np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

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In a straight one on one fight, Mega Charizard Y wipes the floor with Mega Mawile:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile in Sun: 534-630 (175.6 - 207.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 203-239 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course it's shaky, but not every situation is going to demand that you have to perform a switch, so Mawile isn't going to get a garunteed turn to set up every single time. It also doesn't suffer from intimidate due to using special attacks.

Is having a unshakable, 100% counter the only way to save Mawile from a ban? Because there have been plenty of suggestions that form decent checks to Mega Mawile in varying situations, but a lot of calcs are running under the assumption that Mawile will always get a turn to set up.
The thing isn't about having "100% counters". The thing about MMawile is that it has a wide array of effective weapons it can use to handle the metagame and the likes.

1) Typing to come in and set up. SubFP or SubSD or SD 3Atk or Subsplit (yes it has been tried, not popular but still seen). They are all threatening. Mawile picks its checks and that itself makes it an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS THREAT.
2) Huge Power (Post Mevo) + Intimidate (Pre Mevo). Makes it not only good on the offense but also makes it good as a pivot. The thing about MEvos is that you don't have to mega on the spot. You can choose when to Mevo and when to get the advantage on your opponent. We are arguing on the assumption that MMawile comes in Evolved or will evolve straight away. It could choose to act as a pivot/lure and switch out to others to take out the would be counters and checks. OR it can set up right there and then. You just can't tell.
3) Movepool. It has a modest movepool but a decent enough one to secure it's ability to do multiple roles.
4) I think this point has been said so many times that the argument based on this has already turned stale. It has 259 base attack factoring Huge Power. You can say that WoW cripples it, but at +2, burned mons hit for neutral.

I love MMawile a lot and was extremely excited when I saw it getting a Mega back in October when the news was leaked. I wanna keep it in OU for self use, but that would sadly be just plain selfish.

TL;DR : Ban Mawilite
 
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Mega Mawile is broken and cancerous beyond belief. It has such a great matchup vs every type of team. Lets take Gen 4 Salamence. Let's give Salamence a ridiculous attack stat in exchange for its special attack stat. Let's give it a godlike typing that lets it switch into battle in tandem with intimidate, which often gives it a free turn to set up Sub/SD. Finally, just for kicks, lets give it Sucker Punch to make it extremely hard to revenge kill. This, my friends, is Mawile. If that doesnt scream broken to you, I don't know what will. Just get this cancerous piece of shit out of OU, I want my tier to be playable.
But this isn't generation 4, so the comparison isn't really that relevant. We have Lati@s and Wobbuffet running around that was banned during that time, and plenty of pokemon in OU right now that would have been quick-banned going by Generation 4 standards. Sooner or later we are just going to have to accept the fact that Gen 4 is long gone. And it's not like stall itself is dead, even with Mega-Mawile, it's still the best playstyle in the game right now.
 
But this isn't generation 4, so the comparison isn't really that relevant. We have Lati@s and Wobbuffet running around that was banned during that time, and plenty of pokemon in OU right now that would have been quick-banned going by Generation 4 standards. Sooner or later we are just going to have to accept the fact that Gen 4 is long gone. And it's not like stall itself is dead, even with Mega-Mawile, it's still the best playstyle in the game right now.
I do accept the fact that it's not gen 4, but salamence was the best comparison I could make, because every time it came in, u had to guess what set it was, act accordingly, and hope u didn't get ur shit pushed in. and also like mawile, it could switch up coverage moves and pick what countered it. sorry if the comparison was something from like several years ago, it was the best one i could make.
 
The thing isn't about having "100% counters". The thing about MMawile is that it has a wide array of effective weapons it can use to handle the metagame and the likes.

1) Typing to come in and set up. SubFP or SubSD or SD 3Atk or Subsplit (yes it has been tried, not popular but still seen). They are all threatening. Mawile picks its checks and that itself makes it and EXTREMELY DANGEROUS THREAT.
2) Huge Power (Post Mevo) + Intimidate (Pre Mevo). Makes it not only good on the offense but also makes it good as a pivot. The thing about MEvos is that you don't have to mega on the spot. You can choose when to Mevo and when to get the advantage on your opponent. We are arguing on the assumption that MMawile comes in Evolved or will evolve straight away. It could choose to act as a pivot/lure and switch out to others to take out the would be counters and checks. OR it can set up right there and then. You just can't tell.
3) Movepool. It has a modest movepool but a decent enough one to secure it's ability to do multiple roles.
4) I think this point has been said so many times that the argument based on this has already turned stale. It has 259 base attack factoring Huge Power. You can say that WoW cripples it, but at +2, burned mons hit for neutral.

