Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Kyuzeth]

Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross may be highly susceptible to Talonflame, but something called teambuilding exists, y'know. As I've mentioned before, Tyranitar is an excellent partner for both of these Pokémon, as it's capable of tanking any Brave Bird that Talonflame can throw at it. Additionally, Slowbro works quite well with Mega Heracross, as it's also able to take Brave Birds aimed at the Hercules beetle. Outside of Talonflame, there's little that can stop Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross. Both of these Pokémon are perfectly capable of dismantling entire Stall, defensive and balanced teams on their own and the only time when they'll really need support is against offense, but since they're really easy to fit onto teams, they don't need a lot of support. Nothing can switch in on these two due to their perfect coverage and insane offensive stats.
What's that, Talonflame can revenge kill them? Too bad it can't come in on Megacross's Rock Blast or +2 Close Combat. Get SR up and Mega Heracross takes Talonflame to the grave with it due to Brave Bird's recoil. Mega Gardevoir just needs SR support to OHKO non-BU Talonflame with Hyper Voice. Those variants can be taken care of by Psyshock, for that matter. As grassycow before me has pointed out, Mega Heracross doesn't take shit from whatever can't hit supereffectively. For the amazing wallbreakers they are, capable of annihilating whole teams on their own given the chance. Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir deserve to rise to A.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 429-507 (163.7 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Psyshock Starmie is not very common. Most of them run Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin.

You are way overselling Excadril lol
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
2HKO with a bit of prior damage? LOL. And it can just Leech Seed/Power Whip for fun. Not saying that Starmie wins, but Excadril doesn't.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def (standard support variant that actually carries SR) Tyranitar: 272-324 (67.4 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 306-362 (84.5 - 100%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 260-307 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Excadril is only barely better than Starmie against support TTar

LOL since when does Clefable carry SR? and even so:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope Excadril doesn't do significantly better

a) Ferrothorn

Physically defensive Ferrothorn? Is this the new metagame? /sarcasm

I'm guessing you mean this:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-147 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yeah, if (Rocky Helmet) Ferro has about 75% remaining, Excadrill wins.

b) Tyranitar
Tyranitar Earthquake vs. Air Balloon Excadrill: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
And as for non-Air Balloon variants:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 252-296 (62.5 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 282-332 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Finally, what kind of Tyranitar would run Adamant if it goes physically defensive?

c) Clefable

Stealth Rock Clefable is a thing, it's even mentioned in the analysis. Also Excadrill can, I dunno, SWITCH IN on Clefable (especially if it has an Assault Vest, as that item allows it to laugh at Flamethrower). Starmie is 2HKOed with rocks in play.

 

[Skankovich]

Psyshock Starmie is not very common. Most of them run Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin.

Then it should be common? Considering it lets you beat the only relevant OU spinblocker, it should really be mandatory, otherwise you're better off with something else.

 

[escarlata]

Psyshock Starmie is not very common. Most of them run Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin.




a) Ferrothorn

Physically defensive Ferrothorn? Is this the new metagame? /sarcasm

I'm guessing you mean this:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-147 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yeah, if Ferro has about 75% remaining, Excadrill wins.

b) Tyranitar
Tyranitar Earthquake vs. Air Balloon Excadrill: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
And as for non-Air Balloon variants:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 252-296 (62.5 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 282-332 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Finally, what kind of Tyranitar would run Adamant if it goes physically defensive?

c) Clefable

Stealth Rock Clefable is a thing, it's even mentioned in the analysis. Also Excadrill can, I dunno, SWITCH IN on Clefable (especially if it has an Assault Vest, as that item allows it to laugh at Flamethrower). Starmie is 2HKOed with rocks in play.

Ferrothorn runs PDef if your team isn't weak to Tail Glow Manaphy
Starmie's standard set has Psyshock slashed before Tbolt
Yes Stealth Rock Clefable is on analysis, but how often do you see people run that set? I think I saw only 2 in 7 months.

EDIT: @below: read the set details of Ferrothorn, and even 252/88 Impish can take 2 EQ with 3 layers of Spikes.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Starmie (both 3 attacks + RS and Bulky + RT) doesn't lose to either of those sash leads 1v1 because it can outspeed, take a hit, kill with Rapid Spin if it decided to set up for some stupid reason, and recover back health. It just can't switch in anymore Reflect Type Bulky Starmie can Reflect Type Ferrothorn to prevent it from doing any real damage and just spam recover and PP Stall, so it technically PP Stalls it. When did Clefable start using rocks? Am I uninformed? I'm sure both the cleric and CM sets would MUCH rather be running other moves.

How the hell does bulky Starmie beat those sash leads? Why would Chomp/Terrakion SR against a Rapid Spinner that outspeeds it anyway? It will simply OHKO your Starmie with Outrage/Dragon Claw since Reflect Type transformed it into a Dragon/Ground, while if it uses Reflect Type against Terrakion, it becomes vulnerable to Close Combat.

