np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[Temporelucis]

Just gonna leave some calcs...
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 95-112 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 97-115 (29 - 34.4%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO (With STAB boost)

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 222-262 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 216-255 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (180 Base Power with STAB Boost)

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 222-262 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 211-249 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recover

I know this doesn't have much correlation but I just wanted to put into a perspective the retarded power that Mega Mawile possesses, without any set up it has the same power as the most powerful physical attackers in the entire game and possibly the best typing as well.
After a SD with priority it's just gross imo

 

[Fuisonpower53]

Why is everyone talking about stall-breaking Skarmory/Chansey and a possible suspect of Charizard-X?

Let's get back on topic.

Mega-Mawile, although a massive threat that no one wants to switch into, is NOT worthy of a ban.
Now before you go and think "Well, nothing wants to switch into an attack" you must also think of how you can play mind games with your opponent using a Mawile.
Expecting an SD or a Substitute rather than a sucker punch, one can attack a Mawile rather than just switch out while praying that it will attack or not.

This topic delves into the whole 50/50 debate. Essentially the point of Mawile's priority move Sucker Punch is a 50/50, and that is what makes it a risk-reward move.

Sucker Punch is standard on every Mawile set, so you can almost guarantee that as long as you have something that can take at least a Sucker Punch and hit back hard, it will be guaranteed to end Mawile's reign of terror.
Ex. Greninja, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, Keldeo, etc.

Will-o-Wisp is common and even Scald and Lava Plume carry the chance to burn. Although stall complains about this, that is the point of Mega-Mawile and other Megas such as Heracross, Medicham, and Gardevoir.
IT IS A STALLBREAKER/WALLBREAKER.
It was meant to hit hard.

Plus, Mawile's speed and bulk are god awful and merely adequate. Nothing too phenomenal in the regards of taking hits and being phased out if it must. Sucker Punch further increases the paranoia of players using Mawile as they are uncertain of a status move, attack, or simple phasing.

Honestly, I just think that Mega-Mawile is overrated.
It is ridiculously strong yes, but nothing that can't be handled by the current meta.

Mawile has really good defences
stas 125/95. The problem is not that you can play around it but its lack of counters. Your naming pokemon that can check it.

 

[Parker.]

Why is everyone talking about stall-breaking Skarmory/Chansey and a possible suspect of Charizard-X?

Let's get back on topic.

Mega-Mawile, although a massive threat that no one wants to switch into, is NOT worthy of a ban.
Now before you go and think "Well, nothing wants to switch into an attack" you must also think of how you can play mind games with your opponent using a Mawile.
Expecting an SD or a Substitute rather than a sucker punch, one can attack a Mawile rather than just switch out while praying that it will attack or not.

This topic delves into the whole 50/50 debate. Essentially the point of Mawile's priority move Sucker Punch is a 50/50, and that is what makes it a risk-reward move.

Sucker Punch is standard on every Mawile set, so you can almost guarantee that as long as you have something that can take at least a Sucker Punch and hit back hard, it will be guaranteed to end Mawile's reign of terror.
Ex. Greninja, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, Keldeo, etc.

Will-o-Wisp is common and even Scald and Lava Plume carry the chance to burn. Although stall complains about this, that is the point of Mega-Mawile and other Megas such as Heracross, Medicham, and Gardevoir.
IT IS A STALLBREAKER/WALLBREAKER.
It was meant to hit hard.

Plus, Mawile's speed and bulk are god awful and merely adequate. Nothing too phenomenal in the regards of taking hits and being phased out if it must. Sucker Punch further increases the paranoia of players using Mawile as they are uncertain of a status move, attack, or simple phasing.

Honestly, I just think that Mega-Mawile is overrated.
It is ridiculously strong yes, but nothing that can't be handled by the current meta.

"Mawile's bulk is god awful" LMAO.

Mawile doesn't only beat stall, it beats offense too. Sucker Punch destroys the frail, speedy offensive Pokemon so typically associated with offense and they usually don't carry a Wisp user. Offensive teams have to sac something just to have a CHANCE of beating it because nothing on offense bar maybe Char-X can switch-in consistently.

 

[adamsoreos]

"Mawile's bulk is god awful" LMAO.

Mawile doesn't only beat stall, it beats offense too. Sucker Punch destroys the frail, speedy offensive Pokemon so typically associated with offense and they usually don't carry a Wisp user. Offensive teams have to sac something just to have a CHANCE of beating it because nothing on offense bar maybe Char-X can switch-in consistently.

