I am so happy this thing is getting a suspect. Mawile Mega has great typing and monster power. With coverage moves it can deal with supposed counters. For instance sub punch beats Heatran and other steels. It gets the opportunity to set up substitute quite easily because of the mons that it forces out. Fire fang destroys Ferrothorn,Skarmory,and Scizor. Fire fang is also used to hit opposing Mawiles hard. This thing has absolutely ridiculous power and when Mawile switches in something is bound to die or get heavily damaged. Of all the Pokemon in the OU Metagame, very little can switch in Mawile. The few mons that i can think of are Mega Venusaur, Physically Defensive Gliscor, Hippo and Lando t. And Heatran if it lacks Focus Punch. Some people may say it has crap speed and average bulk, but it makes up its speed with a priority sucker punch. And it makes up its average bulk with its great typing and power. This Calc demonstrates how absurd this thing is: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. Garchomp is one of the bulkiest sweepers in OU, and it has a 75 % chance to get Koed by a plus 2 sucker. I hope you all make the right decision and ban this thing.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]
- Thread starter Nachos
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What does your leaving Smogon have anything to do with whether mawile should be banned or not?
I'm surprised the Council didn't go for a quick ban with Mawile as it's so obvious how broken this thing is. Not centralising like Aegislash but broken. It's attack is so high that nothing on offense or Stall can reliably switch into this thing. The SubPunch set wrecks stall while the SD, sucker punch plus Stabs rips through offense unless you are a master at predictions.
(Note: I'm mainly focusing on the SD/Fire Fang/Play Rough/Sucker Punch set, considering this is its considered its best set and that I could already write an essay about how beyond stupid this sole set is. Also, I'm usually assuming a +2 Mawile, considering the counter has to switch in and Mawile can use an astounding array of physical attackers as setup bait)
O-kay, I've been waiting for this for some time and imo this thing simply has to go. This thing has been steamrolling me every single time I faced it, unless my opponent didn't bother to set up fsr. I'm not a very good player, so I thought the more expert players had found more reliable ways to play around this thing, but when I asked in the SQSA thread if somebody knew even a decently reliable counter, the best answer I got was Counter Skarmory of all things >.>
Imo, the combination of absurd power, Intimidate, and strong priority break this thing.
I know raw power is usually a bad argument to ban something, but I think this is an exceptional case. To illustrate my point, I would like to provide two calcs from a situation that happened to me quite some time ago:
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 204-242 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (standard spread has about this much HP EVs iirc)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Effectively, this means Mawile can use the third strongest Earthquake in OU as setup bait (after Diggersby's and Landorus-T's) in a pinch and proceed to clean up. (I know this example is generally not advisable, but it works perfectly fine if the opponent's priority users and Sucker Punch resists have been removed). I'd like to stress that we're talking about a 100BP super effective STAB move here coming off 135 base Attack - but if Excadrill KOes an opponent or spins the previous turn, there's literally nothing to stop Mawile from switching in, Intimidating, and proceeding to wreak havoc. Its pre-Mega ability, Intimidate, allows it to set up on virtually any physical attacker after coming in on a free turn.
I also would like to point out some parallels with a blatantly broken threat that has already been banned a long time ago.
Of course, Khan is more broken than Mawile and comparing these points one on one is guaranteed to bring some logical flaws, but especially the first two points are pretty telling, considering Mawile is simply stronger than Kangaskhan:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 373-441 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 672-792 (222.5 - 262.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 792-932 (262.2 - 308.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The unnuanced (the nuance is coming, dw) point I'm making is: if Mega Khan's sheer power against physical walls and revenge killers was reason enough to ban it, there is no reason to keep Mega Mawile - arguing against this would simply be arguing against mathematics. Fortunately, unlike Mega Khan, Mawile doesn't hit twice and is outsped by some walls. Also, Mawile is slightly less bulky than Khan, although this is mitigated by a much better defensive typing and Intimidate. Finally, Mawile is much more reliant on Sucker Punch, although this isn't that bad if a +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes basically anything that doesn't resist it :)
Being a subpar player, I don't want to make any too firm statements regarding the third point, because I'm sure expert players have come up with better ways to cover Mawile than I have. I would, however, like to address some Mawile counters I've heard mentioned.
-Skarmory: If SR is up, Skarmory is OHKOed by +2 Fire Fang. If SR is not up, Skarmory can either phaze Mawile - which doesn't solve anything, Mawile can simply come back later, the only difference being it has no Intimidate to turn basically every physical attacker into setup bait - or Skarmory can survive with Sturdy and Counter Mawile's Fire Fang. While this does defeat Mawile, this would qualify as 'trade one's check in order to have Mega Mawile kill itself' (see point 3 Khan) and it draws uncanny parallels to Haze Unaware Quagsire, in that one is running a completely counterproductive move on a mon that is already starved for moveslots. (Counter works in order to retaliate less powerful physical attacks and then Roost off the damage - when using it to force your own physical wall into a one for one trade, I consider this counterproductive :) )
-Heatran: the standard specially defensive set with Toxic is highly shaky. +2 Sucker Punch does ~80% of damage, whereas Lava Plume has only a small chance to OHKO in return after SR (without SR, an OHKO is impossible). Any offensive set is cleanly OHKOed by Sucker Punch after SR (97% minimum damage). Heatran only reliably beats it if it runs Will-O-Wisp, while it would prefer to run Toxic in order to be more effective on stall and for crippling walls and because it already has Lava Plume in order to spread clutch burns.
