np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[KeepAegiBanned]

Banning Mega Mawile would be blind sighted in my opinion. It is banning based on stats rather than calculations and usage. Skarmory-heatran core beats it, as if it subs, you got out into skarm and continually roost, passively killing it with rocky helmet. Haze tentacruel beats it, living sucker punch, breaking the sub with scald, and then continually wearing it down, mixing in status moves for free recovery. Stall Zard X can beat it with 220+ defense, willoing it if it is sd mawile, or fire punch + roosting if it is sub punch. If gliscor already has its orb off, it can beat it 1v1. Mega Venusaur is a switch in when carrying eq, which is intelligent to do anyway due to heatran. Against HO, it's hardly ban worthy, as it is hard for it to set up before getting a free mega evolution, and gets ohko'd by garchomp, the zards, the landos, mamo, drill, and heatran. With any decent hit, hp fire greninja, tyranitar, specs keldeo, terrakion and medicham can finish it off. When the majority of OU pokemon can 2hko you(29 out of 47), and you are relatively predictable, you should not be banned IMO.
Edit: Also, it doesn't cause centralization issues since any faster WOW user can usually check it.

 

[KonigSniper]

(Note: I'm mainly focusing on the SD/Fire Fang/Play Rough/Sucker Punch set, considering this is its considered its best set and that I could already write an essay about how retarded this sole set is. Also, I'm usually assuming a +2 Mawile, considering the counter has to switch in and Mawile can use an astounding array of physical attackers as setup bait)
O-kay, I've been waiting for this for some time and imo this thing simply has to go. This thing has been steamrolling me every single time I faced it, unless my opponent didn't bother to set up fsr. I'm not a very good player, so I thought the more expert players had found more reliable ways to play around this thing, but when I asked in the SQSA thread if somebody knew even a decently reliable counter, the best answer I got was Counter Skarmory of all things >.>
Imo, the combination of retarded power, Intimidate, and strong priority break this thing.


Afaik, Swords Dance Mega Mawile's reliable counters are limited to a few defensive Fire-types, most notably Arcanine, Heatran, and Bulk Up Talonflame, which is already quite sad to begin with, considering how much defensive Fire-types usually suck. Of these, only Arcanine reliably counters the SubPunch set as well. Heatran is smashed by Focus Punch, and Talonflame can't break the subs and is 2HKOed by Focus Punch.

(Oh yeah: Mawile is a sweeper/cleaner, it's not really prone to being worn down during the match. At least, not as prone as the walls/statusers that are supposed to check it :) )

Personally, I can see no way in which Mawile could be healthy for the OU tier. It has truly obscene power, complemented by strong priority, and can set up on almost every physical attacker in the tier if need be, barring a few really powerful supereffective ones. Don't get me wrong, I know I'm not the best player and I'm always open to better players telling me new ways to counter this thing. However, if the best they can come up with is Counter Skarmory, then that worries me.

Arcanine so far is probably the best and most reliable counter to M-Mawile I've ever seen/used. Arcanine not only does a good job countering M-Mawile but it's also really good at putting some holes in your opponents teams. The set I use for Arcanine is Life orb Flare Blitz/Extreme Speed/Will-O-Wisp/Close Combat 0 Hp/0 def/252+ atk/252 speed. Arcanine works well in about every situation here as it resists both of M-Mawile's STABs and can burn it while it tries to set up/Sucker punch. I have a few damage calcs showing Arcanine at work.

(Assuming Arcanine comes in goes straight for the kill)
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 132-156 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 111-132 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Arcanine destroys M-Mawile with flare blitz

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 55-66 (17.1 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 26-31 (8 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 66-78 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Arcanine laughs in your face and obliterates your mawile.

At best Arcanine may get hurt a bit but will absolutely beat that Mawile.

 

[DoW]

From what I've seen, Mawile is less versatile than other mons that have been banned with only two real sets: SD and SubPunch. This makes it easier to play around than things like Aegislash which could run SubTox for what otherwise countered it, Mandibuzz, or Kangaskhan where it could turn out to run Seismic Toss / Wish rather than a more offensive team. However, this doesn't make it easy to counter.
With intimidate and a strong defensive typing it can quite easily get either a SD or Sub up, or simply hit the switch-in hard then switch out again. Moreover while things like Heatran deal with the (probably more common) SD set, the SubPunch set simply laughs at this. At the same time, counters to the SubPunch set can find themselves unable to do anything when Mawile is at +2, and trying to phaze at that stage is going to leave your phazer on very low health so that next time Mawile switches in, it'll be even harder to deal with.
The only argument against this is how slow it is, and of course Sucker Punch isn't reliable for example against Will-o-Wisp users. However, it has enough offensive presence to deal plenty of damage to things on the switch before switching out itself, and its teammates can often take advantage of these pokes having to keep their HP high to remain a counter.
For these reasons, I think its offensive presence is too strong in the metagame and so a ban would be the best thing.