Klyn, I meant his speed was god awful and his bulk was merely adequate respectively.
And of course some teams may have to sack a pokemon. No team is built specifically for every threat. To me, that's what competitive battling is about.

 

[Fuisonpower53]

Who cares if there are no solid counters?
That doesn't make a pokemon ban worthy.
I'm saying that Mawile can be stopped, and although it may hurt like some other wallbreakers may leave you, it can still be countered.

Hello you need a counter for a pokemon otherwise its going to get banned. Look at kangaskan it didn't have counters and it was banned. A pokemon usually gets banned when it has lack of counter. What poke can stop mawile btw

 

[Parker.]

Klyn, I meant his speed was god awful and his bulk was merely adequate respectively.
And of course some teams may have to sack a pokemon. No team is built specifically for every threat. To me, that's what competitive battling is about.

How in the hell is having to sac a a member of your team to a Pokemon with no solid counters not ban-worthy? What, in your opinion, WOULD make it ban-worthy?

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Who cares if there are no solid counters?
That doesn't make a pokemon ban worthy.
I'm saying that Mawile can be stopped, and although it may hurt like some other wallbreakers may leave you, it can still be countered.

Arceus can be stopped. Lugia can be stopped. Mewtwo Y can be stopped.. does that mean they're OU? no.. just because something "can" be stopped doesn't make it no longer broken. The problem is the AMMOUNT of pokemon that can stop it, and how well do they actually do against her in most situations. With mawile, you can have a full team of counters.. but it can sucker punch it's way through each and every one even if they resist it. Heatran can WoW all he wants, mawile can SD all she wants or even sub to avoid it on switch in and focus punch the hell of out it.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

If it's certain you will lose AT LEAST one Pokémon to it, then this thing is broken. And it really is. This is not VGC or Doubles, where you can play around Sucker Punch easily, or can just gang up against it. Singles-wise, it is too strong. It's a wonder it took this long for this thing to be suspected. I'll try to ladder this time, to be able to vote.

 

[adamsoreos]

I guess it's just my experience with it that really makes me not see it as broken.
Personally, I understand all your arguments with it as they do make sense, especially Prof. Almeida, regarding it being too strong for singles.

I have just really never had trouble with it, but that just may be an isolated case.
And by counters AND sacking a pokemon, I didn't mean it like that.
I simply meant one or the other. Sorry if it came out wrong.

Thanks for hearing out my opinion though :D

 

[ginganinja]

O.k, while I might disagree with adamsoreos, it is NO excuse for the pro ban side to use terrible arguments. This is directed at a small minority, but just be careful when debating with someone and slipping into using terrible arguments of your own, when attempting to deal with flawed arguments of theirs.

Also the next person that discusses arcanine in this thread is getting a straight up ban. I'll be moderating this thread extremely hard, so please, make sure your post is relevant, adds to the discussion at hand, and just isn't plain retarded.

Cheers.

 

[Djura]

Oh dear. I'm hoping that this thread won't be as toxic as the Aegislash one. Guess I shouldn't keep my hopes up.

Anyway, yes, Mega Mawile. To say that this thing is a monster is an understatement. While I have no experience with using SubPunch (used Swords Dance for some time), I'm aware of its raw power for both sets. Almost nothing can switch into this thing, and it even forces tons of switches itself. Furthermore, like Aegislash, it was one of those Pokemon that benefits greatly from the Steel nerf. Coupled with a near-godly defensive typing and Intimidate, one cannot hope to counter it 100% of the time. The only thing holding it back, though, is its base 50 speed, which is mostly rectified with Sucker Punch and its bulk.

Would it be possible to ban the move Sucker Punch on Mawile instead of banning Mawilite?

Sucker Punch isn't the problem by itself. There are other Pokémon that aren't as destructive as Mega Mawile alone that run Sucker Punch. I believe that was somewhat discussed with Aegislash as well, regarding King's Shield 50/50s.

I'm sorry if I'm reiterating others' arguments for a ban, but pls get this thing out of my ou because it just tears so many 'mons too many assholes.