^Um, no, Ferrothorn's standard set is 252 HP / 88+ Def / 168 SpD

 

[escarlata]

I also realised Celebi has been up for debate on the previous page, so as someone who use Celebi extensively somewhat high on the ladder, I believe it's a good idea for me to make some views on its placement. 2 sets which I have been using extensively (on different teams), are the PDef set and the SDef set. Celebi's role is that of a glue, which protects the team against many top threats which balance/bulky offense usually have no safe switch in to. While having lots of weaknesses, it has a ton of useful resistances which balance/bulky offense lacks. For more information on what it checks, refer to the post in the quote from back in page 187.

This nomination is not directly related to Aegislash's ban but it sure benefited from it: Celebi to B-/B.

• It's SDef set is a very solid Pokemon on many offense/balance teams that face problems to many common threats to offense/balance in general, including Keldeo, Thundurus-I, Azumarill, Excadril, Latios, Breloom, Rotom-W etc.
• Thanks to Thunder Wave, it cripples even Greninja (without U-turn) and Medicham, while being able to stall with Recover for a full paralysis or switch to a resist.
• A PDef set easily solo all variants of Azumarill, Medicham, +2 Kabutops, Terrakion, non-sd Garchomp.
• Other than the mentioned 2 sets, Celebi is still incredibly versatile, capable of running SD/NP passing set, NP offense pretty well.
• Unlike other Psychic types, Celebi is capable of escaping Pursuit via Baton Pass so it doesn't auto-lose to Ttar, Scizor, Bisharp.
• To set itself apart from Amoonguss/Venusaur, it has Thunder Wave, Nature Cure, NP/SD, BP, Earth Power, Heal Bell. And above all, it is the only Grass type not to get walled by EVERY other Grass type in OU.

I personally have been running a set of 252 HP/ 224 SDef/32 Spd set with TWave/BP/Giga Drain (sometimes Psychic)/Recover, and had great success with it up to the 17xx-18xx lately, and some of these calcs reflect personal encounters where Celebi has proven useful.

Wall of Calcs

Keldeo: (Celebi wins)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 55% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 212-252 (65.6 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Landorus: (Celebi wins if it lacks Sludge Wave)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 97-115 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


Thundurus: (Celebi wins)

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 182-218 (45 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 118-139 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Azumarill: (Celebi wins)

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 159-187 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 102-120 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO


Excadril: (Celebi wins if it lacks SD)

252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 115-136 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO


Venusaur: (Celebi wins with Psychic)

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Latios: (Celebi walls Latios and TWaves the switch-in)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Breloom: (LOL)

252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 57.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Manectric: (Celebi wins sometimes)

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 148-176 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 97-115 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Greninja: (Cripples Greninja with TWave)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 242-283 (59.9 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Non-Water): 108-127 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Non-Dark): 129-153 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO


Medicham: (Cripples Medicham with TWave, Celebi wins if it lacks Ice/Fire Punch)

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 272-322 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Having said that, there are some factors that holds Celebi back. While for some Pokemons having many choices is a good thing for unpredictability, Celebi is one that suffers from 4MSS because of its good variety of moves. Baton Pass and Recover are mandatory on defensive sets, and defensive sets more or less want Thunder Wave for utility, it only has 1 slot for a STAB, Earth Power, Heal Bell, SD/NP, SR, or Healing Wish. As the calcs in the quoted post highlights, many of the offensive stuff it checks only lose to either Psychic or Giga Drain, and not both, which means Celebi counters less that it seemingly does. Another problem with Celebi is that it relies a lot on Thunder Wave to stop threats, so it becomes set up bait against something that cannot be paralysed, or is faster with Substitute.

Overall, it is definitely good enough to be B-, but whether it is deserving of B is still somewhat questionable due to the aforesaid reasons.

 

[Numera]

How the hell does bulky Starmie beat those sash leads? Why would Chomp/Terrakion SR against a Rapid Spinner that outspeeds it anyway? It will simply OHKO your Starmie with Outrage/Dragon Claw since Reflect Type transformed it into a Dragon/Ground, while if it uses Reflect Type against Terrakion, it becomes vulnerable to Close Combat.

^Um, no, Ferrothorn's standard set is 252 HP / 88+ Def / 168 SpD

And why would you reflect type against these spinners? These are suicide Leads. 1v1, you outspeed and 2HKO these Sash Leads with Hydro Pump. YOU ARE NOT OHKOed. It's that simple. 1v1, these Sash leads lose to Starmie. 1v1, Excadrill loses to these sash leads. It's that simple. Starmie checks more spinners than Excadrill and thus has a reason to be used over Excadrill, and is not 100% outclassed. I'm not going to list all the other reasons why Starmie has reasons to be used over Excadrill because I already have. Excadrill is the better spinner, but there are many reasons why Starmie is perfectly viable over it, and there isn't a LOT of competition over offensive spinners anyway, there's only 2, each of them having something over the other.

