Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

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I disagree with Sceptile moving up. While it's a great check to Feraligatr, it's hardly good at anything this gen it seems. They took away its Flying Gem, which pretty much invalidates the SD set entirely because you can't make use of Unburden or Acrobatics (unless you go itemless, which is just bad). They even nerfed Leaf Storm and Hidden Power to rub it in, two of the few usable moves Sceptile has access too. That brings me to its awful movepool. Grass is not great offensively as we all know. But Sceptile has pretty much nothing. Leaf Storm, Focus Blast, Hidden Power and Giga Drain and that's where its special movepool stops. Even with LO HP Ice you don't 2HKO Vileplume if you predict the switch in, which just shows how bad its coverage is. The only good set right now is Sub + 3 attacks which has okay coverage and takes advantage of switches, but that's not enough for A rank imo because it lacks the raw SpAtk and base power on its moves (Giga Drain and Hidden Power) to do enough damage.


Weezing on the other hand could very well move up to B or even B+. It's one of the best physical walls in the tier, taking on even the likes of Belly Drum Slurpuff, countering Combusken and Gurdurr with Clear Smog and generally spreading burns on everything. It's a hard stop to some other dangerous threats atm like Klinklang, Kangaskhan and Tauros, it only has one weakness being Psychic which is relatively uncommon in NU, it's immune to Spikes and neutral to SR meaning it requires very little support to be effective. You can pair it up with any special wall and Weezing will do great. It's not too bad offensively for a wall either. STAB Sludge Bomb and Fire Blast have great neutral coverage and hit for pretty good damage with no drawbacks.
 
Hey guys, this is my first forum post, so I'm gonna try to add a replacement for Shiftry in the S-Rank and see if some of you agree.

Feraligatr to S - Feraligatr is that type of Pokemon where as long as it's not in an awful situation there is little risk involved. Swords Dance + Aqua Jet can 2HKO almost any offensive pokemon while Waterfall and Superpower take care of walls such as Regirock, Weezing, and physical Probopass. Not only that, but it can surprise teams with Choice Band/Scarf Aqua Jet/Waterfall. Even Granbull can't stop its sweep because of its base 100 Defense stat and satisfactory mono-water typing. The only issue is perhaps its special bulk, but reliable priority means it doesn't have to worry about that. And if you're really worried about Sceptile and the like, there's Dragon Dance. (Feraligatr outspeeds Sceptile after +1 and takes care of it with Ice Punch). So I can definitely see Feraligatr moving up to S Rank.

252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 204-242 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Probopass: 530-629 (163.5 - 194.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
 

Punchshroom

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to A
Reasoning: Granbull had a buff to it. With it being fairy type, a rip-apart STAB in play rough, and coverage in earthquake, expect this thing to wreck. It's Ha, rattled, made a psychic type a ideal partner for it, to bait extra speed. You run a choice scarf than can outspeed a plethora of the tier. There is no reason he should be stuck B+.
For the record, speedy Granbull should hardly be considered: it sacrifices its good bulk and ease in switching in with Intimidate, and even with +1 Granbull is still outsped by positive base 95s, which is quite sad. Not to mention of the moves that activate Rattled, Knock Off denies Granbull both the Scarf and Rattled boost, Bug moves are fairly rare, and beating Mismagius is not a noteworthy feat by any means. That said, Granbull's power and coverage is quite threatening even when running a defensive set (in a similar vein to Vileplume), the main reason it isn't in A- atm is its lack of reliable recovery, and using RestTalk means it has to give up coverage or support moves like Earthquake / Fire Punch, Thunder Wave or Roar. A Choice Band set seems plausible on Granbull too, but I've yet to test it out in practice.
 

Orphic

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it moved up to RU in usage this month.

additionally, in regards to "i don't think anything is good enough to be S-Rank", i believe there is a debate to be had (and we probably should have). i am currently firmly of the opinion that we should and do have top dogs in our tier - i believe we have Pokemon that are distinctly and consistently the best Pokemon to choose for your team, given the option, and that those Pokemon should comprise our S-Rank. i don't know if we should have to adjust our S-Rank description to fit the qualifications our "best" Pokemon have, or if we're simply being too picky when discussing them, but Pokemon like Feraligatr and Spiritomb IMO are very clearly "top dogs" and literally some of the very best options you can pick for your team. they're on the verge of not requiring much support if any at all and have minimal opportunity cost by putting them on your team, and are almost unanimously the best Pokemon we have.

why should our top dogs be sitting anywhere but S? some bulky grasses like Vileplume (mind you, they were made popular in huge part by Feraligatr) supposedly keep Feraligatr outside of S-Rank range, but he even has the ability to push through them with variants on sets. there are some obstacles that need to be cleared, but if you're looking for the most consistent cleaner in XY NU your very first thought is probably or should be SD Feraligatr. why is it only A+ if it's so consistently good, even taking into account the fact it has a number of plausible answers?

idk, but having Pokemon who can deal with our S-Rank threats sounds like it'd be a pretty okay metagame to me. they shouldn't be unbeatable...

