from berd, at all times), so Offense doesn't lose that easily if played well. I don't find it broken, as SpecsLens can be handled by Stall (and honestly, if you want to counter this thing outside of Stall 100% of the time, have a good one) and Speed Boost, while great, still needs support in the form of removal of it's counters and random AV mons (I think AV King might actually be able to tank a hit due it's bulkiness 9.9), among others (both of these need hazard removal without a doubt, obviously).

My luck sucks atm, so I'm gonna go get muh reqs at a later date.
EDIT: rip CL shitpost

 

[PowerStyler]

Yanmega is a solid counter to Registeel.

i agree with everything you said but i'm assuming you meant to flip those two around

---
zoroark has way more to it than illusion mindgames, although that is definitely the thing it has going for it over other sweepers. even if you predict that the pokemon you're facing is a zoroark, it could still be one of many sets. the fact that it has two boosting moves with a viable set for each, and can sweep easily. switch sp. def registeel in? enjoy getting one-shot by a +2 low kick. rhyperior? grass knot. aromatisse? trick specs to cripple it. yeah, ik it can't run all 3 sets at once, but the ability to tailor zoroark to fit any sweeping role is a major selling point.

not to mention all of that is assuming you know zoroark is the thing you happen to be facing. if you don't know, you have to essentially predict twice correctly to beat it, while it will sweep you in return if given enough leeway.

i'll post something about yanmega later.

oh and calcs

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 411-486 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rhyperior: 515-606 (118.6 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- nvm didn't even need to calc grass knot after that

obviously staying in is a bad idea, but giving zoroark the potential to boost again is arguably worse, and just shows how lethal this thing can become.

 

[New Breed]

Okay im not usually one to post alot (because im lazy) but I feel like Zoroark is just really bad for the tier. Most people are probably going to talk mainly about illusion which is a part of why Zoroark is being suspected but it also has a few other distinct qualities that imo make it too much for the tier.

Zoroark is easily the most versatile Pokemon in RU, being perfectly capable of running physically based mixed, specially based mixed, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot and Choice Specs. It also has access to moves such as Extrasensory for Fighting types, Hidden Power Ice for Gligar all of which it can use effectively due to its great 105/120 offensive stats. Zoroark also sits in a great speed tier outpacing the majority of RU, this allows for Zoroark to run a +Attack nature on the mixed set and still outpace everything it needs to(Sigilyph gets no usage and Delphox is wrecked by Sucker.. nothing else relevant sits between 307-339) while boosting the power of its moves significantly.

Zoroark is also great at providing team support for a large variety of strong attackers such as Moltres, Delphox, Meloetta, Yanmega etc. All of these Pokemon greatly appreciate the pressure Zoroark provides and can potentially lure out and kill or weaken the very few Pokemon in the tier that can actually check and counter them to pave a way for the Pokemon it's disguised as to sweep. Alot of the times you lose to Zoroark indirectly just because its existence on a team forces you to consider if this Pokemon is actually what you think it is. Yes im aware that for Zoroark to do this you need to have the correct scenario with hazards off the field etc and that is not always going to happen but for me that scenario happens way too often with XY RU having access to some competent hazard removers. I had alot of success with an early stage 1 team that consisted of Defog Gligar/Mixed Hp Ice Zoroark/Scarf Hitmonlee/Specs Meloetta and it actually created a scenario in which Zoroark put my opponent in a position of basically guessing what Pokemon it is multiple times per game.

Overall I think that the extreme versatility, the ability to lure out the very few checks to specific Pokemon and cripple them and the fact that it can heavily skew risk vs reward in your favour make Zoroark far too strong for RU to handle. Anyone that wants my thoughts on Yanmega just read the the paragrpah I wrote in the NP, that pretty much sums up why I think Yanmega is broken. I'll also post some of the Zoroark sets I have had the most success with.

Zoroark Sets

Zoroark @ Life Orb/Blackglasses
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpA / 244 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Grass Knot
- Flamethrower

*Blackglasses can potentially let you bluff mulitple times
*Speed lets you outpace Max Speed base 90's

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpA / 244 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]

*Useful when paired with something like Scarf Hitmonlee or anything else that appreciates the removal of Gligar, this set can also easily sweep teams in a heartbeat.

 

[Bouff]

my ViDeO WaS BeTTeR MoLK!!