 

[jbtc10]

B- is probably more appropriate than B for Celebi because having a Pursuit weakness is a bit of a bummer as it either burns a utility moveslot if you want to mitigate that problem or becomes a bit risky if you don't. It kind of needs Earth Power to stop Heatran for walking over it and setting up rocks for free and/or spamming Lava Plumes at your team, and it realistically has nothing to stop Ferrothorn and Skarmory (other than sacrificing a fairly important STAB move for HP Fire) from coming in for free and doing the same. In other words, it walls things like Keldeo nicely, but a lot of things also wall it and can set up on it in return. The case of 4MSS is more of a bitch to Celebi than it is to most other pokes when it's being used in its defensive role, but it's still a very decent mon in its own right and I've actually had instances where my opponent just couldn't break it late game even with 3 different high ranked mons.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

And why would you reflect type against these spinners? These are suicide Leads. 1v1, you outspeed and 2HKO these Sash Leads with Hydro Pump. YOU ARE NOT OHKOed. It's that simple. 1v1, these Sash leads lose to Starmie. 1v1, Excadrill loses to these sash leads. It's that simple. Starmie checks more spinners than Excadrill and thus has a reason to be used over Excadrill, and is not 100% outclassed. I'm not going to list all the other reasons why Starmie has reasons to be used over Excadrill because I already have. Excadrill is the better spinner, but there are many reasons why Starmie is perfectly viable over it, and there isn't a LOT of competition over offensive spinners anyway, there's only 2, each of them having something over the other.

Why would bulky RT Starmie use Hydro Pump? Why wouldn't it run Scald, since it's much more consistent and has a 30% chance to burn? Also when did I say that Garchomp and Terrakion are rapid spinners? Terrakion only loses if Starmie goes Timid. Garchomp always wins no matter how you look at it.

4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 100-118 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 180-213 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 217-256 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 180-213 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 188-224 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Defensive Mega Blastoise (I KNOW ITS CRAP BUT STILL) beats those sash leads much easier thanks to its higher bulk, an improved Scald, RestTalk, etc. Sure, it takes a mega slot, but there are alternatives to those "op" Mega Evolutions (for example, CB / AV Scizor instead of Mega Scizor, SubDD Gyarados instead of Mega Gyarados, etc.)

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 124-147 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 272-324 (84.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 126-148 (34.8 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 105-124 (29 - 34.2%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 129-153 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 144-171 (40.2 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, Excadrill can't beat those sash leads, but Mega Blastoise can. That's something to consider when you want to use Starmie.

So I think it's pretty clear. Starmie is outclassed by Greninja as a speedy special attacker, somewhat outclassed by Excadrill and Mega Blastoise as an offensive Rapid Spinner, and the latter also outclasses it on the defensive side. It's also kind of outclassed by Lati@s, Zapdos and Skarmory as an overall hazard remover. I don't think the simple removal of a metagame-defining Pokemon is enough to bring it to B.

Keep Starmie at C+. I'm done with this. It's a good Pokemon, but it's kinda like Donphan: outclassed in everything it does, just that it has some perks that might be useful for your team. I like Starmie and all, but it just isn't what it was in the first 5 gens :(

 

[jbtc10]

Starmie isn't really outclassed by those things though because of the fact that it combines the functionalities of them. For example, Greninja certainly outclasses it as a fast special attacker and Excadrill gives it competition in a vacuum as a spinner, but the thing is, Starmie is a fast special attacker and a spinner in one, which is what makes it useful. Starmie is generally better against offense than Excadrill under most conditions because of the fact that it can outspeed and KO a lot of prominent threats like Lando's, Keldeo and so on and hits things harder on the switch with better coverage moves. Greninja can do that too, but it can't spin, so you have to devote another slot for a hazard remover, when you could have simply used Starmie instead and saved that slot for something else like another sweeper. On those grounds, Starmie does deserve B- because it really does have a compelling reason to use it over an A+ mon.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

So I guess I'll throw in my two cents about Starmie.

This thing is pretty good as an offensive spinner. It has quite good Speed and a pretty nice offensive coverage to boot, which is really cool. This thing spins quite nicely, and the removal of Aegislash definitely helps it, so it's much harder to stop Starmie from getting its spin then before. Aside from a fast Rapid Spin, Starmie does pack sufficient power, with Analytic and LO, combined with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and one of Psyshock or Thunderbolt make it quite tricky to switch into for offensive teams. Obviously Chansey and Ferrothorn do wall it, but they did so last gen too, right? Starmie isn't exactly outclassed as much as it faces competition; yeah Greninja is definitely a better Pokemon, which is why it should be in A+ while Starmie should obviously be lower than it. Excadrill gives it competition as a spinner, but Starmie can stand out with its better Speed on its own and its typing (and its movepool too). It's nice as a mixture of a special attacker and a sweeper; as said, it's kind of a hybridization of Greninja and Excadrill. It should be in B or B- at the very least because while it has some competition in its roles, it's pretty good at what it does and has some good advantages over its competition. It's obviously not A or S Rank, but B Rank would be reasonable.

And nobody uses defensive Mega Blastoise lol. Imo completely bad sets should not even be discussed in this thread.

