CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[NumberCruncher]

Heatran can be set up on because its only threat is WoW and it is slower. ZardX can't because it can DD in our face and KO with Dragon Claw. ZardY's Solar Beam is problematic.

Ideally, CAP baits Ground types and Steel types, as Gyarados has the best matchups against them and they have poorer options against it.The threat of burns from both Water and Fire types makes them undesirable to bait. Ghost and Dark types are good bait after Gyarados Mega Evolves, but not before.

XZard can't KO with Dragon Claw after Dragon Dance.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 265-313 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
whereas
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 374-442 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, this means we have to have no Priority stacked against us, but that's pretty much going to stop us no matter what we try to set up on.

So the list looks like

Bisharp (Dark/Steel)
Chansey (Normal)
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets)
Crawduant (Water/Dark)
Excadrill (Ground/Steel)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Greninja (Water/Dark)
Heatran (Fire/Steel)
Keldeo (Water/Fighting)
Landorus Base/Therian (Flying/Ground)
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice)
Scizor Base (Bug/Steel)

Though Chansey is not really the ideal Pokemon to set up on thanks to Toxic/Wish stall, which severely cuts how much sweep we can accomplish.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

What Pokemon does Mega Gyarados threaten?

Mega Gyarados threatens anything that doesn't have:

- A resistance or immunity to Water (as well as Earthquake; Bounce can be switched out of)
- A means to afflict status other than Poison with little or no risk (i.e. Prankster)
- A Grass/Bug/Fighting/Fairy/Electric move that hits Water/Dark typing for hard super effective damage
- Mach Punch


What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?

It's bulky enough to set up on pretty much anything that can't hit one of its weak points hard, status it quickly, or Encore its Dragon Dance with Prankster. Common OU Pokemon it can set up on with relative ease include Mega Charizard X, Espeon, Greninja, Tyranitar and its Mega, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Gliscor, Talonflame, and Terrakion. Many of these threats are easier for Mega Gyarados to deal with after they have had their Attack power cut by Gyarados's Intimidate in its original form. Other Pokemon that aren't necessarily OU but are sometimes used in OU teams include Chandelure, Mega Houndoom, Tentacruel, and Victini.

If it waits to Mega Evolve and retains its original form while setting up, the list changes and can actually set up on other important things like Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Mega Medicham (Thunder Punch is not standard on it), Volcarona, and Conkeldurr (providing it does not have Stone Edge, which is reasonably uncommon).

It might be ideal to have the CAP Pokemon be weak to some of these Pokemon so that Mega Gyarados can cover its weak points. One that is weak to Fire and/or Ground might suit this idea.


What is Mega Gyarados afraid of?

Mega Gyarados is afraid of Pokemon that resist Water as well as one of its preferred other types of moves (Bounce or Earthquake) or nullify damage from it with an ability, while also being able to hit back at one of its weak points. Pokemon that have the bulk to take a Waterfall and hit back for super effective damage also scare Mega Gyarados, as well as things that can sponge its attacks without necessarily having super effective attacks to retaliate with. Threats that come to mind include Scizor and its Mega, Azumarill, Ferrothorn, Breloom, Chesnaught, Latias, Conkeldurr, and Speed invested Rotom-W. To get outside of the box here, a lot of less common things that also scare Mega Gyarados include Poliwrath, Rotom-C, Trevenant, Scrafty, Shaymin, Mega Abomasnow, Amoonguss, Aromatisse, Escavalier, Shiftry, Yanmega, Tangrowth, and even Storm Drain Cradily.

Sableye and Whimsicott in particular are huge problems for Mega Gyarados with their Prankster-facilitated Will-O-Wisp and Stun Spore, respectively. Whimsicott also walls both Waterfall and Earthquake and can switch out of Bounce, as can many of the Flying-weak Pokemon in the above list.



After much thought and consideration, I think perhaps a Fire/Fairy typing might be ideal for the CAP Pokemon here. It is weak to Ground, a weakness which Gyarados can cover in its original form and then destroy STAB users of Ground-type attacks in either form. A Fire/Fairy typing resists the Grass-, Fighting-, Fairy-, and Bug-type attacks that Mega Gyarados is weak to. This typing also guarantees that it has STAB types that threaten both Sableye and Whimsicott, and it also inherently has an immunity to burn status.

I didn't have time to read all of the posts so I apologize if any of my ideas have already been said.