-Rotom-W: I've heard this thing is a counter to Mawile, considering it can reliably burn it. While this is true, that's frankly all it can do. If Mawile sets up on the switch, even a burned Play Rough hits physically defensive Rotoms for ~70% damage, bringing it in Sucker Punch's KO range. Therefore, after burning it, Rotom has to switch out and leave the rest of its team to deal with a Mawile that's still just as strong as before setting up; effectively, burning only resets the Swords Dance. Mawile has been crippled in the sense that it can't really switch out anymore, but it still hits like an angry killer bull on steroids. Rotom is as much of a counter to Mawile as Sableye was to Mega Khan; it can burn it, but that's basically it. Iirc, in Khan's case this wasn't considered to be enough.
Afaik, Swords Dance Mega Mawile's reliable counters are limited to a few defensive Fire-types, most notably Arcanine, Heatran, and Bulk Up Talonflame, which is already quite sad to begin with, considering how much defensive Fire-types usually suck. Of these, only Arcanine reliably counters the SubPunch set as well. Heatran is smashed by Focus Punch, and Talonflame can't break the subs and is 2HKOed by Focus Punch.
(Oh yeah: Mawile is a sweeper/cleaner, it's not really prone to being worn down during the match. At least, not as prone as the walls/statusers that are supposed to check it :) )
Personally, I can see no way in which Mawile could be healthy for the OU tier. It has truly obscene power, complemented by strong priority, and can set up on almost every physical attacker in the tier if need be, barring a few really powerful supereffective ones. Don't get me wrong, I know I'm not the best player and I'm always open to better players telling me new ways to counter this thing. However, if the best they can come up with is Counter Skarmory, then that worries me.
O-kay, I've been waiting for this for some time and imo this thing simply has to go. This thing has been steamrolling me every single time I faced it, unless my opponent didn't bother to set up fsr. I'm not a very good player, so I thought the more expert players had found more reliable ways to play around this thing, but when I asked in the SQSA thread if somebody knew even a decently reliable counter, the best answer I got was Counter Skarmory of all things >.>
Imo, the combination of absurd power, Intimidate, and strong priority break this thing.
I know raw power is usually a bad argument to ban something, but I think this is an exceptional case. To illustrate my point, I would like to provide two calcs from a situation that happened to me quite some time ago:
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 204-242 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (standard spread has about this much HP EVs iirc)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Effectively, this means Mawile can use the third strongest Earthquake in OU as setup bait (after Diggersby's and Landorus-T's) in a pinch and proceed to clean up. (I know this example is generally not advisable, but it works perfectly fine if the opponent's priority users and Sucker Punch resists have been removed). I'd like to stress that we're talking about a 100BP super effective STAB move here coming off 135 base Attack - but if Excadrill KOes an opponent or spins the previous turn, there's literally nothing to stop Mawile from switching in, Intimidating, and proceeding to wreak havoc. Its pre-Mega ability, Intimidate, allows it to set up on virtually any physical attacker after coming in on a free turn.
I also would like to point out some parallels with a blatantly broken threat that has already been banned a long time ago.
1) The raw power of its attacks is too much for the OU tier
<...>
With a virtual base Attack of 213, factoring in Parental Bond, the only Pokémon that can afford to switch into this monster with relative ease are: Cofagrigus, Sableye and a very healthy Gourgeist. Everything else is immediately obliterated by Mega Kanga's attacks. Other gimmick strategies to stop it are Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin (or Iron Barbs) users like bulky Garchomp and Ferrothorn, that use Mega Kanga's ability to hit twice against it;
2) Mega-Kangaskhan is nearly impossible to revenge kill
Sucker Punch at +2 kills pretty much every wanna-be revenge killer. Pokémon like the Lati twins, the genies, Focus Sash Alakazam and even Genesect (with the X/Y Steel nerf) are all OHKO'd before they can even scratch Mega Kanga. Furthermore, Mega Kanga's 105/100/100 defences are nothing to laugh at, and even when uninvested, they give Mega Kanga excellent survivability. Basically, Mega Kangaskhan's offensive checks are restricted to strong and fast Fighting types such as Terrakion and Mega Lucario;
3) Mega-Kangaskhan limits team building
Like the 5th Generation Excadrill, Mega-Kanga severely limits team bulding, forcing the player to run dedicated, obscure Pokémon (with the exception of Sableye) to avoid getting swept by it. And, in the case of Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin users, the player is usually just trading their check in order to have Mega-Kangaskhan kill itself through passive damage.
