Bottom up team building via "roles"

[Aldaron]

So CTC's thread here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/team-archive-by-ctc.3513518/page-3#post-5635265 is a pretty solid "top-down" approach to providing community services for team building; namely, he provides the team and then provides justification for its formation.

I basically want to start a series of topics to contribute to the community's ability to team build.

This topic will look to provide a resource for bottom up team building, but that's an extremely expansive topic, so I'm more looking to limit this simply to being a collection of Pokemon that fill certain roles.

After getting that list compiled, we can talk about adding how to actually use / fit / combine them.

So the initial goals for this topic are threefold: first, compile a list of roles, second, define the roles in easy to understand terms, and third, compile a list of Pokemon for those roles.

I'd like to approach this with some sort of hierarchical organization system, meaning instead of having "Offensive Stealth Rockers" and "Defensive Stealth Rockers" as top level categories, I'd prefer "Entry Hazard Setters" first level -> "Stealth Rockers" "Spikers" "Toxic Spikers" second level -> then "Offensive Stealth Rockers" and "Defensive Stealth Rockers" under "Stealth Rockers"

^ That's simply because we can then use tags and the like to automate information gathering more efficiently. Also, this means if you have suggestions on how to better organize it top down, I'd really appreciate you sharing them with me. Finally, I also don't want this to be TOO abstracted in its organization. For example, I don't want the highest levels to be "offensive" "defensive" "balanced" "support" and then "hazards setters" and "defoggers" under support, because I don't feel the higher level gives much information and I want each level to have at least some subjective level of information. Also, I don't want the Pokemon lists to be ALL Pokemon that could feasibly fit into those roles...it should be viable ones only (obviously subjective).

I'll get started:

- Entry Hazard Setters: can set up any or some combination of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and/or Toxic Spikes

* Stealth Rockers

> Offensive Stealth Rockers
> Defensive Stealth Rockers​

* Spikers

> Offensive Spikers
> Defensive Spikers ​

* Toxic Spikers (do you guys this role is necessary? Maybe we can just dump in a general misc category or something)

> Offensive Toxic Spikers
> Defensive Toxic Spikers
​

- Entry Hazards Removers: can use any of Defog or Rapid Spin

* Defoggers

> Offensive Defoggers
> Defensive Defoggers​

* Rapid Spinners

> Offensive Rapid Spinners
> Defensive Rapid Spinners​

- Pivots: Can use any of U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass or be able to take a wide array of attacks in order to preserve or regain momentum for their side

* U-turners
* Volt Switchers
* Baton Passers (do you guys this role is necessary? Maybe we can just dump in a general misc category or something)
* Assault Vest Users

> Offensive AV
> Defensive AV
​

- Sweepers: Can sweep using a wide array of attacks or buffs, generally characterized as Pokemon meant to come in mid to late game as well as stay out for multiple consecutive turns

* Dragon Dancers
* Swords Dancers
* Nasty Plotters
* Calm Minders
* Should I include Choice Scarfers here too? Not sure about this. In previous gens, Scarfers particularly on Hazards teams, were certainly viable sweepers, but I'm seeing this purpose less emphasized and the "checking sweepers" purpose more emphasized for Scarfers nowadays.​

- Attackers: Can hit the opposition hard, but not necessarily sweep through well made teams, generally characterized as Pokemon meant to come in at any point in the game and stay out for a small number of turns

* Choice Banders
* Choice Specs users
* Mixed attackers ​

- Walls: Can handle strong attacks

* Physical
* Special
* Mixed ​

- Stall Breakers: Can break common stall cores

* Taunters
* MoldBreakers
* Should I include attackers / sweepers here too?​

- Sweeper Checks: Can prevent a sweep using some unique factor

* Choice Scarfers
* Priority Users
* Unaware Users​

^ That seems like a decent start for the top level, as it mostly encompasses stall / balance / offense teams and even the highest levels have a good amount of information. There is obviously going to be a lot of double dipping here, but I think that's ok. Pokemon can perform roles.

