Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)

[Orphic]

I want you guys to all take a look at this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-147057592
This is a replay of me against a combusken baton pass team (vs volbeatdown) on the ladder. Tagging Quite Quiet because this guy has adapted to the stream of dragon tail's being used since this discussion has opened and is running substitute hence, showing combusken is perfectly capable of adapting to the current meta and overcoming it's counters. Luckily for me, I was running a second phazer which caught him out. However, without being forced to run two phazers just in case I encountered substitute combusken I wouldn't have been able to win. I think it's about time someone posted a replay showing how centralized combusken is making this meta and this replay does just that.

 

[Theriouhh]

I hope Malamar will raise to RU cause whit the Ass Vest or the scarf causes a lot of troubles...Combusken is powerful too whit Bulk Up and Baton pass, good thing it's suspect.

 

[Brawlfest]

I hope Malamar will raise to RU cause whit the Ass Vest or the scarf causes a lot of troubles...Combusken is powerful too whit Bulk Up and Baton pass, good thing it's suspect.

The thing about Malamar is that it has common counters in NU. The first are strong U-Turners, who easily revenge / kill Malamar even with a +1 under its belt. The second are extremely bulky pokemon such as Rhydon or Spiritomb, both of which are extremely common and essentially hard counter Malamar. Simply put, Malamar isn't a horrible pokemon in its own defense, but low speed and easiness to beat as a sweeper makes it unjustifyable as a RU poke imo.

BAN YANMA me and the ladder and raseri discussed this imo time for the yanma suspect
YANMASWAG

 

[glock in my toyota]

I want you guys to all take a look at this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-147057592
This is a replay of me against a combusken baton pass team (vs volbeatdown) on the ladder. Tagging Quite Quiet because this guy has adapted to the stream of dragon tail's being used since this discussion has opened and is running substitute hence, showing combusken is perfectly capable of adapting to the current meta and overcoming it's counters. Luckily for me, I was running a second phazer which caught him out. However, without being forced to run two phazers just in case I encountered substitute combusken I wouldn't have been able to win. I think it's about time someone posted a replay showing how centralized combusken is making this meta and this replay does just that.

Yeah Orphic that was a great match. I think the turning point was Dragalge living the EQ. ;____;
Regardless, I agree with your point in the Substitute issue, stopping Dragon Tail users in their tracks. I love this Busken Passing team, but it's a broken mon. It needs to go.

 

[Hammering Man]

I guess, even if I'm not sure what I should think about banning combusken, I trie to argue against it, cause like it was mentioned before, the pro- ban people are the superior number anyway and there also are arguments against it.
I'm not sure who came up first with this overcentralizing- argument, but I think its a little misleading. Every tier has its overused mons and you have to account for them when you make a team and want to be successful. If you have a team in the current NU- meta, who can't handle plume/ toad, slurpuff or gatr you probably won't do well. You might say now, that there are more things, you can use to check these mons, but I think it also makes a difference if you check/ counter certain mons or a hole team. If you run something, that can handle combusken, you check the hole idea behind the team, all that will be left are a bunch of physicall attackers and a xatu, who can't do much without any cm's under his belt. Also combusken pass is a pretty new concept, the meta didn't have a real chance to adapt for it. Its normal, that if something new and strong comes up, there will be a time, where it dominates. I like how active the guys are, who are in charge with NU, they are trying to ensure that people, who play the tier, have fun. But on the other side, you need to give the people time, to think about possible ways to react. I will be a little bit provoking now, and say, that people seem to get a bit lazy when building a team, pokemon still is a game full of strategy, if you take everything away, that is good enough, that you need to consider it, when building a team, you also make the game less complex.
You can eat me up now, just don't criticize my english too much, its not my first language... :)

 

[Ares]

I guess, even if I'm not sure what I should think about banning combusken, I trie to argue against it, cause like it was mentioned before, the pro- ban people are the superior number anyway and there also are arguments against it.
I'm not sure who came up first with this overcentralizing- argument, but I think its a little misleading. Every tier has its overused mons and you have to account for them when you make a team and want to be successful. If you have a team in the current NU- meta, who can't handle plume/ toad, slurpuff or gatr you probably won't do well. You might say now, that there are more things, you can use to check these mons, but I think it also makes a difference if you check/ counter certain mons or a hole team. If you run something, that can handle combusken, you check the hole idea behind the team, all that will be left are a bunch of physicall attackers and a xatu, who can't do much without any cm's under his belt. Also combusken pass is a pretty new concept, the meta didn't have a real chance to adapt for it. Its normal, that if something new and strong comes up, there will be a time, where it dominates. I like how active the guys are, who are in charge with NU, they are trying to ensure that people, who play the tier, have fun. But on the other side, you need to give the people time, to think about possible ways to react. I will be a little bit provoking now, and say, that people seem to get a bit lazy when building a team, pokemon still is a game full of strategy, if you take everything away, that is good enough, that you need to consider it, when building a team, you also make the game less complex.
You can eat me up now, just don't criticize my english too much, its not my first language... :)

