Yeah I just worded it poorly. I should've just mentioned that regardless of what M-Gyarados does that turn it needs to be weakened for M-Manectric to take it out.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Talonflame's Banded FB does OHKO most variants of Raikou and Thundurus, while Mega Manectric can hit it before it strikes again (unless it Roosts or goes for BB) and drop its Attack. If regular Gyarados switches into SR, it gets in the range of being OHKOed by Mega Manectric's Thunderbolt, while it even outspeeds +1 Mega Gyarados. At +1, Raikou, Zapdos and Thundurus are outpaced.
For now, I'm holding off on moving Mega Manectric up, but when Flying Spam rises in usage, I will bring it up for B+, as it's arguably one of the best Pokémon to deal with the combination. None of OU's main Electric-types can switch in safely on Staraptor, as they're all OHKOed by Double-Edge after SR, ensured if Staraptor is Adamant and Banded. Mega Manectric outpaces Talonflame and can Mega Evolve on both it and Staraptor, assuming both are Banded. Mega Manectric can also live Mega Pinsir's Earthquake, to which Raikou crumbles, and deals with Steel-types more efficiently.
As I've said, I'm still going to wait with nominating Mega Manectric to move up (honestly surprised somebody beat me to the punch), but I still find it to be a really solid answer to Flying Spam and a great Pokémon to fit on Offense and Balance teams. Generally I feel like Raikou and Mega Manectric are on an equal wavelength, just each specializing in different fronts and succeeding where the other one fails. Zapdos I feel is meh against Flying Spam, since it's mauled by Staraptor's Double-Edge like Mega Manectric and Raikou, but unlike them, it's much slower than Talonflame and loses to a double Flare Blitz if switching in. That SR weakness doesn't particularly help.
I was expressing agreement on that statement, my apologies for being unclear.
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No problem. <3
On to Keldeo. I respect your opinion and you're obviously very knowledgable, Jukain, but I have to disagree about S-Rank. Keldeo is almost always Choice-locked and thus very reliant on prediction during the early-game (outside of Scald burns if the hax is with you). Its very easy to force it if it fails to KO something and still needs stuff like Thundurus, Talonflame, and AV Azumarill gone before it can clean late-game. The only real variation in its sets is whether it has HP Flying or Icy Wind, and those are for very different counters and forces you to switch after they've been hit since neither of those are spammable like Hydro Pump, Scald, or sorta-kinda Secret Sword.
Kyuzeth, standard Adamant Talonflame is outsped by those Electrics you mentioned (except I think non-Mega Manectric?), so they're all still good checks/revenge killers.
I agree with you on Keldeo, it should definitely remain A+ for all the reasons stated. It's still one of the best offensive Water-types, but it's far from unstoppable. Don't get me wrong, it's incredibly solid and a Water-type all teams should have an answer to, but it's just not really S-Rank material, as you've said.
Regular Manectric and Zapdos are two Pokémon Talonflame outpaces, but Thundurus-I, Mega Manectric and Raikou do outspeed fireburd. None of them enjoy taking a Flare Blitz, however, and defensive Zapdos is outsped by standard Banded Staraptor, unless it's offensive (and I see no reason to run offensive Zapdos because every other Electric-type does the offensive job better). But I'm getting off-topic. Even then, Mega Manectric's Intimidate is highly useful to soften the hit's impact, so it has the best chances of taking Talonflame's hits (though +1/CB still fucking hurts all of them). As a side note, Megamane is the only one of them to outspeed Mega Aerodactyl and proceeds to OHKO with T-Bolt. Non-AV Raikou don't have the investment or stats to take and Earthquake and are outsped by Mega Aero, while Zapdos and Thundurus-T fall to Stone Edge.
But yeah, that's all I gotta say about the Electric-types for now. Still waiting with the move, I'll get to that when I'll get to that.
I suggest to get Crobat ranked somewhere. I've been using a Taunt/Roost/Superfang/Brave bird set with great success, as it can stop any wall from recovering or setting up hazards. It's a nice alternative to Mew.
I haven't experimented with it much yet, but I would just like to point it out.
I haven't experimented with it much yet, but I would just like to point it out.
Well to be fair a part of the reason it was removed was that it had no way to threaten Aegislash. Now it doesn't have to worry about that, so it theoretically is better than it was. It does seem to be an interesting stallbreaker, but I'm not sure it has an important niche, which is what we've tried to restrict Pokemon we rank too. There are some Pokemon that I think should be ranked, but I think we should wait to see what happens in the next week or so. For reference, Bronzong and Doublade are two mons I've been thinking about.
