Metagame NP: Stage 3: Tunak Tunak Tun

[skies]

Zoroark is, as MikeDawg has pointed at, a 50 / 50 in itself. It creates mind games that are quite literally impossible to play around if not attacking, and even then you have to ask yourself: should I use _____ on this? Is it a Zoroark? For instance it could get paired with Doublade, and the opponent may question with their Hitmonlee: "Is this an obvious Zoroark?", "What if I let it set up?", "but what if it IS a Zoroark?". It creates and manipulates the player. I just don't feel it's healthy, as while it is frail, it has a high Speed and high offenses. Its Knock Off is really insane and it just needs the boot in my opinion. As already stated my many people, I think it needs to be Banned.

"M-m-m-muh Stealth Rock". Before someone brings this up as a counterargument, allow me to address it first off. Any good player with Yanmega will have means to remove Stealth Rock. A lot even have two! It's not as hard as made out to be with Hitmonlee and Gligar being the first two hazard removal means to come to mind. Now that this has been briefly addressed, Yanmega. Nothing can switch into its Specs Tinted Lens set, except for Registeel, and Offensive teams don't often carry it. Its Speed Boost set works great late game. It has the power, Speed, and surprisingly decent defenses, to make it a ban in my opinion. I'm leaning towards Banned on Yanmega.

 

[MikeDawg]

Can someone explain to me why we should ban something because it creates 50/50s?
I see 50/50s all the time in battles and I'll give you some examples:

• Start of the match I see both Jolteon and Drudi on the team preview, will he lead with Jolteon for scouting purposes or with Durdi for early rocks? Ok I predict the Drudi so I lead with Gligar to Toxic him and Defog his rocks. Oops he sends out his Jolteon so do I predict the HP Ice/ Water and switch out or do I predict him to predict me to predict his HP Ice/ Water and stay in on the Volt Switch and E-que? Ok I will play safe and switch out. Dammit he was the Sub Pass variant, now he has a free sub and will batton pass into something, do I predict him to pass it to…. (I think you got my point)
  
  
• I have a CB Digersby at -1 Spe vs opponent's Skarmory with 40% HP; do I predict the Roost and use E-que or do I predict him to predict me to predict his Roost and go for Wild Charge?

• Is that Charizard mega X or Y (sometimes you can predict this by team preview but again it's just a guess) ok I am predicting the X version now is he bulky Wow set or offensive?

• He has both T-tar and Garchomp but who is the mega? Ok I am predicting Mega T-tar because it's more common than Mega Chomp so when he switches into his Chomp I go to my physical wall. Ok now he goes into Chomp so I switch into my Skarm but he Mega evolves and uses Fire Blast knocking me out.

This examples are probably shitty but I hope you understand that 50/50s are caused by almost every versatile pokemon and I don't see why causing them is a reason to ban something (I know that Zoroark's 50/50s are even harder because Zoroark is versatile + Illusion shenanigans) so if someone could answer this for me I would appreciate it :)

I will post my thoughts on Zoroark and Yanmga later

Since this is referring to my post, the key phrase was "everyone already said everything else."

Even in reference to the 50/50s, you yourself noted how Zoroark's 50/50s are "harder."

Also, none of those except for maybe the (odd...) Skarmory one are 50/50s...


That being said, I think that determination over zoro's brokenness will be primarily based on factors closely related to these sorts of indirect characteristics. Yanmega kills everything; everyone has p much decided its fate already, and anything that is to be said by the pro-ban side has been said.

Zoroark is also an incredibly potent sweeper with the sd set in particular being perhaps the most capable in the entire tier. That being said, it has counters/hard checks. Cobalion, Virizion (i believe), Aromatisse, dark-resistant scarfmons, etc (this is assuming that zoro is at +2, making the size of this list much more impressive than you would presume). These are all very common pokemon as well. Defensive and offensive teams have common, reliable, and perfectly viable ways to handle almost any zoro set, making it incredibly potent and top-tier, but imo nothing more.

