Other Aegislash Post-Ban Discussion Thread

[.TM87]

We won't regret it. If we need to regret it, then we will ban it. Also, +1 252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 300-355 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO, 252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 95-112 (24.1 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery and 252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 106-125 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 35.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. Added 50 to SpA and Atk respectively.

Why are you even giving me Sceptile/Metagross Calcs?

Your Logic:
Me: Mega Sceptile and Mega Metagross will be great.
You: //uses some of the bulkiest pokemon to try and tank their hits
"See, they won't be that good because Chansey/Slowbro can tank that."

How exactly is Chesnaught more viable with Aegislash gone? I thought one of Chesnaught's major selling points was Bulletproof letting you beat the standard KS + 3 Attacks set.

I've been seeing it more after Aegislash was gone.

 

[Yayz]

Mega, not regular. Why are you even giving me Sceptile/Metagross Calcs?

He added 50 their respective attacking stats. As far as I'm aware, this is the largest buff any Pokemon has gotten to one of their attacking stats, so even best or worst case (depending on who you're asking) these are the most they're doing.

 

[.TM87]

these are the most they're doing.

To some of the Bulkiest Walls in OU. Come on now.

 

[Yayz]

To some of the Bulkiest Walls in OU. Come on now.

Point. However, when I said that I did mean "these are the most they're doing to these Pokemon in particular". We'll see how damaging they are to the meta when they're released.


This is the first generation I've been really paying attention to the meta. When a new game is released, what happens with the suspects? That's a question to everyone, by the way.

 

[insanelegend]

I just wanted to raise a point here for everyone complaining about stall being destroyed by Mega-Pinsir, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Heracross, and Mega-Gardervoir. First off, is an obvious point but one a feel should be said: you can't run more than one Mega. While I realize that you need to prepare for these threats, you don't need to prepare for all of them attacking in the same battle. A counter and a check for each should suffice. I also notice that both Mega-Gardevoir and Mega-Medicham will be walled by Calm Mind Cresselia (who is destroyed by Mega-Pinsir running X-Scissor and Mega-Heracross but but still counters the former two) which works as a great wall with one of its primary counters, Aegislash, now gone from OU. Bulky Rotom-Heat also works as a great counter to Mega-Pinsir, while threatening not only it but slower Mega-Heracross. Mega-Medicham doesn't like to switch in because of possible burns, while Mega-Gardevoir's most powerful move is resisted. Also, Talonflame revenges all of these as mentioned earlier. So please consider that while stall is struggling now, new pokemon like Cressilia will be used to counter these buffed threats. The metagame will adapt and life will go on. Staraptor will also be a beast once Skarmory is out of the way since Aegislash wall that bird so easily.

 

[.TM87]

Point. However, when I said that I did mean "these are the most they're doing to these Pokemon in particular". We'll see how damaging they are to the meta when they're released.


This is the first generation I've been really paying attention to the meta. When a new game is released, what happens with the suspects? That's a question to everyone, by the way.

OR/AS = Gen 6.5

 

[Ropeburn]

This is the first generation I've been really paying attention to the meta. When a new game is released, what happens with the suspects? That's a question to everyone, by the way.

Most suspects are just moved back down. Obviously broken shit like Lugia/Mewtwo is kept in Ubers. Excadrill and Thundurus were Ubers last gen, and got moved down to OU. Deoxys Attack, Speed and Defense also moved down. I believe it's the council who decides the preliminary banlist. However, I'm not sure if ORAS really counts as a new "generation" since they're just adding some new mega evolutions.

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok hold up, the whole thing about suspects is totally irrelevant to the thread but just so we have no misinformation for newer users who weren't here for the transition between BW and BW2. When ORAS comes out, it will still be gen VI and we will continue playing the tier as it is when the game come out. There will almost certainly not be a mass unbanning, certainly not until the ORAS meta has developed. They may drop a few mons if the meta shifts in a way to where they're not broken (unlikely). However, the tier will not reset as it does at the beginning of a new generation.