(nothing at brawlfest's post in particular, this is a point i'd have liked to make before too)

I mentioned this to Zebraiken on PS already not long ago but the few checks in NU to gurdurr make it S rank in my opinion. Or at least A+, but not B+ as I believe it is right now. With his ability to set up one or two bulk up's on most things in the tier and then clean up against almost all teams that don't have a fairy type is unbelievable. What I think clinches this is the complete consistency in which you can pull this off with gurdurr. This calc really epitomizes gurdurr's brilliance to me in that you can revenge kill a +2 non life orb Feraligatr by setting up a bulk up turn one and drain punching to death.
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 189-223 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 127-150 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 174-205 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Only a small bit of support to deal with granbull, slurpuff and even weezing (although gurdurr can beat this 1 on 1 at times) is required and gurdurr can pull off either a sweep or cause a large amount of damage to the opposing team that they simply cannot recover from.
Some other useful logs:
+2 252+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 116-140 (31 - 37.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 110-130 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
At +2 gurdurr does almost the same amount to granbull with a drain punch as granbull does with a play rough.

You say our S rank mons shouldn't be unbeatable and I agree, but gurdurr is pretty damn hard to take down and usually takes more than one hit from pretty much any mon even super effective hit's aren't guaranteed to bring him down.
252 SpA Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 312-368 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 242-288 (64.7 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I'd like to voice my support for a few, and nominate a few of my own.
Combusken:
A+ ---> S
Combusken is literally, to put it in the nicest way possible, fucking insane. I was 'that guy' who looked at it and said 'Combusken? Suspected? In A+? The hell?', but after testing it for a while and reading a ton of posts about it I see now how truly wrong I could be. Combusken can pass to practically anything, it's extremely easy to use and it comes at almost no opportunity cost. The support it requires is... a teammate to receive the Baton Pass? This could be Granbull, Xatu, Feraligatr, and really anything and the recipient will most likely enjoy it. It has surprisingly decent bulk with Eviolite and a quite good typing. The icing on the cake really is Speed Boost. Speed Boost acquires boosts without taking up a turn and just slowly accumulates, which is what makes it so crazy. It really does fit the description of an S Rank Pokemon in my opinion.

Slurpuff:
A+ ---> S
Slurpuff is really insane as well. Great typing, versatile, and can run over teams if given the chance. I was really opposed to it at the beginning of its arrival to the tier, wanting it to stay A+, but now I really think it should move up. The interesting thing about Slurpuff is that it absorbs Knock Off in a way better than most, as it can abuse it by itself and also being resistant to it. It can setup easier than I gave it credit it for, it pressures the opponent into switching to a counter and I think it does deserve S Rank. Definitely supporting this for these reasons and the reasons others have said as well.

Feraligatr:
A+ ---> S
Feraligatr is the prime candidate for S Rank, if anything else. It is quite threatening at +2 and its Waterfalls are outrageous. It too is another great partner for Combusken and can walk over unprepared teams. Even prepared teams can be wrecked if Feraligatr by its coverage options including, but not limited too, Ice Punch / Return / Superpower. Of course it can't run all of these, but depending on the moveset certain 'checks' no longer are checks. It has ways to get around supposed counters, has a nice typing, raw power and bulk and a boosting move (along with STAB priority). All of this makes it an S Rank threat in my eyes.

Pyroar:
A- ---> A
I know this is quite random to the current discussion, but so are my next two suggestions lol, please bare with me! Anyways, Pyroar is really good. At least from my experiences it is quite good. It has a cool typing which resists Ghost / Fairy which is always neat, a high base Speed and Special Attack. Its movepool isn't that amazing, but it has all the tools it needs really. I really don't think that Dragalge is on par with Pyroar, and that Pyroar is on par with Spiritomb. However, it shouldn't go any higher than A, or any lower, as it has its flaws such as a sparse movepool, a Stealth Rock weakness, common weaknesses in general, and a lack of real bulk. But, I do think it deserves a slight nudge upwards.

Ariados:
C ---> C+
I know this is extremely random and all, but I really do admire Ariados. It has access to the rare move Sticky Web, which can be huge for some teams. It has nice resistances to Fighting-, Fairy-, and Grass-type moves that can come in handy, so it does provide a bit of synergy to its team. What I especially love about it is that it has access to a couple of intriguing moves. The first being Toxic Spikes, another rare move. Sucker Punch is another, being very useful to pick off some foes. Finally, my favorite: Megahorn. A newfound asset, Megahorn is a solid STAB move thats power goes insane in Swarm range (and trust me, it gets there often). It's still quite slow, not very bulky, and set up on quite easily, but I do feel a promotion is in order.

Mightyena:
C- ---> C / C+
Mightyena is an often overlooked Pokemon and it's really not hard to see why. Slow, not bulky, average attack, small movepool, nothing special, right? Wrong. It boasts a nice ability in Moxie along with powerful STAB moves in Crunch and even a priority move in Sucker Punch. It has a small coverage option in Play Rough and Fire Fang, which is actually quite good. It's a physical attacker that breaks down Ferroseed, which is cool. It can become steam rolling and actually pack some power. It still has a lot of issues, but it has many positive qualities and I think it deserves a bump to C or even C+, the latter is stretching it a bit, I'll admit.
 