 

[G-Beast]

Heatran is wrecked by SubPunch, Zard X cant switch into Play Rough especially with SR up, Zard Y is not reliable because of SR, Landorus T I agree but it is more of a hard check, Quagsire is 2hkoed and Rotom Wash can burn but cannot switch into Mawile.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Burn it thereafter or predict switch and Pain Split/Hydro Pump/Volt Switch etc.

Don't you dare tell me that physically defensive Rotom-W is niche. It may be less common than specially defensive but is definitely NOT niche.

EDIT: I strongly believe that 4 slot move syndrome is a very big point about Mega Mawile that warrants discussion because, as I said in my original post, no matter what set you run on Mega Mawile there will ALWAYS be more than one Pokemon that will give you trouble based on what move(s) you decided to forego.

 

[higglybiggly]

My opinion is probably shared with a lot of other users so I'm sort of reiterating whats a lready been said but whatever.

First things first, its typing. With two immunities and a shit ton of resistances this motherfucker can already switch in on a plethora of attacks (without mega evolving) and still take the hit quite nicely with the nice intimidate. And god help you if it gets a free switch in to your choice locked talon flame or keldeo. People say that "oh well this shit beats it one on one cuz it can survive a sucker punch and OHKO with some SE move" but NO. M-Mawile is not involved with those 1v1 situations. M-Mawile comes in on all the pokemon it CAN force out and then proceeds to fuck over the switch in. So unless you're using a team where everysingle pokemon beats it one on one in most situations you're gonna have a mighty hard time dealing with this OP shit.

Next thing, its set. the sub punch set is the reason this shit is getting suspected right now. Substitute was MADE for M-Mawile. that shit comes in on your ferro/t-flame/keldeo/lat@s/chansey/breloom/conkeldurr/whatever (you get my point) then that mofo sets up a substitute on your switch in, and proceeds to fuck shit up. Your heatran gets fucked, your scizor gets fucked, your quagsire gets fucked, your clefable gets fucked, YOU get fucked. This fairy with ass teeth WILL kill one of your pokemon.

one of its few counters in OU is Lando-t, but it has no recovery and is very easily worn down between play rough and sucker punch. Add in stealth rocks and itreally only comes in once to counter Mawile.

Bulky Talonflame is the next counter and probably the best one, but it requires defog support so switching in could be a complication. but assuming there is none (and max def and hp) it takes less than 50% from a play rough as well as a focus punch, roosts till either M-Mawile misses, goes for a sucker punch, or if you have enough health to live the focus punch and recoil. After that the will o wisp comes and you're all set. but noone wants to fuckin run a max def t-flame. If its come to that to stop mawile then the shit needs to be banned.

ONE MORE THING. not that it really needs any support but slap a latias with healing wish and you've got yourself some INSANE hullabaloo.

So in conclusion between its typing, pre ability in intimidate, and physical bulk, M-Mawile finds it self easily "setting up" on a lot of pokemon and then fucks shit up with its immediate offensive presence so BAN

 

[call me a god]

Yes mawile is versatile but it's not like it's going to have 4 sets at once during a match. The whole point of this game is to predict and make plays that is why this is a strategy game. When your opponent has a Mawile you scout the set an then make the right plays. Something simple as just keeping up rocks and offensive pressure by double switching can win you the game. I'm tired of people saying this thing has no fucking counters. Well the only way to truly counter it is by your play styles, your plays and your thought process. This is what makes this game fun. Everyone would quit this game by now if this game didn't require any thinking and it was just one on ones or 50-50s the whole game. You as a player do what's best for you to try to win the game

 

[Jobes]

I'm loving the new efficiency in these suspect tests. Keep it up, let's clean up OU as much as we can so that we can enjoy it before everything changes with OR/AS.