Anyway, about Aegi, the only thing that I dislike about the ban of Aegi is how Offense has nothing for Fairy types anymore. There just aren't any good offensive steel types. Heatran could work but still loses to Azumarill. It's a huge problem that I don't like. But it's just further proof that Azu is broken n_n

 

[Karxrida]

Ok hold up, the whole thing about suspects is totally irrelevant to the thread but just so we have no misinformation for newer users who weren't here for the transition between BW and BW2. When ORAS comes out, it will still be gen VI and we will continue playing the tier as it is when the game come out. There will almost certainly not be a mass unbanning, certainly not until the ORAS meta has developed. They may drop a few mons if the meta shifts in a way to where they're not broken (unlikely). However, the tier will not reset as it does at the beginning of a new generation.

Anyway, about Aegi, the only thing that I dislike about the ban of Aegi is how Offense has nothing for Fairy types anymore. There just aren't any good offensive steel types. Heatran could work but still loses to Azumarill. It's a huge problem that I don't like. But it's just further proof that Azu is broken n_n

You do realize Bisharp exists, right? And you made a team for me using it?

 

[haunter]

When ORAS comes out, it will still be gen VI and we will continue playing the tier as it is when the game come out. There will almost certainly not be a mass unbanning, certainly not until the ORAS meta has developed. They may drop a few mons if the meta shifts in a way to where they're not broken (unlikely). However, the tier will not reset as it does at the beginning of a new generation.

Confirming that OR/AS will still count as Gen VI. We're not going to do any mass unban, nor we're randomly dropping current Ubers to OU. At most we might retest some controversial ones (cough Aegislash), but that's it.

Anyway, about Aegi, the only thing that I dislike about the ban of Aegi is how Offense has nothing for Fairy types anymore. There just aren't any good offensive steel types. Heatran could work but still loses to Azumarill. It's a huge problem that I don't like. But it's just further proof that Azu is broken n_n

Bulky Mega Scizor is a decent Azumarill switch in to fit on offensive teams, it only really loses to BD variants and has roost to recover off the damage from waterfall/play rough. Plus knock off does nothing to it.

 

[Luckstard.]

You do realize Bisharp doesn't resist to fairy type because of its Dark-type, right?

Mawile and Azumarill are both a huge pain to check when playing HO.
Mawile forces deadly 50/50 between Sucker Punch and Play Rough. Azumarill has no real counter in HO, you have to predict switchs into him and try to have the better match up as possible to face him (by using some lures like Poison Jab Conkeldurr (or dragoons), or set-up mons like Bulky SD M-Scizor, Gyarados and maybe Mawile (not sûre, didn't calc), or offensive Electric-types like Thundurus, Raikou or M-Manec, you can also hit on the switch with HP grass Greninja or hope to burn with Scald if you are using Keldeo).
Note that I'm not trying to demonstrate that Azu is not broken, because I agree that physically offensive Fairy-type should be at least suspected n_n

The Post-Aegislash metagame is in my opinion a little better, a lot poeple scared M-Medicham or M-Heracross, they are obviously greats but you can play around them, they are slow, and Clefable can wall both, in exemple.

 

[mcdanger]

I'm more concerned about Mega Gardevoir because, as Halcyon pointed out, there is no go to steel for offensive teams for fairies. Mega Gardevoir can also just burn whatever steel comes into it and make it significantly less useful, aside from Heatran who doesn't want to stomach Focus Blast. As Haunter mentioned, Mega Scizor is good, I played it on the suspect ladder, but you need to give up your mega slot for coverage. Furthermore, it needs a bulky set to stand up to Mega Gardevoir and Azumarill meaning it forgoes a fair amount of power, and can still lose to Mawile. Mega Medicham is a big threat to slower teams, but it can't do much more than hit and run against faster teams. Of course if it gets the chance to fire off an attack something it going down or getting crippled. I feel that as well as Mega Heracross are being hyped as the Aegislash ban had little effect on stall as few teams ran Aegislash and Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross do have trouble with Physically Defensive Clefable as well as some other answers such as Will o Wisp Mega Charizard X, Victini, and Slowbro.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Mega Gardevoir
Pokedex Number - #282
Type(s) - Psychic/Fairy
Base Stats - 68 HP / 85 Atk / 65 Def / 165 SAtk / 135 SDef / 100 Spe

Ability
Pixilate: Strengthens Normal-type moves by 33%, then changes them to Fairy-type.