Please first suggest changes / additions to the organizational hierarchy as well as anything to do with the roles. Once we're settled on that, we can start filling in with Pokemon.

The ultimate goal for this series of guides will be article + dex integration, namely each example Pokemon will link to the appropriate set in the dex. This way we'll be providing information and examples directly.

 

[Aldaron]

I just realized this forum has literally 0 visibility from the main forums page, so I'll tag appropriate people.

Please tag anyone you think I missed.

BKC CrashinBoomBang panamaxis McMeghan Nachos reyscarface gr8astard Dice @manimtoolazytocontinuethisjusttagmorepeopleplease

 

[Aldaron]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-pokemon-categorization-thread.3510963/

^ that thread is very close what I'm going for, but more specifically with what I explicitly entailed as well as more direct contribution from the VR crowd

The goal of this is to work with multiple other topics and eventually become part of an articles / dex integrated team building resource, so I need to kind of re-do that topic with future goals in mind from the beginning (and emphasize organization / hierarchies / etc)

 

[Aldaron]

Bloo Chou Toshio Ciele DTC ENZ0 Eo Ut Mortus Fireburn Golden Sun Haunter JabbaTheGriffin jpw234 Knight of Cydonia Limitless M Dragon mien MikeDawg Nog Pocket alexwolf Stathakis Steven Snype Tesung TheFourthChaser X5Dragon

man I wish you could tag groups -_-

 

[haunter]

Unbirthday

 

[Nog]

question, who is deciding what is viable and what is not? Is the council alone deciding it or is everything subject to discussion from anyone helping out? Other than that I can start working on this immidiately.

EDIT: Would like to have user Halcyon. added to your list, he is far better at team building than some of the other users you have on the list. Thanks.

 

[Trinitrotoluene]

not one of the people tagged, but the only real users of baton pass nowadays that i've seen are quickpassers that set up and pass boosts along to a teammate, so i think a miscellaneous category that included them and some other roles that i can't think of at the moment would be just fine imo. of course, please correct me if i'm wrong.

tagging aim and chimpact

 

[MikeDawg]

I believe that some kind of "wallbreaker" role should be added to the second level of "Stall Breakers." How to categorize that is more difficult.

Typical mons that would fall under this category are Subcm Mons, Medicham/Mawile/Heracross/etc., Strong mixed attackers.

Categorization is made even more difficult by the fact that some mons are natural wallbreakers simply by virtue of their anti-meta coverage as opposed to straight-up power. I can't think of an ou example rn, but a very good RU example is life orb clawitzer. Slowking is the premier special wall in the tier, and clawitzer's access to "STAB" dark pulse demolishes it. There are much stronger mons like Exploud, but the meta isn't as tailored to them as far as stallbreaking goes. Same with Virizion. It can hit Rhyperior, the premier physical wall, for 4x damage

I think that trappers should also be its own level-2 category (gothitelle, maybe dugtrio).

Perhaps some sort of Trick Room representation as well. This could fall into the same misc category that Trin mentioned. Setters is probably the only relevant cateogry, as the incorporation of "sweepers"/wallbreakers could be explained in the future teambuilding explainations.

 

[Aldaron]

question, who is deciding what is viable and what is not? Is the council alone deciding it or is everything subject to discussion from anyone helping out? Other than that I can start working on this immidiately.

EDIT: Would like to have user Halcyon. added to your list, he is far better at team building than some of the other users you have on the list. Thanks.

...

Do you REALLY expect me to be able to tag every viable team builder from the list of around 500 people who have access here -_-

Anyway, viability will be decided by...subjectively arbitrary means. Won't be the council, won't be me unilaterally, pretty much just some combination of various factors, heavily including discussion here.

IF I DIDN'T TAG YOU IT IS ALMOST THE DEFINITION OF NO OFFENSE AS THERE ARE LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WITH ACCESS HERE (badged members + pr are here too)

Please contribute anyway.