<...>
With a virtual base Attack of 213, factoring in Parental Bond, the only Pokémon that can afford to switch into this monster with relative ease are: Cofagrigus, Sableye and a very healthy Gourgeist. Everything else is immediately obliterated by Mega Kanga's attacks. Other gimmick strategies to stop it are Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin (or Iron Barbs) users like bulky Garchomp and Ferrothorn, that use Mega Kanga's ability to hit twice against it;
2) Mega-Kangaskhan is nearly impossible to revenge kill
Sucker Punch at +2 kills pretty much every wanna-be revenge killer. Pokémon like the Lati twins, the genies, Focus Sash Alakazam and even Genesect (with the X/Y Steel nerf) are all OHKO'd before they can even scratch Mega Kanga. Furthermore, Mega Kanga's 105/100/100 defences are nothing to laugh at, and even when uninvested, they give Mega Kanga excellent survivability. Basically, Mega Kangaskhan's offensive checks are restricted to strong and fast Fighting types such as Terrakion and Mega Lucario;
3) Mega-Kangaskhan limits team building
Like the 5th Generation Excadrill, Mega-Kanga severely limits team bulding, forcing the player to run dedicated, obscure Pokémon (with the exception of Sableye) to avoid getting swept by it. And, in the case of Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin users, the player is usually just trading their check in order to have Mega-Kangaskhan kill itself through passive damage.
Of course, Khan is more broken than Mawile and comparing these points one on one is guaranteed to bring some logical flaws, but especially the first two points are pretty telling, considering Mawile is simply stronger than Kangaskhan:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 373-441 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 672-792 (222.5 - 262.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 792-932 (262.2 - 308.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The unnuanced (the nuance is coming, dw) point I'm making is: if Mega Khan's sheer power against physical walls and revenge killers was reason enough to ban it, there is no reason to keep Mega Mawile - arguing against this would simply be arguing against mathematics. Fortunately, unlike Mega Khan, Mawile doesn't hit twice and is outsped by some walls. Also, Mawile is slightly less bulky than Khan, although this is mitigated by a much better defensive typing and Intimidate. Finally, Mawile is much more reliant on Sucker Punch, although this isn't that bad if a +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes basically anything that doesn't resist it :)
Being a subpar player, I don't want to make any too firm statements regarding the third point, because I'm sure expert players have come up with better ways to cover Mawile than I have. I would, however, like to address some Mawile counters I've heard mentioned.
-Skarmory: If SR is up, Skarmory is OHKOed by +2 Fire Fang. If SR is not up, Skarmory can either phaze Mawile - which doesn't solve anything, Mawile can simply come back later, the only difference being it has no Intimidate to turn basically every physical attacker into setup bait - or Skarmory can survive with Sturdy and Counter Mawile's Fire Fang. While this does defeat Mawile, this would qualify as 'trade one's check in order to have Mega Mawile kill itself' (see point 3 Khan) and it draws uncanny parallels to Haze Unaware Quagsire, in that one is running a completely counterproductive move on a mon that is already starved for moveslots. (Counter works in order to retaliate less powerful physical attacks and then Roost off the damage - when using it to force your own physical wall into a one for one trade, I consider this counterproductive :) )
-Heatran: the standard specially defensive set with Toxic is highly shaky. +2 Sucker Punch does ~80% of damage, whereas Lava Plume has only a small chance to OHKO in return after SR (without SR, an OHKO is impossible). Any offensive set is cleanly OHKOed by Sucker Punch after SR (97% minimum damage). Heatran only reliably beats it if it runs Will-O-Wisp, while it would prefer to run Toxic in order to be more effective on stall and for crippling walls and because it already has Lava Plume in order to spread clutch burns.
-Rotom-W: I've heard this thing is a counter to Mawile, considering it can reliably burn it. While this is true, that's frankly all it can do. If Mawile sets up on the switch, even a burned Play Rough hits physically defensive Rotoms for ~70% damage, bringing it in Sucker Punch's KO range. Therefore, after burning it, Rotom has to switch out and leave the rest of its team to deal with a Mawile that's still just as strong as before setting up; effectively, burning only resets the Swords Dance. Mawile has been crippled in the sense that it can't really switch out anymore, but it still hits like an angry killer bull on steroids. Rotom is as much of a counter to Mawile as Sableye was to Mega Khan; it can burn it, but that's basically it. Iirc, in Khan's case this wasn't considered to be enough.
Afaik, Swords Dance Mega Mawile's reliable counters are limited to a few defensive Fire-types, most notably Arcanine, Heatran, and Bulk Up Talonflame, which is already quite sad to begin with, considering how much defensive Fire-types usually suck. Of these, only Arcanine reliably counters the SubPunch set as well. Heatran is smashed by Focus Punch, and Talonflame can't break the subs and is 2HKOed by Focus Punch.
(Oh yeah: Mawile is a sweeper/cleaner, it's not really prone to being worn down during the match. At least, not as prone as the walls/statusers that are supposed to check it :) )
Personally, I can see no way in which Mawile could be healthy for the OU tier. It has truly obscene power, complemented by strong priority, and can set up on almost every physical attacker in the tier if need be, barring a few really powerful supereffective ones. Don't get me wrong, I know I'm not the best player and I'm always open to better players telling me new ways to counter this thing. However, if the best they can come up with is Counter Skarmory, then that worries me.
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I know its not gonna happen, but i realy feel like Sucker Punch should be banned instead of Mawile. The guessing games it creates all the time are probably the biggest reason to ban it and they are all due to Sucker Punch. Whats more, Mawile would be far from broken without its broken priority and even if we ban mawile we can still guess our asses of against Bisharp who is just as annoying.
Heatran, Zard X, Zard Y, Landorus T. Quagsire, Rotom W. Mawile have counters, is not as dangerous as people think, this is so stupid as banning of Aegislash.