Zoroark: This thing.. idk what to think about it, to be honest. it has an obscenely extensive movepool, thanks to access to shit like SD, NP, mix, and even TrickScarf sets, letting it being able to either severely dent (if not outright KO_ pretty much anything not named Aromatisse, Togetic, at +2 with either sets), as well as great offenses. More than that though, the fact that it can disguise itself as...pretty much anything lol, but in particular things that share a somewhat similar movepool to it such as Mega Banette and Emboar, make it a pain in the ass for most teams, offense in particular. however, the fact that it can be somewhat easy to identify it thanks to hazards when disguised as things like Yan and Registeel, as well as the prominence of Aromatisse makes zoro manageable, albeit very, very barely. i think i'd go ban.

Yanmega: lol obviously.... this thing has some of the best offensive abilities in the game, tinted lens and Speed Boost, the former playing a major role in trucking defensive teams not carrying Registeel, Togetic, and Golbat with a Specs set, while the latter checks a wide portion of the offensive meta with a SB set. A core me and Molk have been using on the ladder pretty extensively (SB Yan + CB Duggy + Specs Melo) is basically one of the, if not the best offensive core in the meta. Basically, the few things that counter Yan which were mentioned earlier, are both assmongled by the partners, and can do good amounts of damage to other mons as well. Basically, keeping this thing in the tier is unhealthy, and while you could argue that it keeps things like Reuni and Cress in check, it's very easy to use and requires little support to function (rapid spin support isn't a lot considering lee is one of yan's most common partners and is also the best fucking spinner in the tier smfh).

 

[EonX]

So, it's my turn to talk about these two, right?

Yanmega: This thing is... just.... ugh. Yanmega is stupid strong and you need one of a select few things to actually keeps its Specs set from running all over you. Of those, Registeel and SpDef Aromatisse are easily worn down / outright KOed by CB Dugtrio. Golbat and Togetic are weak to Stealth Rock and easily taken advantage of by the likes of Jolteon, Rhyperior, and Heliolisk. It just so happens that Dugtrio, Rhyeprior, Jolteon, and Heliolisk are all great options to use with Yanmega due to their offensive synergy (and decent defensive synergy as well) Yanmega might need hazard control, but Gligar, Hitmonlee, and Kabutops are all reliable choices for this while having at least some sort of defensive synergy with Yanmega. So, you might be saying "I run an offense team, so I can just outspeed and KO Specs Yanmega. What gives?" Speed Boost, that's what gives. Speed Boost sets are an absolute terror to face for offensive teams as it still retains a lot of power from the Specs set (minus Tinted Lens for resisted hits) while gaining Speed with each passing turn, thus making it impossible to revenge kill outside of priority. Speaking of priority, Yanmega takes priority surprsingly well. 4x resistance to Mach Punch actually forces some Hitmonlee to use Sucker Punch just to keep Yanmega from running through a team. It's neutral to Aqua Jet, so Kabutops needs a good bit of prior damage. Even Zoroark tops out at 69% with a STAB LO +Atk nature Sucker Punch. That's 4 rounds of LO recoil or a SR switch-in just to guaranteed a KO on what is perceived to be a "priority weak" Pokemon. Definitely a powerful threat right now as it can pick apart offense or balance / stall at will depending on the set.

Zoroark: New Breed already covered a lot of Zoroark's strong points. That said, I would also like to bring up Specs Zoroark. It's something I've had a good bit of success using alongside Scarf Emboar in the past and Specs Zoroark in general works well with every Fighting-type, especially Scarf Hitmonlee, since it instantly KOes Doublade with Dark Pulse and does a significant amount to Gligar, Alomomola, Golbat, and Amoonguss (need to predict with Flamethrower / Extrasensory with the latter) all of which are common switch-ins to Fighting-types like Cobalion, Virizion, and Hitmonlee. It's a case of extreme versatility vs. extreme frailty. Zoro can't live many attacks, but if you have the right set for the right situation, the dividends are huge.