I love MMawile a lot and was extremely excited when I saw it getting a Mega back in October when the news was leaked. I wanna keep it in OU for self use, but that would sadly be just plain selfish.

TL;DR : Ban Mawilite
Fair enough, you might not want to Mega Evolve it straight away, but it has pretty meager stats outside of its Mega Evo. You would likely only be able to bring it in on a switch once or twice before its HP drops to uncomfortable levels, because its going to have to take whatever attack was aimed at its teammate that turn. So while it could probably pivot if you tried hard enough, it's much better using intimidate to force a switch or drop an opponent's attack in order to get a free setup turn or Play Rough.
 
Mega Mawile is broken and cancerous beyond belief. It has such a great matchup vs every type of team. Lets take Gen 4 Salamence. Let's give Salamence a ridiculous attack stat in exchange for its special attack stat. Let's give it a godlike typing that lets it switch into battle in tandem with intimidate, which often gives it a free turn to set up Sub/SD. Finally, just for kicks, lets give it Sucker Punch to make it extremely hard to revenge kill. This, my friends, is Mawile. If that doesn't scream broken to you, I don't know what will. Just get this cancerous piece of shit out of OU, I want my tier to be playable.
the analogy kinda falls apart after the first sentence
ANYWAYS

As everybody else has already said, Mawile is an absolute beast. Apart from its crazy attack stat, Mawile has other great advantages in its fantastic typing that makes it resist Stealth Rock and allows it to switch in to many physical attackers such as Scizor, as well as allowing it to swap in on Outrage and set up Swords Dance or Substitute to prepare for a sweep. It has pretty good 50 / 125 / 95 defenses that can help it to tank physical attacks combined with Intimidate from pre-Mega Mawile. It doesn't have as many sets as say, Aegislash, but it has enough sets to get past all(?) of its counters. Even Pokemon that live +2 Sucker Punch like Tyranitar will have trouble fighting back using non-choiced sets:

252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 214-254 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 780-920 (228 - 269%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, might be running SubPunch in which case it will be able to get past other checks such as Infernape or Heatran:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 816-961 (278.4 - 327.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 1172-1380 (303.6 - 357.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (are these calcs really necessary)

The only counter I can think of to SD + 3 Attacks is Heatran, but that is destroyed by SubPunch or Brick Break + Sucker Punch. With Aegislash gone, not a lot can really switch in to this behemoth without taking a ton of damage. The Mawile user can predict switch-ins and kill them with the right moves. Concerning Sucker Punch being out-sped, even if the opponent uses a move that outspeeds Sucker Punch, what damage can it do, there is really no priority that threatens Mawile.
IMO BAN
 
Fair enough, you might not want to Mega Evolve it straight away, but it has pretty meager stats outside of its Mega Evo. You would likely only be able to bring it in on a switch once or twice before its HP drops to uncomfortable levels, because its going to have to take whatever attack was aimed at its teammate that turn. So while it could probably pivot if you tried hard enough, it's much better using intimidate to force a switch or drop an opponent's attack in order to get a free setup turn or Play Rough.
The typing is what makes it's pivoting ability more prevalent and allowing it to get set up easily. Fairy Steel is a coveted typing that allows it to pivot despite the low HP stat. I'll give you some examples.

Latios comes in and tries to Draco, you predict and switch in Mawile. Opponent switches out into Heatran, You pivot into something like a Terrakion.
Zard X sets up DD, you predict and switch in Mawile. Opponent goes for Flare Blitz/Earthquake, You predict and pivot into relevant counter/check
Mega Scizor comes in and set-ups SD/Defog, you predict and switch in Mawile. He fears the incoming Fire Fang and switches out, you use that to regain your momentum and switch into something relevant.