Yeah I think its obvious that mega mawile has great stats, great defensive typing, obscene power, etc etc. We all know that. But again I want to focus on a more legitimate topic, the 50/50s.
Now basically when that mega mawile gets to +2 and you're chilling with a weakened Sash SD chomp (lets say in kill range of a +2 sucker) this is where 50/50s start. You can play rough predicting him to sd predicting your sucker, or you can sucker to play it safe if you haven't scouted its set, etc etc. Sub doesn't ease this 50/50s, it just extends it; all mawile has to do is play rough. Switching doesn't ease the 50/50s at all because what the fuck is taking a +2 play rough from mega mawile jesus absolutely nothing.
But I want to capitalize on that last part.
Bisharp causes a fair amount of 50/50s with its SD set too; how is that any different?
What makes the difference is power.
Mega mawile just has so much power backing its 50/50s that if you guess wrong you basically just lose. When it comes to maybe a sp. def hippo or what not answering to a SD bisharp, and its at full health, all you have to do is eq. There's nothing else involved, bisharp just simply isn't strong enough or bulky enough to force those kind of guessing games. But when you talk about mega mawile jesus crap this thing will push your shit in if you guess wrong.
Basically, when mawile grabs a boost (between the best defensive typing in the game and intimidate its not too difficult) the game is kind of reduced to 50/50s. The outcome of the game ultimately depends on EITHER player guessing correctly, and whoever does indeed win the 50/50 will probably have the entire game tipped in his/her favor, if not just win the game right there. These 50/50s are far more important than the petty ones created by aegislash.
That's whats kind of unique about mega mawile tho: the 50/50s are in nobody's benefit, unlike with aegislash. Its just pure guessing, and honestly, that makes it even worse. So basically I'd ban mega mawile on the basis of creating too many 50/50s that are too important.
Now basically when that mega mawile gets to +2 and you're chilling with a weakened Sash SD chomp (lets say in kill range of a +2 sucker) this is where 50/50s start. You can play rough predicting him to sd predicting your sucker, or you can sucker to play it safe if you haven't scouted its set, etc etc. Sub doesn't ease this 50/50s, it just extends it; all mawile has to do is play rough. Switching doesn't ease the 50/50s at all because what the fuck is taking a +2 play rough from mega mawile jesus absolutely nothing.
But I want to capitalize on that last part.
Bisharp causes a fair amount of 50/50s with its SD set too; how is that any different?
What makes the difference is power.
Mega mawile just has so much power backing its 50/50s that if you guess wrong you basically just lose. When it comes to maybe a sp. def hippo or what not answering to a SD bisharp, and its at full health, all you have to do is eq. There's nothing else involved, bisharp just simply isn't strong enough or bulky enough to force those kind of guessing games. But when you talk about mega mawile jesus crap this thing will push your shit in if you guess wrong.
Basically, when mawile grabs a boost (between the best defensive typing in the game and intimidate its not too difficult) the game is kind of reduced to 50/50s. The outcome of the game ultimately depends on EITHER player guessing correctly, and whoever does indeed win the 50/50 will probably have the entire game tipped in his/her favor, if not just win the game right there. These 50/50s are far more important than the petty ones created by aegislash.
That's whats kind of unique about mega mawile tho: the 50/50s are in nobody's benefit, unlike with aegislash. Its just pure guessing, and honestly, that makes it even worse. So basically I'd ban mega mawile on the basis of creating too many 50/50s that are too important.
Referring to Arcanine in defense of Mawile is really absurd, and works against the claim you make that it isn't overpowered. The fact that Arcanine, an otherwise mediocre pokemon that's pretty damn unviable in OU, has become a legitimate pick solely because it can deal with mawile, is a testament to how unhealthy Mawile is for the metagame. When you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to reliably deal with one, individual pokemon, that pokemon is probably too strong.
It's also silly to suggest that getting rid of Mawile will make stall more dominant. Let's be real. Mawile doesn't just have its way with stall. Mawile takes a huge crap on offense, too.
I have no major problem with Mega Mawile in OU. It has loads of checks in Rotom-W, Lando-T, Mega Manectric, Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, etc. Each set has its check, just like the majority of popular Pokemon in OU. It can be hard for certain teams to handle, but that's just how it goes; most teams have a weak spot. I peaked at 1735 on the ladder, and never has Mega Mawile given me any hint that it was broken. It's not fair to say that "this thing obviously needs to go to Ubers" when a bunch of people are disagreeing with you. Be constructive and state WHY it's obvious before making a blanket statement.
Your "beast" can be stopped with fire special attacks uy are abundant in the goal and that was the great thing Mawile to ban them.
This is one Pokemon that definitely is not ban worthy. Any Pokemon that isn't weak to Sucker Punch and packs a super effective move checks this thing and while it only has two weaknesses they are to the common Fire and Ground type attacks. I think it is worth noting that physically defensive Rotom-W can switch in to Mega Mawile pretty easily and burn it with Will-O-Wisp very easily or predict its switch and Pain Split the switch in(assuming you took a Play Rough, for example) or attack the switch in. Any Mega Mawile lacking Focus Punch is shut down by air balloon Heatran, and Mega Mawile honestly stands no chance against Hippowdon unless it gets a free SD in which case it is still unlikely to OHKO(6.3% chance) and will still take quite a lot of damage from Earthquake. Resttalk Gyarados is also a pretty reliable switch in
Mega Mawile is one of those Pokemon that you can very much prepare for in team preview, I know that I rarely have issues against it because of this fact.