 

[Davon]

Yanmega

Yanmega is too good in my opinion. Yanmega has two sets that do two entirely different roles, tinted lens wall breaker and speed boost cleaner. The switch ins to yanmega are very few and most of the switch ins to yanmega can be trapped by dugtrio, and even Magneton in Registeel's case. The speed boost set destroys offensive teams, where offensive teams have to use Fletchinder to check it. And tinted lens destroys anything slower than it, which means it pretty much takes a dump on stall. With yanmega I don't think I've ever felt more constricted in teambuilding. With speed boost, yanmega become impossible to revenge kill outside of fletchinder, yanmega 4x resists the most common priority in the tier and is only weak to ice shard, which is almost non-existent outside of abomasnow and piloswine, and abomasnow gets rekt by yanmega's stabs so you have to sac a mon to bring it in safely. Stealth rock is not enough to keep yanmega in the tier. RU has some great spinners and defoggers that fit well with yanmega synergy wise. I'm leaning towards Ban Yanmega.

An underrated mon that checks yanmega pretty well is Piloswine. I takes 54-69% from Giga drain, but icicle spear + ice shard always takes out yanmega if they have taken life orb recoil once, so pretty much always. It also sets up rocks so yanmega will be crippled if your opponent doesn't spin. Piloswine also takes on dugtrio, so no trapping :]


Zoroark

I use aromatisse alot, so I might be a little more biased towards the anti-ban side, but from when I used zoroark, I'm going to say it's really strong. Having illusion + swords dance/ nasty plot is... Kind of broken. Zoroark creates many 50/50s. Even from the start and if you try to get stealth rocks up to distinguish what zoroark is, there's no telling if zoroark is leading and is going to kill your lead stealth rocker. Zoroark also has really good coverage so it can go physical, special, and mixed. Zoroark really only has 1 true counter, that being aromatisse. I think zoroark is actually pretty manageable. It has a manageable speed, so things like Durant, virizion, cobalion, and offensive whimsicott can check it. But illusion is very complicated, it pretty much means you risk getting setup on and getting swept if you switch, or you stay in sac'ing a mon to what you thought was zoroark. For now, I'm going to say not ban worthy. This may change in the future.

The best way I've found to distinguish zoroark is toxic spikes. Stealth rocks and spikes help, but toxic spikes really help you keep track of zoroark, especially when people try to disguise it as an amoonguss. Stealth rocks are really helpful i case they try to disguise themselves as a hitmonlee or moltres, or any mon that doesn't take 12.5 percent from stealth rock. Spikes are the least helpful out of the three, but they help nonetheless in case they try to disguise themselves as a levitating mon or flying mon I guess.

In terms of underrated pokemon that can check zoroark, Gurdurr is a really great check to zoroarks that lack extrasensory.

 

[ss234]

Gonna post on yanmega because that's the one I've had the most experience with and against.

I'm not 100% sold on yanmega being broken yet tbh. The main pro ban argument is that, with a little bit of support, yanmega rips through p much everything with it's counters being trapped by dug with ease (registeel, aromatisse) or it's counters being sr weak (togetic, golbat). Not entirely sure how the last one applies since yanmega itself is 4x weak to sr and generally we assume that both sides have the same conditions up, but there we go. For this argument, I don't particularly feel like speed boost is why mega is being suspected because it's easy to hard wall, and again having a cleaner 4x weak to sr sux. Not saying it's bad but I srsly doubt this is why it's being suspected considering the above. It doesn't actually truck offensive teams like some have said (as for the core bouffolant posted, if you pair a speed booster with a pokemon that traps a lot of its counters and then with a poke that breaks down the other counters, generally sweeping is quite straightforward anyway), because it gets owned by a number of common offensive threats-druddigon, molktres, doublade, rhyperior and even fucking jolteon can take a bug buzz after rocks and kill with tbolt. Depending on the coverage all check sb yanmega, so yeah sb yanmega, while a big threat to offense because of it's ability, doesn't spell certain disaster as it has a lot of slower checks.

Anyway, back to specs. Yes, yanmega is rlly rlly difficult for stall to switch into and does wreck most stalls with a bit of support. Not gonna lie about that, dugtrio + yanmega is an easy win against teams carrying registeel as their only mega answer. But tbh, these teams are bad and deserve to lose. Stall does have options to deal with yanmega-togetic, golbat, bronzong can sort of check, moltres and lickilicky are probably the best options one has outside of registeel that can deal with yanmega + dug. I'll admit this is a fairly short list, but then delphox has an extremely short list of solid hard counters as well and that's not with any support-delphox + pursuit zoro with spin probably owns stall teams, with pursuiter beating slowking and that's the same sort of support I assume we are giving to yanmega i.e. trapper and hazard remover. Ik that yanmega's counters are much more specialised that those of delphox (mola and slowking are gud in general, stuff like golbat and togetic not so much), but the point still stands that stall does have a number of ways of dealing with yanmega. It also cannot come in on things at all rlly, as any form of status will ruin it completely-even burn can then quite easily be stalled out by things like spdef wishtect spdef aromatisse comfortably. So yeah stall doesn't fall flat and die to mega.

