XY Ubers (BAN ME PLEASE)h

disclaimer: I mean no harm with the title. It's a statement about how disgusting a mon on my team is to play against in the current meta and should in no way be interpreted as an offense toward anyone. hf reading. poopyheadh


I guess it's been a while since my last RMT, haven't really found much time or will to write something up in a long while but I guess here goes. As we have had a couple of users before me RMTing their Gengar teams (see Dice's and Aim's team, respectively) I felt I could contribute to the wave of Shadow Tag teams that are showcased because they help shape the meta and also show newer users how these "stag-teams" look like. I will try to keep this to the point. For the record I have been using it a bit in tournament games, especially the ongoing sub forum tour where Gengarite is banned. This is mostly to show naive users how only banning one of the Shadow Tag abusers hardly matters. Also used this during suspect testing where I peaked #1 kinda early (not only with this team), but it's not like it matters overly much.

Gothitelle was always a mon I had a love/hate relationship with. Although it completely dismantles the common support Arcues, specially defensive Palkia among stuff, it fares poorly against HO teams because of it's inherent lack of targets to set up on against that play style. Although TR can salvage it somewhat, this team actually deploys a different Gothitelle-set which is innovated, namely Heal Bell Gothitelle. I will get more to that when I talk about the individual mons.

Teambuilding process
I felt like the standard sun archetype with Ho-oh+Groudon+Palkia or a defog Arceus Water was criminally misplayed among the laddering and forum community. Henceforth it gets an awful lot of shit by top players as it is relatively passive, courtesy of the caution one most take in the defog war against the plethora of SR users in the tier. Early XY, this was bearable due to the hazard metagame being underdeveloped, but hazard users quickly changed: Dialga started packing Toxic, Lando-T started U-turning instead of blindly getting rocks up, and Groudon could use a Lum Berry Thunder Wave SR set that cripples your Arceus fatally. Before his leave, Donkey claimed that a defog balance needed a cleric to beat the wave of status spam, and this is correct. However, slapping on any cleric on sun inherently made the team even more Shadow Tag weak (Gengar/Goth traps bulky fairy clerics and the team also generally has the Defog Arceus that is a big target for Goth), and breaking stall proved something sun offense just couldn't do by anymore with the usual "slapping on a Life Orb Ho-oh and break stall mentality" that was in the early XY metagame. So I theorymonned a bunch one night and realized Gothitelle could give up a utility move on its standard Rest+CM+STAB set, and the utility move was of course Heal Bell. Now I had the choice of a cleric that was immune to Shadow Tag instead of being weak to it, and it also helped me breaking stall, taking out support Arceus and other things. My initial idea was not using sun offense, I experimented with spikes stacking teams who in my opinion are often very burn prone. It didn't work out for me, although it was mostly due to laziness in testing, so I decided to give the set a try on a sun team with a defog Arceus since I remembered how status prone and stall weak those teams tended to be.

Anyhow, I simply assembled my standard sun core: Groudon+Ho-oh+Arceus-Water. Slapped on Gothitelle for the support it could provide. Inspired by Melee Mewtwo, I felt like Kanga could be a nice choice since it helps out checking threats via Fake Out, some noteworhty ones being Xerneas and Ekiller of course. Kanga is very burn prone and definitely goes well together with Ho-oh, forming a duo that pressures their similar checks (see Lugia, Arceus-Water/Rock). This means you can force free turns where Gothitelle steps right in and removes those walls, giving me a surefire win condition. Lastly I wanted a Dark-type since I felt I needed a Psytrike sponge for MMY. Wasn't really much of a great team decision, it just happened to have to be that way, and I slapped on an Yveltal. Since I was rather MMX weak too, I decided scarf could be pretty nice, its piss weak U-turn has some nice synergy with Gothitelle and if you remove walls via Ho-oh+Goth, scarf Yveltal can clean up teams rather effectively.