Mega Mawile isn't that bulky at all honestly, I think a lot of people are forgetting that its base HP is a pathetic 50 which makes even neutral attacks on both the physical and, especially, the special side inflict a rather sizable chunk of damage or allow it to be revenge killed. Here's a few notable calcs
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 129-153 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While it often claims at least one Pokemon, the same can be said for Black Kyurem but I highly doubt he is anywhere near the list of suspects.
I've also felt that Mega Mawile has the same issue as Lucario does; 4 slot move syndrome. No matter what set you run on Mega Mawile, there is always going to be a plethora of Pokemon that can and will shut you down.
Without Fire Fang Mega Mawile loses to most Steel types
Without Stone Edge Gyarados(especially resttalk) and Talonflame get to switch in for free and threaten with Earthquake and Will-O-Wisp/Flare Blitz respectively
Without Earthquake or a predicted Focus Punch all forms of Heatran, and I am sure plenty of others, demolish it.
Mega Mawile is one of those Pokemon that you can very much prepare for in team preview, I know that I rarely have issues against it because of this fact.
Mega Mawile isn't that bulky at all honestly, I think a lot of people are forgetting that its base HP is a pathetic 50 which makes even neutral attacks on both the physical and, especially, the special side inflict a rather sizable chunk of damage or allow it to be revenge killed. Here's a few notable calcs
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 129-153 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While it often claims at least one Pokemon, the same can be said for Black Kyurem but I highly doubt he is anywhere near the list of suspects.
I've also felt that Mega Mawile has the same issue as Lucario does; 4 slot move syndrome. No matter what set you run on Mega Mawile, there is always going to be a plethora of Pokemon that can and will shut you down.
Without Fire Fang Mega Mawile loses to most Steel types
Without Stone Edge Gyarados(especially resttalk) and Talonflame get to switch in for free and threaten with Earthquake and Will-O-Wisp/Flare Blitz respectively
Without Earthquake or a predicted Focus Punch all forms of Heatran, and I am sure plenty of others, demolish it.
Heatran is wrecked by SubPunch, Zard X cant switch into Play Rough especially with SR up, Zard Y is not reliable because of SR, Landorus T I agree but it is more of a hard check, Quagsire is 2hkoed and Rotom Wash can burn but cannot switch into Mawile.
i used to have no issues with mega mawile in the metagame, but recently i've come to realize just how ridiculous this thing is. this pokemon is the literal definition of broken, and is heavily detrimental to a balanced ou tier.
how does stall beat mega mawile? you can use charizard x and ~check~ it. somehow venusaur is supposed to handle it but lol it gets raped by sd mawile? you can use wisptran + hp fire amoonguss/venu and pivot into amoonguss/venu in order to figure out its set. you can use taunt willo victini (personally my preferred stall build in this meta is monte cristo's with mola > quag as it's so much less raped by matchup). you can use defensive charizard y, which does stuff outside of mawile, but ultimately wouldn't really be used if mawile didn't exist and speaks to how crazy it is to deal with mawile. or, you can go the complete shit route and use some crap like arcanine or moltres. i'm NOT saying it's impossible to deal with mawile, but if you actually want to beat it somewhat reliably, then these are basically your only options. you see how limited the options really are to deal with mega mawile, where you generally have to run inferior sets and even pokemon just to deal with it.
how does bulky offense/offense beat mega mawile? defensive landorus-t and balloon wisp tran are good checks...end list. offense basically makes sacs every single time mega mawile comes in. there are some 50/50s involved but ultimately it comes down to risk/reward plays where you can't bring in keldeo because oh, bisharp will rape your ass if you do, and mawile keeps netting kills. you're also forced into a lot of plays because, oh, mega mawile can sucker punch kill your lando, switch right? oh wait, if it sets up an sd it sweeps your ass, better stay in and die to a sucker punch so it can't sd. other pokemon create similar situations, but with a base 259 attack stat and sucker punch as powerful as blackglasses bisharp, mega mawile forces many more of them. what i'm trying to explain is that unlike a lot of other pokemon, mega mawile has the bulk, the typing, the power, and the priority that prevent offensive teams from handling it reasonably. there are plenty of things that can get kills every time vs offense, but all of these pokemon can be revenge killed pretty easily, which mega mawile can't be. it should be noted that offensive teams also suffer from a lot of 50/50 bs, which often results in enormous shitfests particularly towards the end-game.
mega mawile has it all. it has arguably the best defensive typing in the game, the best attack stat, a spammable stab, wicked strong priority, good matchups vs all teamstyles, the ability to sweep given but one free turn, and to lure and kill its counters while sacrificing almost no overall effectiveness. it obliterates defensive teams while simultaneously bringing offensive teams down to their knees. i could see people debating aegislash's impact on the tier and whatever, but mega mawile is flat-out broken and therefore needs to be banned.