tl;dr yanmega isn't broken imo. Both the sets are very dangerous to different playstyles yes, but that doesn't mean that it's broken. With the speed boost set, it needs a hell of a lot of support compared to other late game cleaners and there are still a lot of answers to it-doublade, rhyperior, bronzong come to mind as safe checks. The specs set also requires a lot of support to be truly dangerous vs. stalls, but again it can be countered. Obviously I recognise that yanmega is a massive threat and tinted lens is indeed a fucking retarded ability, but I feel like the metagame can deal with yanmega atm.

Also if this is a load of garb I'm sry ;;;

 

[mallpal]

yan as a mon itself isn't that hard to handle, the problem as I see it is that if paired w/ duggy+omastar and co., stall p. much is required to run golbat or togetic to not get trucked and that's really stupid lol

 

[Ranger Mike]

yan as a mon itself isn't that hard to handle, the problem as I see it is that if paired w/ duggy+omastar and co., stall p. much is required to run golbat or togetic to not get trucked and that's really stupid lol

Yanmega is incredibly hard to handle and the adding of duggy to the core makes it even harder! I mean for gods sake if only registeel without any prior damamge on it can switch in, that is a giant problem. Speed boost fucks over all offense, tinted lens fucks over stall. DugMega has literally no counter besides togetic and golbat, I mean you could run something like psychic for golbat(lol) so then you only have togeticas counter. The only thing that makes yanmega potentially not broken is that it can only come into rocks thrice which can be remedied by hazard removal of course. Yanmega draws parallels to to tornadus where it's a really really really good pokemon but when paired with dugtrio, it becomes rather game-breaking. (imo)

 

[Hot N Cold]

Yanmega

I dont think that Yanmega is broken at all tbh Tinted Lens Specs set is super spammeable thats true and probably biggest point with Yanmega, pretty strong and doesn't need much prediction but against offensive teams this Yanmega is slower than a lot of mons specially if you're modest. For example check the the viability rankins (top RU threats), Specs set loses against Delphox, Zoroark, Rhyperior (unless Giga Drain and is not the best thing being locked into Giga Drain), Alomomola can Toxic, Protect and switch because Regen, Aromatisse walls Yanmega everytime, same goes with Moltres, Doublade prevents him from spamming Bug Buzz, Sharpedo Protect, Cobalion/Virizion are faster and Stone Edge to kill Yanmega, any Druddi beats Yanmega 1vs1 and AV Druddi checks still Yanmega, Escavalier AV beats Yanmega everytime ETC. The biggest problem is when you're spamming psychic types, lee and you're using shaky Yanmega checks. On the other hand, Speed Boost Yanmega does better vs offensive teams because the extra speed is mandatory against this playstyle, although is weaker and dies faster because Life Orb recoil and when you're facing offensive with Yanmega Speed Boost is harder to remove Stealth Rock from the field, Yanmega Speed Boost kinda reminds me of Sharpedo in BW UU against opposite offensive teams which pretty much needs Stealth Rock up and down the shaky check, then can just sweep straight an entire team lol Offensive presence + Stealth Rock + priorities + offensive checks is usually enough, just dont lose your best checks until Yanmega dies :]

Zoroark

This thing is super broken, the arguments that bring the people about not being broken are the most stupid ever. About how frail is not so relevant (see Deoxys/S in OU) which lacks of any defensive utility and really frail, specially when you have Illusion to hide on any defensive mon to prevent taking hits on the first turns and getting a free kill early game, Illusion is an ability which relies on pure intuition and takes advantage on any game no matter what is the matchup even if you're using 2-3 Zoroark best checks you still are losing against Zoroark because you're hide on a pokemon which totally different counters. and yeah is not easy to detected the true pokemon at least against decent players o: Toxic Spikes argument is just another dumb one, toxic spikes sadly only fits on stall teams and zoroark have nothing to do against stall teams anyways unless is pursuit trap because any stall fits aromatisse + another decent zoroark checks. When you add to Illusion, a great offense versatility almost perfect, one of the best STABs in the game because Dark and Knock Off bluff, very fast and strong. no idea what you more need.

tldr banning zoroark no matters what because broken, yanmega is not broken but centralizing the metagame so probably i'll finish banning the last one too.