Then you throw illusion, unpredictability, and 50/50s into the mix, and you find controversy from both support and offensive perspectives. How you weight those things relative to Zoro's position in the meta is what really determines your opinion, as nobody can dispute that zoro is a top-tier mon in and of itself.



Also new thought because it's late: Zoroark has the ability to influence the battle when it is not even in play. The only thing even comparable to this quality is stupid-ass trapmons which should be banned everywhere anyway. Even magic bounce mons are restricted to limiting hazards only.

 

[ss234]

Nothing can switch into its Specs Tinted Lens set, except for Registeel, and Offensive teams don't often carry it.

O_k I've been seeing this a lot and it's completely false, specs yanmega does have counters they are just much more specialised than the counters for standard pokes. Registeel may be the most easy one to slap onto a team, but there are others that are viable even without yanmega.

Hide

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 126-150 (36.7 - 43.7%)-esca survives 2 after rocks, then can either knock off / pursuit or hit mega with iron head to kill after rocks. Not the best counter but a decent answer for offensive teams.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 87-103 (27.7 - 32.8%)-yum, yanmega loses to this.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%)-another counter, takes two with rocks up and will remove with brave bird after rocks damage.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 174-204 (42.8 - 50.2%)-aromatisse will survive after protect 98.8% of the time or smthing.

Mew2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 168-198 (39.6 - 46.6%)-yum

Not a massive list I know, but it's something and these are all viable sets (the golbat one is kinda garb though).​

 

[Mew2]

O_k I've been seeing this a lot and it's completely false, specs yanmega does have counters they are just much more specialised than the counters for standard pokes. Registeel may be the most easy one to slap onto a team, but there are others that are viable even without yanmega.

You forgot my man Lickilicky >:( and I think specially defensive Aromatisse can also switch into SpecsMega if no hazards are up.

 

[Cherub Agent]

You know, if Yanmega is so terrifying for your stall team you can just run Shed Shell on Registeel ._. It has Wish support anyway and can use Rest over Protect since you'll also have a cleric. It's not overcentralization it's a minor adaptation to a threat that completely dismissrs it. Even then it sounds like most of the fault lies with Dugtrio. TBH I'm not convinced either of these two need to be banned. And Unfixable while offensive teams don't carry Registeel, at least half the team will be able to outspeed and kill it

 

[Peef Rimgar]

O_k I've been seeing this a lot and it's completely false, specs yanmega does have counters they are just much more specialised than the counters for standard pokes. Registeel may be the most easy one to slap onto a team, but there are others that are viable even without yanmega.

Hide

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 126-150 (36.7 - 43.7%)-esca survives 2 after rocks, then can either knock off / pursuit or hit mega with iron head to kill after rocks. Not the best counter but a decent answer for offensive teams.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 87-103 (27.7 - 32.8%)-yum, yanmega loses to this.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%)-another counter, takes two with rocks up and will remove with brave bird after rocks damage.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 174-204 (42.8 - 50.2%)-aromatisse will survive after protect 98.8% of the time or smthing.

Not a massive list I know, but it's something and these are all viable sets (the golbat one is kinda garb though).​

fuck yo calcs

Esca is dead as fuck to HP fire, and it's a pretty basic predict to make (correction: literally 2hkoed)

Togetic I'll give you as a counter I suppose, although it's a bit outclassed imo. Plus what does it actually do? Defog it to death?

SpDef Golbat is not good

Stealth Rocks ruin aroma

Basically all but one of those calcs was irrelevant, as seen above. We now have a whopping two counters to something that literally couldn't give two shits about anything else. Other than the above, I really have no new points, but just make sure you can properly define "counter" when referring to yanmega.

 

[ss234]

how is esca an ez hp fire switchin? Specs doesn't even run fucking hp fire, it runs bug buzz, air slash, shadow ball | stalk / u-turn, ask anyone who's even played the meta and they'll tell you that. Also rocks doesn't ruin aromatisse, you have protect so you heal off stealth rock damage ?_? And spdef golbat isn't great but it's not terrible, atomicllamas has used it before and he found it alrite so...

Every one of those survives two bug buzzes after stealth rock, so please don't call people out when you don't actually know the metagame.