Under the microscope


Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Roar

Groudon is essential for a team that uses offensive Ho-oh imo. Its advantages over Lando-T are noteworthy on this team, being able to phase out Ekiller and of course fueling up Ho-oh on occasion. Stealth Rock is a staple for obvious reason, I have seen ignorant users denying the usage of this move on their team because they carry Ho-oh and a defog Arceus. Stop doing this. It's bad. Controlling the hazard game is extremely important, sometimes you need SR up to limit some threats more than your opponent needs his SR up vs you. And after eliminating a defogger with Goth and KOing the opposing SR setter, you can opt to make rocks stay for the rest of the game, which ofc helps the cleaners of the team, Yveltal and Kanga. Earthquake is strong and STAB and Stone Edge is there for obvious flaming turkey reasons. Roar's main niche being able to stop Ekiller, but also prevents greedy GeoXerneas or such to set up, always nice to have and definitely needed to facilitate defensive Groudon's niche over Lando-T.

EVs are standard, not much to say.


Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 52 SpD / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Thunder Wave
- Roost

T-Wave Ho-oh gets a lot of laughs against it. All people who are dissing this, fuck you, you suck. T-wave Ho-oh is absolutely needed so Ho-oh can check most Xerneas when healthy. It also slows down Arceus-formes, Yveltal, Darkrai etc, which is a godsend. Other than that the set is pretty standard, if you read my RMTs previously I have talked about Ho-oh too much anyway. Brave Bird because obvious STAB is obvious and Sacred Fire because best physical move in the game. Roost is needed on LO Ho-oh as it is quite the tank. My EVs are optimized to take a +2 Xern Thunder at full, some speed creep and rest for hitting hard. The Goth support enables me to remove Arceus-Rock very easily, making this executable against pretty much any team.

PS: i hope edgar enjoys this set.


Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

As explained, Kanga allows for somewhat "lazy" team building. It does check a lot of fast threats and emergency answers to Xerneas for example. Other than that, it's a pretty hard hitting mon. I feel the set I use is needed here, it's absolutely standard with EQ being there for Dialga mainly, Sucker P for more priority is always nice in the metagame and Return for STAB. For a gimmicky tour setting i guess shit like Ice Beam, Double Edge, Fire Blast, Low Kick etc can work but this is the most consistent set for a reason. As mentioned, the synergy with Gothitelle is enormous, Heal Bell allows me to play even worse than when you normally pair Kanga+Goth, which is nice for me since I suck.

Using Jolly nature is better than Adamant in any tour setting but I guess you could get away with using adamant on ladder.


Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Defog

Haters gonna hate. But really, this mon is in general more consistent than any support Arceus forme for this type of team. It doesn't aggravate the team's weakness to anything and checks a bunch of threats like Kyogre, Dialga, Lando-T, Yveltal etc. This is my primary answer to Kyogre, although Kyogre can Thunder this team isn't as passive as most sun balance teams and can punish a choiced Kyogre severely with Gothitelle. This is general what I actually like the most about the team, a simple Groudon sack for sun and you have a +6 Goth vs the whale. Since Waterceus can be overpowered by Kyogre much easier than Grassceus, who can hit it hard, this is a main point that I feel the need to address. Again, the support Goth provides with Heal Bell is impressive. By burning a Dialga lead while taking the Toxic, you'd normally lose the war of attrition to said mon, Heal Bell Goth ensures a 100 % safe way of stalling Roar-less Dialga out as well as taking away the crippling status on my Defoger. Very nifty support indeed. Compression is rather important in the meta and I feel Waterceus does the most of what it's got here. It is Gothitelle weak so that's a match up I might lose, though one has to remember a Kyogre+Goth tactic can easily backfire as Kyogre boosts my STAB Judgment to a point where it can 2HKO Goth on the switch in. Also remember than Groudon+Goth can trap and kill my opponents Kyogre in an emergency so all isn't lost if you lose this mon, but play it carefully anyway.

EVs are catered for sdef since Kyogre. Also nice to avoid LO Yveltal 2HKO all the time. Speed for Kia. Standard is standard yet again.


Yveltal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn
- Foul Play
- Oblivion Wing

It might seem like a pretty cut off mon from the Gothitelle concept, but it really appreciates having walls removed since it is rather weak. As I said, I needed an obligatory Psystrike sponge and MMX check so here we are. Yveltal glues the team together pretty nicely I feel. Dark Pulse is nice and obvious, rking MMY and Gengar is nice af. U-turn should be used wisely, it's piss weak and this Yveltal isn't as good at building momentum as it seems. Pretty nice synergy with Goth in general. Foul Play prevents Ekiller to set up, I also live a +2 Espeed so I got that going for me which is nice. OWing is a broken move on LO Yveltal but it's kinda piss here. Still needed for the occasional MMX (pretty dull mon btw) and can grant some recovery. Sleep Talk can be used but with Heal Bell and the decline of Darkrai's usage I don't think it's that necessary.