 

[Ares]

So when the vote comes around if we do not believe one is broken, can we vote for a ban on one and a not ban on another? For instance, Ban: Yanmega Not Ban: Zoroark. Or do we have to vote ban both or not ban either?

 

[ss234]

You can vote ban on one and not the other Montsegur

 

[pokemonisfun]

how about just banning the tinted lens set?

 

[atomicllamas]

how about just banning the tinted lens set?

Only if you think Tinted Lens Mothim (and everything else with tinted lens!) is broken. You still never answered my question, why is banning Tinted Lens Yanmega and Sticky Web Shuckle okay, but Spikes Froslass "retarded", your words?

 

[MikeDawg]

Everyone already posted everything else. so...

people (myself included) are bitchy af about aegislash's 50/50s. Zoroark is the literal king of 50/50s

• Illusion makes almost every turn a 50/50. Zoro or no zoro? Bluff or no bluff? Am i predicting a bluff, or is he predicting that im predicting a bluff? Bluff or is this just some stupid ass ladder player that makes things more unpredictable because wtf is he doing?
• okay i guess that it is zoroark. now is it special zoroark or physical? is it going to swords dance? i wish i could assess the opportunity cost here, but i dont even know what set it is. Maybe i should switch in aromatisse. wait, is it even zoroark, or is it actually a registeel?
• okay ive decided that it is maybe zoroark, and it is maybe a sd set. yay im a durant im faster and i can ko. but oops sucker punch will kill me. but if he sword dances then he will sweep. but if he sucker punches then ill die. maybe i should use hone claws. but then maybe he'll swords dance. I still don't know if this shit is a zoroark or a registeel
• spoiler alert: it was a registeel the whole time
• does it get confuse ray? i hope so

 

[PokèManiac Livio]

Yanmenga: Not very versatile, has basically two sets, one is a threat for defensive teams, the other literally opens into two parts those offensive. Choice specs tinted lens Yanmega is just ridicolous, not counting Registeel it has basically no counters in the current tier and needs pratically 0 skills, the only thing to do is to click the stab, Air Slash or Bug Buzz that is; Life Orb cleaner is almost impossible to revengekill thanks to speed boost and its typing that allows it to outspeed more or less all the tier and to resist quite well to the most common priority. About his weakness 4x to Rocks, cleaner version needs to enter in field only once to do its job, while Choice specs one has a lot of hazard cleaner in the tier that can help it, so yeah, Yanmega's cleaning/wallbreaking abilities are too much for the tier even with the existence of Stealth Rock and for this reason I m going to vote for the ban.

Zoroark: Here the key-word is unpredictability. Zoroark has not only an infinite number of conceivable sets, it s also almost impossible to know exactily if it's really Zoroark or another pokemon of which took the form; both these reasons with the addition of a movepool as its where you can find the best stab, priority of the tier, Sucker Punch, the best stab of the metagame, Knock Off, and two excellent set-up moves such as Nastly Plot and Swords Dance is a bit too much in my opinion. I agree with the opinion that some of you have expressed according to wich you can definitely tell if it's him or not by the damage that the pokemon has suffered or not from the hazard, however, it is very difficult if the opponent supports it with a hazard cleaner while it is impossible if the opponent plays Zoroark in early game. It obviously deserves a ban imo.

 

[Mew2]

Can someone explain to me why we should ban something because it creates 50/50s?
I see 50/50s all the time in battles and I'll give you some examples:

• Start of the match I see both Jolteon and Drudi on the team preview, will he lead with Jolteon for scouting purposes or with Durdi for early rocks? Ok I predict the Drudi so I lead with Gligar to Toxic him and Defog his rocks. Oops he sends out his Jolteon so do I predict the HP Ice/ Water and switch out or do I predict him to predict me to predict his HP Ice/ Water and stay in on the Volt Switch and E-que? Ok I will play safe and switch out. Dammit he was the Sub Pass variant, now he has a free sub and will batton pass into something, do I predict him to pass it to…. (I think you got my point)
  
  
• I have a CB Digersby at -1 Spe vs opponent's Skarmory with 40% HP; do I predict the Roost and use E-que or do I predict him to predict me to predict his Roost and go for Wild Charge?