The thing is that if you have built a good team in the first place it will already have accounted for top tier threats like gatr or toad (puff I specifically have to think about) and others, without having to specifically counter them. And the difference in the over centralizing argument is that people don't normally run all of those things but now it's a requirement if you don't want to get beaten by Combusken pass.

 

[Punchshroom]

More of my thoughts on Combusken:

I see much similarity between Combusken and Shuckle; both are very consistent at their jobs, and their support extends to the whole team. Both have good enough bulk to perform their job more than once throughout the match and also allows them to set up easily, generally making it harder to stop them than it is for them to get going. Both Pokemon also promote a form of formulaic teambuilding: Shuckle wants spinblockers and Defog-deterrents as teammates, while Combusken partners usually have a phasing move immunity; considering these partners also benefit from the suspects' support, this makes it so that it can be very difficult to stop them with just one method. While both Pokemon are by no means broken by their lonesome, their consistent and universal supporting capabilities put them a notch above their respective tier.

The Combusken set that is all the rage at the moment is the Bulk Up set, taking advantage of the slightly bulkier meta after Sigilyph's departure. Its typing and Eviolited bulk allow it to setup on a large majority of defensive Pokemon, and occasionally even common offensive ones such as Shiftry, Spiritomb, special Sceptile, and Choice-locked Typhlosion. While I don't doubt that defensive teams will be able to come back from this, it is still likely to shift the meta toward a more offensive direction, and this is where Combusken's other most dangerous trait, aside from consistency, lies: versatility. An offensive meta makes for a frailer metagame, but Combusken has Speed Boost to take advantage of that. While the Bulk Up set has a trickier time setting up against offense, all the flaming chicken has to do is switch to a fast offensive spread with Swords Dance or just "dual STAB Blasts" (special Combusken) to give offense a good run for its money, while still maintaining its Passing prowess. So with its sets threatening both defensive and offensive teams, and even the ability to attack physically or specially, almost any team facing Combusken needs to correctly predict Combusken's set (not easy considering the general similarity of each set's teammates), lest they make a crucial misstep and be too far behind to stop Combusken.

This is not to say Combusken does not have its responses. Haze is usually the best way to stop Combusken from going crazy, since phasing moves can be blocked by passing to immune teammates (Xatu for undamaging phasing, Ghost for Circle Throw, Fairy for Dragon Tail, Steel for Clear Smog; Substitute blocks the last three by itself, while Suction Cups Pokemon stop the former 4 @3@). Even then, due to Combusken's strong offensive capabilities, only a few Haze users can safely stand up to all Combusken sets, namely Qwilfish, Dragalge, Mantine, Lampent, and Dusclops / Dusknoir. Even though these Haze users can stop Combusken well, incorporating Haze into their movesets can be a huge opportunity cost, as it either takes up valuable coverage, consistency, or a niche that can be fulfilled by few other Pokemon. An example for the list of options you don't want to drop would be, for Qwilfish (Spikes, Thunder Wave, Pain Split, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, Poison Jab), Dragalge (Choice Specs, coverage, Toxic Spikes, Dragon Tail, one of its STABs), Mantine (Defog, RestTalk, Air Slash, Toxic), Lampent (coverage, Will-o-Wisp, Pain Split), and Dusclops/Dusknoir (...Spiritomb lol). Considering the relative uselessness of Haze compared to their other options, one can see the 'forced' use of Haze to stop one threat as overcentralisation. Perish Song is an option, but not only does it have a slower effect than Haze, the only Perish Song users that can fend off Combusken are Politoed and Altaria, both of which already have Haze >_> and you generally don't want to use these over other alternatives. Prankster Encore can prevent Combusken from passing any boosts...the only problem being that none of the Pranskter Pokemon can actually switch into an attack.