Just some examples. This are scenarios favoring MMawile of course. But it is definitely good enough to show it as a Pivot due to it's typing and impeccable ability. To top off, it can run Hyper Cutter to lure in Lando-T (A WEE bit specific but still can possibly be a thing).
 
The typing is what makes it's pivoting ability more prevalent and allowing it to get set up easily. Fairy Steel is a coveted typing that allows it to pivot despite the low HP stat. I'll give you some examples.

Latios comes in and tries to Draco, you predict and switch in Mawile. Opponent switches out into Heatran, You pivot into something like a Terrakion.
Zard X sets up DD, you predict and switch in Mawile. Opponent goes for Flare Blitz/Earthquake, You predict and pivot into relevant counter/check
Mega Scizor comes in and set-ups SD/Defog, you predict and switch in Mawile. He fears the incoming Fire Fang and switches out, you use that to regain your momentum and switch into something relevant.

Just some examples. This are scenarios favoring MMawile of course. But it is definitely good enough to show it as a Pivot due to it's typing and impeccable ability. To top off, it can run Hyper Cutter to lure in Lando-T (A WEE bit specific but still can possibly be a thing).

I did have a Hyper Cutter Mawile at one point. There was some frustrations when people couldn't use their own intimidate pre Mega Evo, but it was very much a situational thing.

I understand what you mean with the pivotal situations, but if i take the second one for example. If Zard X doesn't set up DD and goes straight for the Flare Blitz, predicting you're going to switch in Mawile:

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 438-516 (144 - 169.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So yes it can be pivotal, but with team preview available it's quite easy to predict if someone was to try and bring Mawile in for an attack drop.
 
Okay. Great. Hydreigon also works as a pivot to bait fairies. He can Scarf U turn on switch for extra momentum in order to turn the tide in your favor. Does this warrant a ban?

Mega Medicham was once completely stopped by Aegislash (but... well...). Now it is one of the best wallbreakers in the game (better than Mawile IMO) with almost perfect coverage between elemental punches, ACTUAL priority with Bullet Punch, and reliable recovery as it destroys worlds with Drain Punch. Why isn't this getting banned?

Breloom works amazing with subPunch. His Toxic Heal allows him to regain all of his health lost to Substitute in 2 turns. Why isn't this banned?

Everything Mawile can do is done just as well if not better by other staples of OU.

Also, why is Talonflame not being brought up? Tflame can take at least one hit from both Play Rough and Sucker punch and Flare Blitz is an OHKO on MMawile. The more we look down the list of OU attackers, the more pokes I find that can deal with Mawile easily. The community is becoming so banhappy it's ridiculous. Take awhile and think about things before you decide to ban things that are dealt with by a simple Supereffective hit. The way the meta is being banned, my money is on Mega Medicham being banned only because Aegislash was banned and there is nothing to stop it. "Expanding the meta" my ass.
Did you read what I typed above? ._. That IS NOT the only reason for the push for ban.

- Scarf Hydreigon works as a pivot to bait in Fairies. Mawile has Intimidate and it's typing is great. That's all that needs to be said.
- Wallbreakers doesn't mean broken. Being able to effectively 2HKO the metagame and it's ease of setting up is what makes it stronger than MMedicham. MMedicham has it's pros and cons but its not the point of discussion here.
- The issue here isn't what works well with SubPunch or not. It is about how effective they are capable of using it. Breloom has the traits to make use of SubFP for sure. But does it have 259 base attack to abuse it with?
- Talonflame ..?

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 183-216 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Without even factoring in +2 MMawile can take a Flare Blitz. Meaning you can't switch it in without take a metric butt ton. Generically all Fire types can only be considered a CHECK. You are just telling us that "Oh there are other pokemons who can do this too." But the thing about MMawile is that it can do ALL OF THAT in one mon.

If it needs to go it should go. That's all there is.
 
I want to go over this again as I see this same pointless arguement over and over again.. statusing mawile..

First of all.. burn isn't going to make walling it easier. The pokemon got swords dance to negate the burn. If it's a sub-punch set while you bring in your status user then you're in big trouble. Paralysis it doesn't care about with sucker punch or general low speed reguardless, and when argueing something's viability/ban worthy we never bring up hax as a factor (crit, paralized, confusion, freeze, accuracy, etc.. swagplay was banned because the hax was mid risk extremely high reward for the user. I'm still torn why paraflinching isn't yet..)