I always figured M-Mawile would be suspected before Aegislash, so this comes as no surprise. Mega Mawile is, as the title suggests, a wrecking ball. There are plenty of checks to each set, but requiring a scouting process that takes two or three turns is undesirable, because Mawile's gargantuan attack stat and great attacks will make every single one of those turns count. If it gets in on one of the many pokémon it stops nicely, the switchin will be met with a strong Play Rough, or more likely, a Substitute. I've found sub not only to be the most common at high levels of play but far and away the most effective set for Mawile. Being behind a Sub allows Focus Punches, slow coverage moves that would otherwise leave Mawile vulnerable to be outsped and OHKOed, as well as making the only solution for the opponent to be attacking Mawile. Since opponents can't WoW you behind your sub, they are forced to attack, letting Sucker Punch be far more reliable.

Mawile certainly has the versatility, but I believe even without it M-Mawile is a problem. I plan to vote ban.

 

[UBERPYRO]

"Without Mega Mawile Stall with dominate!"

There are still other, in fact better stallbreakers in the tier. Most prominently Heracross, but remember we still have mew, lando-i, kyurem-b, gothitelle, megacham ect. In fact, the Aegi ban hurt stall really bad, since it released half those things. Banning MMawile will make stall... playable. There's still plenty of stuff to deal with it. Stall will just be more balanced out :)

 

[RedxThree]

I swear if I see one more post about "50/50s" in a suspect thread I'm going to lose my shit. This argument is 100% irrelevant to any mon not named Aegislash so don't even bother mentioning it now or ever again.

Sucker Punch or not, there are tons 50/50's in this game. And there have always been 50/50's. The only reason this topic is even discussed is because:

1. Aegislash's ability to abuse this mechanic to its advantage was so blatantly obvious that most everyone agreed that the 50/50's were inherent when facing it.

2. A select few users brought the above issue up in Aegislash's suspect thread, followed by the ENTIRE FUCKING PRO-BAN SIDE OF THE COMMUNITY reciting this beaten, dead horse of an argument all over the forums and Showdown, until it became blindly applicable to any mon who's tactics involve any form of risk. (I was for banning Aegi, btw. This isn't out of anger of it beng banned.)

Mawile has a MUCH greater risk factor in these mind games than Aegislash did, as it will easily get either crippled or wrecked by a good portion of the tier if your prediction doesn't pan out. This true for Bisharp and any other Sucker Punch user. Sucker Punch has just as much potential for a risk as a reward.

Watch as the anti-ban side takes this point and turns it in their favor, saying "Maw doesn't cause 50/50's like Aegis so it belongs in OU!" Gimme a break lol.

Anyway, I am pro-ban through and through. This isn't a suspect test that could go either way or causes us to redefine how we classify a mon as broken. It has no counters, and I say that in the old sense of what we used to deem broken. It has no solid answers. Absolutely NONE of Mawile's switch-ins can swap in and avoid facing incredible risk, including Heatran, Talonflame, Skarmory and any other supposed answer to it. It wrecks every playstyle and is just plain ridiculous. Ban this shit.

PLZ feel free c/p or like this post in response to this stupid ass logic that we as a community are substituting for fact.

 

[Flexxen]

Not surprising at all to see MegaMawile getting suspect tested as well.

I've been using MegaMawile on my HO team the entire time to get the reqs for the Aegi suspect and I have to admit that this thing is f*ckin stupid.
A ridicolous amount of power, which it can boost even further with SD; one of the best typings in the game, good bulk, the opportunity to set up on so many physical attackers thanks to Intimidate and Sucker Punch to make up for its only con - the lack of speed.

I hardly recall any matches from the previous suspect where Mawile didn't punch any holes in my opponent's team and the only times it didn't do much was due to me getting the worse end of the Sucker Punch 50:50s. Some might argue that Mawile's lack of speed and it therefore being forced to rely on Sucker Punch prevents it from being broken but for me that's just yet an other unhealthy aspect of MegaMawile because it's so easy to set up to +2 with it and then proceed to muscle your way through entire offensive and weakened balanced teams if you get like 3 or 4 50:50s right (SP on attack, Play Rough if no attack).

An other thing is its coverage, Mawile basically has all the attacks it needs to get past anything which could attempt to wall it. If SR are up, Skarmory, arguably the best physical wall in the game, switches in on Mawile's SD just to get OHKO'd by Fire Fang, MegaScizor and Ferrothorn meet the same fate. Heatran get's OHKO'd by Focus Punch, Iron Head can get you past MegaVenu and everything else gets destroyed by Play Rough or hates switching in on it, like Lando-T.