 

[Ropeburn]

Thank god this is finally happening. Mega Mawile is by far one of the most brain dead pokemon in OU. But anyways, the problem with Mawile in my eyes is that if your team doesn't have a dedicated pokemon to take +2 Sucker Punches from Mega Mawile then you've lost. Then you remember that Substitute is also an option, and Mega Mawile is guaranteed to get a hit off without being worried about a burn. Low speed means nothing if you're behind a substitute.

Honestly, there are just not safe switch-ins to Mawile. Landorus-T loses its only form of recovery from Knock Off, Rotom-W takes an absurd amount of damage (Over 50%), and even Mega Venusuar gets 2HKO'd if you opt for Iron Head. Now obviously Mega Mawile can't run Sub, SD, Knock Off, Fire Fang, Iron Head, Play Rough and Sucker Punch all on the same set, but when a pokemon can literally choose what pokemon counter it, that's a serious problem. If this was a 1 on 1, then Mega Mawile wouldn't be as big an issue as it is. It's so easy to support Mawile, and while Mega Mawile isn't unstoppable, it's unhealthy to expect players to have multiple checks just to have a chance against Mega Mawile late game.

 

[Holy Dom]

You say stall won't become more dominant without one of the biggest wallbreakers in the tier? Just because it craps on offence doesn't mean that stall won't flourish with it being gone.

With Aegi recently banned, M-Medicham, M-Garde, M-Heracross, and even SD Terrakion got more viable. All of which put in massive work against stall. Stall isn't going to "flourish" with M-Mawile banned. It good against stall, but it doesn't solo it like SD M-Hera or Taunt M-Garde can.

Banning Mega Mawile would be blind sighted in my opinion. It is banning based on stats rather than calculations and usage. Skarmory-heatran core beats it, as if it subs, you got out into skarm and continually roost, passively killing it with rocky helmet. Haze tentacruel beats it, living sucker punch, breaking the sub with scald, and then continually wearing it down, mixing in status moves for free recovery. Stall Zard X can beat it with 220+ defense, willoing it if it is sd mawile, or fire punch + roosting if it is sub punch. If gliscor already has its orb off, it can beat it 1v1. Mega Venusaur is a switch in when carrying eq, which is intelligent to do anyway due to heatran. Against HO, it's hardly ban worthy, as it is hard for it to set up before getting a free mega evolution, and gets ohko'd by garchomp, the zards, the landos, mamo, drill, and heatran. With any decent hit, hp fire greninja, tyranitar, specs keldeo, terrakion and medicham can finish it off. When the majority of OU pokemon can 2hko you(29 out of 47), and you are relatively predictable, you should not be banned IMO.
Edit: Also, it doesn't cause centralization issues since any faster WOW user can usually check it.

Something being able to be beat doesn't change the fact that it's broken. Deoxys-A has no defenses to speak of, but it would EASILY be one of the most devastating mons in the entire tier if it were to get dropped from Ubers like Deoxys-N did at the beginning of XY OU (then got quickbanned because it's broken, regardless of its shit defenses). Tons of Ubers can get beaten 1v1 by Pokemon in lower tiers, which is why Lando-T and M-Scizor are fairly popular in Ubers.

And by the way, if Skarm is Roosting on SubPunch M-Maw then that means its only Steel type, so it will get OHKO'd by Focus Punch. Skarm+Heatran is a pretty bad core anyway since Kyu-B, M-Medi, Lando-I, Keldeo, Terrakion, and even Greninja or Mixed Thund can dismantle it on their own.

If you have to form a defensive core between two Pokemon to check one Pokemon then it's probably broken.

 

[Tyranical]

Mega Mawile does hit outrageously hard but I'm still on the fence with this suspect. Base 50 speed is god awful, it hits like a nuke yeah but so do Mega Hera and Medicham both of which are faster. That being said Mawile can pick and choose it's counters and usually if Mawile sets up something is gonna die. I hope I'm not the only one who internally screams when this thing gets behind a sub or sets up sd. Like I said I'm undecided but if I had to use one word to describe Mega Mawile it would be 'Damn'

 

[D-Ssain]

You can actually compare Mega Mawile to Mega Kengaskhan in regards to how small their number of checks and counters are. We all know how people had to run gimmicky stuff to beat Kanga which lead to its ban, albeit other factors. Mega Mawile is so similar to Mega Kanga in this regard it's not even funny. Scroll down to the Victim of the Week thread and if you read the archive its checks are Landorus and it's counters are Arcanine, Weezing and Heatran. Two of the counters are niche as all hell in ou. I love Weezing, Gen 1 Swag, but he's not a viable poke in OU and the same goes for Arcanine. Heatran its premier counter gets destroyed by SubPunch. At least Mega Kanga had an almost perfect counter in Sableye, Mawile can change its set a little bit and beat its best counter, think about that for a second. Mega Mawile's raw power is simply too much for the OU meta game and thus this should lead to people voting for it's BAN.