You just burned mawile.. but unless you're running a quagsire on your team, which would be the definition of overcentralization if everybody brought a heatran+quag core just for mawile.. it's still going to break through. I also mentioned mawile gets taunt so you're not stalling it with recover. Not to mention it's perfectly viable running healing wish pokemon like latias or scarf gardevoir which wouldn't mind giving the wrecking ball a second life for their own.

Now if you put mawile to sleep which is extremely easy, she can just switch out, use something as sleep fodder, and sleep clause keeps her safe from there since all sleep inducers (breloom, amoongus, venasaur, venomoth, vivillon, roserade, smeargle, etc) don't do well against mawile on their own either.
 
It looks like the community is pretty pro-ban here, so I won't waste too much time discussing why I think it should be banned too. In a nutshell, this thing is a lot like Mega Kanga. Mega Mawile is slower and less bulky on the special side than Mega Kangaskhan, but it is more powerful and has better defensive typing along with Intimidate in base form which helps give it opportunities to set up. While Mega Mawile cannot beat everything which one moveset, Play Rough + Sucker Punch destroys most of OU and the coverage move just whittles down Mega Mawile's few counters even further. I think it has clearly been established during the tests of Mega Lucario, Genesect, Deoxys-S, and Aegislash that a Pokemon doesn't have to beat everything with one moveset to be broken, so I think it is fair to place Mega Mawile in the same boat.

Also, I would like to address the people who think we are doing suspect tests too quickly. We have not really been all that ban happy this generation when you look at what has actually been banned:

Round 1: Mega Lucario (almost unanimously banned), Genesect (Uber last gen)
Round 2: Swagger (gimmicky and uncompetitive strategy)
Round 3: Baton Pass nerf (most people didn't even use this strategy)
Round 4: Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D (both have been Uber ever since their inception in RSE)
Round 5: Aegislash (first really controversial ban this gen)

So a lot of our time this generation has been used dealing with Swagger, Baton Pass, and Ubers from previous generations. As a result, people have had plenty of time this generation to determine which new Pokemon are unhealthy for OU, and judging by the posts in this thread, this suspect test is long overdue. Mega Mawile is among the low-hanging fruit which will (probably) get landslided out of OU in a couple of weeks, so I'm looking forward to taking care of this and moving on to a more controversial suspect. For those not keeping score, so far the only new Pokemon which have been banned have been the cover legendaries (duh), Mega Gengar (this thing might even get banned from Ubers), Mega Kanga, Mega Lucario, and Aegislash. Meanwhile, 5 Ubers from last gen are in OU this gen (Manaphy, Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, and Excadrill). So our banlist isn't exploding; it just seems that way since we have been suspecting a lot of things which should have been quickbanned (though I don't blame the council for being conservative and making sure the community was behind them).

Edit @below: Mega Mawile doesn't need to go mixed. It hits so fucking hard that most physical walls are 2HKO'ed anyway.

Edit @below 2: I prefer to lump it with Mega Kanga.
 
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Other than obviously broken MKanga and Shadow Tag MGengar all the other bans have been due to unpredictability. The "a Pokemon doesn't have to beat everything with one moveset to be broken" arguement doesn't even apply to Mawile in the same way. With Mawile it's just coverage moves and SD/Sub but with all of the others it's that they had the ability to go mixed and do extremely well hitting on both sides. The 5 ubers you mentioned all dropped down because the reason they went up to ubers in the first place was because of the way they abused weather barring Landorus-I, which like most of the 6th gen bans could hit hard with both offenses.

Red Cat I'm saying it isn't fair to lump it in with Aeg, Deoxys-S, and partially MLucario.
 
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I think of Mega-Mawile in a similar vein to Gen 4 Salamence, who was banned near the end of the DPP era. DPP Mence had two great sets: DD and MixMence, both of which were equally viable. You threw out the wrong check when you saw it (without Team Preview, mind you), and you lost a real good Pokemon and would then have to potentially sac something else to get it. Every team needed at least one Mence check (since nothing effectively countered it), and often, you would have to pack two, just because running into Mence was bound to happen, and every team needed a way to beat or handle both variants.