how does stall beat mega mawile? you can use charizard x and ~check~ it. somehow venusaur is supposed to handle it but lol it gets raped by sd mawile? you can use wisptran + hp fire amoonguss/venu and pivot into amoonguss/venu in order to figure out its set. you can use taunt willo victini (personally my preferred stall build in this meta is monte cristo's with mola > quag as it's so much less raped by matchup). you can use defensive charizard y, which does stuff outside of mawile, but ultimately wouldn't really be used if mawile didn't exist and speaks to how crazy it is to deal with mawile. or, you can go the complete shit route and use some crap like arcanine or moltres. i'm NOT saying it's impossible to deal with mawile, but if you actually want to beat it somewhat reliably, then these are basically your only options. you see how limited the options really are to deal with mega mawile, where you generally have to run inferior sets and even pokemon just to deal with it.
how does bulky offense/offense beat mega mawile? defensive landorus-t and balloon wisp tran are good checks...end list. offense basically makes sacs every single time mega mawile comes in. there are some 50/50s involved but ultimately it comes down to risk/reward plays where you can't bring in keldeo because oh, bisharp will rape your ass if you do, and mawile keeps netting kills. you're also forced into a lot of plays because, oh, mega mawile can sucker punch kill your lando, switch right? oh wait, if it sets up an sd it sweeps your ass, better stay in and die to a sucker punch so it can't sd. other pokemon create similar situations, but with a base 259 attack stat and sucker punch as powerful as blackglasses bisharp, mega mawile forces many more of them. what i'm trying to explain is that unlike a lot of other pokemon, mega mawile has the bulk, the typing, the power, and the priority that prevent offensive teams from handling it reasonably. there are plenty of things that can get kills every time vs offense, but all of these pokemon can be revenge killed pretty easily, which mega mawile can't be. it should be noted that offensive teams also suffer from a lot of 50/50 bs, which often results in enormous shitfests particularly towards the end-game.
mega mawile has it all. it has arguably the best defensive typing in the game, the best attack stat, a spammable stab, wicked strong priority, good matchups vs all teamstyles, the ability to sweep given but one free turn, and to lure and kill its counters while sacrificing almost no overall effectiveness. it obliterates defensive teams while simultaneously bringing offensive teams down to their knees. i could see people debating aegislash's impact on the tier and whatever, but mega mawile is flat-out broken and therefore needs to be banned.
I just came to Smogon to check up on things and I saw Aegislash banned, like seriously? It wasn't that tough to beat, even if it did had many different sets.
As for this next suspect, I can see why Mega Mawile would be banned.
It has high attack stat, and ok defense. But it has poor HP, and not to mention its slow.
Sucker Punch checks many things, but its not stab and many Pokemon can get an easy switch in if you expect a Sucker Punch.
Substitute can be a pain for a Focus Punch set up, but remember this, most of these don't run Swords Dance...so you might want to have checks or sacrifices for this one...which many don't like the idea.
Lastly, there are many great Pokemon that checks this thing. Fire Types like Entei or Talonflame can kill this thing, many other Pokemon have Earthquake, and don't go crying about the SubPunch, we have Ghosts for that...which leads to a Sucker Punch...but you could set up your own Substitute like Gengar for instance.
Overall, Mawile saw the light to bringing it back to the metagame. With this ban, we see many others being banned as well...we already taking care of Aegislash, so this is like a spring breeze...don't go ban crazy.
Mawilite, should not be banned.
As for this next suspect, I can see why Mega Mawile would be banned.
It has high attack stat, and ok defense. But it has poor HP, and not to mention its slow.
Sucker Punch checks many things, but its not stab and many Pokemon can get an easy switch in if you expect a Sucker Punch.
Substitute can be a pain for a Focus Punch set up, but remember this, most of these don't run Swords Dance...so you might want to have checks or sacrifices for this one...which many don't like the idea.
Lastly, there are many great Pokemon that checks this thing. Fire Types like Entei or Talonflame can kill this thing, many other Pokemon have Earthquake, and don't go crying about the SubPunch, we have Ghosts for that...which leads to a Sucker Punch...but you could set up your own Substitute like Gengar for instance.
Overall, Mawile saw the light to bringing it back to the metagame. With this ban, we see many others being banned as well...we already taking care of Aegislash, so this is like a spring breeze...don't go ban crazy.
Mawilite, should not be banned.
Hi.
For starters, Mawile is incredibly powerful, has a great ability pre-Mega in Intimidate and great typing which, coupled with its great offensive presence, give it numerous set up oportunities, and has a wide array of options which allow it to deal with the vast majority of its sets, adding to unpredictability. Simply put, only three OU-viable Pokémon can switch in on Mawile and win regardless of its coverage move: bulky Mega Charizard Y, bulky Talonflame (assuming no Stealth Rock) and bulky Landorus-T (lacks recovery). There is absolutely no way you can tell for sure if Mawile is running Substitute, Focus Punch, Swords Dance, Iron Head, Fire Fang, Pain Split, Knock Off or any of its other possible options, all of which can defeat would-be checks such as Heatran and Skarmory (Focus Punch), Mega Venusaur (SD + Iron Head), Victini (Knock Off), Mega Scizor (Fire Fang) and Ferrothorn (Fire Fang/Focus Punch). While Mawile can't run everything at once, it can defeat at least one of those "checks" most of the time. Some variations even forgo Play Rough to use an extra coverage move and lure in even more of its possible checks (i. e. you see a SD Mawile with Iron Head and instantly switch out to Mega Scizor assuming it has SD/Play Rough/Iron Head/Sucker Punch, only to be crushed by a +2 Fire Fang).