 

[X5Dragon]

I was building a draft "auto team" builder in a notepad and have done decent progress with it so far, and have delved into details such as:

Bird Spam Check:
-----------------------

Hide

Tyranitar
Scarf Landrous-T
Thundrus with T-wave
Scarf Terra
Scarf Drill
Scarf Jirachi

DD/Speedster Check:
----------------------------

Hide

Scarf Keldeo
Thundrus with T-wave
CB Talonflame
Scarf Terra
Scarf Chomp

Fairy killer:
---------------

Hide

Bisharp
Excadrill
MScizor
Physical Jirachi
LO Gengar

Also I agree that BP's (e.g. Scolipede) might be better as miscellaneous, and we can include a trapper section as MikeDawg said (Shadow Tag, Pursuit Trapper).

Anyway here is what I think the initial list should look like:


Entry Hazard Setters:

* Stealth Rockers

> Offensive Stealth Rockers

> Defensive Stealth Rockers

* Spikers


- Hazard Removers:

* Defoggers

* Rapid Spinners


- Pivots:

* Volt-Turn

* Assault Vest Users

- Attackers:

* Physical Set-Ups

* Special Set-Ups

* Choice Bands

* Choice Specs

* Mixed attackers


- Walls:

* Physical

* Special

* Mixed



- Playstyle Checks

* Stall Killer

* Bird Spam Check

* Speedster Check (DD, Rock Polish, Tailwind, Sand Rush, Swift Swim and base 115+)

* Fairy Killer:


- Miscellaneous

* Toxic Spikers

* Baton Passers:

* Trick Room Setters:

*Trappers:

>Shadow Tag: >Pursuit Trapping:

 

[Vert]

Jukain

lol. how you miss that one

anyways, the tspikers and baton pass should go under misc category

For sweepers section, add an Other category for sweepers that dont use those listed moves like BD Azumarill, RP Landorus-I, Double Dance Lando-T for example as well.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I believe that some kind of "wallbreaker" role should be added to the second level of "Stall Breakers." How to categorize that is more difficult.

Typical mons that would fall under this category are Subcm Mons, Medicham/Mawile/Heracross/etc., Strong mixed attackers.

Categorization is made even more difficult by the fact that some mons are natural wallbreakers simply by virtue of their anti-meta coverage as opposed to straight-up power. I can't think of an ou example rn, but a very good RU example is life orb clawitzer. Slowking is the premier special wall in the tier, and clawitzer's access to "STAB" dark pulse demolishes it. There are much stronger mons like Exploud, but the meta isn't as tailored to them as far as stallbreaking goes. Same with Virizion. It can hit Rhyperior, the premier physical wall, for 4x damage

I think that trappers should also be its own level-2 category (gothitelle, maybe dugtrio).

Perhaps some sort of Trick Room representation as well. This could fall into the same misc category that Trin mentioned. Setters is probably the only relevant cateogry, as the incorporation of "sweepers"/wallbreakers could be explained in the future teambuilding explainations.

I agree with both of these. Pretty much every offensive team needs some sort of Wallbreaker. Charizard-Y, Mega-Mawile, and Excadrill come to mind.
Trappers, I agree should be considered, but are significantly less mandatory. Gothitelle is really the only viable trapper in today's OU, but trapping is really good considering that it makes otherwise shitmons viable in OU.

I also think Counter/Mirror Coat users such as Wobbuffet, Skarmory, Gengar, and Gothitelle should be added. The former is a simple trap and counter while the latter are good surprise checks to setup sweepers. Skarmory works especially well with Counter due to having access to Sturdy.
Off Topic: 500th post! Yay!

 

[Limitless]

Aldaron, I know this is in the OU section, but would you like me to start prepping this for UU?

 

[Aldaron]

Limitless, that is the ultimate goal (to have the other official tiers follow it), but before we start doing it, I'd like to get the format (organizational hierarchy) down pat first for OU.

This way, with the eventual dex integration, everything goes far more smoothly.