I'd like to voice my support for a few, and nominate a few of my own.

Mightyena:
C- ---> C / C+
Mightyena is an often overlooked Pokemon and it's really not hard to see why. Slow, not bulky, average attack, small movepool, nothing special, right? Wrong. It boasts a nice ability in Moxie along with powerful STAB moves in Crunch and even a priority move in Sucker Punch. It has a small coverage option in Play Rough and Fire Fang, which is actually quite good. It's a physical attacker that breaks down Ferroseed, which is cool. It can become steam rolling and actually pack some power. It still has a lot of issues, but it has many positive qualities and I think it deserves a bump to C or even C+, the latter is stretching it a bit, I'll admit.
Just to be an asshole

Literally best case scenario where you're running adamant LO and killed something

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 244-291 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You won with hazards

252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 166-198 (56.8 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mightyena Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 146-177 (50 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (131 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mightyena: 109-130 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (119 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mightyena: 100-118 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Without a boost it cant even kill without full hazards, and takes almost 70% back after LO/Iron barbs/Gyro ball. You essentially kill yourself factoring in round 2 of LO+Barbs

so like, I mean you kill it, but you also suicide unless its at the point where they let you kill two things and you're sweeping them

Mightyena is cool and all but its no different than anything else than can learn fire punch or whatever
 

Blast

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I mentioned this to Zebraiken on PS already not long ago but the few checks in NU to gurdurr make it S rank in my opinion. Or at least A+, but not B+ as I believe it is right now. With his ability to set up one or two bulk up's on most things in the tier and then clean up against almost all teams that don't have a fairy type is unbelievable. What I think clinches this is the complete consistency in which you can pull this off with gurdurr. This calc really epitomizes gurdurr's brilliance to me in that you can revenge kill a +2 non life orb Feraligatr by setting up a bulk up turn one and drain punching to death.
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 189-223 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 127-150 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 174-205 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Only a small bit of support to deal with granbull, slurpuff and even weezing (although gurdurr can beat this 1 on 1 at times) is required and gurdurr can pull off either a sweep or cause a large amount of damage to the opposing team that they simply cannot recover from.
Some other useful logs:
+2 252+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 116-140 (31 - 37.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 110-130 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
At +2 gurdurr does almost the same amount to granbull with a drain punch as granbull does with a play rough.

You say our S rank mons shouldn't be unbeatable and I agree, but gurdurr is pretty damn hard to take down and usually takes more than one hit from pretty much any mon even super effective hit's aren't guaranteed to bring him down.
252 SpA Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 312-368 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 242-288 (64.7 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gurdurr is far from S. You're really, really overselling how easy it is for Gurdurr to obtain boosts; it's actually very easy to overwhelm in practice due to its overreliance on Eviolite and its own STAB for recovery. The former is rather unfortunate particularly in this meta because Knock Off and Spikes are everywhere, as it means it can't even switch in on half the stuff it's supposed to check (Liepard, Pawniard, even Audino potentially) without losing its bulk, and Spikes chip away at it really fast because it doesn't even have Leftovers (only reason Combusken gets away with this is because of Speed Boost and the fact that it's not meant to sweep itself). Meanwhile reliance on Drain Punch for recovery is bad because it fails to recover much health against the stuff switching into it (i.e. bulky Fighting resists), which makes it easy to whittle it down as it can't recover as much damage as it's been taking and lacks very many useful resistances. That's not even to mention the amount of stuff that can still check it even ~if~ it gets a boost: Vileplume, Garbodor, Qwilfish, pretty much every Fairy-type, as well as offensive checks that can RK you like Mesprit, Xatu, and Slurpuff (and if you get your Eviolite Knocked Off, pretty much any strong special attacker that can live a boosted Mach Punch beats you).

And those calcs don't even show anything really. +2 Gatr does 50% minimum with Waterfall then as Gurdurr boosts it 2HKOes with two more Waterfalls while Gurdurr can't OHKO back. How does that prove anything? Tomb is irrelevant because it's setup fodder and staying in with it is foolish to begin with, and while that Granbull calc sounds impressive on paper in practice Granbull will still be wearing you down since you can't recover much from Drain Punch and is bound to crit you if you stay in for too long (not to mention the possibility of running Roar or something).

I think Gurdurr is fine in B+ but I could potentially see it in A- because Mach Punch is pretty useful and Guts makes it a decent status absorber, but I don't think it should be any higher than that.
 
Combusken for S rank. Let's be honest here, even with Shiftry gone the support this thing gives is ridiculous. Extremely easy to pull of and sweep with, able to set up tons of things, including things that normally deal with fire types. It's even being suspected atm. Being able to pass attack, defense and speed boosts all in one turn while setting up a a large portion of the tier, it's just insane how good this thing is as a passer.