 

[Numera]

Why would bulky RT Starmie use Hydro Pump? Why wouldn't it run Scald, since it's much more consistent and has a 30% chance to burn? Also when did I say that Garchomp and Terrakion are rapid spinners? Terrakion only loses if Starmie goes Timid. Garchomp always wins no matter how you look at it.

4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 100-118 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 180-213 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 217-256 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 180-213 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 188-224 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Defensive Mega Blastoise (I KNOW ITS CRAP BUT STILL) beats those sash leads much easier thanks to its higher bulk, an improved Scald, RestTalk, etc. Sure, it takes a mega slot, but there are alternatives to those "op" Mega Evolutions (for example, CB / AV Scizor instead of Mega Scizor, SubDD Gyarados instead of Mega Gyarados, etc.)

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 124-147 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 272-324 (84.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 126-148 (34.8 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 105-124 (29 - 34.2%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 129-153 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 144-171 (40.2 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, Excadrill can't beat those sash leads, but Mega Blastoise can. That's something to consider when you want to use Starmie.

So I think it's pretty clear. Starmie is outclassed by Greninja as a speedy special attacker, somewhat outclassed by Excadrill and Mega Blastoise as an offensive Rapid Spinner, and the latter also outclasses it on the defensive side. It's also kind of outclassed by Lati@s, Zapdos and Skarmory as an overall hazard remover. I don't think the simple removal of a metagame-defining Pokemon is enough to bring it to B.

Keep Starmie at C+. I'm done with this. It's a good Pokemon, but it's kinda like Donphan: outclassed in everything it does, just that it has some perks that might be useful for your team. I like Starmie and all, but it just isn't what it was in the first 5 gens :(

As said above, Starmie is a combanation of what partially outclasses it. We've already proven that Starmie checks more SR setters than Excadrill (maybe not the defensive set, In that post I was talking about Offensive Starmie there) and we've already said that Greninja is better at Starmie at being a speedy special attacker, but it lacks Rapid Spin. We've listed all the other reasons why Starmie has reasons to be used over Excadrill (Reflect Type, Natural Cure and Analytic, a defensive set with Recover, ect). So, as we can see, there are indeed reasons why Starmie isn't completely outclassed due to a lot of competition, because there are multiple reasons to use it over what you listed. Before you say "eh what about Mega Blastiose!" Remeber that Mega Blastioise takes up a valuable Mega Slot. I'd rather run DD Megados + Starmie than SubDD Dos + Mega Blastiose, thank you very much.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Starmie isn't really outclassed by those things though because of the fact that it combines the functionalities of them.

As said above, Starmie is a combanation of what partially outclasses it.

Just because Starmie is a jack of all trades (master of none) does not mean it should move up. Donphan also combines the functionalities of Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Excadrill and so many other things and yet it's blacklisted.

BUT ANYWAY.

I agree with Mega Heracross to A-. Mega Heracross REALLY wanted Aegislash gone (much more than Starmie) and is no longer forced to run Earthquake to make an attempt at removing it. It's a true nightmare to stall with a Swords Dance set. Admittedly, it struggles against Unaware Clefable and Skarmory, but that's what you have teammates for and why is it not higher. It can break through Quagsire with Bullet Seed, and OHKO everything else with its incredible power. Even offense teams shouldn't take it lightly, as it has good defenses and can sometimes live super effective hits (and is one of the main reasons why Keldeo runs HP Flying). It beats Thundurus and Azumarill (the latter should indeed move up to S) 1-on-1, resists Pursuit/Sucker Punch and does not care at all about Knock Off, which means it's a nice check to Bisharp and Tyranitar.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Just because Starmie is a jack of all trades (master of none) does not mean it should move up. Donphan also combines the functionalities of Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Excadrill and so many other things and yet it's blacklisted.

BUT ANYWAY.

I agree with Mega Heracross to A-. Mega Heracross REALLY wanted Aegislash gone (much more than Starmie) and is no longer forced to run Earthquake to make an attempt at removing it. It's a true nightmare to stall with a Swords Dance set. Admittedly, it struggles against Unaware Clefable and Skarmory, but that's what you have teammates for and why is it not higher. It can break through Quagsire with Bullet Seed, and OHKO everything else with its incredible power. Even offense teams shouldn't take it lightly, as it has good defenses and can sometimes live super effective hits (and is one of the main reasons why Keldeo runs HP Flying). It beats Thundurus and Azumarill (the latter should indeed move up to S) 1-on-1, resists Pursuit/Sucker Punch and does not care at all about Knock Off, which means it's a nice check to Bisharp and Tyranitar.

It doesn't give a shit about skarmory.
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-172 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 291-343 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also it doesn't need Bullet Seed as Quagsire, Rotom-W and Hippowdon already take a fuckton from Pin Missile.

 

[Clone]

Time for me to make a big ass post on things I think should move.

Starmie: C+ -> B/B+ aegis getting the boot really helped him out. Gengar can't spinblock him thanks to Psyshock, making him a viable option as a spinner. He combines the speed and special attacking prowess of Greninja with the spinning capabilities of Excadrill which carves him a niche that no other mon in OU can boast. His Psychic typing and the prevalence of VoltTurn and Pursuit is what keeps him from being an A rank threat. He needs to move up.