 

[Unbirthday]

Entry Hazard Setters

*Offensive Stealth Rockers

*Defensive Stealth Rockers

*Offensive Spikers

*Defensive Spikers

*Offensive Toxic Spikers

*Defensive Toxic Spikers

 

[Jukain]

bird check is a really important role in the meta so you don't get rolled by pinsir and talonflame, two highly relevant and dangerous threats that will rip apart unprepared teams. stuff:

Hide

Choice Scarf Tyranitar
Raikou
Mega Manectric
Zapdos
Rotom-W
Thundurus
Choice Scarf/Sand Rush Excadrill
Choice Scarf Heatran
Mega Aerodactyl
Rhyperior

taunt stallbreakers

Hide

Gengar
Gliscor
Mega Aerodactyl
Mew
Sableye
Thundurus
Victini

offensive defoggers

Hide

Latios
Latias

defensive defoggers:

Hide

Mandibuzz
Mew
Mega Scizor
Skarmory
Togekiss
Zapdos

offensive rapid spinners

Hide

Excadrill
Starmie

defensive rapid spinners

Hide

Mega Blastoise

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

"Lead" pokemon are something you might want to add under hazard setters. They aren't as prominent since the Deos were banned but they are still the way some team building starts for example sash terrakion, sash chomp and shuckle.

Also maybe a "tank" section under attackers for the pokemon whose role is to both take and dish out hits. These might be already covered in other sections I'm not sure.

"Scarfers" seem reasonable to put under sweepers. Scarf chomp and scarf exca for example end a lot of games this gen.

Can't think of much else seems pretty comprehensive already.

 

[aim]

...

Do you REALLY expect me to be able to tag every viable team builder from the list of around 500 people who have access here -_-

Anyway, viability will be decided by...subjectively arbitrary means. Won't be the council, won't be me unilaterally, pretty much just some combination of various factors, heavily including discussion here.

IF I DIDN'T TAG YOU IT IS ALMOST THE DEFINITION OF NO OFFENSE AS THERE ARE LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WITH ACCESS HERE (badged members + pr are here too)

Please contribute anyway.

Offended that Aldaron didn't tag me. will contribute later today/this week

 

[LightningLuxray]

I think something we should be careful with is adding Pokemon just for the sake of adding shit... there's a lot of Pokemon I see that really isn't viable, lol.

Like, why is Dragalge listed as a Toxic Spikes user? And offensive TSpikes... Greninja? Really?

I mean really, what actually seriously runs Toxic Spikes in OU anymore? The only things I can really see being added are maybe Weezing, maybe Scolipede, and maybe Tentacruel, but besides that, a lot of this other shit seems p unviable, lol.

Also, nothing runs Shell Smash in OU besides SmashPass Gorebyss anymore, which goes under Baton Pass for obvious reasons. Omastar runs Specs on Rain teams (aka the only teams it's used on) and Cloyster has like no setup opportunities, is weak to SR, and has no way to get past most bulky Water-types.

On a side note, how are we deciding who gets to write up what sections? I'm wondering if we're already jumping ahead and adding Pokemon to certain roles before we've even discussed what the roles even are. I think we should define the roles before we add the mons (Maybe we fully completed this step and I missed this? idk @_@)

Anyways, I think we should have a separate "Rain Abusers" or "Swift Swim Users" thing where Kingdra / Kabutops / etc go, as well as a "lead" section for shit like TTar / Garchomp / Terrak / Mamoswine / Azelf / etc.

It's like 4:00 AM so sorry if anything I say sounds weird / stupid.

 

[MikeDawg]

This is just my opinion, but I don't think that we should include specific roles like "bird spam check" or "fairy killer."

If a pokemon's ONLY purpose is to accomplish one of these ultra-particular roles, then it has no business in ou. Tyranitar, for example, is a lovely bird spam check, but it is also a sweeper or stealth rock setter etc., and so it is represented there.

Bird spam check is moreso a consideration in teambuilding, not an actual role. from my understanding, frameworks and the like belong in the "how to combine all of this" section.