Notable moves
Hyper Voice
Psyshock
Psychic
Moonblast
Focus Blast
Shadow Ball
Taunt
Will-O-Wisp
Calm Mind
Stored Power
Hypnosis

General Analysis of Pokemon
Mega Gardevoir is undeniably one of the most dangerous wallbreakers in OU ever since Aegislash left for the gods' domain. Between its fantastic type coverage, ability to shut its would-be checks down with a single move and its capacity to completely dismantle Stall teams, Mega Gardevoir makes for an excellent Pokémon that easily fits on many team archetypes. Its marvelous base 165 Special Attack ensures at least something is bound to either take heavy damage or outright faint; backed up by a wonderful base 135 Special Defense and good 100 Speed stats, almost not a single Pokémon can stand up to Mega Gardevoir. That beautiful Special Attack stat combined with its great STABs and high-power coverage, along with highly effective support moves make it incredibly hard to switch in on. Its base stage has the Ability Trace, which enables it to completely shut Pokémon like defensive Heatran down and force many dangerous switches, a lethal quality, considering how difficult it is to switch in on Mega Gardevoir. Its 100 Speed may not be enough at times, but Mega Gardevoir is one of the best Pokémon to use on Sticky Web teams and has excellent synergy with offensive powerhouses like Tyranitar and Bisharp.

Potential Movesets
Takin' the Stage!
Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace -> Pixilate
EVs: 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe or 24 Def/232 SAtk/252 Spe
Modest or Timid nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Taunt / Will-O-Wisp / Calm Mind

Set Description:
I'm not completely certain about the EV spread myself. I know the 24 EVs in Defense prevent LO Latios from 2HKOing with Psyshock, but with Choice Specs Latios on the rise, I'm not completely certain if the 24 EVs will still be necessary. Modest nature makes Mega Gardevoir completely brutal, while Timid allows it to outspeed neutral base 100s. Since Mega Gardevoir often doesn't really need to speedtie, as several base 95s and 100s don't fully invest in Speed all the time, Modest is a perfectly viable nature that ensures several nice 2HKOs and OHKOs after SR. There's not really much to explain on the moveset, as Mega Gardevoir is one of the most straightforward wallbreakers in the tier. Hyper Voice reaches a staggering base power of 175 after STAB and hits past Substitutes, making Mega Gardevoir an excellent Pokémon to combat Substitute users with. Psyshock hits physically weak Pokémon for much higher damage; when running Calm Mind, a +1 Modest Mega Gardevoir scores a guaranteed 2HKO on Chansey with it. Focus Blast hits the myriad of Steel-types that resist its STABs for good damage, notably Mega Mawile and Mega Scizor. The last slot comes down to preference and necessity: Taunt stops defensive Pokémon like Clefable, Chansey and Cresselia dead in their tracks, Will-O-Wisp cripples physical switch-ins for the remainder of the match and Calm Mind augments Mega Gardevoir's power to simply absurd levels while giving it a great amount of resilience on the special side of the spectrum.

Personal Opinion of the Pokemon/Conclusion:
Mega Gardevoir is an absolute gem of a Pokémon and should definitely be considered if you need a powerful wallbreaker that can efficiently deal with Stall teams, should you find yourself troubled by those. Without a doubt, one of the premier wallbreakers in OU since the departure of Aegislash.