 

[Mew2]

Togetic I'll give you as a counter I suppose, although it's a bit outclassed imo. Plus what does it actually do? Defog it to death?

It hits Yanmega with STAB Dazzling Gleam
4 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 114-135 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And if you are a real man Fire Blast:
4 SpA Togetic Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 210-248 (67 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And before you start saying stuff like "but Ancient Power Yanmega" no it doesn't kill Togetic
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 94-112 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 29.4% chance to 3HKO

 

[mallpal]

just realised yanmega doesn't even need dugtrio to eliminate registeel, sub liechi can do it too:
+1 252+ Atk Yanmega Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

it beats sdef togetic and aromatisse as well:
+1 252+ Atk Yanmega Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Togetic: 136-160 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Yanmega Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 232-274 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

physical yanmega confirmed for most viable mon in ru history

 

[Mew2]

just realised yanmega doesn't even need dugtrio to eliminate registeel, sub liechi can do it too:
+1 252+ Atk Yanmega Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

it beats sdef togetic and aromatisse as well:
+1 252+ Atk Yanmega Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Togetic: 136-160 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Yanmega Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 232-274 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

physical yanmega confirmed for most viable mon in ru history

Is this a joke?

 

[Grey Waves]

Is this a joke?

Seeing as he said 'Physical Yanmega confirmed for most viable mon in RU history', yes, I would say it is a joke.

 

[Skankovich]

Doesn't specs tinted lens Sigilyph do the same thing as Yanmega? They're both similarly bulky, Sigi is slightly faster but slightly weaker and it's only 2x weak to rocks. Sigi even has psyshock to make it past Aromatisse and Heat Wave to deal with registeel better, and it even gets past Togetic with psyshock after rocks.

The main thing I guess is that it struggles much more against Cresselia, but they're both very limited in terms of switchins. Also Psychic has immunities, unlike Bug, so it requires some more prediction, but they both put teams in a similar situation.

dem calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 192-226 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Togetic: 141-166 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Golbat: 326-386 (92 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 240-283 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tinted lens doesn't actually come into play in any of these calcs lol, but it makes air slash far harder to switch into for offense at least.

 

[The Immortal]

Ladder is up now. Some random user pm'd me to ask when it is going up. Would have been up sooner if Molk tagged/told me >_>.

 

[New Breed]

hi just wanted to point out that a medicore nu mon being seriously considered as a viable option just goes to show how hard Yanmega is to counter. Similiar to bw ru when Stunfisk was used specifically to beat Honchkrow. Silvershadow234 I don't think anyone has seen an Escavalier since round 1 its usage has been way down as common pokemon in the metagame like Gligar/Moltres easily beat it, plus running 120 sdef ev's on it just so you can switch in and check it once kinda shows you're really stretching it there lol. Aromatisse is the easiest wish pasher in the tier to force out before it heals itself due to Doublade being one of the best and most common pokemon atm. Im also really not sold on Golbat I have tried it and its worn down pretty easily due to Brave Bird and often being forced to choose between Roosting and Defog but it could be a decent check on some teams. Shed Shell Registeel could be viable with rest but that requires heal bell support and your at the mercy of Yanmega if your asleep which 3hko's w/o lefties if your opponent doesnt let you freely heal bell (not too difficult to prevent). A random Knock Off also screws over shed regi and also all nfe mons are really prone to being hit with Knock Off which can put immense pressure on them.

i would love to see some really solid arguments that support Yanmega staying outside of "Togetic switches in not broken"

 

[asterat]

Ladder is up now. Some random user pm'd me to ask when it is going up. Would have been up sooner if Molk tagged/told me >_>.

I'm insulted :<

"random user"

My thoughts are ban Zoroark and not Yanmega. I'll post more reasoning later, but basically Yanmega is a very repetitive and not all that hard to work around.