And then there is its bulk, which is the final nail on its broken sign, I've done stuff like send Mawile in on a Air Balloon SR Excadrill after it killed one of my mons, take the EQ and OHKO it with Fire Fang and then usually something else has to take a decent or good chunk from Sucker Punch to get rid of MegaMaw. That is pretty much the strongest EQ in OU (besides the rather rare Adamant MaxAt Lando-T) and even with a LO Exca only has a 25% chance to OHKO MegaMaw thanks to Intimidate (-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 265-315 (87.4 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO).

That's just too much if you ask me, something with such an Attack stat should never have this kind of bulk + this kind of coverage + a way around it's only con and shouldn't be so easy to abuse. Sorry Mawile, I really had fun using you but as far as I'm concerned you deserve to be banned from OU.

 

[Tesung]

Everyone is in agreement but this is the most broken mon we've had besides gar and kanga. No good switchins and even shit like venu +wow tran can lose to iron head + focus punch. This mon is fun as hell to use but clearly broken, the sd set is the best and fucks every single playstyle, but sub set is obnoxious too and can take momentum and get like 3 kills ez if you just think it's sd and act accordingly. Not to mention that it gets intimidate premega and tanks shit like life orb terrak cc ez even without intimidate

 

[SpeedBlaziken]

1- Mawile is a great pokémon with a great type ( Steel / Fairy ) but not OP in my opinion.

2- Arguments:

Againts: Mawile has the potential to 2HKO a lot of pokémons with the SD or the sub+focus punch set. eg: can 2hko Landorus-T if it doesn't a the 252hp + 252 def ev spread (even with intimidate). It can OHKO's Landorus-I with play rought (68.8 % chance).

Focus punch can OHKO Heatran, Chansey and Ferrothorn.

Slowbro can't really wall Mawile-Mega5 since it has Sucker Punch and Play Rought has a 30.5% change to 2hko so, in that case, you need to pray for a burn with Scald.

Scarf Terrakion's EQ can't OHKO it.

Mawile's great typing and Intimidate before mega.

In favour: Mawile has a lack of hp and some decent SpD but so it is vulnerable to some special attacks. Eg: Heatran can check it depending on the set it uses.

Rotom-W can burn it since Sub Focus Punch mawile doesn't carry more speed than Rotom-W but you need to remember that Sub block status.

Choice Specs Noivern can try to revege kill it cause it has Flamethower and Infiltrator and it's not expected by most of players. Sucker Punch is a problem too.

Landorus-T counter since it since Mawile-Mega 3HKO at -1 and Gliscor can check it.

Intimidate users and T-Wave / Will-o-Wisp users helps to defeat Mawile later.

Sub Disable Gengar counters it cause no one runs knock off on Mawile ¬¬ eeeeeeeeh.

Mawile only has 2 sets (SD and Sub Focus Punch), not like Aegislash, so it can be easily predicted (at least for me).

3- Conclusion: Mawile is great pokémon but because of it lack of speed and Hp I think that, with some skill, can be killed.

 

[Typhlosion130]

well lets see.
burn stall can easly wreck it.
earth quake garchome (and mega garchomp) takes it out. any fire type that can survive a succer punch and hit it can ohko.
heck most steel types can just go wreck it.
hight def. ground types can wreck it.
if it can survive a succer punch most pokemon that can learn a fire or ground type move and use it effectivly can OHKO
or put it too sleep.
its not OP
it has so many coutners
learn the pokemon before calling it OP

 

[call me a god]

I'm about to lose my shit no one runs iron head fp play rough and sucker on the same set that set is aids. Just because mawile can beat its checks doesn't mean it's broken. Ok so Latios can beat it's check bis harp with an hp fighting does that mean it's broken? You guys should actually make plays to win a match instead of sitting here and crying about how mega Mawile is ruining ou.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

well lets see.
burn stall can easly wreck it. I already said almost any Physical attacker has the same case
earth quake garchome (and mega garchomp) takes it out. Intimidate?
any fire type that can survive a succer punch and hit it can ohko. Most fire types aren't going to be able to take a sucker punch though
heck most steel types can just go wreck it. Mawile destroys steel types not named Heatran with Fire Fang, and Heatran with Focus Punch
hight def. ground types can wreck it. Not sure about that one
if it can survive a succer punch most pokemon that can learn a fire or ground type move and use it effectivly can OHKO
I will give you this when its STAB, but otherwise Mega Mawile could survive and kill you
or put it too sleep.
What other than a resttalker is not harmed by sleep? Sleep clause exists for a reason you know
its not OP
Even before I was on the pro ban side I thought it was OP, but really you should not use opinions for your arguments, an argument is pretty much you explaining your opinion on a matter with facts
it has so many coutners
Not really, it only has a couple
learn the pokemon before calling it OP