People are saying the Meta has to settle down after the Aegislash ban, which is true, but it barely affects this Suspect Test, at all. Aegislash was actually one of the few good answers to Mawile, and having it gone means Mawile can actually stop running Knock Off most of the time, making it even more frightening.
The best way to defeat Mawile is to have a fast, dark-resisting attacker that can take a Sucker Punch (see: Keldeo, Greninja, Terrakion), sack something to break its Substitute or apply offensive pressure to it so you can revenge kill it with the attackers previously mentioned. This is incredibly specific and you are usually forced to sack something simply to force it out. Like I said before, Mawile also has an incredible offensive presence, forcing a lot of switches which can be used either to launch its ridiculously powerful attacks or set up. Mawile can also work consistently through a match, being decently durable.
That's why I think Mawilite should be banned.
For starters, Mawile is incredibly powerful, has a great ability pre-Mega in Intimidate and great typing which, coupled with its great offensive presence, give it numerous set up oportunities, and has a wide array of options which allow it to deal with the vast majority of its sets, adding to unpredictability. Simply put, only three OU-viable Pokémon can switch in on Mawile and win regardless of its coverage move: bulky Mega Charizard Y, bulky Talonflame (assuming no Stealth Rock) and bulky Landorus-T (lacks recovery). There is absolutely no way you can tell for sure if Mawile is running Substitute, Focus Punch, Swords Dance, Iron Head, Fire Fang, Pain Split, Knock Off or any of its other possible options, all of which can defeat would-be checks such as Heatran and Skarmory (Focus Punch), Mega Venusaur (SD + Iron Head), Victini (Knock Off), Mega Scizor (Fire Fang) and Ferrothorn (Fire Fang/Focus Punch). While Mawile can't run everything at once, it can defeat at least one of those "checks" most of the time. Some variations even forgo Play Rough to use an extra coverage move and lure in even more of its possible checks (i. e. you see a SD Mawile with Iron Head and instantly switch out to Mega Scizor assuming it has SD/Play Rough/Iron Head/Sucker Punch, only to be crushed by a +2 Fire Fang).
People are saying the Meta has to settle down after the Aegislash ban, which is true, but it barely affects this Suspect Test, at all. Aegislash was actually one of the few good answers to Mawile, and having it gone means Mawile can actually stop running Knock Off most of the time, making it even more frightening.
The best way to defeat Mawile is to have a fast, dark-resisting attacker that can take a Sucker Punch (see: Keldeo, Greninja, Terrakion), sack something to break its Substitute or apply offensive pressure to it so you can revenge kill it with the attackers previously mentioned. This is incredibly specific and you are usually forced to sack something simply to force it out. Like I said before, Mawile also has an incredible offensive presence, forcing a lot of switches which can be used either to launch its ridiculously powerful attacks or set up. Mawile can also work consistently through a match, being decently durable.
That's why I think Mawilite should be banned.
I'm not even going to comment how I feel about Mawilite because I'm against the nature of this suspect test as a whole.
I'm all for testing potentially broken stuff, but we haven't even let the meta breathe after the Aegislash ban. It's only been a few days since we put that ban in place and now we're testing something else? This isn't how a suspect test should ever be conducted. Give it time, let the community observe how the meta is without Aegislash. The meta could do with a couple of weeks of observation. This is legitimately being banhappy, and it's not a healthy way to conduct suspect testing.
Actually, OU Council (and Smogon as a whole) needs to learn from how Konami deals with the Yu-Gi-Oh metagame. Konami takes their sweet time to learn how the meta is affected by new cards every three months or so, and Yu-Gi-Oh has thousands of cards to deal with, with at least a hundred new ones every three months.
I'm all for testing potentially broken stuff, but we haven't even let the meta breathe after the Aegislash ban. It's only been a few days since we put that ban in place and now we're testing something else? This isn't how a suspect test should ever be conducted. Give it time, let the community observe how the meta is without Aegislash. The meta could do with a couple of weeks of observation. This is legitimately being banhappy, and it's not a healthy way to conduct suspect testing.
Actually, OU Council (and Smogon as a whole) needs to learn from how Konami deals with the Yu-Gi-Oh metagame. Konami takes their sweet time to learn how the meta is affected by new cards every three months or so, and Yu-Gi-Oh has thousands of cards to deal with, with at least a hundred new ones every three months.
I never trusted smogon in the first place but this is below them tbh. Tons of stuff wreck it and if you honestly think its that big of an issue it can easily be countered, for example use a friggin will o wisp (infiltrated) chandelure and it's a goner. In all honesty this isn't even needed cause when you use like a land-t with any bulk it loses anyways. Also for you guys who say the 50/50 is too much STOP PLAYING COMPETITIVE POKEMON. Sub-punch mega mawile can get walled by stuff like skarm and swords dance loses to a friggin will o wisp. This ban is friggin outrageous and in all honesty there are pokemon wayyyy worse in todays metagame like mega medicham, the fact you suspected this first is just mind-blowing.