Mega-Mawile is similar. This thing has the sheer power to wreck great defensive mons like Skarmory, Mega-Venusaur, Heatran, and Rotom-W, but it also has strong priority with Sucker Punch to really screw over offensive teams. Unlike a lot of crazy wallbreakers who can net kills at will, Mega-Mawile has priority (really good priority) to really help with its mitigating speed. It forces so many switches because of its sheer power and Intimidate in its base form, so it always has time to either boost, Sub, or just hit hard. Having low Speed isn't so bad when you have priority or force switches constantly. Mega-Mawile does both regularly..

You can scout for which set it's using, but that means throwing mons out there just to find out whether it uses SubPunch or SD 3 Attacks. You throw out Skarmory and it uses SD, and you're going to eat a +2 Fire Fang and proceed to WW it out, meaning it can still come back in to wreak havoc. You throw out Heatran while Mega-Mawile Subs, and something is going to eat an attack (whether Heatran switches out of Focus Punch or not). To be safe and "deal with it easily", you honestly run checks for both variants, and guessing wrong means you're honestly going to lose a very good Pokemon.

Mega-Mawile needs virtually no team support: hazards are pretty much a universal support. It appreciates Sticky Web or paralysis, but it doesn't need those to augment its power, just to patch up that low-Speed somewhat. After the things wreaks its havoc, other mons are free to come and clean up heavily weakened walls and checks. And while the thing hates burns, one SD negates the burn, and Healing Wish Latias can change the whole scenario, letting Mega-Mawile do its job AGAIN, but this time, on a softened-up team.

And speaking of burns, that's easier said than done. It's not like Rotom-W is straight-up switching into Mega-Mawile: that Play Rough is doing over 63% minimum to 252/252+ Rotom-W, meaning even if the thing burns Mega-Mawile, it's not really doing much the rest of the match. Mega-CharX gets smashed pretty hard too. And it's not like Mega-Mawile can't just switch out of things like EQ and WoW. Nothing is forcing it to stay in and take the burn or attack: it has its own set of teammates as well.

I love using this thing: it's a ton of fun. But it's also unhealthy for the metagame, and it's basically broken. I would have fully supported a quick-ban of this thing, but a suspect test is fine, and I hope this thing is given the boot.

BAN
 
I'm honestly becoming really disappointed with the suspects that have been brought up this generation, let alone the ban of certain things. MMawile has a massively powerful attack stat but it also has massively exploitable flaws. The first is a weakness to one of the most common physical coverage moves in the game in Earthquake, a move that always makes its way onto every team under the sun and has a good chance of landing the KO. On the topic of sun there is the other weakness, Fire. Mawile is roasted by just about any offensively invested Fire attack barring coverage HP Fires and Clefable's neutral Flamethrower. Fire attacks from some of the most common threats in OU being Talonflame and both Mega Charizard forms. Even when intimidated the most common variants of Talonflame and Zard X manage to fry her alive, the former requiring higher damage rolls to one-shot.

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 318-374 (104.6 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is a best case scenario for Mawile, when both have lowered attack stats and have had no chance to set up. At neutral both have a guaranteed OHKO on Max HP Mawile; which is uncommon as most run enough speed to outpace slower walls. Sucker Punch fails to kill either at full health, even Zard after SR, and this is assuming neither of them are running any HP investment which both are known to do. Talonflame and Charizard X can also run Will-O, while not on their flagship sets it is far from uncommon. I've made it all this way without mentioning Zard Y because I don't feel the need to argue it's ability to completely pulverize the beast. Mawile's other very exploitable weakness is it's completely garbage speed stat. No argument can change the fact that Mawile's speed is incredibly low. No Sucker Punch does not fix this. Sucker Punch definitely extends Mawile's offensive abilities but is nothing close to reliable. Non-attacking moves (like Will-O!) don't even activate it and any priority move coming from a faster Pokemon (everything) outspeeds it, again not activating it. Calling MMawile anything but a powerhouse is an understatement but it is far from broken. Like any threat it needs to be planned for when making a team or it will eat you alive with both of it's big ass mouths.