It was only ranked because it was the fastest halfway decent defogger. And it had a solid matchup against mega lucario.
I think Crobat deserves to be ranked. It's got that incredibly fast Brave Bird, decent bulk, pretty good defensive typing, and useful moves like Super Fang, U-turn, and so on. I used to think I was incredibly smart for using a Hypnosis/U-turn Crobat... I know now that using Hypnosis is shit (although quite a few people will quit on the first turn if Crobat Hypnotizes you) but I also noticed how well it could take hits/revenge kill. I think it belongs maybe somewhere in C-/C.
Slowbro and Amoonguss both wall Keldeo, so without Pursuit support or other Pokemon to wear them down, you have two more hard counters, both great Pokemon on defensive teams. Yeah burns can eventually allow Keldeo to get past Mega Venusaur assuming you have Hidden Power Flying, but to do this you must be able to have other Pokemon able to switch into Mega Venusaur multiple times, which is not always easy for offensive teams, hence the extra support part. You need teammates to reliably check Mega Venusaur for a big duration, big enough duration for Keldeo to eventually overwhelm it (or with the help of other Pokemon, but that's more support). Also, if you want Keldeo to get past Mega Venusaur you want Hidden Power Flying and if you want it to get past Latias and Latios you need Icy Wind, but you can't run both.
About Landorus. SR Landorus is an excellent SR setter, and it needs zero support to perform this role. It can also punch some holes on more offensive teams and check some Pokemon, but this set's main job is not to wallbreaker, so not being able to do so by itself doesn't mean that the set isn't self sufficient at what it does. Calm Mind Landorus can get past Gliscor very easily if it goes for Hidden Power Ice, and Earth Power / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice is fine coverage for stall teams. Of course stall has the option to adapt to this set, but many common stall builds struggle a lot against it, not to mention that Landorus can adapt to the way stall teams change to deal with Landorus, as we saw with SpD Gliscor, which only caused Landorus to start running Hidden Power Ice. Lack of Knock Off doesn't matter on CM Lando's role, which is to fuck up stall teams, and it can still do this easily even without Knock Off.
I won't argue about Mega Charizard X because i am not even 100% sure it should be S rank, which is why i only talked about Thundurus, Mega Mawile, and Landorus.
Basically, Landorus, Mega Mawile, and Thundurus are bigger threats (whenever i face one of those threats i have to play way more carefully than when i face Keldeo) and even more reliable at doing their jobs than Keldeo, and all of them are also useful in basically any matchup, similarly to Keldeo. I get why you want Keldeo for S rank and there is nothing wrong with your reasoning, i just find Keldeo not as threatening as you do (i mean it's a huge threat, but not an S rank threat). And btw, a Pokemon being the most used in big tours doesn't necessarily mean it's one of the best Pokemon in OU (not that it isn't) and deserves to be in S rank, it just means that it's very consistent, takes part in good cores, supports top tier threats, is easy to fit in many builds, and other things i may be forgetting. For example, Tyranitar and Latios are in the top 5 of usage in the WCoP usage stats but i don't see anyone wanting them for S rank.
Fixed.
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I seem like a stupid guy. I know I'm moving up this way too much but this thing hasn't been brought up for a long time, especially with the recent Deoxys bans which made it much easier to play with. I just tried Mega Houndoom (the only mega I haven't used yet) and I faced a standard stall team trying to make you ragequit like all stall teams and Mega Houndoom blasted through that team with a 6-0 after I forced Amoonguss using Nasty Plot on the switch. I then faced another stall team and used it to blast through another stall team and then used it to sweep an offensive team in the Sun after removing Thundurus-I and weakening Keldeo a little. 2 days later, I went onto Pokemon Showdown, and asked people on their opinions on Mega Houndoom.
+Vertex:!data Mega Houndoom
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+Draeden:MegaDoom disppoints me
PythonTheMaster:by zard y
thomas9779:I just don't think it's very good
UBERPYRO:and its very bad
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Atleast my homie here knows what he's talking about.