Also sorry for mentioning Arcanine, I had to explain how niche it is in OU.

 

[z0mOG]

Well if they ban mawilite after it and charizardite-X the meta will proly settle since thundy and lando arent really ubers material anymore (charX is pretty easy for stall teams so proly after the sad mawilite ban will the metagame finally settle

I hope you realize that Charizard-X is a direct counter to thundurus, especially the Specially defensive variants. Banning it wouldn't settle anything because this would just bring out many more broken pokemon, such as Gardevoir or Manectric (>Thunderdoge ever being broken). You can say any ban settles the meta, but all it will do is allow anything that is checked or countered by that pokemon to get stronger. Gaegislash gets banned? Gardevoir and Medicham skyrocket in usage. Lucario-M gets banned? Chansey skyrockets usage and becomes the #5 most used pokemon in OU.

 

[reyscarface]

Since it seems Haunter didnt make himself clear, ill make it even clear:

From now on every single stupid post I see I will delete and infract. Heres a good guideline for posting: If it even CROSSES your mind that your post might be even a little bit stupid, then it probably is and you sholdnt post. Think reeaaaally hard about what you want to post in this thread. No more Arcanine, no more "its sloooooow", no more "ive never had problems with it personally", no more bullshit. Im tired of people shitting on Suspect threads one at a time.

Edit: First person infracted after 1 minute of this post, this aint bullshit friends.

Oh and ESPECIALLY

NO MORE "WaW COUNCIL WTF U DOING WITH A SUSPECT SO SOON AFTER A BAN". - Hint, they know better than you.

 

[Lumari]

Mega Mawile does hit outrageously hard but I'm still on the fence with this suspect. Base 50 speed is god awful, it hits like a nuke yeah but so do Mega Hera and Medicham both of which are faster. That being said Mawile can pick and choose it's counters and usually if Mawile sets up something is gonna die. I hope I'm not the only one who internally screams when this thing gets behind a sub or sets up sd. Like I said I'm undecided but if I had to use one word to describe Mega Mawile it would be 'Damn'

Heracross and Medicham don't have a strong priority move of one of the best attacking types in the game (lol @ Bullet Punch/Vacuum Wave), so they're revenge killed quite easily, anything that tries to revenge kill Mawile and does not resist Dark (not exactly a lot does) is simply OHKOed by +2 SP - if it can even KO in return, because the thing has the best defensive typing in the game and alright bulk. Plus, they don't have Intimidate pre-Mega evo, it's not so much a matter of 'if it sets up' as much as 'when it sets up' because the SD set can set up on Balloon Excadrill if it wants to ffs. If Mawile didn't have these, my guess is we probably wouldn't be here right now.

 

[Tainic]

Mawile can break stall relatively easily with only a few Pokes that can counter it (Defensive Zard pretty much is the only thing coming to my mind atm.) and isn't that hard pressed by Offenses because of that typing and bulk allowing him to come, and, if not already done, Mega Evolve (Courtesy of Intimidate, rendering the process easier.) on many offensive Pokemons, be it Azumarill, Bisharp, Ttar, Latis, you name it. While the combinaison of raw power + bulk isn't that broken, (See Conkeldurr, Reuniclus in 5G and many many more.) Mawile takes it to the next level because of the unique perks his typing gives, his dual STAB comporting one of the best of the OUs and a Steel STAB, which while not the best, still remains decent at worst, its attack is just the icing on the cake, he doesn't even need EVs to wreck things.

Also I don't understand why are people comparing it to Hera/Medicham, they're different, Heracross doesn't have that sweet, sweet Flying, (Plus priority to manfight Talonflame.) Dark Resist, that Dragon immunity that would make it a lot better in his role of attacking tank. Neither does Medicham, who has major flaws hindering it and thus making it relatively balanced : Really average speed backed by poor defenses makes it a glass cannon nowhere near as a safe option as Mawile is in teambuilding, Mawile will never, never be useless, in the same vein Aegislash used to be.