Then if the user, for example, needs both a spikes user and their team also happens to be weak to birds, then they can find the best mon for that purpose (probably rock or steel type) in the spikes section (skarmory) and add it to the team. Finding a spikes user amongst the birdspam check category is far more difficult.

the same thing can be done to /efficiently/ (ie. Have as many things covered as possible without redundancy) satisfy whatever framework


Basically, i think that we should minimize the overlap between frameworks and team roles

 

[X5Dragon]

If you look at the initial draft list posted by Aldaron and the several suggestions that followed, the main roles are "Hazard Setter", "Sweeper Checks", etc. and the rest are specific, detailed roles, for example SR setter, Unaware, Bird Spam Check. Most pokemon will never fulfill single role in a team, for example Mamoswine is/can be a lead, priority user, SR setter, etc. and falls under many categories.

You say let the user find a good bird spam check in the spikes section, well how is he going to know what is good and consistent as a bird spam check if we don't tell him? Even if we did a separate team framework/building elements and explain the role of Bird Spam check, shouldn't we as expert players suggest the best for the role?

There is nothing preventing a pokemon from being included in more than one role (Dragonite: DDer, CB, etc.) and at the same time there is nothing to prevent the user from opening more than one list and see who fits better in the team (for example: Defensive Wall List, Defensive Spikes List).

However we should be eliminating roles that are either completely unviable or at the very least move them to the Miscellaneous section, and combine roles that have only one/very few viable users to a better sub-category. For example, we got Tail Glow Manaphy and QD Volcarona who can be grouped under a "Special Set up Sweeper" category with the set up move being put in parenthesis next to the mons name.

 

[MikeDawg]

If you look at the initial draft list posted by Aldaron and the several suggestions that followed, the main roles are "Hazard Setter", "Sweeper Checks", etc. and the rest are specific, detailed roles, for example SR setter, Unaware, Bird Spam Check. Most pokemon will never fulfill single role in a team, for example Mamoswine is/can be a lead, priority user, SR setter, etc. and falls under many categories.

I hope that you can recognize the difference between rock setter, unaware user, and bird spam check (and im not just talking about the fact that the latter is the only one that you mentioned that isn't actually in the op...)

Stealth rock setter is a universal hazard-setter role. unaware user is a universal means by which to check all setup sweepers.

Bird spam check is a universal means to check... Birds (which is not a top level category, which is the point of tier 2 categories).

It really isn't all that difficult to determine what a bird spam check is (bulky, possibly fast, resists flying...), and all of that will be included in the actual "how to teambuild section"

Ie. "A bird spam check typically required for a succesful team. This has the following characteristics:"

They can then go to whatever major category they still require and fill in the mon that fits in as a bird spam check.

It's cleaner and more efficient

 

[X5Dragon]

I hope that you can recognize the difference between rock setter, unaware user, and bird spam check (and im not just talking about the fact that the latter is the only one that you mentioned that isn't actually in the op...)

Stealth rock setter is a universal hazard-setter role. unaware user is a universal means by which to check all setup sweepers.

Bird spam check is a universal means to check... Birds (which is not a top level category, which is the point of tier 2 categories).

It really isn't all that difficult to determine what a bird spam check is (bulky, possibly fast, resists flying...), and all of that will be included in the actual "how to teambuild section"

Ie. "A bird spam check typically required for a succesful team. This has the following characteristics:"

They can then go to whatever major category they still require and fill in the mon that fits in as a bird spam check.

It's cleaner and more efficient

The first level category is the universal role, the second are its detailed subcategories, which for me, Jukain and others (which is the reason I said: "and the several suggestions that followed" but you ignored that) meant that Bird Spam Check is a sub category for Sweeper Check as it is prominent enough and unique enough to deserve its grand total of 5-9 extra lines in the list.

I would hope that something that is typically required for a successful team to be considered a major category, but we'll have to agree to disagree about this. Again, many types of people will be visiting the list to teambuild and choose what is viable, including a lot of new players.

 

[MikeDawg]

The first level category is the universal role, the second are its detailed subcategories, which for me, Jukain and others (which is the reason I said: "and the several suggestions that followed" but you ignored that) meant that Bird Spam Check is a sub category for Sweeper Check as it is prominent enough and unique enough to deserve its grand total of 5-9 extra lines in the list.