Conclusion: Aside from its well known consistency, its ability to adapt to the meta with ease while threatening a lot of team archetypes, and the difficulty / impracticality of stopping it has, in my opinion, pushed Combusken just a tad far.

 

[g]

The fact that Combusken can get around most of its counterplays (either with Xatu or through the use of Substitute) is the real gamebreaker here because the only surefire way to stop it is to use Haze and Perish Song and you can't really ask to all teams to run it (ditching better moves like Thunder Wave on Qwilfish, Air Slash on Mantine, Dragon Tail on Dragalge) for obvious reasons. While playing on the ladder against Combusken (which is like every other game on the high end lol) i have to be careful every time i bring in a potential "fodder" Pokemon (which is like 2-3 members of your regular Bulky Offense or Balanced team) and the game becomes a circle of luring Combusken fodder in and out that is extremely advantageus for the Combusken user as it usually has heavy entry hazards support to wear the other team down or will usually come out on top thanks to a misprediction and the fact that some of the top tier threats that can be found on almost any kind of team are "fodder" if they don't run some stupid alternate sets (like Extrasensory Shiftry and Psychic Spiritomb) is just the icying on the cake
In any case i don't really agree with those "overcentralization" arguments because Combusken is stupid no matter how centralizing it is and, as i haven't seen one single legitimate anti ban argument in this thread i think Combusken deserves to be banned.

 

[Brawlfest]

DIE (BAN ME PLEASE)

DOES THIS LOOK LIKE THE FACE OF MERCY TO YOU?!?!?!
4 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 104-126 (32.1 - 39%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 156-186 (48.2 - 57.5%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Poliwrath Circle Throw vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 58-70 (17.9 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 104-126 (32.1 - 39%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 68-80 (21 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 196-232 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dragalge Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 49-58 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
180+ SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 168-200 (52 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 264-312 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 146-174 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Omastar Surf vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 204-242 (63.1 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Just for the record, those are already insane. However, Combusken can easily get a Bulk Up, and with such it can even live the extent of stuff like ARCHEOPS ACROBATICS and RHYDON EQ. This is bullshit how to prevent setup I don't fucking know anymore gg.

 

[Ares]

First off great post Punchshroom you brought up a lot of good points. The biggest one that I think people are ignoring is that Combusken can also run a SD set which can compete really easily in a more offensive meta. Before everyone was running Bulk Up Combusken, I had been running SD Combusken with huge amounts of success. I was able to set up on various things and with only +1 speed and +2 attack bp out into Kangaskhan and sweep. Teams with lots of offensive pressure were a lot harder to set up on I will have to admit and yet all it took was one slip up on their part for Combusken to get in and pass. I would also like to point out that if they brought in something like a choice banded Sawk to put pressure and OHKO Combusken/Kanga I didnt have to pass a SD and +1/2 into Kanga. I could pass out into something else that while it didnt benefit from the SD it countered Sawk and was able to put pressure to force it out. Also slow walls with +2 speed all of a sudden can become offensive, for instance I have swept with a defensive Pelipper before solely because I was able to achieve a 1HKO or a 2HKO because of the fact that I now outsped them from the Speed Boost. Like Galbia said there havent been very many good anti ban arguments and I believe that Punch's post has completely convinced me that Combusken needs to go.

 

[Hammering Man]

Its hard to come up with arguments against a ban, especially if 80 percent of the ladder is abusing it, so that the frustration- level is as high as it can get. Banning a pokemon should still be the last option in my opinion and its very easy to vote for a ban if you are annoyed by something, much easier than to adept to the situation. Normally I like to argue against the current, but combusken really is a pain. But I also feel, that it is maybe too early for such a vote. Like I said, the meta couldn't adapt to it yet. Also I dont see the problem in running haze or something even more gimmicky (bibarel, or maybe psych- up steelix? ^^) on the team, if you play combusken pass 80 percent of the time on the ladder it isn't even a gimmick anymore. I don't play OU a lot, but pretty sure people run hp fire on greninja or fire fang on mawile, just for ferro, even if there are better options. If you argue, that you have to change the most used sets of certain pokemons to adapt to the situation, you speak up against any changes at all.
Still, if I had to vote now, I would also vote for a ban, just because it isn't funny anymore to play NU. I don't want to play in a NU- tier, where all the people use the same team. On another note and I'm aware that it is an other topic, but its a sad sign, that here 90 percent are voting for a ban and still you have to face combusken- pass 8 times out of 10 on the higher ladder (and I asume most of the guys here are on the higher ladder). If you think combusken doesn't belong in this tier, then stop using it, otherwise you loose your authenticity in my opinion.