You say you need STAB and investment to OHKO Mawile as if it is never seen. Both variants of Landorus-I OHKO Mawile w/o attacking natures. Invested Landorus-T OHKO's after SR and has a very high chance w/o rocks. Even uninvested it has a chance to kill with rocks.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Nothing you mention can really safely switch in to Play Rough without being 2HKO'd on the second turn by Sucker Punch. They may be a check or counter 1v1 sure, but that isn't what we're really discussing here or why M-Mawile is up for a suspect test.

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 204-240 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 120-142 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 183-216 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 183-216 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 170-201 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 203-239 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 255-300 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 151-178 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


For a pokemon to do 50-70% damage on a incoming supposed check/counter that resists or intimidates it beyond broken. It ultimately means that everytime M-Mawile comes out you might have to sacrifice 1 pokemon on purpose or potenially be set up upon in order to revenge kill because if you switch right away your counter/check dies. That is stupid.
 
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I'm honestly becoming really disappointed with the suspects that have been brought up this generation, let alone the ban of certain things. MMawile has a massively powerful attack stat but it also has massively exploitable flaws. The first is a weakness to one of the most common physical coverage moves in the game in Earthquake, a move that always makes its way onto every team under the sun and has a good chance of landing the KO. On the topic of sun there is the other weakness, Fire. Mawile is roasted by just about any offensively invested Fire attack barring coverage HP Fires and Clefable's neutral Flamethrower. Fire attacks from some of the most common threats in OU being Talonflame and both Mega Charizard forms. Even when intimidated the most common variants of Talonflame and Zard X manage to fry her alive, the former requiring higher damage rolls to one-shot.

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 318-374 (104.6 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is a best case scenario for Mawile, when both have lowered attack stats and have had no chance to set up. At neutral both have a guaranteed OHKO on Max HP Mawile; which is uncommon as most run enough speed to outpace slower walls. Sucker Punch fails to kill either at full health, even Zard after SR, and this is assuming neither of them are running any HP investment which both are known to do. Talonflame and Charizard X can also run Will-O, while not on their flagship sets it is far from uncommon. I've made it all this way without mentioning Zard Y because I don't feel the need to argue it's ability to completely pulverize the beast. Mawile's other very exploitable weakness is it's completely garbage speed stat. No argument can change the fact that Mawile's speed is incredibly low. No Sucker Punch does not fix this. Sucker Punch definitely extends Mawile's offensive abilities but is nothing close to reliable. Non-attacking moves (like Will-O!) don't even activate it and any priority move coming from a faster Pokemon (everything) outspeeds it, again not activating it. Calling MMawile anything but a powerhouse is an understatement but it is far from broken. Like any threat it needs to be planned for when making a team or it will eat you alive with both of it's big ass mouths.



You say you need STAB and investment to OHKO Mawile as if it is never seen. Both variants of Landorus-I OHKO Mawile w/o attacking natures. Invested Landorus-T OHKO's after SR and has a very high chance w/o rocks. Even uninvested it has a chance to kill with rocks.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So you're saying that if something doesn't beat things with a huge type advantage over it, then it isn't broken? Just about every pokemon in the game loses to mons with type advantages 1v1. I'm aware that invested Ground types can beat Mawile. But how many can switch in? Very few, and fewer still can switch in repeatedly.
 
I'm honestly becoming really disappointed with the suspects that have been brought up this generation, let alone the ban of certain things. MMawile has a massively powerful attack stat but it also has massively exploitable flaws. The first is a weakness to one of the most common physical coverage moves in the game in Earthquake, a move that always makes its way onto every team under the sun and has a good chance of landing the KO. On the topic of sun there is the other weakness, Fire. Mawile is roasted by just about any offensively invested Fire attack barring coverage HP Fires and Clefable's neutral Flamethrower. Fire attacks from some of the most common threats in OU being Talonflame and both Mega Charizard forms. Even when intimidated the most common variants of Talonflame and Zard X manage to fry her alive, the former requiring higher damage rolls to one-shot.