• Is that Charizard mega X or Y (sometimes you can predict this by team preview but again it's just a guess) ok I am predicting the X version now is he bulky Wow set or offensive?

• He has both T-tar and Garchomp but who is the mega? Ok I am predicting Mega T-tar because it's more common than Mega Chomp so when he switches into his Chomp I go to my physical wall. Ok now he goes into Chomp so I switch into my Skarm but he Mega evolves and uses Fire Blast knocking me out.

This examples are probably shitty but I hope you understand that 50/50s are caused by almost every versatile pokemon and I don't see why causing them is a reason to ban something (I know that Zoroark's 50/50s are even harder because Zoroark is versatile + Illusion shenanigans) so if someone could answer this for me I would appreciate it :)

I will post my thoughts on Zoroark and Yanmga later

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Zoroark: Cheek is the name of the game

~ Ok, Zoro is a rly rly wierd case for me. Before I sing its praises, I can't stress this enough for you all to take this into consideration:
Even though zoroark forces a ton of 50/50s, the user is also at risk of the same odds.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-127680930
Take our good friend Soulgazer for example. Let's assume the opponent was a good player. Mindset would be: He read the situation, knew that even if he did lose jolteon, it wouldn't even put in that much work versus SG's team, and decided that the Rhyperior lead was a little too obvious for it to actually be a Rhyperior. either that or he just YOLO'd it but idk and it cost soulgazer his mon, his game, and his career etc.

~ With that being said however, these odds are normally stacked in your favor
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-128856638
This was a match I had awhile ago vs zeriloa and I decided to be cheeky and keep in zoroark vs his hitmonlee disguised as a gligar. Making the obvious play, he switched out fearing Gligar's EQ into the "safest" option and paid for his mistakes. The fact that zoro can disguise itself as a ton of crap b/c illusion and usually come out on top adds a new layer of strategy to the game but also gives an eclipsing sense of risk v reward in which the risk of the zoroark player is substantially lower because even if you do get caught as a zoroark, odds are you've already tricked your opponent's counter, or knocked off their item.

only thing holding back zoroark is the fact that it still remains that zoroark will only go as far as it's user is willing to go. It's effectiveness normally comes through risk and it's usually dependant on this versus more offensive teams. but tbh bad players isn't really a good anti-ban argument so blegh bye roark you were really fun 2 use ^_^

MikeDawg made a pretty comical yet accurate portrayal of most players that I've seen's mindsets when they go against a Zoroark...or are they going against a fletchinder? Maybe they're bluffing the doublade, but what if they aren't? you just lost your aromatisse. I'm not denying that zoroark is very fun to use and very rewarding and satisfying when you predict it, but for the overall health of the metagame I'll be voting that big B.A.N

Yanmega: Y'all don't really want it now. BOOM!

~ Yanmega breaks stall in half with the right support i want it gone. Although LO speed boost has so many defensive counters and checks it ain't funny, those being Rotom-Fan, Registeel, Aromatisse, Lickilicky, Doublade, Magneton, etc.; Here's how tinted Specs looks to RU bulky offense, semi-stall, and stall.

Tinted Specs is one of the hardest things to switch into in the tier, and although heavy/hyper offense has relatively little problem with this set, stall kinda cries when they see this set revealed. the only safe, viable switch-ins are golbat & registeel. Lickilicky loses if Bug Buzz gets a Sdef Drop or if air slash flinches too many times (which they often will), aromatisse is in the same boat regarding air slash. Although registeel is a really solid counter, if the user runs U-turn on specsmega they can just trap regi with dugtrio and proceed to rip apart the opposition with it's STAB of choice. There may be other things in the tier that laugh in Stall's face most of the time like Delphox and TauntSD Drapion, but their counters are pretty common and usually a lot more viable than golbat. >.>

LO Speed Boost from what I've seen, is a problem for offense more than defense. Speed boost allows it to outspeed most relevant scarfers, it isn't weak to much priority, and its attacks are strong enough to break through most of what offense has to offer.

tl;dr - Banroark nd Banmega