EVs are pretty inefficient since I haven't had the will to make any good ones yet, I will though and update this. Modest nature grants me a tiny bit of extra power.


Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Heal Bell

I think I have gotten sick of the term "star of the show" or "big kahuna" but what the hell here is the star of the show. Goth is fucking broken as fuck and this set is my personal take on a mon that has been used successfully by many top players. Rest+CM+Psyshock are staples, although Psychic can be used I like going 1v1 against the occasional CM Arc I happen to trap. These three moves are all Gothitelle needs to remove a vast majority of the support meta, stuff like conventional Defog Arceus (not ghost among a few) as well as Roar-less Dialga/sdef Kia and Klefki just to name a few. As mentioned WoW Arceus being removed means Kanga can wreck havoc on the opposing team, Ho-oh's only counter gets trapped, Yveltal gets some bulky walls (fairys) out of the way.

Heal Bell is the gem of the set, I think it's a very fun and rather effective move, although I can partly agree on its flaws (hi Kebabe). I would be lying to myself and you all if I said that a team with a defog Arceus doesn't need anti status support. An absorber is in all honestly not easy to find, sdef Ogre doesn't fit for example, and even then there is no absorber that can beat all status users anyway. Being able to Heal Bell off burns from Kanga and Groudon, poison from Ho-oh and Arceus-Water and Thunder Wave from Yveltal is just so flexible. The way you play Heal Bell Goth is similar to a standard Goth. You find a mon you wanna trap, trap it and do you CM+rest thing, and then spend a turn on clearing status from your team should i be relevant to do so. Really easy to execute, although it lacks TR Goths sweeping potential, it can still remove defensive threats opening up for team mates to abuse the holes it created.

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Roar

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 52 SpD / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Thunder Wave
- Roost

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Defog

Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Heal Bell

Yveltal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn
- Foul Play
- Oblivion Wing


If you wanna try out another, less common Shadow Tag mon than Gengar, do try this team. Of course this team has flaws and bad match ups like any team. If you comment about Eleceus i will get Fireburns revolver. Zekrom can be nasty since it can spam dragon moves. Don't fuck around with Yveltal either.

Shoutouts
Kebabe
Isa
Steelskitty
Edgar
Orch
Tomahawk
Steve Angello
Dice
Donkey
Problems
Melee Mewtwo
Malefic
Arsenal
Fireburn
Sweep
BKC
CTC
IDM you are all cool
#scooters i love you all
anyone I might have missed who deserves it

Thanks more making my time around the forums/server nice n clean
 
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Small change, but your Ho-Ohs spread leaves it at an even HP number for rocks. -4 HP +4 Atk

nope, non factor, it has regenerator
Of course, my mistake, too used to Talonflame.

It looks like Ghostceus is one of your biggest threats here, since Goth cant trap it, theres no Toxic to wear it down, and Yveltal is the only thing you have to hit it hard. Edgars suggestion of classic banded Ho-Oh seems like a decent way to mitigate this.
 
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Ugh, I can't believe I clicked the like button. Everything about this team will mean cancer to play against over and over on the ladder. Then again, Scarf Ygod, Waterceus, and Kanga + Goth pleases me. :> The synergy here is really pretty.

The thing that bothers me most about having Water Arceus be Tag fodder (for goth at least), is that this team definitely dislikes having to deal with SR in play. Tag + X beats every team, though, so there's not really much you can do about that.
 
Hello Hack, fren. Very nice team, very nice example of a well built Gothitelle team, showcasing how gay annoying it can be, there's not much that can be changed about the team but I do have a suggestion that could make the team a bit better.