Mamoswine A- -> A this needs to happen and is long overdue. I made a post earlier on this, but he shits on Genie spam and is very anti meta. Great Sash Lead that pretty much guarantees rocks with Oblivious and can fuck over defense with Endeavor. The only reason why he's not A+ is his bad defensive typing and mediocre speed. Move him up where he belongs.

Mega Heracross B+ -> A-/A shits on stall with an SD set and can do reasonably well vs. offense wth his bulk. Base 185 attack is the highest in OU (not counting Huge Power) which makes him extremely hard to wall. Skill link allows him to use a more accurate and powerful Stone Edge that passes through Sturdy and subs with Rock Blast. Same applies to Mega Miss and Pin Missle. Below average speed and bad defensive typing holds him back from A+.

Mega Gardevoir Stays in A- losing her #1 counter in Aegis allows her to truly shine against defensive teams. Hard to wall. Hard to switch into. She has Willo to fuck with Scizor and other things that want to try to switch Into Hyper Voice. Great special bulk. Okay against offense, but can't switch into very many things. I don't see her higher than A- because most physical attacks 1/2HKO her, which include some resists (Latios's Psyshock 2HKOes her unless she runs like 24 def EVs iirc). Her speed is good, but not great and is in an overcrowded speed tier.

Mega Garchomp B+ -> A- another mon that shits on stall. The mixed set has 2 counters in OU: SpDef Gliscor and Cresselia. That's it. Great offensive typing and a speed stat that doesn't require full investment allows him to hold his own against offense just as well as Hera and Garde can - decently, but not that great. He likes sand support, but that's not that hard to fit into a team since TTar and hippo are great mons in their own right. Being RKed easily and having to use a SpDef lowering nature doesn't do him very many favors. A /somewhat/ reliance on sand is another thing that keeps him from being in A rank. PS: sub isn't even a good option on him

Bisharp Stays A+ I don't see that much of a reason to drop him. He still traps the Latis and has defiant to allow himself to muscle past weakened Lando Ts and Mawiles, as well as punish Defog. He kills most fairies with Iron Head and resists SR. And his Knock Off is one of, if not the strongest in OU. Aegis and the Deos leaving hurt him a bit but not much. Keep him in A+

Azumarill A+ -> S this needs to happen. The AV set pivots extremely well and can be slapped onto almost any offensively oriented team and glue it together, while the Band set nukes anything that doesn't resist the move chosen. Then the BellyJet set can late game sweep late game, but is honestly mediocre at best. Sitrus does help avoid some 2HKOes tho. All this on top of her awesome offensive and defensive typing and great offensive presence with bulk is more than enough to justify her as an S rank. Move her up.

Keldeo a Stays in A+ Keldeo is a top tier threat for sure, but he isn't on par wih the big boys. Specs nukes shit, but that's the thing: he has a bit of an overiance on specs. Venu can avoid the 2HKO from HP Flying with the correct investment and wall him all day long. Scald burns hurt, sure, but you cant use hax as a justification for anything unless its like Enteis Sacred Fire. The Latis beat him if he doesn't have Icy Wind, so he likes Pursuit support. Then there's the fact that once you're locked into a move, your opponent can then switch in the correct mon to take it. Yeah there's shit like Sub CM and Sub Salac Endeavor, but they're not nearly as consistent as Specs. Scarf is a nice surprise for shit like Thundy and Scarfchomp, but misses out on KOes that he really wants. He's a great mon, just not S Rank material.

Terrakion A -> A+ this guy is now finally the threat we all know and love (hate) from last gen. EQ is no longer needed, which allows him to run coverage for other things. Scarf can now use X-Scissor to nail the Latis (more reliable than Stone Miss), Lead Sash can Taunt opposing Leads, and LO Can use SD or Quick Attack (actually p underrated - get the jump on weakened Scarfers and DDers). There's even HP Ice that nails non SpDef Gliscor and Lando (T). He has great dual STABs that get almost perfect neutral coverage, a great speed tier, and a great attack stat on top of all of this. Move him up to his pony brother pls

That's all I can think of for now. There's no formatting cuz yay phone post. May make another if I think of something else.

 

[Numera]

Just because Starmie is a jack of all trades (master of none) does not mean it should move up. Donphan also combines the functionalities of Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Excadrill and so many other things and yet it's blacklisted.

BUT ANYWAY.

I agree with Mega Heracross to A-. Mega Heracross REALLY wanted Aegislash gone (much more than Starmie) and is no longer forced to run Earthquake to make an attempt at removing it. It's a true nightmare to stall with a Swords Dance set. Admittedly, it struggles against Unaware Clefable and Skarmory, but that's what you have teammates for and why is it not higher. It can break through Quagsire with Bullet Seed, and OHKO everything else with its incredible power. Even offense teams shouldn't take it lightly, as it has good defenses and can sometimes live super effective hits (and is one of the main reasons why Keldeo runs HP Flying). It beats Thundurus and Azumarill (the latter should indeed move up to S) 1-on-1, resists Pursuit/Sucker Punch and does not care at all about Knock Off, which means it's a nice check to Bisharp and Tyranitar.