Slurpuff for S rank.
Ah, Slurpuff. Where to begin? It's one of, if not the most versatile pokemon in the tier, having many viable sets and options. Unburden allows this thing to easily get to a point where it outspeeds all but a few things, which in combination with things like Calm Mind, Belly Drum, and Cotton Guard in it's arsenal, allows it to pull off extremely threatening sweeper sets. A solid special movepool featuring things like surf, flamethrower, psychic, and more is nothing to laugh at either. Add in that it also has the amazing fairy typing, allowing it to set up on a lot of dark, dragon, and fighting type pokemon, including such notable threats like as Sawk and Gurdurr, unless they have the quite rare poison jab(and aren't locked into another move(sawk)). Plus, it also has the capability to fulfill a cleric roll and be one of the few decent wish passers in the tier, along with being the one who's not weak to fighting. While it may not look the most threatening at the first glance to it's stats, it's definitely one of the tier's biggest threats.

Weezing to B+. One of the best physical walls in the tier, with a solid defensive typing and abillity giving it only one weakness, to a mostly special attacking type. (And mold breaker eq, but w/e) It checks/counters a lot of huge threats and prevalent things in the tier, such as Sawk(and counters if sturdy), Primeape, Klinklang, Feraligatr, Bellly Drum Slurpuff, standard Spiritomb, Ferroseed, Archeops, Hariyama, Barbaracle, Poliwrath, Steelix, Scyther, the list just goes on and on.
With solid support moves such as Will-o-Wisp, Toxic Spikes, and Haze, access to Pain Split and Black Sludge recovery, and flamethrower coverage to help beat quite a few Steel Types,(Ferroseed, Steelix, Klinklang, Pawniard..) it's an extremely solid pokemon that can easily fit onto a lot of teams.
 

Lord Alphose

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Where would Bellosom fall? it has pretty decent defensive stats 75/85/110 but I don't see it ranked. Is it really that bad?
The short answer is yes. The long answer is yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!

But yeah, in all seriousness, the problem with Bellosom is that it is outclassed in almost every way. It's outclassed by C-rank Pokemon, which is sad. Even by D-rank Pokemon, actually.
 

Brambane

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Bellossom is actually 75/95/100

I don't think Bellossom is seen much because its pure Grass-type and it is grossly outclassed as a pure Grass-type by Meganium/Serperior. Not having STAB Sludge Bomb greatly reduces your potential damage output, and Meganium and Serperior has more options such is Dragon Tail, Leech Seed, Aromatherapy (Meg) or Taunt and Knock Off (Serp) while being just as bulky. Sleep Powder/Stun Spore and more Special Attack don't feel like reason enough to use Bellossom over Meganium/Serperior in most scenarios

And tbh idk how viable even Meganium is

edit: Oh and Tangela, I forgot about him too
 
Linoone to B - I really don't understand why this guy sits at C- rank. Obviously he's always compared to Slurpuff because they both run Belly Drum sets, but really each has its pros and cons. Slurpuff has Unburden and a better defensive typing/bulk, but Linoone has one thing that actually makes it better offensively than Slurpuff: ExtremeSpeed. The greatness of this move on Linoone is often overlooked, it's base 120 (with STAB), and allows Linoone to outprioritize literally every move not named Fake Out in NU, and fake out won't be killing it even with its pitiful bulk. Another amazing thing Linoone has over Slurpuff is that it doesn't care about Liepard. No need to even think about Prankster Encore thanks to E-Speed. It also isn't really affected by a switch into Pyroar, unlike Slurpuff, which loses Unburden boost. Sure, Pokemon like phys. def. Spiritomb and Ferroseed are checks to Belly Drum Linoone, but Pokemon like Weezing, Probopass, etc. can check Belly Drum Slurpuff (who sits at A+ Rank just so ya know). Physical walls are always a problem, and that's why hyperoffense isn't so common in NU. But given even moderately helpful circumstances, Linoone can devastate teams, so I don't think it deserves to be in the same rank as Simisage, and two ranks below Chatot, to say the least.

I'm not trying to say Linoone is on par with Slurpuff as a Pokemon lol. Slurpuff has much greater versatility thanks to Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, etc. What I'm trying to say is, their most common sets are similar, have obvious pros and cons, and it's just not right to have Linoone a whopping eight ranks below Slurpuff thanks to a few flaws.


Thanks for reading, I'm done defending raccoons fo todai.
 
Linoone to B - I really don't understand why this guy sits at C- rank. Obviously he's always compared to Slurpuff because they both run Belly Drum sets, but really each has its pros and cons. Slurpuff has Unburden and a better defensive typing/bulk, but Linoone has one thing that actually makes it better offensively than Slurpuff: ExtremeSpeed. The greatness of this move on Linoone is often overlooked, it's base 120 (with STAB), and allows Linoone to outprioritize literally every move not named Fake Out in NU, and fake out won't be killing it even with its pitiful bulk. Another amazing thing Linoone has over Slurpuff is that it doesn't care about Liepard. No need to even think about Prankster Encore thanks to E-Speed. It also isn't really affected by a switch into Pyroar, unlike Slurpuff, which loses Unburden boost. Sure, Pokemon like phys. def. Spiritomb and Ferroseed are checks to Belly Drum Linoone, but Pokemon like Weezing, Probopass, etc. can check Belly Drum Slurpuff (who sits at A+ Rank just so ya know). Physical walls are always a problem, and that's why hyperoffense isn't so common in NU. But given even moderately helpful circumstances, Linoone can devastate teams, so I don't think it deserves to be in the same rank as Simisage, and two ranks below Chatot, to say the least.