Laurel: mega houndoom is good
Laurel: like it really is
Day before the Mega Houndoom PS! discussion, I remember seeing an RMT by afterburn in Showcase subforum about Mega Houndoom. I then realized that Mega Houndoom is the most underrated Mega 'mon in the entire history of XY. Sure, I guess Mega Heracross falls under that list, but this thing is even more underrated. I'm going to start putting in a few calcs before explaining why it should be B Rank.
Code:
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 243-286 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 348-411 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 252-297 (70 - 82.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 324-384 (89 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Clefable: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 190-225 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 399-471 (95 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Slowbro, Skarmory, Chesnaught, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Amoonguss all obviously loseYou may say that its bad against offensive teams, but remember your outpacing most of the things bar Greninja and Azumarill will be like the only thing that walls you on those teams. Plus, Taunt is a huge pain for Azumarill because if you hit it on the switch, it can't Belly Drum making the possibility of sweeping you less. Did I say that Belly Drum Azumarill is OHKOed by +2 Fire Blast after 2 SR switch ins?
What else? It survives +2 Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch at OHKOes backa and switches into ZardX's Flare Blitz getting a Flash Fire boost along with Heatran's Lava Plume. This makes it useful against Offensive teams too. The last thing is that it should not be compared to MegaZardY. ZardY doesn't have that speed, Taunt, Flash Fire, Nasty Plot and stall teams carry things for ZardY but not Mega Houndoom. Mega Houndoom also beats Lati's, another thing.
Problems are like speed before MEvo, its taking up the MEvo spot, setting up is hard versus Offensive teams, and gets pinned by Talonflame's Brave Bird, and Azu's Aqua Jet. And is set up bait for MegaDos, but when you give it all the support it needs, it truly shines in the metagame. Mega Houndoom should be bumped up to B Rank, but I'm fine with B-, but there is no way it should be with Mega Absol, Mega Alakazam, Entei (especially), Staraptor, and Alommomola, and lol, its previous C Rank.
I'd like to nominate Landorus-T to make the move up to A+ because it's bulk, power, typing and reliable stealth rock setting make it the best pivot in the tier. Lando can fill multiple roles ranging from extremely bulky pivot to dual dancing sweeper to scarfer and it can do all of them fairly well (although double dance can be hard to use). The pivoting set soft checks Zard X, Mawile, Breloom,Tyranitar, mega pinsir, diggersby and mega Herracross and hard checks/counters Excadrill, Garchomp, mega ttar, dragonite and terrakion. That's a large majority of the A rank physical attackers, and although it can get overwhelmed, it beats most of the physical meta. The scarf set combined intimidate's usefulness with boosted speed using Landorus' already massive attack to more advantage. With Edgequake, u turn and either superpower or hp ice Lando can revenge the majority of the meta, weakening priority by switching in and efficiently revenging or forcing out many sweepers. Landorus-T does have it's faults, and faces competition from Scizor and rotom as a bulky pivot and garchomp and Excadrill as a ground type scarfer. Landorus is more suited to the meta than Scizor and hits harder and is faster than Rotom, and also doesn't need the same investment into defense to be bulky, giving it more freedom and stealth rock at the cost of checking Azu and the birds. As a scarfer Landorus uses intimidate and it's massive attack stat to stand out against garchomp's dual stab and drill's spin. The lack of recovery hurts Landorus and keeps it from being absolute top tier, but it still pivots exceptionally well without recovery and is one of the best pokemon in the meta right now.
On the T-tar and other coverage problems, if you're willing to forego sucker punch you can run either hp fighting or sludge bomb.
Fire/dark is resisted by quite a few top threats such as Azumarill, Keldeo, greninja, megaDos, Terrakion and T-tar (I guess you could throw in infernape, Diancie and maybe hydreigon). Sludge bomb only leaves T-tar while hp fighting leaves Azumarill. Since T-tar is way easier to handle for offensive teams than Azumarill and sludge bomb is 50% more powerful as neutral coverage, sludge bomb is the preferred choice. The last option to hit everything is hp electric (nailing azumarill, keldeo and megaDos mainly) and is only resisted by the extremely rare Hydreigon. Just remember that neutral HP coverage is weaker than resisted fireblast.
It's not like MegaDoom (such a badass name) absolutely needs to get past T-tar. It resists pursuit and can just switch out.