Comments in bold

 

[Akiii]

I think the reason why so many people don't like Mega Mawile is that it's good at doing its job, which is breaking walls with that huge attack stat. It also has the arguably best typing in the game and (most of the time) Intimidate before going mega so there will often be good opportunities to switch it in.
However, I honestly don't think Mega Mawile should be banned. Many people here just throw around random calcs and think numbers alone are a good argument.
It has the highest possible attack stat in the game, so obviously if you look only at the numbers it seems like it can kill everything but Mawile still has a few weaknesses that make it balanced in my opinion. The reason so many people have trouble with it, is that it punishes poor teambuilding and poor predictions.
It's not very fast so many things can burn or sleep it before it has a chance to do anything, something that is very commonly used is Rotom-Wash. It can Will-o-Wisp Mawile before it can retaliate but that's just one example. Other things you can do against Sucker Punch are Substitute, Whirlwind (to get rid of potential SD boosts), Sleep Powder and faster priority (even though most of them won't do much damage), even Disable on a faster mon works but I am aware of the fact that not many people want to run this, that's just what I can think off right now. When it's statused you get your chance to hit it back or force a switch.
So in my opinion there is enough counterplay to Mega Mawile and it only punishes people for teambuilding poorly so this is why I think it should not be banned.

 

[haunter]

Ok, this thread turned into complete garbage in less than one hour. Stop making one liners and stop bitching about the Suspect Process. We absolutely don't care if you don't like that we're testing Mega-Mawile, we're gonna test it regardless.

Starting from now, I'll just delete and infract every uninformed, angry, or just content-less post. OU moderators are invited to do the same. Subject 18, ShootingStarmie, reyscarface, alexwolf, Chou Toshio.

 

[Terminate421]

Comments in bold

Sucker Punch creates mind games.

The WHOLE META GAME is based on mind games. Being able to out predict the opponent on the move is pretty much what you have to do to avoid getting a nasty hit with a dark-type move.

This isn't Kings Shield seeing as how Sucker Punches are something you can easily work around.

 

[X5Dragon]

While Mawile may not seem to have that much great impact on team building as other suspects before him had (fast hard hitting mons, dark resists and intimidate users are all common and for good reasons), it has sufficient set up opportunities and the OP ability (~270 base attack) and moveset (Fire Fang, Sucker Punch and Play Rough) to destroy most of OU after a single boost bar maybe 2 or 3 pokemon. Not to mention the typing that allows it to freely switch into Dragons and resist the most used priority attacks in the meta.

And unlike other suspect tests I really think it is that simple. Ban.

 

[Geopolitics]

Ok so I'm gonna make my post and then get out of here before this thread inevitably turns cancerous.

My Opinion

Hide

ban pls

Pro Ban Args

Hide

1. No counters - Skarm = Fire Fang, Heatran = SubPunch, Ghost types = Sucker Punch. Mawile forces enough switches that it can exploit whatever comes in by handily setting up a Sub. Even Skarm can be beat by SubPunch (252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 177-209 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) meaning that it CAN'T switch in again and means Mawile doesn't even need Fire Fang. Those saying "get good and scout the set" essentially lose because if you go out to Pokemon Y to scout Mega Maw's moves then it can set up a sub and RIP in pieces one Pokemon on your team.

2. God Status typing - Not as good as Aegi, but still amazing - immunity to Dragon (meaning a free sub on Outrages and Scarfed Dragons) and Poison (no Toxic Stalling/TSpikes) means that Mawile has plenty of opportunities to get up a Sub.

3. Forces a "perfect game" - This is an argument that I haven't heard a lot of so far. Mega Mawile forces the opposition into playing a perfect game, which is humorously unbalanced. If you give Mega Mawile ANY breathing room, it can run train on your entire team. Literally all it needs is a Sub to steamroll 90% of the meta.