I'm not trying to say Linoone is on par with Slurpuff as a Pokemon lol. Slurpuff has much greater versatility thanks to Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, etc. What I'm trying to say is, their most common sets are similar, have obvious pros and cons, and it's just not right to have Linoone a whopping eight ranks below Slurpuff thanks to a few flaws.


Thanks for reading, I'm done defending raccoons fo todai.
Main problem I have with Linoone is that it requires way too much support. Don't get me wrong, if it sets up Belly Drum, and if all steels and most Pokemon that can take a hit are dead or weakened, it's a force to be reckoned with. The main problem though, is if Linoone sets up. It has next to no setup opportunities due to a bad defensive typing and frailty. It also needs steels removed beforehand, along with other annoying threats like Mismagius, Spiritomb, and basically any ghost that can outspeed it, thanks to Espeed being a normal type attack. So basically, Linoone really appreciates screens or memento support, and something to take care of steels and ghosts before it can start sweeping. Maybe Linoone should moved up to C rank, but C- is fine for now.
 
+6 252 Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 265-313 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

nope you're dead
Then why not say Gurdurr instead of mach punch? Gurdurr is obvi not going to be using mach punch, because there is no reason, and drain punch is the best option. Its only Gurdurr's bulk saving him, not priority, and I hope you dont rely on priority to take down Linoone.
 
+6 252 Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 265-313 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

nope you're dead
First of all I don't know why you'd run Jolly nature on Linoone.

So this would be more accurate:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 291-343 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This isn't so bad, get some spikes or toxic damage up early-game and it's an easy one-shot. I'm not saying Linoone is amazing, but it can work tremendously with the right support, unlike many other mons in the C- tier.
 
Yup. If you're belly drumming without having set up hazards while your opponent has a full-health Gurdurr, you're doing it wrong. Linoone is a late-game sweeper because there's a pretty substantial number of mons it can't break.
 
Warning: Long post cumming

Okay after played a fair amount in the mid ladder (100-50ish) I have a few changes I'd like to be done. But before that I'll have my few words on Linoone:

Linoone has no bulk and almost no setup opportunities in the meta as of now. Not to mention it needs a fuckton of Support to even sweep. G hosts like Mismagius, Haunter and mini-Geist needs to be gone because they can easily fuck you up with D-bond, trick and Will-o-Wisp respectibly, it also cant switch in on anything without loosing half of its help (besides things like Rapid spin and Ghost moves, but every user of these in the tier beats it) Even after the +6 boost Linoone is not able to OHKO things it needs to without hazard support. Good and relevant mons like Gurdurr, Tomb, Ferrothorn, Uxie, Granbull, Tangela and Pawniard (+ a few more). Normal is a shitty typing with fighting moves everywhere. Also FWAnarchist Multiple mons in the C- rank is there because they have a little relevant niche, Linoone is there because it is outclassed in almost all aspects by Slurpuff, Which can go mixed, has better bulk, better offensive and defensive typing and has a Stronger STAB move to use. it is also only weak to Steel priority which does not exist besides NonSTAB bullet punch from hariyama and the weak Metang, it also resists mach punch and sucker punch so dealing with priority is not a such big problem.

With that out of the way, I think Pawniard should fall down to C+ rank because of the shiftry rise. Defog is therefor less relevant and the remaining good Defoggers can Burn it with The most broken move in the game scald. it has still a nice niche in stopping Sticky web but that style is not so relevant in the current tier with very few hazard removers giving a shit (Pelipper, Mantine, Cryo and togetic) and even in sticky web Pawniard has problems beating common mons like Granbull and Slurpuff because of the speed drop.

I also think other hazard removers to get boosted because of the Shiftry rise, which makes most of them moer relevant. Pelipper should go to C+ IMO because it can come in on multiple physical attackers and help with support moves outside of Defog. these include Tailwind, Toxic, U-turn, Scald and Knock off. it also has recovery with Roost. Pelipper can also work as a solid rain setter because it regains Health with rain dish, making up for the lack of leftovers when using damp rock. Sandslash should go to B imo because it is has good bulk with only HP investment and has both SR and Rapid Spin. it also is not walled by Spinblockers because of a somewhat powerfull knock off + STAB EQ.

Gatr is Worth the S-rank everybody is speculating about. Because its 2 main sets (SD and DD) have like no relevant counters at all because you dont know what set it is based on team review and even after SD/DD has been used you dont know what Coverage it runs.