Fire/dark is resisted by quite a few top threats such as Azumarill, Keldeo, greninja, megaDos, Terrakion and T-tar (I guess you could throw in infernape, Diancie and maybe hydreigon). Sludge bomb only leaves T-tar while hp fighting leaves Azumarill. Since T-tar is way easier to handle for offensive teams than Azumarill and sludge bomb is 50% more powerful as neutral coverage, sludge bomb is the preferred choice. The last option to hit everything is hp electric (nailing azumarill, keldeo and megaDos mainly) and is only resisted by the extremely rare Hydreigon. Just remember that neutral HP coverage is weaker than resisted fireblast.
It's not like MegaDoom (such a badass name) absolutely needs to get past T-tar. It resists pursuit and can just switch out.
You're unintentionally telling us why it needs to be C rank. Mega Houndoom requires the sun to function well and without it, the sun is it's blood and without it Houndoom is fairly mediocre. So now you have to run Ninetales which isn't even OU any more or a weird Sunny Day set on a pokemon like Klefki, further hampering your team. You also constantly mention the need for stealth rocks to KO some threats. Sounds like Mega Houndoom fits the description of C Rank pokemon very well: "Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective."
Sure, Mega Houndoom can be effective but it requires so much support that it isn't worthy of a higher rank. C rank feels like a good spot for it.
Tbf, none of the calcs or statements in that post included sun, this is all just with Nasty Plot.
However, what I think that post should mention is Sunny Day houndoom instead of Nasty Plot, which gives you a slightly stronger fire blast for a slightly weaker Dark pulse, but also the huge Solar Beam, which will let you get past azumarill, keldeo, megados and any other water or rock types outside of Tyranitar.
That said dunno if it should move up tbh, it doesn't take a lot of OU priority very well, hindering its sweeping abilities.
I feel like if Mega Houndoom should move up, C+ is good, B- at most. It's really not in the same league as Raikou, Mega Manectric and Mega Aerodactyl, but definitely possesses some traits that make it potent, such as a Dark-type resistance, the ability to set up in defensive Heatran's face thanks to regular Houndoom's Flash Fire, a high 140 Special Attack stat and a fantastic Speed tier of 115. Its priority weakness indeed hurts it and it's reliant on support, but Dark/Fire is good offensive coverage and hits a lot of stuff if coverage is added. As Skankovich has mentioned, Sunny Day Mega Houndoom can use Solar Beam to blast past whatever resists its STAB combination. It's pretty good, but does require a lot of support, so I'd say move Mega Houndoom up to C+/B-.
This nomination is not directly related to Aegislash's ban but it sure benefited from it: Celebi to B-/B.
I personally have been running a set of 252 HP/ 224 SDef/32 Spd set with TWave/BP/Giga Drain (sometimes Psychic)/Recover, and had great success with it up to the 17xx-18xx lately, and some of these calcs reflect personal encounters where Celebi has proven useful.
- It's SDef set is a very solid Pokemon on many offense/balance teams that face problems to many common threats to offense/balance in general, including Keldeo, Thundurus-I, Azumarill, Excadril, Latios, Breloom, Rotom-W etc.
- Thanks to Thunder Wave, it cripples even Greninja (without U-turn) and Medicham, while being able to stall with Recover for a full paralysis or switch to a resist.
- A PDef set easily solo all variants of Azumarill, Medicham, +2 Kabutops, Terrakion, non-sd Garchomp.
- Other than the mentioned 2 sets, Celebi is still incredibly versatile, capable of running SD/NP passing set, NP offense pretty well.
- Unlike other Psychic types, Celebi is capable of escaping Pursuit via Baton Pass so it doesn't auto-lose to Ttar, Scizor, Bisharp.
- To set itself apart from Amoonguss/Venusaur, it has Thunder Wave, Nature Cure, NP/SD, BP, Earth Power, Heal Bell. And above all, it is the only Grass type not to get walled by EVERY other Grass type in OU.
I personally have been running a set of 252 HP/ 224 SDef/32 Spd set with TWave/BP/Giga Drain (sometimes Psychic)/Recover, and had great success with it up to the 17xx-18xx lately, and some of these calcs reflect personal encounters where Celebi has proven useful.