 

[pokemonisfun]

hi just wanted to point out that a medicore nu mon being seriously considered as a viable option just goes to show how hard Yanmega is to counter. Similiar to bw ru when Stunfisk was used specifically to beat Honchkrow. Silvershadow234 I don't think anyone has seen an Escavalier since round 1 its usage has been way down as common pokemon in the metagame like Gligar/Moltres easily beat it, plus running 120 sdef ev's on it just so you can switch in and check it once kinda shows you're really stretching it there lol. Aromatisse is the easiest wish pasher in the tier to force out before it heals itself due to Doublade being one of the best and most common pokemon atm. Im also really not sold on Golbat I have tried it and its worn down pretty easily due to Brave Bird and often being forced to choose between Roosting and Defog but it could be a decent check on some teams. Shed Shell Registeel could be viable with rest but that requires heal bell support and your at the mercy of Yanmega if your asleep which 3hko's w/o lefties if your opponent doesnt let you freely heal bell (not too difficult to prevent). A random Knock Off also screws over shed regi and also all nfe mons are really prone to being hit with Knock Off which can put immense pressure on them.

i would love to see some really solid arguments that support Yanmega staying outside of "Togetic switches in not broken jajajajajaja xD"

How about this argument: Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega is only threatening to stall teams and slow offensive teams which are incredibly boring to face anyways. Well not really "only" but at least "mainly"

Only if you think Tinted Lens Mothim (and everything else with tinted lens!) is broken. You still never answered my question, why is banning Tinted Lens Yanmega and Sticky Web Shuckle okay, but Spikes Froslass "retarded", your words?

I don't recall you asking that but I do recall saying that somewhere maybe it was on IRC actually hmmm. Regardless after careful consideration my reasoning is indeed completely flawed and I would be happy to propose a Froslass retest with Spikes suspected on Froslass and Shuckle with Sticky Web retested. I'm sort of confused on why you brought this up since abilities are different from moves but now that you mention it Bug Buzz is really the only thing breaking Yanmega so there is that to consider hmmm. I thought Tinted Lens was the more obvious choice though and I don't really get why you would have to ban Mothim too.

Sigh this may be why I still don't have a badge despite obviously deserving (at least) one :(

 

[Ares]

How about this argument: Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega is only threatening to stall teams and slow offensive teams which are incredibly boring to face anyways. Well not really "only" but at least "mainly"


I don't recall you asking that but I do recall saying that somewhere maybe it was on IRC actually hmmm. Regardless after careful consideration my reasoning is indeed completely flawed and I would be happy to propose a Froslass retest with Spikes suspected on Froslass and Shuckle with Sticky Web retested. I'm sort of confused on why you brought this up since abilities are different from moves but now that you mention it Bug Buzz is really the only thing breaking Yanmega so there is that to consider hmmm. I thought Tinted Lens was the more obvious choice though and I don't really get why you would have to ban Mothim too.

Sigh this may be why I still don't have a badge despite obviously deserving (at least) one :(

So the way a ban works is if you ban something like Tinted Lens, it is banned on every pokemon in the tiers below it. For instance that's why attomicllamas was saying is tinted lens mothim broken? No its not, so when you ban an ability/move that is clearly broken on only one pokemon then it will remove all of the abilities/moves from tiers below which can in turn cripple a pokemon's viability. So while Tinted Lens might be the reason that it is pushing Yanmega as a whole to be broken it is not broken on anything else so therefore only Yanmega needs to be banned. It's the same with spikes, you would them to ban spikes as a move it would result in 24 other pokemon in NU and RU being unable to use spikes as a move. Now you might say why not just ban spikes on Froslass, if this were to happen it would cause a precedent where various other pokemon could be multiple tiers, example: I can use Kyogre in OU without drizzle, or in UU without Drizzle and surf. It just begins to make tiering way to complicated than it has to be. I think in some cases it could make sense to do it that way personally, but in a majority of cases it makes no sense whatsoever and is unneeded.