-Seismitoad gets 2HKOed by Frustration
-Vileplume gets beaten if it switches into Ice punch SD gatr, since it cannot put it to sleep (lum berry) and Ice punch does 70 - 82.4% to 252/252+ Plume. That means Plume is always 2HKOed after Giga drain and Black sludge by SD gatr.
-Lanturn takes a fuckton from Frustration from SD Gatr and Is 2HKOed by EQ from DD gatr. this is considering 252/252+ Lanturn which is not common anyways.
-Tangela is Almost 2HKOed by Ice punch from f you have 2 layers of spikes (which is easy as fuck to get up with Accel/Fish).
-All those above + Ferroseed is super easy to get rid of with Mortar/E-vire/Pyroar on your team, which anyway build fantastic offensive cores with Gatr

After research I think that Frillish is the only complete stop to SD Gatr, and that sucks in this meta and gets shrekt by EQ from DD gatr.
Feraligatr is also super easy to fit on teams since water is a fantastic offensive typing in the game and physically it is the best offensive pokemon with a water typing, only getting competition from samurott.
It also fits perfectly into offensive cores with good mons like E-vire, Mortar, Pyroar, Slurpuff, Swellow, Typhlosion, Sneasel and Sceptile. In balanced cores it is yet again good partners with Slurpuff, and other mons like Cryo, Mesprit, Dragalge and Ferroseed.
Gatr is also so prominant that it influences the entire meta and makes many pokemon like Flareon, Regice and Torkoal less viable (they are not that good to begin with tho) and Makes Tangela and Vileplume way more prominant and than what they normally should be.

I also think Slurpuff deserves S-rank because of its amazing versatility and how dangerous it is to balanced and Offensive teams. As said in my argument against Linoone, Puff has a very powerfull Belly drum set with Drum, Play rough, Return and Flamethrower (no need for frustration because you outspeed Ditto anyways). this set is amazing late game and as said before, the only priority that is SE comes from Hariyama and Metang. HOWEVER I think that Belly drum is a way to predictable and easy set to counter, and is only worth B+ or A- rank alone. What really makes me want to pun Slurpuff into S-rank is the Calm mind set. While it has a little 4MSS, a sample set of:

Slurpuff@Sitrus berry
IVs: 0 atk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Satk / 252 Spd OR 4 HP / 252 Satk / 252 Spd
Nature: Modest
Ability: Unburden
- Calm mind
- Dazzing gleam
- Flamethrower
- Psychic / Surf / Substitute
Is very effective. Most of this sets counters can easily be beaten by good Team members like Gatr, E-vire or Mortar. The best with this set is that its counters are different from the BD set. A good example is weezing, who can easily switch in on BD slurpuff and Will o wisp it, gets easily 2HKOed by min investment +1 Psychic. Slurpuff can set up on most unboosted Special attackers without a SE STAB and its super easy to get 2 calm mind up, sometimes even 3 while still having 50% health+ because of sitrus berry to survive every possible priority. with 252 HP you can survive attacks like Swellows Jolly guts boosted Facade and CB Archeops stone edge. Sub can be used to set up on mons like audino so they cannot status you. Just like Gatr it is super easy to fit on a team, and it can full counter dangerous pokemon like BU Gurdurr and Crotomb. Just like Gatr it fits easily into offensive and Balanced cores, hell it can even run a decent defensive set and become a cool supportmon for Stall and bulky offensive. For these reasons I think it is worth S-rank

Shit ill edit later:

Evire, Mortar, Gurdurr and Sneasel

Edit1:
Just going to put my own S to A- rank here since celever did it and it looked cool.

S

A+

A

A-
 
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Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
for C+

I'm not just nominating Cacturne for a higher because Shiftry has left, because I used Cacturne before Shiftry's ban and it was still very good. While Cacturne has its flaws, such as its crippling speed, OK-at-best bulk, and fairly limited moveset, as well as a fair amount of competition, I feel like Cacturne is still one of the best Pokémon in the low tiers (so C and under). This is really just because of one factor: its power. It can actually pose as a very threatening wall breaker, because it can at least 2 HKO all bulky commonly used Pokémon in the tier sans Dragalge. I've been using a Cacturne with Seed Bomb / Sucker Punch / Superpower / Poison Jab | Thunder Punch (barely ever use the last slot though) and that alone is enough coverage and versatility for some teams. Cacturne does not fit on all teams, but if it is on a bulky offense team, for example, it can really shine. I know that CB + SP is stupid, but it works well for me, just because it usually gets a KO against offensive teams, even though that's really not what Cacturne matches up well against. Anyway, here are some calcs to show Cacturne's wall breaking potential:

252+ Atk Choice Band Cacturne Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Miltank: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cacturne Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Steelix: 188-222 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 186-219 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 216-254 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 684-808 (165.2 - 195.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cacturne has bulk where he needs it, too:

4 Atk Miltank Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 171-202 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cacturne: 78-92 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- 28.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Regirock Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 226-267 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Seismitoad Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cacturne: 222-262 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cacturne reliably beats many Pokémon who trouble others with their bulk 1 on 1. Furthermore, let's look at the description for C tier:
"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."

Cacturne can be very effective late game given the right support (such as Ninjask or Combusken pass, but I'm assuming we're excluding these for the tier list as Ninjask especially is a gimmick). It is not only powerful with a bunch of speed boosts, but personally I run Mesprit with Healing Wish which is perfect support for Cacturne. One of Cacturne's main flaws is that it is weakened very easily and it really struggles in terms of stamina throughout the match, but Healing Wish gives Cacturne a second chance and lets it smash more stuff. I would say that Cacturne also fits in with the "crippling flaws" category. However, I 100% believe that Cacturne is on the same league as other Pokémon in C+ such as Articuno, Quilladin, Sandslash and Vullaby.