Considering it's a jack of all trades that (unlike Hydreigon) brings the occasional thing that none of the offensive spinners/defoggers can do (absorb status, fastest) and is the master of checking rocks setters as a hazard remover, it really should move up. It is a master of something and has an ability that allows it to do something none of the other hazard removers can do.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Time for me to make a big ass post on things I think should move.

Starmie: C+ -> B/B+ aegis getting the boot really helped him out. Gengar can't spinblock him thanks to Psyshock, making him a viable option as a spinner. He combines the speed and special attacking prowess of Greninja with the spinning capabilities of Excadrill which carves him a niche that no other mon in OU can boast. His Psychic typing and the prevalence of VoltTurn and Pursuit is what keeps him from being an A rank threat. He needs to move up.

Mamoswine A- -> A this needs to happen and is long overdue. I made a post earlier on this, but he shits on Genie spam and is very anti meta. Great Sash Lead that pretty much guarantees rocks with Oblivious and can fuck over defense with Endeavor. The only reason why he's not A+ is his bad defensive typing and mediocre speed. Move him up where he belongs.

Mega Heracross B+ -> A-/A shits on stall with an SD set and can do reasonably well vs. offense wth his bulk. Base 185 attack is the highest in OU (not counting Huge Power) which makes him extremely hard to wall. Skill link allows him to use a more accurate and powerful Stone Edge that passes through Sturdy and subs with Rock Blast. Same applies to Mega Miss and Pin Missle. Below average speed and bad defensive typing holds him back from A+.

Mega Gardevoir B+ -> A- losing her #1 counter in Aegis allows her to truly shine against defensive teams. Hard to wall. Hard to switch into. She has Willo to fuck with Scizor and other things that want to try to switch Into Hyper Voice. Great special bulk. Okay against offense, but can't switch into very many things. I don't see her higher than A- because most physical attacks 1/2HKO her, which include some resists (Latios's Psyshock 2HKOes her unless she runs like 24 def EVs iirc). Her speed is good, but not great and is in an overcrowded speed tier.

Mega Garchomp B+ -> A- another mon that shits on stall. The mixed set has 2 counters in OU: SpDef Gliscor and Cresselia. That's it. Great offensive typing and a speed stat that doesn't require full investment allows him to hold his own against offense just as well as Hera and Garde can - decently, but not that great. He likes sand support, but that's not that hard to fit into a team since TTar and hippo are great mons in their own right. Being RKed easily and having to use a SpDef lowering nature doesn't do him very many favors. A /somewhat/ reliance on sand is another thing that keeps him from being in A rank. PS: sub isn't even a good option on him

Bisharp Stays A+ I don't see that much of a reason to drop him. He still traps the Latis and has defiant to allow himself to muscle past weakened Lando Ts and Mawiles, as well as punish Defog. He kills most fairies with Iron Head and resists SR. And his Knock Off is one of, if not the strongest in OU. Aegis and the Deos leaving hurt him a bit but not much. Keep him in A+

Azumarill A+ -> S this needs to happen. The AV set pivots extremely well and can be slapped onto almost any offensively oriented team and glue it together, while the Band set nukes anything that doesn't resist the move chosen. Then the BellyJet set can late game sweep late game, but is honestly mediocre at best. Sitrus does help avoid some 2HKOes tho. All this on top of her awesome offensive and defensive typing and great offensive presence with bulk is more than enough to justify her as an S rank. Move her up.

Keldeo a Stays in A+ Keldeo is a top tier threat for sure, but he isn't on par wih the big boys. Specs nukes shit, but that's the thing: he has a bit of an overiance on specs. Venu can avoid the 2HKO from HP Flying with the correct investment and wall him all day long. Scald burns hurt, sure, but you cant use hax as a justification for anything unless its like Enteis Sacred Fire. The Latis beat him if he doesn't have Icy Wind, so he likes Pursuit support. Then there's the fact that once you're locked into a move, your opponent can then switch in the correct mon to take it. Yeah there's shit like Sub CM and Sub Salac Endeavor, but they're not nearly as consistent as Specs. Scarf is a nice surprise for shit like Thundy and Scarfchomp, but misses out on KOes that he really wants. He's a great mon, just not S Rank material.

Terrakion A -> A+ this guy is now finally the threat we all know and love (hate) from last gen. EQ is no longer needed, which allows him to run coverage for other things. Scarf can now use X-Scissor to nail the Latis (more reliable than Stone Miss), Lead Sash can Taunt opposing Leads, and LO Can use SD or Quick Attack (actually p underrated - get the jump on weakened Scarfers and DDers). There's even HP Ice that nails non SpDef Gliscor and Lando (T). He has great dual STABs that get almost perfect neutral coverage, a great speed tier, and a great attack stat on top of all of this. Move him up to his pony brother pls

That's all I can think of for now. There's no formatting cuz yay phone post. May make another if I think of something else.