 

[Brawlfest]

Its hard to come up with arguments against a ban, especially if 80 percent of the ladder is abusing it, so that the frustration- level is as high as it can get. Banning a pokemon should still be the last option in my opinion and its very easy to vote for a ban if you are annoyed by something, much easier than to adept to the situation. Normally I like to argue against the current, but combusken really is a pain. But I also feel, that it is maybe too early for such a vote. Like I said, the meta couldn't adapt to it yet. Also I dont see the problem in running haze or something even more gimmicky (bibarel, or maybe psych- up steelix? ^^) on the team, if you play combusken pass 80 percent of the time on the ladder it isn't even a gimmick anymore. I don't play OU a lot, but pretty sure people run hp fire on greninja or fire fang on mawile, just for ferro, even if there are better options. If you argue, that you have to change the most used sets of certain pokemons to adapt to the situation, you speak up against any changes at all.
Still, if I had to vote now, I would also vote for a ban, just because it isn't funny anymore to play NU. I don't want to play in a NU- tier, where all the people use the same team. On another note and I'm aware that it is an other topic, but its a sad sign, that here 90 percent are voting for a ban and still you have to face combusken- pass 8 times out of 10 on the higher ladder (and I asume most of the guys here are on the higher ladder). If you think combusken doesn't belong in this tier, then stop using it, otherwise you loose your authenticity in my opinion.

Ferrothorn isn't a good example, thats actually a horrible example.

There are tons of pokemon that check Ferrothorn in OU:
- Keldeo
- Charizard X
- Charizard Y
- Talonflame
- Terrakion
- Heatran
etc..

What you are referring to with Greninja running HP Fire is called Baiting. It isn't that OU has a lack of pokemon to beat Ferrothorn, but it makes ferrothorn easier to beat. tl;dr your argument is invalid in this case.

On the other hand, NU simply lacks ways to beat Combusken consistently. Roar and Whirlwind are mitigated by the common partner Xatu. Dragon Tail, Circle Throw, and Clear Smog are all decimated by a simple Substitute. Haze at first glance appears to be an ok option, but the fact that Combusken can simply set up the moment your hazer is dead and therefore sweep your team is still crazy, and still apart from that the fact that every team is forced to run a haze user [detrimental to HO's momentum btw] is what we call centralization.

 

[glock in my toyota]

Combusken isn't even funny anymore. A while ago, in NU, I decided to baton pass a Combusken into a Feraligatr. It worked brokenly well. It was funny at the time and it was a Gimmick. Nobody else that I saw was using it, and it was extremely fun. Needless to say, things have changed. Combusken has become the most broken pokemon in the tier in the matter of about 2 weeks. It has many options to pass into, most prominently Kangaskhan, Feraligatr, and of course, Xatu. Combusken ( or as I'll be referring to it as, DickChick), can perform it's job multiple times and efficiently at that, unlike Gorebyss, who lost the white herb after a single SS. Dickchick can almost always get up a pass, with the meta currently being focused mainly on Bulky Offense, or Balance. DickChick can only prevented from passing by a couple things, like Liepard, boasting Prankster Encore/Taunt, who even then can't risk being annihilated by Flare Blitz or a fighting STAB. The NU tier simply does not have consistent way to beat this thing, due to either its partners or a simple Substitute.

TL;DR: Combusken has evolved from a silly gimmick to something that NU is not prepared for, pls ban.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Too lazy to read everything, but I defeated each Combusken with the simple act of Roaring and Whirlwinding. I'm confused for most of this posts. And Xatu is frail and can't do much with the gained speed.

 

[Ares]

Too lazy to read everything, but I defeated each Combusken with the simple act of Roaring and Whirlwinding. I'm confused for most of this posts. And Xatu is frail and can't do much with the gained speed.

So I would encourage you to read and look through the thread a bit more, and to look at some of the replays people have posted on it. Pretty much why Xatu is so awesome is because of something called Stored Power, which gives you + 20 power for each of the user's stat boosts.

Edit: so pretty much after a standard pass and 1 calm mind into Xatu stored power is a 180bp move at +1 for special attack and STAB, it literally destroys anything that isnt a dark type.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Too lazy to read everything, but I defeated each Combusken with the simple act of Roaring and Whirlwinding. I'm confused for most of this posts. And Xatu is frail and can't do much with the gained speed.