I suggest you to use Banded Ho-Oh over your Mexican set. Although you can paralyze Xerneas and other threats with it, I think Choice Band Ho-Oh is more effective in terms of being a Gothitelle's sidekick as second stallbreaker and just keeping more offensive presence in general. I also really like how Choice Band Ho-Oh can abuse Yveltal's U-turn, switching into Yveltal's checks. Anyways the EV spread I would use on this team is: 208 HP / 184 Atk / 100 SpD / 16 Spe with an Adamant nature, this allows you to take one +2 Thunder from Modest Xerneas and do about 90-106% with Sacred Fire in sun. If you don't manage to get sun up or even get a burn on Xerneas, that's fine because you still have Kangaskhan who can proceed to Fake Out and kill the Xerneas. The moves are pretty much the ones used in the standard set. Sacred Fire and Brave Bird being pretty strong STAB moves, Earthquake for Heatran and Arceus-Rock. Last but definetely not least, Sleep Talk, this move allows you to switch into Darkrai (kind of a weakness your team has since no Fairy), absorb the Dark Void and retaliate back with one of the moves.


Big Bird @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 208 HP / 184 Atk / 100 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk


Very nice team, Good luck! :]
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
If Edgar's explanation of that Ho-Oh set hasn't sold it to you yet, the HP number also has hidden perks in there. It is both a Regenerator number and a Stealth Rock number, meaning this Ho-Oh lives 1 more switch in to Stealth Rock than your current one. I highly advise Edgar's change be used. CB Ho-Oh works so well with Goth it is rediculous.
 
Well our first version was like Icebeam Kanga and Stomb over Yveltal cuz Mewtwo Pursuit and switchin. Both teams work but Ygod version is more solid.

Thanks for RMTing it can t use it in the finals of that Frenstour anymore... -.-
 
I've played against this team and got owned by it, especially because of TW Ho-Oh.... I love the idea of heal bell goth a lot, and I'll probably rip your team and make it worse later on subconsciously. My only major criticism for this team is that the team is arguably goth weak, unless you get every single 50/50 with waterceus switch in right. Once goth removes your waterceus, then opponent can easily set up sr which cripples two of your mons. And, you can resolve this issue by using punishment over will-o-wisp which, also has benefit of 2hkoing gengar on switch. But, I know that we've discussed about punishment on supportarc in depth, and you probably will keep wow regardless.

I think that twave ho-oh is a bit over the top and silly but it have wrecked me because of surprise factor. So, I'm not sure what to say about ho-oh here lol. Besides your brazilian ho-oh, I love this team.
 
I faced this team and I have to say it's one of the most annoying and hardest teams to face for all HO, balance and stall. Groudon+goth+khan+waterceus is so bitch and add scarf foul play yveltal and ho oh to it and you got yourself the recipe to incurable cancer. Plus I like how this rmt demonstrates the unhealthy nature of shadow tag.
9.5/10 would give your opponent cancer.
 

haxiom

God's not dead.
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hey Hack,

Cool team. Gothitelle is easily one of the scariest mons out there, and this team uses and showcases its abilities very well. Also, the synergy overall is really nice. Yveltal seems like the biggest threat, since it is able to dead stop the teams "star of the show" as well as cause a lot of trouble. I mean, in general this team doesn't have super strong checks to everything (for example, Ho-Oh falls to Xerneas if rocks are up, Groudon is a 1-2 time check to Ekiller and only phazes) meaning that you are pressured to keep Kangaskhan alive, as well as clear hazards somewhat consistently. Due to the necessity to clear hazards, this ironically makes opposing stag (especially Goth) annoying for this team.

Overall the team is very good so I don't have too many changes. For checking certain threats, especially dragons and Yveltal, having a fairy would be really nice. The main issue with making these changes is that the synergy is so strong that it's almost impossible to shift around team slots and condense stuff, which is unfortunate. As for the CB Ho-Oh, that seems kind of nice- Twave is cool but since you are RMTing this it loses its surprise factor a bit. As for the stag weakness, I guess one thing you could do is run Punishment on Waterceus over WoW, though I'm not sure how important it is for this team. I guess Ho-Oh helps spread burns a lot. Atm an opponent bringing Goth is a really bad matchup for you so it might be helpful. So yeah, in short fitting a fairy is nice but difficult. To deal with stag, Punishment>WoW is an option on Waterceus.

OPTIMIZATION:

I mean in general I am a pretty big fan of hitting entry hazard numbers, so you definitely could hit some if you wanted. Also special attackers should run 0 Atk IVs.


Good luck!
 

Mix

mahmood soldi
is a Past WCoP Champion
Hei Hack, great team, only one things, change return with frustration on Mega-Kangashkan, if ditto copy it, the frustration power has 1 base power.
 

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