for B-

OK, Drifblim getting up to B- might be pushing it a bit (it is C+ right now though) but hear me out. Drifblim is another possible Defog user, yes, but what I care more than it's role as a defensive Pokémon is a possible offensive set, mainly the incredibly threatening AcroBlimp set (IK that no one else calls it that...) from last generation. While this set has been nerfed substantially because of Flying Gem's unavailability, I find it still works well with a Sitrus Berry. I'd say that this is a great offensive niche to have in the tier, since few other Pokémon can be such a powerful support Pokémon. A set of Acrobatics / Substitute / Defog | Will-O-Wisp | Destiny Bond / Defog | Will-O-Wisp | Destiny Bond with Unburden and a Sitrus Berry does really work well in this tier. Drifblim's speed is doubled when it loses its Sitrus Berry which you can aid with Substitute. This is a base 160 speed! This means it can outspeed every single physical attacker in the tier and burn them besides Choice Scarf Sneasel I believe. If someone were to work out the exact EVs to do this I would be grateful, anyway. Right now I just have 252 EVs in it...

Anyway, not only does Drifblim have a great offensive niche in AcroBlimp, it also has an interesting defensive niche, also inspired from last generation. On certain teams I like using Drifblim and a set of Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave / Clear Smog | Haze | Memento / Shadow Ball | Memento with Leftovers and Aftermath. This is just a fantastic support Pokémon because it shuts down powerful offensive Pokémon where it can to let a Pokémon like BD Slurpuff set up more safely while also shutting down set-up sweepers with Clear Smog / Haze. If you invest maximum speed, for example, you can speed tie Jolly Feraligatr and Modest Mesprit and outspeed Adamant Feraligatr and Adamant Sawk. This set was very much inspired by the sets Misdreavus used to run last generation for a similar task; shutting down sweepers like Sawk. This is also a great defensive niche. So, let's look at the description for B rank now:

"Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category."

Drifblim cannot sweep through significant portions of the metagame with its AcroBlimp set; however, it can punch holes in the opponents team and weaken many Pokémon substantially for a Pokémon like Mesprit or Sceptile to clean up. Nor can Drifblim wall a significant portion of the metagame for too long with its pitiful 44 and 54 base defensive stats, helped only by its base 150 HP, which is a pretty great remedy really. However, it can properly fulfill both a given offensive and defensive niche (not at the same time though). Drifblim's support such as Defog is hindered somewhat by its weakness to the hazard, as well as not having the best defense. This is especially apparent because it has to invest maximum speed to properly perform its supporting niche, preventing it investing those EVs in bulk. However, it is not bait for setup sweeepers on any set as it almost always carries Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave. As such, while not good enough for neutral B, I feel that Drifblim does in fact fit the description for B enough to be placed in B- alongside Togetic, Pawniard and Flareon, who similarly only have one offensive or defensive niche which they utilize very well. Actually, I'm not that sure on Flareon, but whatever.

Replay of Drifblim getting to work: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-149615985

I know, I can't battle and that team is probably awful. Posting it anyway lol.
 
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Why is Xatu B? No, seriously. Do I even need to explain why the only Magic Bounce user in the tier that also has access to STAB Stored Power, Calm Mind, Dual Screens, Tailwind, Defog, U-turn, Thunder Wave, Trick, Foul Play, Wish, Haze, and Roost deserves to be ranked higher than B?
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Why is Xatu B? No, seriously. Do I even need to explain why the only Magic Bounce user in the tier that also has access to STAB Stored Power, Calm Mind, Dual Screens, Tailwind, Defog, U-turn, Thunder Wave, Trick, Foul Play, Wish, Haze, and Roost deserves to be ranked higher than B?
Because it fits the description of B-tier perfectly, that being it fills a defensive niche perfectly, that in itself being Magic Bounce. It is also part of the Combusken Pass to Xatu with Stored Power gimmick, yes, but that isn't really relevant as an individual Pokémon. Why doesn't it get passed to Musharna, Swoobat or even Girafarig? Xatu may be able to pull that gimmick off the best, but it is not something it does individually, and as such a gimmick involving another Pokémon so crucially tend to be considered in the main Pokémon's ranking, that being Combusken here.

Xatu is also outclassed in pretty much everything it does (this is off the top of my head and I'm somewhat new to this tier, so I'll be forgetting lots of Pokémon here lol):
Dual Screens - Uxie, Mesprit
Tailwind - Archeops, Pelipper, Swanna (the latter two are more personal preference, but Archeops outclasses Xatu 90% of the time.)
Defog - A lot of Pokémon, such as Pelipper, Altaria and Swellow
U-Turn - By this I assume you mean momentum grabber? Because Mesprit and especially Liepard do this much better.
Thunder Wave - Ferroseed, Granbull, Uxie, Mesprit
Trick - Rotoms, Mesprit, Uxie
Foul Play - This isn't even a niche lol. Even if it was Liepard gets STAB on it and is faster.
Wish - I can't think of a Pokémon with this right now, but honestly Healing Wish is better for momentum and healing, which Mesprit utilizes very well.
Haze - I'll give you this one. Xatu gets wrecked by most setup sweepers like Feraligatr anyway.
Roost - Again not a niche in its own right, so nothing "Roosts" better.