 

[Redolent]

Might as well share my experiences with this thing.

In early XY I made a Trick Room team that did obscenely well, despite it being a barely viable playstyle, because I had Mega Mawile on this team. The set was SD / Iron Head / Knock Off / Sucker Punch. I remember lots of people bringing in their "counter" Heatran only to get OHKO'd by a +2 neutral non-STAB Knock Off. That was when I realised the power level was kind of ridiculous, because everything else got OHKO'd too, and the fun didn't end when the Trick Room did because I was still taking everything out in one shot with Sucker Punch. I didn't and still don't understand why anyone would run Mega Ampharos or Mega Abomasnow on a TR team because there is absolutely nothing that can do what Mega Mawile does in Trick Room, it even resists priority. Outside of Trick Room, Mega Mawile can actually still outspeed and OHKO Heatran with a +2 Knock Off if it runs a lot of Speed EVs and Heatran doesn't - it's not a counter.

I'm normally a stall player so my experiences since then have involved that playstyle. I knew Mega Mawile was very difficult to counter so I tried to make having that covered a priority - among all the other ridiculously powerful Megas like Pinsir and Charizard X. Unfortunately there's basically nothing that can safely counter it. I tried max/max Will-o-Wisp Mew but it loses to Knock Off and Sub. Rotom-W loses to Sub and can only switch in once, Rotom-H is dead after switching into SR + Focus Punch. Max/max Hippowdon can be OHKOd by a +2 Play Rough and also loses to Focus Punch variants without getting off an EQ. Gliscor is OHKOd by +2 Play Rough and can't KO first with Earthquake. No conventional wall was going to reliably handle this thing.

On one team I beat it by luring my opponent into using Play Rough against Gliscor and switching into Skarmory just to get off some Rocky Helmet damage and put it into Earthquake KO range. That strategy didn't always end too well.

Only Fire-types can wall Mega Mawile, but not Heatran, because of Knock Off and Focus Punch and no recovery. Not Talonflame, bulky Volcarona, Rotom-H or Mega Charizard, because they lose if Stealth Rock is up. I only found two things that wall it well: max/max Landorus-T and Arcanine. Arcanine was basically useless against any team not running Mawile, so I couldn't put it on the team without losing more games than before. Landorus-T was decent. The problem is that teams shouldn't be forced to run one specific Pokémon to safely counter another one.

Anyway, that's stall. More recently I was planning an offensive team that was going to have an Outrage user. I realised that if Mega Mawile set up a Substitute on Outrage, I was going to have to sacrifice one or two Pokémon. Nothing can safely revenge kill Mega Mawile behind a Substitute, not even Infiltrator Pokemon. I know Outrage spam is bad for the meta but this is extreme. I had 5 free teamslots and I couldn't come up with a single Pokémon that can take advantage of Substitute Mega Mawile. This thing needs just one free turn to buy a KO on anything it likes, and then some.

No team can counter everything, but basically no team can safely counter Mega Mawile at all. The reason is simple, its Attack stat is stupidly high and almost nothing can switch in consistently. We would never have allowed something this powerful, a head and shoulders above every other unboosted attacker, in previous metas before everyone decided that 700 BST Megas are really cool or something. It's unhealthy, it may not be Charizard X overpowered but it's still definitely overpowered.

---

I've had the misfortune of seeing what some other parts of the internet think of Smogon and their 'ban happy' attitude. I know these people won't see this post but still. People talk about the 'smogon elite' like it's the aristocracy or something lol. If you don't like what Smogon bans, play some games, get the reqs and then vote 'do not ban' - the people who vote what gets banned are dedicated players who understand the metagame better than randoms from Facebook and GameFAQs. It's the players themselves who decide what gets banned, not an 'elite', all you need to do is make the most solid team you can and win some games with it on the suspect ladder. If you can't do that, you're not enough of a dedicated or knowledgeable player to be criticising those who do call for bans. It's that simple.

 

[ItoI6]

No more Arcanine, no more "its sloooooow", no more "ive never had problems with it personally", no more bullshit. Im tired of people shitting on Suspect threads one at a time.

Edit: First person infracted after 1 minute of this post, this aint bullshit friends.