Keldeo: (Celebi wins)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 55% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 212-252 (65.6 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus: (Celebi wins if it lacks Sludge Wave)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 97-115 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Thundurus: (Celebi wins)
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 182-218 (45 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 118-139 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Azumarill: (Celebi wins)
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 159-187 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 102-120 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO
Excadril: (Celebi wins if it lacks SD)
252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 115-136 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO
Venusaur: (Celebi wins with Psychic)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Latios: (Celebi walls Latios and TWaves the switch-in)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Breloom: (LOL)
252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 57.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Manectric: (Celebi wins sometimes)
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 148-176 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 97-115 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja: (Cripples Greninja with TWave)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 242-283 (59.9 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Non-Water): 108-127 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Non-Dark): 129-153 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
Medicham: (Cripples Medicham with TWave, Celebi wins if it lacks Ice/Fire Punch)
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 272-322 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 55% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 212-252 (65.6 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus: (Celebi wins if it lacks Sludge Wave)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 97-115 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Thundurus: (Celebi wins)
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 182-218 (45 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 118-139 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Azumarill: (Celebi wins)
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 159-187 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 102-120 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO
Excadril: (Celebi wins if it lacks SD)
252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 115-136 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO
Venusaur: (Celebi wins with Psychic)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Latios: (Celebi walls Latios and TWaves the switch-in)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Breloom: (LOL)
252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 57.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Manectric: (Celebi wins sometimes)
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 148-176 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 97-115 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja: (Cripples Greninja with TWave)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 242-283 (59.9 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Non-Water): 108-127 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Non-Dark): 129-153 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
Medicham: (Cripples Medicham with TWave, Celebi wins if it lacks Ice/Fire Punch)
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 272-322 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
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I'm sorry but saying that those Landorus sets don't need any support is just 100% wrong. All of these sets need considerably more support than Keldeo to actually work. CM Landorus might be a great wallbreaker but if you're using that, you should really use a Pursuiter, as otherwise against offensive teams that Lando is not very good. They are the kind of team that will run a Lati most often and they will both switch into Lando really easily, Defogging off your Rocks and just hitting stuff hard. SR + Knock Lando is just a bad set. I'm assuming you're dropping Focus Blast because I can't see Lando dropping either Earth Power or Psychic, and dropping Focus Blast leaves you open to half the Defoggers in the tier, in particular Skarmory, Stall's #1 Defogger. Stall is the match up you want your rocks against the most because it's very hard to break without it. If your rocker can pressure their defogger, you will have a much easier time beating them. Running Knock Off on that set would mean you'd need to get some seriously powerful stall killer to beat those teams, and without it, you'll probably need a Pursuiter to help it against Offense, at least if you're running it on an offense of your own. RP Lando not needing any support is just silly. There is a ton of mons you can't cover with that coverage, meaning that you will be forced into running something on your team to give it a chance at sweeping. RP Lando is something your team should be supporting in order for it to be effective because otherwise it's gonna do jackshit in 80% of the games you're gonna play. That doesn't change that Landorus is one of the best Pokemon in the tier and fully deserving of S rank.
You say that Keldeo needs support in order to do work, but I'm not exactly sure what support it needs. It can threaten 99% of the metagame with its basic Specs set which absolutely no playstyle wants to face. Most of its "hard counters" are semi-common mons exclusively seen on Stall (like Slowbro) which is quite frankly not saying much. Keldeo is both exceptionally threatening and helpful to its team thanks to its great typing and stats, which combined makes it an S-rank.
I wouldn't mind Celebi moving up either to be honest, it's proving to be on par with (or even better than) Amoongus as an answer to Keldeo (which, face it, is pretty much the main reason you use an Amoongus) and has the pretty crucial advantages of being infinitely faster, having better mixed bulk, access to Stealth Rock (big plus, gives you a guaranteed productive thing to do with your free turn after taking a Scald or w/e), Heal Bell, Baton Pass to escape Pursuit (and also to NastyPass if you feel that way inclined), T-Wave, and U-Turn which is really good for regaining the initiative on offense/balance.
Natural Cure, while not as good as Regen, still contributes nicely towards dealing with Keldeo easier, since any Scald burns you may pick up will be eliminated (which makes it a lot more reliable than Mega Venu, especially since it can also hold Lefties). It also fully counters Breloom and has some decent coverage options like Earth Power which lets it destroy things like Heatran and Bisharp that think they can come in free of charge. Simply put, it has a useful and unique defensive typing, a great movepool and great stats. B- seems fair for it, because it's easily as good as or better than other things in that rank, like Chesnaut and Rhyperior. Aegislash leaving the tier is the icing on the cake here, and really has made Celebi a lot more viable.