 

[Kyuzeth]

The Post-Aegislash metagame is in my opinion a little better, a lot poeple scared M-Medicham or M-Heracross, they are obviously greats but you can play around them, they are slow, and Clefable can wall both, in exemple.

+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 345-410 (87.5 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Come again? Really, though, Clefable can't switch in on Mega Heracross in fear of being 2HKOed most of the time. It can wall Mega Medicham, sure, but not Mega Heracross.

 

[Karxrida]

You do realize Bisharp doesn't resist to fairy type because of its Dark-type, right?

Mawile and Azumarill are both a huge pain to check when playing HO.
Mawile forces deadly 50/50 between Sucker Punch and Play Rough. Azumarill has no real counter in HO, you have to predict switchs into him and try to have the better match up as possible to face him (by using some lures like Poison Jab Conkeldurr (or dragoons), or set-up mons like Bulky SD M-Scizor, Gyarados and maybe Mawile (not sûre, didn't calc), or offensive Electric-types like Thundurus, Raikou or M-Manec, you can also hit on the switch with HP grass Greninja or hope to burn with Scald if you are using Keldeo).
Note that I'm not trying to demonstrate that Azu is not broken, because I agree that physically offensive Fairy-type should be at least suspected n_n

The Post-Aegislash metagame is in my opinion a little better, a lot poeple scared M-Medicham or M-Heracross, they are obviously greats but you can play around them, they are slow, and Clefable can wall both, in exemple.

Bisharp can BS its way past both with a single Iron Head flinch and wins outright if it has any boosts beforehand.

What's with you guys and discounting Bisharp anyway? Its viability was never directly related to Aegislash and has the ability to wallbreak, sweep, and Pursuit trap with one set. It's very difficult to counter without taking loads of damage and/or losing your item since it doesn't need to take a turn to set up like other boosting threats, letting it immediately use the most spammable move in the game backed by STAB, an Adamant nature, and a boosting item.

EDIT: Fuck phones.

 

[Luckstard.]

I didn't said bisharp was bad, he is maybe one of the strongest mon of the 6tg gen meta. Bisharp is near to be broken :

- Dark stabb, there is only few mon that can switch into Knock Off after Swords Dance or defog boost (but still RK'able by fighting mons if they can survive or avoid the sucker punch)
- Defiant maintains a big offensive pressure
- Defiant forces 50/50 for defog users (mainly Zapdos and Latios)
In fact, Bisharp forces 50/50 while he is not even on the field.
- Sucker Punch + Knock Off forces deadly 50/50 after set-up

Bisharp was used in HO to deal with Aegislash, but that wasn't the only reason, he can destroy a lot of stall team (especially if they didn't run Quagsire), he sweeps defensive fairy (Sylveon, Clefable) and can check offensive fairy (Mawile, Azumarill).

Btw, you can't rely on iron head flinch with sharp, 30% isn't enough to rely on it like ppl relied on it with Jirachi past gens.

+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 345-410 (87.5 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Come again? Really, though, Clefable can't switch in on Mega Heracross in fear of being 2HKOed most of the time. It can wall Mega Medicham, sure, but not Mega Heracross.

yh, didn't calc'd and tough Clefable was safer than that against Heracross.
Still, Heracross give opportunity to M-Pinsir or Talonflame to set-up a Swords Dance (assuming poeple won't sack their Heracross, especially against Tflame). He isn't bad as well, he is terrifying and it's pretty hard to switch into it, you have to predict it.

 

[Kyuzeth]

yh, didn't calc'd and tough Clefable was safer than that against Heracross.
Still, Heracross give opportunity to M-Pinsir or Talonflame to set-up a Swords Dance (assuming poeple won't sack their Heracross, especially against Tflame). He isn't bad as well, he is terrifying and it's pretty hard to switch into it, you have to predict it.

I'm afraid Rock Blast nullifies that statement. It's never choice-locked and both of those Pokémon have a double weakness to Rock-type moves, so a well-predicted Rock Blast can finish both of 'em off. Megacross can't stay in on them, though.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

- Defiant forces 50/50 for defog users (mainly Zapdos and Latios)

are you shitting me, stop using this shitty buzzword.