4. Power > Bulk - Mega mawile has great power and slightly subpar Spdef bulk, but you need to weigh the arguments of Power MORE than bulk. Tons of OP Pokemon (M-Khan, M-Blaze) don't have amazing bulk yet are some of the best Pokemon that we've seen to date. Power is what really matters for an offensive Pokemon. If we were talking about a wall with subpar special bulk, then Bulk > Power. That's not the case.

5. It has more power than MEGA KANGASKHAN (credit to The Dutch Plumberjack for calcs here)

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 373-441 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

6. Nearly impossible to Revenge Kill - Sucker Punch. Need I say more?

7. Versatility - SD, Fire Fang, SubPunch, Play Rough, Iron Head, Knock Off, Stone Edge/Rock Slide are all option to muscle through counters.

Answers to No Ban Args

Hide

1. "It has checks" - yeah, so does Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir. That doesn't mean that these things aren't good. In order for Mawile to stay we need evidence that it has counters - Pokemon that can reliably switch in to Mawile, regardless of the set, that can take the hit and KO.

2. "But Will-O" - Every physical attacker can be hurt by WoW. This is assumed for every Physical threat barring Zard X. Also Mawile has Sub meaning that it can avoid the WoW.

3. "Low HP, SpDef, Spe" - It makes up it's lack of bulk with existential power. SubPunch beats literally all the counters, and it forces enough switches that it can usually scoop up a sub and do some work.

4. "Ground/Fire Omnipresence" - Refer to Aegi suspect
ps I may come back to edit/add more answers once more args have been voiced

BAN

 

[Typhlosion130]

well lets see.
burn stall can easly wreck it. I already said almost any Physical attacker has the same case
earth quake garchome (and mega garchomp) takes it out. Intimidate? its a garchomp. you'd expect maxium attack stat. plus you could switch into a gachomp avoiding intimidate and if its a succer punch mawile you win there
any fire type that can survive a succer punch and hit it can ohko. Most fire types aren't going to be able to take a sucker punch though hetran, camrupt, emboar, talonflame and more are bulky enough to survive
heck most steel types can just go wreck it. Mawile destroys steel types not named Heatran with Fire Fang, and Heatran with Focus Punch you sure? aggron (possibly mega) with earthquake can both survive a physical attack even super effective due to sturdy and filter, and has the attack to ko it. and same with many other steel types.
hight def. ground types can wreck it. Not sure about that one a stab earth quake or earth power could beat it.
if it can survive a succer punch most pokemon that can learn a fire or ground type move and use it effectivly can OHKO
I will give you this when its STAB, but otherwise Mega Mawile could survive and kill you mawile has physical def. not as much sp. def. flame thrower, eruption, etc.
or put it too sleep.
What other than a resttalker is not harmed by sleep? Sleep clause exists for a reason you know yea well you people have banned so muchat this point counters like this are not able to be used. you ban too mcuh makeing the ballance be shoved out the window.
its not OP
Even before I was on the pro ban side I thought it was OP, but really you should not use opinions for your arguments, an argument is pretty much you explaining your opinion on a matter with facts
it has so many coutners
Not really, it only has a couple
learn the pokemon before calling it OP


BOTTOM LINE IT IS NOT OP

 

[KeepAegiBanned]

Sigh. Its attack stat should never be mentioned, instead its damage output should. Talonflame, sableye, quagsire, clefable, and steelix(highest defense stat in the game, nu pokemon) show how little stats truly mean compared to movepool, typing, and the current metagame (not saying pro or against, just making this point).

 

[Da Pizza Man]