Natural Cure, while not as good as Regen, still contributes nicely towards dealing with Keldeo easier, since any Scald burns you may pick up will be eliminated (which makes it a lot more reliable than Mega Venu, especially since it can also hold Lefties). It also fully counters Breloom and has some decent coverage options like Earth Power which lets it destroy things like Heatran and Bisharp that think they can come in free of charge. Simply put, it has a useful and unique defensive typing, a great movepool and great stats. B- seems fair for it, because it's easily as good as or better than other things in that rank, like Chesnaut and Rhyperior. Aegislash leaving the tier is the icing on the cake here, and really has made Celebi a lot more viable.
I would like to nominate Mega Charizard X for A+. MegaZard X seems to require more support than other S ranked Pokemon thanks to its Stealth Rock weakness. Due to it sitting in an overcrowded Speed Tier, it is also easy to revenge kill. It also lacks some of the versatility other S rank Pokemon have with its two common sets, offensive and defensive, which are pretty easy to determine depending on the team. I can't deny that MegaZard X is a great addition to teams, however, it isn't as easy to slap on to teams as Landorus, Thundurus, and Azumarill. I support Azumarill moving up to S rank.
How do you revenge kill it after it D-Dances?
Idk, no one has really shown good arguments to why Keldeo is S they just talk about how amazing it is but I personally think Keldeo is fine in A+ as it has it's flaws which include difficulty getting past quite several Pokemon so it fits the A+ criteria quite nicely as it still has an amazing speed tier and when it's counters are gone it can be devastating. Another flaw is that it's most powerful move Hydro Pump has a shaky accuracy and sometimes you need it to hit twice to get that 2HKO and the chances to miss just get even higher so yeah you will be sometimes be missing at the worst times possibly costing you the game. There's no doubt Keldeo is amazing but many things can force it out or counter it including Talonflame, Thundurus, Amoonguss, Azumarill, Pinsir, Greninja, Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y, Latios, Latias, Rotom-W, Slowbro, Gothitelle, Sylveon, Starmie, Celebi. Mega Manetric etc.
Scarf Garchomp. Azumarill can survive any attack even at +2 (besides Thunderpunch, which is rare) and retaliate with Play Rough/Aqua Jet. Thundurus can of course do its magic. And if slightly weakened from SR or whatever Talonflame has a pretty easy time.
Got that but 4 mons. 3 of which can RK almost anything. He was saying because of its bad speed tier it gets RKed easily.
Gonna go down these one by one
Stealth Rock: Pack a Rapid Spinner/Defogger, which most good teams should have. Not really an issue.
Easy to revenge kill: and you don't explain how, maybe because it isn't. Besides a few things like Scarfchomp and Azumarill.
Overcrowded speed tier: Dragon Dance exists.
Lack of versatility: Versatile =\= good. Otherwise Mew would be Ubers. Also MMawile has like 2 sets. SD Sweeper and SubPunch with little variations on each. Just sayin.
Isn't as easy to slap on teams: Care to explain why? No? Okay then.
The main problem with this that there's little explanation of your reasoning. Which makes it way easier for me to destroy your arguments. And welcome to Smogon!
Your list is inaccurate mainly because precious few of those can actually switch in to a Specs with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Scald and Icy Wind
a) Talonflame - cannot switch in if SR is up:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 137-162 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yes, a healthy Talonflame can RK Keldeo, but considering Talon can't actually switch into it, it's a shaky check
b) Thundurus - again, cannot switch in,
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 322-381 (107.3 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
c) Pinsir - can't switch in
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 292-345 (107.7 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
d) Greninja - can't switch in(calc not needed)
e) Mega Charizard Y:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 236-278 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just how is Mega Char Y supposed to be countering(or even checking) Keldeo?
f) Latios and Latias
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
A good predict beats the Lati twins (although tbh Latias needs SR up or some prior damage, but that's not too hard)
g) Rotom-W
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
No way it's switching in either
h) Gothitelle
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 247-292 (82 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Again, Gothitelle switching in?(Albeit Gothi mostly comes in after Keldeo makes a kill, but no good player will break with Keldeo while Gothi's alive)
i) Mega Manectric:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 321-378 (114.2 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So just how many of Keldeo's supposed checks or counters want to actually switch in? Precious few.
Keldeo needs little team support and easily butchers a large portion of the metagame - contrary to what some have said, it does not need Rain to sweep. Keldeo for S-Rank.
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