Why do you even bother with this thread if you don't want people to post its flaws that could prevent it from being banned...And Arcanine isn't like somebody saying that Slurpuff counters Mega-Kang, it really does hard counter mega-maw and there's nothing it can do. I know people have posted that focus punch calc of it doing a little under half but it will just willo you then morning sun + you are really saying Mega-Maw will predict perfectly with focus punch to win... It straight loses even if it predicts perfectly. You can say "I shouldn't have to run this garbo pokemon" but don't claim it has no hard counters if they exist. Lando-T with max hp/def, Rotom-H, Willo Char Y, Willo 248 HP Talon all handle it well, along with stuff that can handle specific sets like Mega-Venu with HP fire against sub punch and Counter Skarm vs SD. HO teams take a lot from sucker punch but mega-maw will always get 2 shotted at the very least while they pack a lot of things that can ohko as well. You don't win just by putting a mega-mawile on your team.

I've had the misfortune of seeing what some other parts of the internet think of Smogon and their 'ban happy' attitude. I know these people won't see this post but still. People talk about the 'smogon elite' like it's the aristocracy or something lol. If you don't like what Smogon bans, play some games, get the reqs and then vote 'do not ban' - the people who vote what gets banned are dedicated players who understand the metagame better than randoms from Facebook and GameFAQs. It's the players themselves who decide what gets banned, not an 'elite', all you need to do is make the most solid team you can and win some games with it on the suspect ladder. If you can't do that, you're not enough of a dedicated or knowledgeable player to be criticising those who do call for bans. It's that simple.

See here's my problem with that, I did get recs, and I have voted on every suspect test in ou since the mega-luc one, and I voted no-ban in every case except for genesect and mega-luc, and it feels like every time I vote on a suspect there's always some guy saying that the side that doesn't agree with top smogon players are retards who don't understand the metagame. During the last suspect test Aegislash was not going to get banned, then a bunch of posts were made about how obvious Aegislash was broken, it was a cancer, you're an idiot if you don't see that etc. etc. then a bunch of votes were changed at the last minute so a majority was reached. Like really? You really spent all that time laddering to just go with the popular opinion so you wouldn't be criticized? ok lol

As for my actual thoughts on a ban for Mega-Mawile I'd say its definitely stronger and harder to deal with than Aegislash and he got banned despite there being a whole lot less support for it than this one so I think mega-maw is definitely fucked lol its almost certainly gonna get banned. I'll get recs and vote on the issue for principle but its not going to make a difference with like an 80-90% ban majority lol dont kid yourself if you think your vote is gonna matter on this one. It's a shame too because I'm actually on the fence on if it should be banned or not because it is genuinely a very strong threat...

 

[Redolent]

See here's my problem with that, I did get recs, and I have voted on every suspect test in ou since the mega-luc one, and I voted no-ban in every case except for genesect and mega-luc, and it feels like every time I vote on a suspect there's always some guy saying that the side that doesn't agree with top smogon players are retards who don't understand the metagame. During the last suspect test Aegislash was not going to get banned, then a bunch of posts were made about how obvious Aegislash was broken, it was a cancer, you're an idiot if you don't see that etc. etc. then a bunch of votes were changed at the last minute so a majority was reached. Like really? You really spent all that time laddering to just go with the popular opinion so you wouldn't be criticized? ok lol

Fair point, people implying their opponents are idiots without making decent arguments is a big problem on both sides and Smogon definitely does have severe hivemind issues. But it's very frustrating for people who do understand the metagame well to have to keep dealing with people saying things along the lines of "lol just will-o-wisp, stupid smogon" over and over again, when if the people saying these things tried to put their "counters" into practise at higher level play, they would get destroyed. People like that are the whole reason the Victory Road forum exists, even though in many ways that forum serves to further entrench the hivemind. What I'm really trying to say is that people complaining about Smogon banning all their favourite Pokémon really ought to understand higher level play if they want their arguments to be taken seriously

The 2 posts above mine are about to get deleted but are perfect examples of the kind of false argument I'm talking about, basically amounting to "Mawile isn't broken lol just use Gliscor [not actually a counter] or Infiltrator [not actually a counter]". And then there's another one just saying "lol bunch of crybabies stop banning stuff" and not making any arguments. These things are worse for the debate than any other kind of post and unfortunately far too representative of those who oppose a ban

 

[Manzor]

---

I've had the misfortune of seeing what some other parts of the internet think of Smogon and their 'ban happy' attitude. I know these people won't see this post but still. People talk about the 'smogon elite' like it's the aristocracy or something lol. If you don't like what Smogon bans, play some games, get the reqs and then vote 'do not ban' - the people who vote what gets banned are dedicated players who understand the metagame better than randoms from Facebook and GameFAQs. It's the players themselves who decide what gets banned, not an 'elite', all you need to do is make the most solid team you can and win some games with it on the suspect ladder. If you can't do that, you're not enough of a dedicated or knowledgeable player to be criticising those who do call for bans. It's that simple.