 

[Talpr0ne]

So the way a ban works is if you ban something like Tinted Lens, it is banned on every pokemon in the tiers below it. For instance that's why attomicllamas was saying is tinted lens mothim broken? No its not, so when you ban an ability/move that is clearly broken on only one pokemon then it will remove all of the abilities/moves from tiers below which can in turn cripple a pokemon's viability. So while Tinted Lens might be the reason that it is pushing Yanmega as a whole to be broken it is not broken on anything else so therefore only Yanmega needs to be banned. It's the same with spikes, you would them to ban spikes as a move it would result in 24 other pokemon in NU and RU being unable to use spikes as a move. Now you might say why not just ban spikes on Froslass, if this were to happen it would cause a precedent where various other pokemon could be multiple tiers, example: I can use Kyogre in OU without drizzle, or in UU without Drizzle and surf. It just begins to make tiering way to complicated than it has to be. I think in some cases it could make sense to do it that way personally, but in a majority of cases it makes no sense whatsoever and is unneeded.

This without mentioning that Yanmega is probably borked even with Speed Boost so it won't really resolve anything.

 

[Ares]

This without mentioning that Yanmega is probably borked even with Speed Boost so it won't really resolve anything.

Yeah I've gotten swept way to many times by speed boost Yanmega. I think that while there are some counters to Yanmega like Registeel, things like Uturn on Yanmega pretty much get Registeel or the other respective counter out of the way with trapper Dugtrio. I will post a more detailed post on what I think about Yanmega and Zoro later.

 

[MikeDawg]

I dont get all the hype around Dugtrio. Why eliminate a pokemon when you could use it as a liability?

Ie. Sub Bulk-up Braviary and Sub Calm Mind Meloetta.

In my opinion, sub bulk up braviary is like top 3 for most fearsome sweepers in ru, and meloetta isn't too far behind. the jolteon introduction and shuckle ban reduce their potency a bit, but that isn't saying much given how incredibly dangerous they are regardless.

What can actually switch in to yanmega, especially on defensive teams? Bulky af passive mons. These are so ridiculously easy to set up in the face of registeel, audini (who tanks yanmega all day jsyk), etc., that the opponent is hugely disadvantaged. Both can hit that magic 404 hp number to tank seismic tosses.

Losing 2-6 pokemon to braviary/meloetta is far more incapacitating than losing only registeel itself.

 

[Ares]

I dont get all the hype around Dugtrio. Why eliminate a pokemon when you could use it as a liability?

Ie. Sub Bulk-up Braviary and Sub Calm Mind Meloetta.

In my opinion, sub bulk up braviary is like top 3 for most fearsome sweepers in ru, and meloetta isn't too far behind. the jolteon introduction and shuckle ban reduce their potency a bit, but that isn't saying much given how incredibly dangerous they are regardless.

What can actually switch in to yanmega, especially on defensive teams? Bulky af passive mons. These are so ridiculously easy to set up in the face of registeel, audini (who tanks yanmega all day jsyk), etc., that the opponent is hugely disadvantaged. Both can hit that magic 404 hp number to tank seismic tosses.

Losing 2-6 pokemon to braviary/meloetta is far more incapacitating than losing only registeel itself.

The point of dugtrio is to take out specific threats like Registeel, who once gone, means Yanmega can come in on slower pokemon and something either dies or takes a heavy hit. That being said it isnt the only partner for Choice specs yanmega, like you said there are more threats out there that can take advantage of a mon like Registeel. So while Dugtrio is hyped up (and is really good) it isnt the only thing you have to run.

 

[termi]

how about just banning the tinted lens set?

Man your username fits you to a tee

 

[RufflesPro]

Are Yanmega's cleaning/wallbreaking abilities too much for the tier even with the existence of Stealth Rock?

Yanmega is a big threat to any team, speed boost does immense work vs. HO and the specs tinited lens reks stall. However I need to point out that

Are Zoroark's offensive ability and mindgames too much for the tier to handle?

Yes, there are way too many pokemons that Zoroark extremely benefits from hiding as them, Meleotta and Delphox are example and they are one of the most common pokemons in RU

Are there any perfectly viable but currently uncommon ways to get around these Pokemon?

There is almost no way of stopping a Zoroark, you need to first discover that it's Zoroark then you need to discover what set it is, which is extremely hard and complicated, that with extremely wide movepool it has few, if any, true counters.

How do you tell Zoroark apart from a real Pokemon and play accordingly?