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 318-374 (104.6 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is a best case scenario for Mawile, when both have lowered attack stats and have had no chance to set up. At neutral both have a guaranteed OHKO on Max HP Mawile; which is uncommon as most run enough speed to outpace slower walls. Sucker Punch fails to kill either at full health, even Zard after SR, and this is assuming neither of them are running any HP investment which both are known to do. Talonflame and Charizard X can also run Will-O, while not on their flagship sets it is far from uncommon. I've made it all this way without mentioning Zard Y because I don't feel the need to argue it's ability to completely pulverize the beast. Mawile's other very exploitable weakness is it's completely garbage speed stat. No argument can change the fact that Mawile's speed is incredibly low. No Sucker Punch does not fix this. Sucker Punch definitely extends Mawile's offensive abilities but is nothing close to reliable. Non-attacking moves (like Will-O!) don't even activate it and any priority move coming from a faster Pokemon (everything) outspeeds it, again not activating it. Calling MMawile anything but a powerhouse is an understatement but it is far from broken. Like any threat it needs to be planned for when making a team or it will eat you alive with both of it's big ass mouths.
So maybe don't send it out on things with STAB Flare Blitz? Those calcs are meaningless, no fucking shit STAB Tough Claws Flare Blitz off of 130 attack is going to OHKO something weak to it but no one is going to send Mawile in on that. Yeah ground is common, fire is... not as common you think (same with wisp) but Mawile has nine resists and two immunities and next to zero counters. I don't care if X-zard can KO it, it has a really, really tough time switching in to Mawile. If people could stop pointing out that it has weaknesses (you know, like every other pokemon except eelektross including every uber box legendary) that'd be nice, cause we know it's weak to fire/ground, which does a fat load of good if it's front of something without fire/ground moves.
 
I disagree. It seems smogon has recently taken a passion to simply banning things that are in any way extremely reliable. MGengar and Kanga are very understandable as they can take out any poke with DBond and hit through subs unreasonably hard, respectively.

Swagger, Baton Pass, Aegislash, Lucarionite, and now Mawilite being tested/banned is absolutely unwarranted. Swagger and Baton Pass may be exploitable but both have easy solutions that also work in many situations.

Aegislash and Mega Mawile are pokes that can do their jobs very well and apparently that warrants a ban. Aegislash as well as Mega Mawile are both OU staples that can both function well and are able to be stopped. It's disappointing how the meta is being destroyed by ridiculus bans that are totally unreasonable.
Please explain how Lucarionite isn't extremely broken. It's able to go physical or special with equal success, has access to priority and boosting moves of both spectrums, and has Adaptability to augment its power further. Aegislash was an incredibly bulky pivot that could tank literally any attack and attack back with a Shadow ball of a 150 base special attack. Nothing is going to switch into it twice. It also had kings shield to play mind games with the opponent and potentially cut an opposing sweeper's attack in half. Baton pass and swagger were cheap and uncompetitive strategies that had to be removed for the good of the metagame. Mega Mawile, as you know, has unmatched power able to be boosted by SD, a great defensive
typing allowing it to come in on resisted hits, sucker punch to dispose of fast pokes trying to revenge kill it, and focus punch to get rid of its would be counter heatran. All these things are unhealthy for the growth of the metagame and must be removed so the meta can get better. It is unfathomable how you can be so adamant as to how any of these things can be beneficial to a metagame. Of all the things banned so far, only Aegislash was remotely controversial. All others were glaring problems that needed to be dealt with.
 
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Yes, but there's this other thing called a Revenge Kill. It's also commonly referred to as a 'check'. It's another reason Mawile isn't the unstoppable and OHKO'ing powerhouse you guys make it out to be.
Absolutely everything can be revenge killed. And the number of things capable of revenge killing it greatly diminishes if it got a chance to Swords Dance. Something doesn't need to be able to 6-0 teams be ban-worthy.
 