I'm not saying that Xatu is bad by any means, but it IS a Pokémon which belongs in B rank. A B rank Pokémon is classified as:
"Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category."

Xatu fulfills a given offensive (Combusken pass) or defensive (Magic Bounce) niche. Xatu is sort of setup bait for some of the more popular sweepers, as it doesn't really do anything to them and is just KO'd in return lol. It is also partially outperformed by Mesprit and Uxie who are in A- rank, but is a good Pokémon anyway. This is why Xatu is in B-Rank and why, IMO, it should not be ranked any higher.

To get more in the given discussion, this is what my S and A rank would look like now (A rank would need to be changed a bit after some of them going up to S):

S


A+


A


A-



Changes: Combusken from A+ to S, Feraligatr from A+ to S, Liepard from A to A+, Mesprit from A- to A, Gurdurr from B+ to A-, Mismagius B+ to A-

Combusken - Does this really need reasoning? Combusken is being suspect tested rn ffs. We all know that it is the best sweeper, Baton Passer (if that's a role in its own right lol) and pretty much best Pokémon in the tier.

Feraligatr - So Feraligatr I saw mentioned before but I didn't really read the argument. I just want Feraligatr in S rank because it is probably the second-best Pokémon in the tier, and is definitely the most versatile, closely followed by Slurpuff. The thing which is really dangerous about is definitely that versatility. You don't know whether Feraligatr is SD or DD until after it sets up, by which time it's usually too late already without powerful priority like Sucker Punch from a Cacturne or Spiritomb. This thing is so dangerous it made Pokémon like Vileplume and Tangela more viable just because they could counter it well. I think that that is a quality an S-Rank should have.

Liepard - Best support Pokémon in the tier right now and shuts down almost all setup sweepers besides DD Feraligatr and Gurdurr with some good prediction I believe. It is also probably the best weather setter in the tier just because of its Prankster ability, as well as the ability to pick up momentum quickly unlike other weather setters which is more important than ever on weather teams. It also gets STAB Knock Off for some good power and other utility attacks such as Thunder Wave and of course Encore, as well as U-Turn which is the main way it picks up momentum. Plus, I think it can run some fairly good offensive sets. I haven't seen any work thus far, but my teams always seem to have counters to them lol.

Mesprit - Mesprit and Uxie are similar Pokémon, and they fit on different teams generally, but they are differentiable. For something like stall you should use Uxie over Mesprit. On VolTurn Mesprit is the better option. What I feel puts Mesprit in A rank is the fact that, like Feraligatr, you don't know what it is going to do before it uses it. Mesprit can work offensively or defensively with its base 95 in its physical and special stats, and it has the movepool to back this up with moves like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt, Psychic, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Rain Dance, Sunny Day and its best option: Healing Wish. Healing Wish is another important thing which differentiates Mesprit from Uxie. It knocks out Mesprit and fully heals its replacement, which is fantastic on teams like HO or even bulky offense sometimes. Mesprit is one of those Pokémon who is a bit of a jack-of-all trades, but you can concentrate its moves into one role and unlike most it is actually good at its role most of the time. For example, if you're on a sun team, a set of Sunny Day, Knock Off, Healing Wish and Zen Headbutt with a Heat Rock would work. If you're using a HO team a set of Psychic, Ice Beam, Energy Ball and U-Turn could work with a Choice Scarf / Choice Specs / Life Orb.

Gurdurr - Gurdurr has been an underrated threat since last generation lol. Its bulk with Eviolite, as we all know, is absurd. It was so good that last generation it was viable when this tier was completely and utterly run by Psychic-Type Pokémon like Musharna and Gardevoir. This generation it only got better with the Knock Off boost making Psychic-Type Pokémon even less of a worry to it. It also holds the esteemed title of being the one Pokémon Liepard can't switch into and try and Encore to great success, just because risk vs reward tells it not to. If Liepard decides to switch anyway out of desperation, you can usually tell and OHKO with Mach Punch. Gurdurr has direct competition with Sawk; Sawk is a little more powerful, while Gurdurr is a lot bulkier. However, the aforementioned Mach Punch is a very important thing Gurdurr has over Sawk because it is a priority move. After a Bulk Up this move does insane amounts of damage for a priority attack, and while it may not have something like Recover, it tends to recover more than enough HP with Drain Punch. I'd say that Gurdurr fits the description for A-Rank better than B-Rank anyway: "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently". Gurdurr does have one main flaw, and that is that it does get worn down quite easily throughout the match. It acts as the glue to a team, and while it is very durable it does lack recovery outside of Drain Punch, which can just not heal enough HP sometimes. This is why it should be only A-, but I think it is too good for B+.

Mismagius - This is probably going to be the most controversial suggestion on this list besides Feraligatr, but hear me out. Mismagius is very unpredictable; in special attacks alone it gets Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Power Gem, Thunder(Bolt), Dazzling Gleam and Psychic. It gets two fantastic setup moves (Nasty Plot and Calm Mind) and a blistering base 105 speed. I've found a Choice Scarf set effective to nail stuff like Sneasel and Pyroar with Power Gem. It's probably the closest thing we have to a special set up sweeper in the tier right now, too, and it is good at what it does.

What changes would you make to this list?
 
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