well lets see.
burn stall can easly wreck it. I already said almost any Physical attacker has the same case
earth quake garchome (and mega garchomp) takes it out. Intimidate? its a garchomp. you'd expect maxium attack stat. plus you could switch into a gachomp avoiding intimidate and if its a succer punch mawile you win there Your probably going to die to Play Rough though, that move is incredibly risky
any fire type that can survive a succer punch and hit it can ohko. Most fire types aren't going to be able to take a sucker punch though hetran, camrupt, emboar, talonflame and more are bulky enough to survive Emboar and Camerupt are not OU Viable and Talonflame is not bulky, so its probably going to die. Heatran I can give you but I said most
heck most steel types can just go wreck it. Mawile destroys steel types not named Heatran with Fire Fang, and Heatran with Focus Punch you sure? aggron (possibly mega) with earthquake can both survive a physical attack even super effective due to sturdy and filter, and has the attack to ko it. and same with many other steel types. Mawile can't OHKO Aggron, but the same goes for the other way around, Mawile can just Sucker Punch turn 2
hight def. ground types can wreck it. Not sure about that one a stab earth quake or earth power could beat it. I will give you that, but Mawile can just Sukcer Punch
if it can survive a succer punch most pokemon that can learn a fire or ground type move and use it effectivly can OHKO
I will give you this when its STAB, but otherwise Mega Mawile could survive and kill you mawile has physical def. not as much sp. def. flame thrower, eruption, etc. Sucker Punch?
or put it too sleep.
What other than a resttalker is not harmed by sleep? Sleep clause exists for a reason you know yea well you people have banned so muchat this point counters like this are not able to be used. you ban too mcuh makeing the ballance be shoved out the window.
its not OP
Even before I was on the pro ban side I thought it was OP, but really you should not use opinions for your arguments, an argument is pretty much you explaining your opinion on a matter with facts
it has so many coutners
Not really, it only has a couple
learn the pokemon before calling it OP


BOTTOM LINE IT IS NOT OP

 

[qpie]

Alrighty, a few quick pre-ladder thoughts.

Mawile hits like a truck and has no safe counters. That much isn't up for debate.

However I am not entirely convinced this alone is enough to warrant. Maybe we should just move on already and accept that the age of counters is long gone. Nowadays the majority of offensive threats has practically no safe switch-ins anymore. That alone can no longer be reason enough to ban anything.

Now there are two major things which set Mawile apart from other top tier offensive threats. First of all it does not have to resort of weird - arguably subpar - coverage moves let alone bait sets to get past its alleged counters. All of its sets are perfectly viable in their own right. None of its coverage moves ever really impair its overall effectiveness just to break a single specific wall.

But more importantly Mawile has access to a strong priority move. Mere minutes into this discussion Mawile has already been compared to Medicham and Heracross and it isn't hard to see why. However unlike those two other behemoths Mawile has a way to overcome its less than decent speed. Sucker Punch.

Now while this might sound like Mawile is awfully broken we have to keep in mind it has a bunch of perfectly viable checks. Your generic semi-bulky Ground types which just about any balanced/ offensive team tends to run do well against it. All of them can OHKO it and easily take a (+0) Sucker Punch. Then there is a bunch of Pokemon which resist Sucker Punch and are able to KO Mawile with minimal prior damage while being able to switch into all of its moves but Play Rough. Finally you have anything even moderately fast with Will-O-Wisp which at the very least forces Mawile into a 50-50. It is in fact possible to play around it.

It should also be noted that as amazing as Sucker Punch is it really isn't a reliable move by any stretch of imagination. In the case of Mawile the same can be said for Substitute (and Swords Dance). Even with its amazing typing it is still fairly frail and generally has a hard time finding free turns to set up without misplays on your opponent's part. Hell, it has a hard time hard switching at all.

With that said, I can definitely see why people want it gone so badly and am leaning towards a ban myself. Shit's strong, yo. I am however determined to primarily base my vote on the state of the suspect ladder instead of dry theorymoning.

Tangentially related rant on ''50/50''s

If your prediction works out it was a #play.
If it doesn't it was a shitass 50/50 (and/or your opponent is fucking trash for making the wrong play).

Yeah, no. That's not how it works.

King's Shield an outlier. An exception. Nothing more. Generally speaking there is nothing wrong with situation in which there is no "correct play".

They have always existed. They are an inherent part of this game.

Your opponent setting up a Substitute as you switch or hitting your switch-in with a "random" move is not the cancer killing the metagame.

Also Sucker Punch becomes easy to deal with if you just run Substitute on everything. It's the best move anyway, okay?!.

 

[Thorn Aernought]

This is easy. Honestly, I'm wondering why it took so long. I mean, it's already been a few days since the Aegislash ban. I mean, the entire point of that was to ban more things. We can't ban the things that wreck defensive playstyles if they have viable checks and counters. An offensive meta is a ridiculous meta. I'm just glad that the rest of the S-Rank will be banned soon enough. Once they're gone, mega-heracross and the like will be easy to ban. Despite featuring the uncompetitive charizard-x, here is something we should all aspire to: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-12817
If you're going to vote no ban, please don't bother with the reqs, we don't want an overinflated ladder like we had with the keldeo suspect test.