I've seen head on what mega mawile can do and to be totally honest its just the every day sweeper, bisharp gets a boost way more, can sucker which is somehow broken even tho its what the meaning of competitive pokemon is in the 50/50. I never use mega mawile in the first place but if it should be banned i think i would've realized it the second i played it, its just as good a set up sweeper as lets say rock polish landorus which hits mad hard and can wreck shit up, should it be banned tho? Of course not and neither should this.
I've seen head on what mega mawile can do and to be totally honest its just the every day sweeper, bisharp gets a boost way more, can sucker which is somehow broken even tho its what the meaning of competitive pokemon is in the 50/50. I never use mega mawile in the first place but if it should be banned i think i would've realized it the second i played it, its just as good a set up sweeper as lets say rock polish landorus which hits mad hard and can wreck shit up, should it be banned tho? Of course not and neither should this.
Ugh, 6th gen is going from being my favourite competetive gen to my least favourite. This metagame is going to become boring and generic.
Anyway, people using the intimidate as a main reason in it's 'brokeness' are just wrong, if intimidate is used twice or more in a game it's not been a mega for at least two turns, regular Mawile doesn't live too long. Yes Intimidate makes it easy to switch in on a physical attacker and set up but this is a one time opportunity once it's phased it's phased. Mawile is in my experience a lot easier to deal with after that. Steel types wall it and if you fear the sub/punch you can phase it. Prediction is key in dealing with Mawile and if you're ready and smart, like Aegislash, you can deal with it. Mawile is good, slow, reliant on priority and like most pokemon hard to deal with if you let it set up, there are so many other set up pokemon that aren't broken and are more durable than Mawile i;e Mega Scizor. Do not ban, i'm tired of this domino effect in the metagame and I fear now Aegislash has been removed a lot of other pieces are about to fall. Do Not Ban
*Two weeks after Mawilite ban*
Latios/Latias Suspect Test
Anyway, people using the intimidate as a main reason in it's 'brokeness' are just wrong, if intimidate is used twice or more in a game it's not been a mega for at least two turns, regular Mawile doesn't live too long. Yes Intimidate makes it easy to switch in on a physical attacker and set up but this is a one time opportunity once it's phased it's phased. Mawile is in my experience a lot easier to deal with after that. Steel types wall it and if you fear the sub/punch you can phase it. Prediction is key in dealing with Mawile and if you're ready and smart, like Aegislash, you can deal with it. Mawile is good, slow, reliant on priority and like most pokemon hard to deal with if you let it set up, there are so many other set up pokemon that aren't broken and are more durable than Mawile i;e Mega Scizor. Do not ban, i'm tired of this domino effect in the metagame and I fear now Aegislash has been removed a lot of other pieces are about to fall. Do Not Ban
*Two weeks after Mawilite ban*
Latios/Latias Suspect Test
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 224-266 (73.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zard X lear Will-o Wisp in the defensive set
Quagsire is for Sword Dance and lear Stockpile
Rotom bur Mawile
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 468-552 (121.2 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 404-476 (135.5 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 340-401 (114 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 255-300 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 454-535 (141.8 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (+1 because of the intimidate drop after SD)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 247-291 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quagsire is the only thing that mawile can't OHKO at normal attack or after a SD boost, so I'm not sure what your point is.
stop making the argument that tran is killed by sub punch. if mawile runs sub punch it has other counters. its not like it can have 3 different sets at once. a good player would scout and make plays according to the set
You say stall won't become more dominant without one of the biggest wallbreakers in the tier? Just because it craps on offence doesn't mean that stall won't flourish with it being gone.
Comments in Bold.
Never has there been a mon w 0 counters like this, mawile is akin to dpp Mence n bw lando except imagine those 2 got fucking priority that hits most the tier for neutral coverage. U niggas rlly lettin this shit stay after banning aeg? This shit makes aegi look like fuckin forretress cuz his effective attack is fucking 270 base,,,, 2 fuxking 70 that's higher than magikarps bst and we all know how great karp is. 0 counters. Fast sd I head beats physdef venu, sub punch or fpunch beats tran, knock + 2 rocks and a sucker beats tran too. Fire beats steels, the only semi reliable check is like max def zard y or talon or arcanine but Theyr still catchin knocks to the dick. Fuxk this pile o shit mon, this shit is 50% responsible for the dickass 5050 metagame that is xy ou. Fuck mawile
To the nighas cryin about stall flourishing, here's a quick check: mawile does much more damage to offense than stall. Also why the fuck aren't u scared of actual stall breakers like fucking medicham or her across or gardevoir who all gained popularity due to aegi being gone. In terms of stallbreakig those 3 outclass mawile by far
To the nighas cryin about stall flourishing, here's a quick check: mawile does much more damage to offense than stall. Also why the fuck aren't u scared of actual stall breakers like fucking medicham or her across or gardevoir who all gained popularity due to aegi being gone. In terms of stallbreakig those 3 outclass mawile by far
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Several of these threats outspeed mawile, how about some calc on Sucker Punch?
If the Mawile sets up a Substitute or goes straight for Focus Punch as you switch in Heatran that's gg.
WoW Zard-X still can't afford to switch into Play Rough or Focus Punch because they can both kill it after rocks/invite a 50/50 with Sucker Punch.
Play Rough 2HKO's Quagsire regardless and lolStockpile.
And Rotom-W gets caught in the same trap that Heatran does.
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