So maybe don't send it out on things with STAB Flare Blitz? Those calcs are meaningless, no fucking shit STAB Tough Claws Flare Blitz off of 130 attack is going to OHKO something weak to it but no one is going to send Mawile in on that. Yeah ground is common, fire is... not as common you think (same with wisp) but Mawile has nine resists and two immunities and next to zero counters. I don't care if X-zard can KO it, it has a really, really tough time switching in to Mawile. If people could stop pointing out that it has weaknesses (you know, like every other pokemon except eelektross including every uber box legendary) that'd be nice, cause we know it's weak to fire/ground, which does a fat load of good if it's front of something without fire/ground moves.
If it's a problem then bring mons to deal with it. The point I'm trying to make is that yeah it's powerful and has limited switch-ins but it is far from unbeatable. If I lose to a player using Mawile it's because I wasn't prepared for the rest of his team or he outplayed me, not because of Mawile. I've never had an overwhelming problem with it because I know it's part of the meta and I being shit for it and have a plan. If more players played off of the team preview the "unpredictability" of threats wouldn't be such a huge problem.
 
Yes, but there's this other thing called a Revenge Kill. It's also commonly referred to as a 'check'. It's another reason Mawile isn't the unstoppable and OHKO'ing powerhouse you guys make it out to be.
Most of Mawile's "checks" can only deal with it once because mawile can hit them so hard they can't check it again.
 
Yes, but there's this other thing called a Revenge Kill. It's also commonly referred to as a 'check'. It's another reason Mawile isn't the unstoppable and OHKO'ing powerhouse you guys make it out to be.
Revenge killing is a garbage argument because it applies to literally every single pokemon in the entire game. What are you going to do if Mawile has a substitute up when it gets the kill? Or if it switches out? Every time Mawile switches in, you'd have to let something die to let your revenge killer come in. That is not balanced.

EDIT: to reply to your post below this one, if Zard comes in to Stealth Rocks it dies to Sucker Punch. BARELY a check.
 
Most of Mawile's "checks" can only deal with it once because mawile can hit them so hard they can't check it again.
Do you know what a check is? If I bring out Mega Charizard Y (just one example of a check, there are many others) against Mega Mawile after Mawile took out one of my pokes, that is a check. If Mega Mawile is going to hit Charizard Y, he must use Sucker Punch, which won't OHKO. Charizard Y then hits with a sun boosted STAB flamethrower/fire blast and Mawile is dead. Charizard Y doesn't have to check again.
 
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Yes, but there's this other thing called a Revenge Kill. It's also commonly referred to as a 'check'. It's another reason Mawile isn't the unstoppable and OHKO'ing powerhouse you guys make it out to be.
If your argument is to sack something every time Mawile comes in to switch your check in safely, I think you're making the pro-ban side's point more than anything.
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My two cents, I'm fairly undecided on whether or not this deserves the banhammer. If it had more speed, I would definitely think so; however, I feel like over-reliance on Sucker Punch somewhat holds it back. Points can definitely be made for its godly typing and nuclear damage output though, and if it forces even one switch (which it nearly always will, thanks to carrying Intimidate) it's going to pull its weight in most cases. I don't personally feel that it's over the line compared to other viable megas, but with the combination of all its positive traits I can understand if it were to go.

And with the current progression of this thread, it probably will.
 
But no it has loaaadddds of counters in the lower tiers and i can probably name 3 off the top of my head including mew, qwilfish, chandelure
Mew is 2hko'd regardless of spread, and if it isn't running 252/252+ it can be OHKO'd by Knock Off on the switch after rocks, though it does force Mawile out with the threat of Will-O-Wisp if it does come in safely. If Mawile subbed on the predicted switch, Mew can't touch it at all. Chandelure similarly eats a 2hko from Play Rough/ohko from Knock Off, and considering it'll die to Sucker Punch too I'm not really sure what your options are other than Will-O-Wisp or Substitute on the predicted Sucker Punch. Qwilfish can take the hits, but it Waterfalls Mawile for about as much as -1 Mawile hits it back for and lacks the recovery to do this multiple times, on top of being a niche answer in general. These are all checks, not counters.
 
The problem with the revenge killing argument is that it's basically affirming that you need to sac something to scare it out. The only reason I would let my Mawile be revenge killed is if it set me up for a win. Mawile is too valuable an asset to just sacrifice to a revenge kill; any competent player will switch him out and wait for another likely opportunity to switch in and set back up. It is this reason that Mawile is broken. Quite honestly, I'm surprised this didn't get the quick ban, but I'm glad it's getting the suspect nonetheless.
 
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