I agree with all of your nominations, but Mega Gardevoir is already A-. I have a post a few pages back that details why it should move up to A, as well as on this page, so feel free to check that out. It's been A- for a week or so now, though. Generally, everything you've mentioned should just move up, since Aegislash is no longer there to ruin their days.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Considering it's a jack of all trades that (unlike Hydreigon) brings the occasional thing that none of the offensive spinners/defoggers can do (absorb status, fastest) and is the master of checking rocks setters as a hazard remover, it really should move up. It is a master of something and has an ability that allows it to do something none of the other hazard removers can do.

Offensive Starmie would rather run Analytic, so how does it absorb status? It's a master of none: Excadrill and Mega Blastoise pretty much do its job better. Oh and somewhat I forgot to mention: offensive Mega Blastoise checks the rock setters even better since it's not weak to Dark and is MUCH bulkier (note these calcs are done without Analytic, since these rock-type setters bar Ferrothorn are leads or won't switch into Starmie):

Hide

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 226-266 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can't switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 86-101 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 402-474 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 515-608 (134.8 - 159.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 396-468 (98.2 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 265-312 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Analytic can OHKO, but can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 362-428 (112 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't really switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 424-502 (131.2 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 190-225 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can switch in, but be wary of Outrage)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 489-577 (136.5 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can switch in, but has problems beating it especially if Clefable gets a special attack drop)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can't really switch in and loses if Clefable gets a special attack drop)
However, do note that SR Clefable is rare.

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 222-262 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can switch in easily)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 261-308 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Brave Bird might 2HKO back though, so be careful)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Skarmory: 213-252 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (has to be wary of Brave Bird)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 801-945 (184.5 - 217.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 936-1104 (215.6 - 254.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in. Gets OHKOed back by Megahorn and takes heavy damage from Earthquake)

The very rare Stealth Rock Bisharp and Excadrill also deserve a mention. Mega Blastoise can switch in and destroy them, Starmie can't.

Mega Blastoise also handles the spinblockers better:

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 28 HP / 80 SpD Gengar: 340-400 (126.8 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 429-507 (160 - 189.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in at all)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 346-408 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 227-269 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not only it can't switch in, but HPump can't OHKO, while Shadow Sneak 2HKOes back...)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Banette: 344-406 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not give a shit about Knock Off, can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Banette: 227-269 (68.3 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can't switch in)
(Both lose if Mega Banette predicts correctly.)

So how does Starmie plan to switch into the Stealth Rock users and the spinblockers? It can't switch in on the SR users, so how is it a master in this regard? Mega Blastoise can get past Ferrothorn with Aura Sphere and 2HKO Clefable if it really wants to shit on it. Mega Blastoise is the master at beating SR setters, and outclasses Starmie once again.

One more thing: Water Pulse has 100% accuracy, while Hydro Pump only 80%...

 

[AsynchronousIO]

The problem: Mega Blastoise takes up a Mega Slot and kills momentum on offensive teams. The first is really big, in my opinion. Offensive teams want to use their Mega slot for a powerful sweeper, like Zard X or Pinsir, that would benefit from having hazards removed, rather than to remove hazards. Blastoise is also slow as shit making it a bit easier to wear down and hindering its ability to clean up late game.

No one uses SR Bisharp unless they're really desperate for something with SR. In which case something else can handle Bisharp and Starmie can spin away when it's dead. Same goes for Excadrill. They hardly deserve a mention.

Why are you worried about switching into spinblockers? Aren't the spinblockers wanting to switch into you? Doublade is also pretty useless outside stall, and you're not gonna see it much.

I also don't think Starmie wants to run Analytic. Natural Cure is far more reliable for me. Stops things like Thundy from ruining your day with Prankster TWave and all. You lose a little power but if there's anything you've shown with your calcs it's that Starmie doesn't need the extra power, as it OHKO/2HKOs most of what it needs to.

 

[skies]

That and the fact it's more common for Mega Blastoise to run Scald over Water Pulse anyways... DoABarrelRoll, you're completely ignoring what other people are saying and just keep bringing up the same thing, it's just going to go in circles. Starmie and Mega Blastoise do not outclass each other in my eyes, Mega Blastosie has strong coverage while Starmie is so much faster and has recovery, they're similar in that they're offensive Water-type Rapid Spinners, but I fail to see how one outclasses the other. Neither are bad, but both are far from amazing. Starmie has it's perks, Blastoise has it's, it's as simple as that. Can people actually build a team w/ either of them and test out both of them? I'm sure you'd see how each one provides a niche to your team and that they don't outclass each other. I really don't care about where Starmie goes, but this whole Mega Blastoise vs. Starmie thing is just plain stupid.

One more thing: Scald / Hydro Pump are used on Mega Blastoise more than Water Pulse.

 

[escarlata]

The biggest flaw in that list of irrelevant calcs is why Starmie wants to switch into SR users in the first place. By that logic Lati@s cannot switch in to most of them either. Just a irrelevant list of calcs proving an irrelevant point.