Xatu isnt that frail with defense boost, can set up calm minds to boost up special defense and outspeeds stuff with gained speed

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Schukleking, what you are saying does pretty much any baton pass to Xatu.

Montsegur, I saw the replay in which roar Piloswine *cough* managed to give the player a win. And switching a Dark Type into Xatu doesn't sound bad.

Furthermore, I run offensive power and Taunt on my team. I have believe it or not, Taunt Purugly for its speed, KNock Off Taunt and U-Turn. I bet there are better similar pokemon like that

 

[Ares]

Schukleking, what you are saying does pretty much any baton pass to Xatu.

Montsegur, I saw the replay in which roar Piloswine *cough* managed to give the player a win. And switching a Dark Type into Xatu doesn't sound bad.

Furthermore, I run offensive power and Taunt on my team. I have believe it or not, Taunt Purugly for its speed, KNock Off Taunt and U-Turn. I bet there are better similar pokemon like that

Thats not the replay I was talking about, I was talking about replays of Xatu cleaning up teams. Also yes there are checks to Combusken, and because you have one doesnt mean you should just assume it isnt broken in other styles of play. Not to mention it is easy to wear down something like Purugly, especially if it has LO.

 

[2MN]

I'll admit, I come from fighting games, so I don't fully understand other mindsets behind bans insofar as smogon's system (with fighting games, every single option has to be exhausted for a ban, and there's a chance it could take years for a conclusion), so maybe I'm talking out of my ass here? but I have a question that might be important:

people say that the reason countering combusken doesn't work is xatu, correct? I might have misread, but the things I am seeing here say that it's his magic bounce that makes things like roar a useless option. with that in mind, how well does combusken handle these counters without xatu at their side?

 

[Brawlfest]

I'll admit, I come from fighting games, so I don't fully understand other mindsets behind bans insofar as smogon's system (with fighting games, every single option has to be exhausted for a ban, and there's a chance it could take years for a conclusion), so maybe I'm talking out of my ass here? but I have a question that might be important:

people say that the reason countering combusken doesn't work is xatu, correct? I might have misread, but the things I am seeing here say that it's his magic bounce that makes things like roar a useless option. with that in mind, how well does combusken handle these counters without xatu at their side?

Thats an interesting proposal, although the primary thing is that even without Xatu, Combusken is a relatively good passer. Xatu mitigates Roar and Whirlwind, but even without Xatu in the meta [which would be unfortunate since the broken playstyle is based around combusken], Combusken would still be a potent pokemon due to extreme bulk and utility, and would still limit almost ever playstyle in the meta to have to carry a) phazing or b) stat removing.

Frankly, Combusken doesn't beat as many counters w/out Xatu, but it still would be absurdly difficult to counter for multiple playstyles [Hyper Offense, Weather, Bulky Offense, etc.] which would be forced to run moves detrimental to their momentum, which is unhealthy to a metagame where we want every playstyle to be equally viable and useable.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Soo I just checked the Beta Banlist and Shiftry's now gone. I'm assuming this is already implemented on the ladder

 

[This Is Fearsome]

Soo I just checked the Beta Banlist and Shiftry's now gone. I'm assuming this is already implemented on the ladder

The tiers will be updated after the next reset. Until then Shiftry is still useable in NU

 

[glock in my toyota]

Whelp, I've been laddering since the reset. (We're out of Beta yey!) And I must say it's extremely fun now with Shiftry and Combusken gone. I'm currently sitting at #1 on the ladder, and I got here with relative ease, but all the matches I've played were extremely fun. If you're on the fence about the "new NU" try it out. It's, in my opinion, better than the old NU.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Whelp, I've been laddering since the reset. (We're out of Beta yey!) And I must say it's extremely fun now with Shiftry and Combusken gone. I'm currently sitting at #1 on the ladder, and I got here with relative ease, but all the matches I've played were extremely fun. If you're on the fence about the "new NU" try it out. It's, in my opinion, better than the old NU.

I expect Pawniard to start decreasing in popularity a little given that hard stopping Shiftry was its bigget selling point. However Combusken's not gone though!

yet

 

[glock in my toyota]

I expect Pawniard to start decreasing in popularity a little given that hard stopping Shiftry was its bigget selling point. However Combusken's not gone though!

yet

Oh. I assumed due to the immense backlash and such to BuskPass that it would go away on this reset. Pawniard is significantly less amazing, but still a great mon overall. Rain is ridiculouly threatening right now. I swear, this is like a new meta lol.