I would hope that something that is typically required for a successful team to be considered a major category, but we'll have to agree to disagree about this. Again, many types of people will be visiting the list to teambuild and choose what is viable, including a lot of new players.

I think that my concern with this, aside from efficiency, is where we draw the line between "framework" and "sub-role."

Don't we also need a scolipass check? Taking stab hydro pumps and close combats is definitely a must. Do we need to add scald protection? Earthquake spam? Spore absorbers? Sucker punch counters?

Each of these things are basically required to make a successful team, bird spam included. May I pull from Dice's Framework therad?

Balanced Team:

• 2 Water-resistances if there is a "strong Water resist like Specially Defensive Rotom-W; 3 of them if you lack a strong one.
• 2 Fighting-resistances
• A Ground-type Pokemon
• A Dragon or some other way to check Sun-teams
• A Steel-type Pokemon to check Lati@s
• A Pokemon that has a good matchup against most other leads; often this can be more than one teamslot to match up against all common leads
• A priority-user with the capability of OHKO'ing Terrakion
• Checks and counters to all common Pokemon

This is from b/w, so things like 3 water resists aren't necessary anymore. Perhaps we can add "One or two strong flying resists" in its place? It would, in my opinion, fit such a format perfectly. My point is that trying to fit all of these things into actual "roles" is a futile endeavor; there is just far too much to add, and throwing in a particular one without the rest is both inconsistent and in poor style.

Let's not forget that these categories are nothing more than generalized banks of pokemon, from what I have gathered. The real substance will come in the "how to actually use / fit / combine them" section mentioned in the OP, as that is where these frameworks and intricacies will actually come into play in order to create proper synergy and efficiency.

 

[X5Dragon]

I think that my concern with this, aside from efficiency, is where we draw the line between "framework" and "sub-role."

Well obviously both the line drawing and efficiency are bound to be subjective and usually determined by community census, but mostly we can agree on what is too obvious to list (common pokemon knowledge) and keeping a set number of levels in place (I guess it's 3 here), for example adding a 4 level in the SR section just for pokemon who can't be taunted (or have magic coat) would be both too obvious and mess with the hierarchy we are trying to establish.

Don't we also need a scolipass check? Taking stab hydro pumps and close combats is definitely a must. Do we need to add scald protection? Earthquake spam? Spore absorbers? Sucker punch counters?

This is a valid concern of yours and I will try to address this. The above can be sufficiently covered by what is available atm, the Wall section in addition to the part of common pokemon knowledge that is too obvious to list (type resistances).

However, if baton pass chain was, by some dark and evil wizardry still allowed in OU, I would hope there would be a category where pokemon who successfully shut them down, as these pokemon neither fall in the wall section or the taunt section entirely, as they would fall into a new category where phazing moves, taunt and abilities that ignore stat boosts would help counter those teams.

Likewise, I believe that list of requirements that describe a successful and consistent berd (aka bird) spam checker to be too vague wide to fit in the existent categories and too important not to list anywhere. I mean we can just do as you said, leave him with a set of descriptions, but he will look for a list, if not in this thread then elsewhere.

We can also try to list this in the team building section, but then the bird spam element would be the only section where pokemon are mentioned and listed by name when there is already a bank below, which I don't think is good style either.

The real substance will come in the "how to actually use / fit / combine them" section mentioned in the OP, as that is where these frameworks and intricacies will actually come into play in order to create proper synergy and efficiency.

Right, I imagine this will follow a similar tier where universal team styles are listed (HO, Bulky Offense, Balance and Stall) and then their subcategories listed and explained like what Dice did. Something along the lines of Hazard setter, Hazard removal, Defensive cores, etc. will be named and explained, and the player would easily then move down to the bank section and start viewing the lists.

Edit: Not vague, too wide a definition. Anyway I really don't have anything more to add to the suggestion I just felt that more explanation was needed.