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
what is so hard about doing that

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 146-173 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[xJownage]

I'm afraid Rock Blast nullifies that statement. It's never choice-locked and both of those Pokémon have a double weakness to Rock-type moves, so a well-predicted Rock Blast can finish both of 'em off. Megacross can't stay in on them, though.

why would megacross stay in to die? if they brave bird or quick attack respectively you have a dead talonflame/mega pinsir

 

[Kyuzeth]

why would megacross stay in to die? if they brave bird or quick attack respectively you have a dead talonflame/mega pinsir

I'm perfectly aware. I was implying Mega Heracross could catch Mega Pinsir or Talonflame on the switch and snipe 'em with Rock Blast. Nobody in their right mind would stay in on either with a Mega Heracross.

 

[Siggu]

are you shitting me, stop using this shitty buzzword.

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
what is so hard about doing that

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 146-173 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Assuming Bisharp switches into Defog...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 290-343 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Assuming Bisharp switches into Defog...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 290-343 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

so predict the switch and heat wave. it's. not. hard.

 

[Sunodasuto]

so predict the switch and heat wave. it's. not. hard.

But thats where the 50/50's begin. Say your opponent predicts you to predict the switch and so stays in on the heat wave with his Azumarill (as an example).

 

[G-Von]

Breloom
Pokedex Number - [#]
Type(s) - [Type]
Base Stats - 60 HP / 130 Atk / 80 Def / 60 SAtk / 60 SDef / 70 Spe

General Analysis of Pokemon/Current Roles in OU -
Potential Movesets
Spore+3 Attacks
name: Breloom
move 1: Spore
move 2: Mach Punch
move 3: Bullet Seed
move 4: Rock Tomb
ability: Technician
item: Life Orb/Focus Sash
nature: Adamant/Jolly
evs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def

Set Description:
The EVs of this set are maxed out in Attack and Speed to capitalize on Breloom's offensive presence, which is further bolstered by a Life Orb if you choose to run it. Adamant is recommended for maximum power, though Jolly is great for outspeeding major threats like Dragonite or Gyarados. Finally, a Focus Sash is recommended for Breloom to guarantee a hit on an opposing Pokemon with Spore or an attack, though a Life Orb can be used for a bit of extra power.

This set aims to take advantage of Technician and utilize moves that will leave the opposing team extremely worn down. Spore is one of the moves that set Breloom apart from many other attackers, and it could potentially incapacitate a foe for most of the game. It can also be used on a predicted switch to ease prediction, unless a Grass-type or Pokemon with Overcoat are still alive. Bullet Seed is Breloom's most powerful STAB attack after Technician and is useful for breaking through Sturdy and Focus Sash. Mach Punch is a STAB priority move that is useful for hitting weakened or faster foes, and hits really hard after Technician as well. Finally, Rock Tomb is a very useful attack for slowing down anticipated switch-ins for Breloom to take down later; it can hit many common Breloom checks such as Talonflame and Dragonite really hard. Swords Dance can be used over Rock Tomb to allow Breloom to sweep through unprepared teams, as its Attack soars to sky-high levels after a +2 boost

Personal Opinion of the Pokemon/Conclusion:
Breloom for some odd reason has always given me trouble. There was a certain team I had a lot of success with that got completely decimated by Breloom. It was like Lando/Keldeo/Ferrothorn/Jellicent/Tyranitar/Rotom-W and it got steamrolled everytime the other team had a Breloom lol. Due to the Aegislash ban, Breloom has been given a little more viability after this gen has completely nerfing not been kind to it.

 

[Pyritie]

But thats where the 50/50's begin. Say your opponent predicts you to predict the switch and so stays in on the heat wave with his Azumarill (as an example).

If "making 50/50's" makes something ban-worthy, then we might as well ban switching because that's exactly what pokemon is