As for the list of spinblockers, only Gengar is actually relevant, even more so when you move higher up the ladder. Actually I believe enough statements have been made on both sides such that points are just being repeated. Easiest solution is just wait for mods to make a verdict to B and leave it as conclusion reached.

 

[Numera]

Offensive Starmie would rather run Analytic, so how does it absorb status? It's a master of none: Excadrill and Mega Blastoise pretty much do its job better. Oh and somewhat I forgot to mention: offensive Mega Blastoise checks the rock setters even better since it's not weak to Dark and is MUCH bulkier (note these calcs are done without Analytic, since these rock-type setters bar Ferrothorn are leads or won't switch into Starmie):

Hide

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 226-266 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can't switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 86-101 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 402-474 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 515-608 (134.8 - 159.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 396-468 (98.2 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 265-312 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Analytic can OHKO, but can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 362-428 (112 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't really switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 424-502 (131.2 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 190-225 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can switch in, but be wary of Outrage)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 489-577 (136.5 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can switch in, but has problems beating it especially if Clefable gets a special attack drop)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can't really switch in and loses if Clefable gets a special attack drop)
However, do note that SR Clefable is rare.

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 222-262 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can switch in easily)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 261-308 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Brave Bird might 2HKO back though, so be careful)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Skarmory: 213-252 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (has to be wary of Brave Bird)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 801-945 (184.5 - 217.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 936-1104 (215.6 - 254.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in. Gets OHKOed back by Megahorn and takes heavy damage from Earthquake)

The very rare Stealth Rock Bisharp and Excadrill also deserve a mention. Mega Blastoise can switch in and destroy them, Starmie can't.

Mega Blastoise also handles the spinblockers better:

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 28 HP / 80 SpD Gengar: 340-400 (126.8 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 429-507 (160 - 189.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can't switch in at all)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 346-408 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 227-269 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not only it can't switch in, but HPump can't OHKO, while Shadow Sneak 2HKOes back...)

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Banette: 344-406 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not give a shit about Knock Off, can switch in)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Banette: 227-269 (68.3 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can't switch in)
(Both lose if Mega Banette predicts correctly.)

So how does Starmie plan to switch into the Stealth Rock users and the spinblockers? It can't switch in on the SR users, so how is it a master in this regard? Mega Blastoise can get past Ferrothorn with Aura Sphere and 2HKO Clefable if it really wants to shit on it. Mega Blastoise is the master at beating SR setters, and outclasses Starmie once again.

One more thing: Water Pulse has 100% accuracy, while Hydro Pump only 80%...

Natural Cure is still a nice ability on Starmie. Either Analytic or Natural Cure works, seeing as how Absorbing Status is a godlike thing for offensive teams.

A check is just something that can come in once or twice and threaten out with an OHKO by outspeeding. Offensive Starmie both checks and revenge kills all of those Rocks Setters bar Ferro, which can be PP Stalled if you run the Reflect Type set. Yes, you can argue Mega Blastoise > Starmie (I would certainly not), but only partially. Remember, Starmie doesn't take up a Mega Slot, which is a huge advantage. Starmie also has a recovery move for it's bulky set while Mega Blastiose doesn't. Those 2 things EASILY prevent Starmie from being 100% outclassed by this thing. We've already clarified how Starmie has advantages over the other hazard removers, too. Thus, Starmie deserves B rank.

Doublade and Mega Banette are pretty awful in the OU meta game, so don't say they are viable spin blockers in OU because they are not.

 

[Jukain]

can you guys stop bringing up irrelevant calcs oml... i don't even know what some of these arguments are. i don't need a calc to know starmie does crap to ferrothorn, that's not the point and all it does is distract from whatever you're trying to say.

the bulky starmie set actually does beat sr'ers, fwiw. landt gets tanked and bodied. it does fine vs lead terrak, scald down to the sash, not ohkoed by sedge if they go for that and can just spin. it shits on skarm. hippo, easy. heatran, easy. lando won't stay in. mamo is shit on. ferro, chomp, tar, and fable are sorta annoying but even then all of them but fable risk burns/plus you can actually 1v1 tar and ferro with reflect type between scald burn, spin, and recover. so don't act like it flounders vs all these rockers when it doesn't.

the only relevant spinblocker is gengar which starmie craps on, so there's no reason why it's relevant.

 

[Ptyra]

Why is Vaporeon not listed ?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Why is Vaporeon not listed ?

Simple: It has no niche. Vaporeon struggles to find much of a niche as a bulky Water-type over Suicune, Rotom-W, Slowbro, or Quagsire. All of these Pokemon bring something to the table that is unique and warrants them a slot on several teams, but Vaporeon doesn't provide much that warrants it a slot over them. It's pretty outclassed; the only thing it can do reasonably well is WishTect, but even though it's a bulky Water with WishTect, that combo is not needed in OU right now.

Vaporeon was okay when Baton Pass chains were a thing, but now it has no reason to be used on a serious OU team. It'll drop back down to UU where it belongs in the next tier shift anyways, as well.