Hello, I'm one of the randoms, I suppose XD. Then, If I don't agree with your ban, it's because you are clever, more intelligent, dedicated or wise than me? That kind of thinking has a name... maybe tyranny?

But it's okay, it's the tyranny of the wisest. Platon would be proud.

Anyway, the main problem is the goal that each one seeks in the game. I prefer to get some fun, I love to play with many differents oponentes, trying different ways to fight. Mawile is defeatable. You, me, all we have defeated dozens of mawile. Yeah, it's hard sometimes. But that's the funny part of it.

Smogon is a comepetitive site. At least, that is my impression (I have just sign up for the first time to post now). People here doesn't seeks for fun. Or rather, its fun lies only in the victory. Then, mawile it's a problem because if you don't use it, you have some small disadventage. Perhaps. Hypothetically.

We are not more or less than you. Only different.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

As for my actual thoughts on a ban for Mega-Mawile I'd say its definitely stronger and harder to deal with than Aegislash and he got banned despite there being a whole lot less support for it than this one so I think mega-maw is definitely fucked lol its almost certainly gonna get banned. I'll get recs and vote on the issue for principle but its not going to make a difference with like an 80-90% ban majority lol dont kid yourself if you think your vote is gonna matter on this one. It's a shame too because I'm actually on the fence on if it should be banned or not because it is genuinely a very strong threat...

That's the problem with this place. It becomes a giant bandwagon. People come in here neutral and leave here one sided. That's fine and all, but the thing about this thread is, you can't prove something ISN'T broken. Which is why i have never truly understood the reason behind these threads. You can give reasons why you don't think it, but the second you do someone says "well it's too versatile, it requires different counters depending on its set." So does Garchomp, so does Zard to a grater extent period. The arguments being held here are aeguments that can be made for most pokemon in the tier.

Either way, even if I'm the only one voting against this, I'm voting do not ban. It's just not as broken as everyone says it is. Yea, it hits like a truck, but so do most pokes in the tier. Its checks are a plenty and some of the more common pokes in the tier, and it's not BECAUSE of mawile. She doesn't force you to run obscure counters. She doesn't over centralize, she just hits hard. That's what this amounts to. And if this getting banned because it's a strong pokemon, that still requires skill to use may i remind you all, then OU is due to plummet, because that's what the fucking meta has become now.

 

[haunter]

He's saying to not bring up Arcanine cause there's no reason to use Arcanine in OU outside of countering Mawile. It falls under the "obscure and niche counters" category and doesn't hold any relevance in regards to Mawile's tiering in the same way as Ludicolo and Parasect don't make Kyogre fit for the OU tier. The fact that there are 1-2 Pokémon that can "counter" Mawile doesn't really matter if said Pokémon are completely unviable in the metagame of reference. If anything, the fact that you have to resort to extremely gimmick Pokemon like defensive Arcanine in order to provide an answer to Mawile is a pretty important symptom of its unhealthiness for the current OU metagame.

See here's my problem with that, I did get recs, and I have voted on every suspect test in ou since the mega-luc one, and I voted no-ban in every case except for genesect and mega-luc, and it feels like every time I vote on a suspect there's always some guy saying that the side that doesn't agree with top smogon players are retards who don't understand the metagame. During the last suspect test Aegislash was not going to get banned, then a bunch of posts were made about how obvious Aegislash was broken, it was a cancer, you're an idiot if you don't see that etc. etc. then a bunch of votes were changed at the last minute so a majority was reached. Like really? You really spent all that time laddering to just go with the popular opinion so you wouldn't be criticized? ok lol

This is actually a legitimate concern and I, for one, have been extremely annoied by how the last vote has been influenced by the mob mentality you're mentioning. For this reason, starting from the current test, voters won't be given the chance to change their vote.

Also guys, stop feeding the trolls. When you see a retarded one liner with no content at all, don't bother replying to it, cause that kind of post is being deleted and infracted.