That link is aids, as for the question, I usually just bait Knock off or use Protect if I have it, it certainly helps sometimes but it doesn't when Zoroark disguised as Delphox uses Flamethrower, and baiting a move can also result in losing a pokemon. The only real way to tell apart is by memorizing the damage dealt, if any, to Zoroark.

On top of that, how do you manage riskvreward when playing against Zoroark?

It's always high risk low reward when playing against Zoroark, just having Zoroark in your team preview can give you a considerate amount of advantage.

So, in the end, I'm not too sure about Yanmega, but Zoroark should definitely gtfo asap.

Zoroark's Pros:

• Whenever playing vs. zoroark, you immediately have a 50/50 vs. the opponent with a High risk / Low reward situation where rarely ever you predict it's Zoroark and if you successfully play around it you reward is almost not even worth it as you often lose a considerate amount of health on multiple of pokes
• Even though frail it has an immunity and which it can switch in on.
• Zoroark is extremely versatile, both in moves and in illusion, for moves it can run literally anything, SD/NP/Specs/Mix LO/Sash and many more or different alterations of the set with different coverage moves. Furthermore, it's versatility in illusion is also great, RU provides Zoroark with a ton of commonly used pokemons that benefit Zoroark with Illusion, such as Delphox and Meloetta (again extremely common) and almost any Psychic types which RU is rich with.
• When facing Zoroark you need to confirm which is Zoroark and you also need to confirm what set it's running, 2 extremely hard tasks (Especially early-game) and will often result with the removal of at least 1 pokemon. Unless you have a pokemon dedicated to counter all Zoroark's sets with rocks up which is almost impossible
• Zoroark fucking lags the team preview in battle and makes it all messed up, for example you see 2 delphoxed and their health/status is "currently in play" or just healthy it's just really really annoying
• The wide movepool of Zoroark lets easily beat a large portion of the RU metagame, it has 105/120 offenses and with a great speed stat at 105 which outspeeds the majority of the pokemons in RU. Above all it also has a powerful form of priority.
• Zoroark's illusion is give and take, not only Zoroark but the pokemon Zoroark usually hides in also benefits by confusing the opponent if it's zoroark/actual poke and can take the opportunity to set up and possibly sweep.

Zoroark's Cons:

• Frail
• Status, Rocks, and previous damage on Zoroark or the pokemon Zoroark is hiding as will make it harder for the user to keep Zoroark hidden, but you can still play around it, by switching the last pokemon in the team slot to another pokemon in battle.

One thing I noticed and love to do is make the last pokemon in the team slot (The pokemon that Zoroark hides in) have Volt Switch / U-turn, such as Magneton, these really helps because if anything happened you can change what Zoroark copies in-game much easier than hard switching + it gets significant amount of damage.

I'll post my thoughts on Yanmega later.

 

[JohnOrigins]

Yanmega

Good to see one of the speed boost twins potentially leaving the tier. Yanmega offers so much variety and solidarity in the teams that it is put it, whether it be speed boost or the tinted lens set. Speed boost allows you to clean up weakened teams and sweep, whereas the tinted lens yanmega can break massive holes into teams as the tinted lens ability basically negates weaknesses. The 1st challenge when it comes to facing yanmega is to see if its speed boost or tinted lens. If speed boost then pokemon such as magneton and aromatisse can safely come in and have their way with yanmega usually, but if yanmega has tinted lens and a choice specs, then non eviolite magneton gets ohkoed by bug buzz (depending on HP investment) and aromatisse cannot switch into a hit after SR and hope to take another. I would consider yanmegas main checks and counters too be registeel, doublade, moltres, and aromatisse. AV Eelektross can prove to be a decent switch in as well but thats only because of its item,and if that gets knocked off, gg sir.

Yanmega usually carries Bug Buzz and Air slash as standard, but it also has good enough move pool to help fight against its checks, most commonly giga drain for rhyperior and bulky water. Shadow ball can be used to help compensate for doublade, hp ground can be used for registeel/doublade. Moltres can be dealt with by the rare hp rock but moltres still doesnt appreciate air slash (same goes for aromatisse).

Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega on its own is a threat, but with proper hazard support in the forms of sticky web, stealth rocks, and spikes can just run through teams, and with nothing to reliably take the hit in the tier, its pretty broken. Added in with the fact that air slash can flinch slower opponents and bug buzz can lower special defense stats of pokemon, makes yanmega something you just cannot switch a pokemon into.

LO Speed Boost yanmega cleans up easy late game, if paired in HO with pokemon such as hitmonlee, its speed boost twin sharpedo, doublade and other powerful physical threats, it can break down teams instantly making this set pretty broken as well.

Also the argument of "Yanmega is 4x weak to stealth rocks" is irrelvant, most teams with yanmega will have one of the MANY defoggers/rapid spinners in the tier, also late game, even if SR are up, LO speed boost yanmega will only need 50% HP to be able to sweep through a team. Also wish support (which is very common) can help with rocks damage.

In my opinion, because of the lack of switch ins to yanmega, and its obvious versatility, it needs to leave the RU tier and move back to its 5th gen home of UU.

Zoroark

This suspect test came as a surprise to me, i have never seen or experienced any real problems with zoroark, mostly because i usually run aromatisse which is a pretty strong counter to zoroark, but here it is... being suspected.... all i can say is good to see all the Cresselia checks leaving the tier :D

But in all seriousness, what makes zoroark a good pokemon is its ability illusion, which as we all know allows zoroark to make itself appear to be the last pokemon in the party, this can be very useful for tricking the opponent, although a mind game, can be very effective and win you games, especially early in the game. Illusion loses its real effectiveness late game when status and damage has been spread out across the battlefield, also hazards can limit zoroark to what it can hide itself behind because of variations of damage taken by entry hazards (e.g: cobalion only takes 6% stealth rock entry, whereas zoroark takes 12%).

Its not just zoroarks ability that makes it good, it has decent offensive stats, 105 base attack and 120 base special attack, which means it can run physical, special, or mixed. It also has access to STAB knock off which is very handy in RU to tackle, all the AV mons and stop recovery on the variety of bulky mons that have no reliable form of recovery (e.g. Rhyperior and doublade), it can also learn flamethrower which is great to handle Mega Abomasnow and other bulky bug/grass/steel mons that roam in RU, and it has grass knot to handle rhyperior. But outside of that zoroark offers no real threat, it can run an SD set which has beat me before, but because of the Hitmontriplets and bulky physical defensive walls it can easily be stopped. Zoroark is countered by aromatisse, and is checked by most fighting types in the tier, and can be outsped by +1 yanmega, cincinno, ambipom, heliolisk, cobalion, whimsicott, gale wings fletchinder, bulky mons like drapion, skuntank, gallade can deal with it, bulky attackers such as exploud can live any hit (outside of the rare focus blast) and destroy it in retaliation.

Zoroark is 50% mind games, so in my opinion shouldnt be banned from the RU tier. Although i do think the voting will be close on this one. (unlike the yanmega one where it will definitely be banned)

 

[pokemonisfun]

FYI for all the mind games and 50 50 Zoroark creates there has been talk of something like "well if its a 50 50 so that means the non Zoroark user has an equal chance of winning the match up as well" It is a good talking point since 50 50 makes you immediately think of a fair equal chance but if you consider this from a defensive point of view where you need to counter the non Zoroark user has a hard time. If a Specs Zoroark is disguised as a SD Cobalion what do you expect a defensive team to do? If they send if Aromatisse they are potentially giving a free +2 and possibly even a free KO if the Aromatisse thinks Cobalion using SD was Zoroark using SD and potentially a gamebreaking sweep. If they send in a Gligar (which is a pretty poor Cobalion counter but lets just say so) they are going to be losing more than half of their defoggers health and have a Gligar completely incapable of walling CObalion later if/when it gets the boost. If the defender guesses right and sends in Aromatisse to absorb the Dark Pulse then that is fine Zoroark wil switch out and this scenario will happen again...and again...until you finally guess wrong. The benefit of being right for the defender is much smaller than the benefit of being right for the attacker. Sorry if someone already said something to the effect of this but yeah I am pretty sure it is true.