 

[Deck Knight]

XZard can't KO with Dragon Claw after Dragon Dance.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 265-313 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
whereas
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 374-442 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, this means we have to have no Priority stacked against us, but that's pretty much going to stop us no matter what we try to set up on.

So the list looks like

Bisharp (Dark/Steel)
Chansey (Normal)
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets)
Crawduant (Water/Dark)
Excadrill (Ground/Steel)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Greninja (Water/Dark)
Heatran (Fire/Steel)
Keldeo (Water/Fighting)
Landorus Base/Therian (Flying/Ground)
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice)
Scizor Base (Bug/Steel)

Though Chansey is not really the ideal Pokemon to set up on thanks to Toxic/Wish stall, which severely cuts how much sweep we can accomplish.

The +1 Calc is a guaranteed OHKO with SR up. While it's nice to assume "doesn't KO from100%" = setup bait, that simply isn't the case, and the fact ZardX is still going to put us at easily revenged HP levels is itself a good indicator it isn't setup bait.

Now, if CAP were to paralyze it first the facts on the ground change and it becomes acceptable bait. As it stands though, Gyarados needs to come in on a ZardX that has not already used Dragon Dance, and a Mega Evolved Gyarados can't switch in after a sacrifice at all.

 

[NumberCruncher]

The +1 Calc is a guaranteed OHKO with SR up. While it's nice to assume "doesn't KO from100%" = setup bait, that simply isn't the case, and the fact ZardX is still going to put us at easily revenged HP levels is itself a good indicator it isn't setup bait.

If that's the case, that invalidates our entire list barring Bisharp and Crawdaunt. Again, anything faster after Dragon Dance or with Priority will take down Gyrados no matter what we try setting it up on.

 

[DDRMaster]

Unless I'm missing something, those calcs don't take into account the fact that Mega Gyara will probably be coming in as regular Gyara and Intimidate the Pokemon. This means that it wouldn't be OHKO'd by Charizard X after SR and a DD. Also, Defiant Bisharp isn't as easy to set up on if we factor in Intimidate:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 126-148 (37.9 - 44.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 126-148 (37.9 - 44.5%)

This means that Mega Gyara will be KO'd by the combination of Iron Head and Sucker Punch after regular Gyara come in on SR. Luckily, Bisharp probably won't be staying in since it still gets OHKO'd by Earthquake.

 

[FireArrow]

Unless I'm missing something, those calcs don't take into account the fact that Mega Gyara will probably be coming in as regular Gyara and Intimidate the Pokemon. This means that it wouldn't be OHKO'd by Charizard X after SR and a DD. Also, Defiant Bisharp isn't as easy to set up on if we factor in Intimidate:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 126-148 (37.9 - 44.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 126-148 (37.9 - 44.5%)

This means that Mega Gyara will be KO'd by the combination of Iron Head and Sucker Punch after regular Gyara come in on SR. Luckily, Bisharp probably won't be staying in since it still gets OHKO'd by Earthquake.

Is it not too farfetched to assume we won't always be switching in from base form every time? Now that I think about it, however, baiting pokemon with set-up moves could prove problematic if we don't have enough offensive presence (as in, we don't want to be set-up bait for anything.)

 

[Boss jr.]

Is it not too farfetched to assume we won't always be switching in from base form every time? Now that I think about it, however, baiting pokemon with set-up moves could prove problematic if we don't have enough offensive presence (as in, we don't want to be set-up bait for anything.)

I've never really imagined CAP 19 as a lead anyway so this actually seems a lot more likely. I've always pictured CAP 19 as more of a mid game kind of poke that helpped the Dragon Dancer of your choice set up by tanking things until it's bait came out, crippling it and taking a well deserved fall for the team providing the DD in the wings a free switch in. You opponent knowing that if they don't switch they're going to be screwed is given a choice; Attack with something and try to make a dent, switch knowing you're about to set up or do their best to try and screw you over in the meantime.

It all ends in the loss of a poke no matter what and with luck your DD'er will have 1 or 2 boosts to boot.

Or poerhaps I have misinterpreted what we were trying to accomplish here?!

 

[DetroitLolcat]

So the question is which Pokemon we want to lure in. Fire-types, Mega Charizard Y excluded, are all prime targets for Mega Gyarados to set up on. Heatran and Mega Charizard X can possibly annoy Mega Gyarados with Will-O-Wisp, but the former can be avoided by Substitute Gyarados and the latter is usually obvious to identify (it's usually painfully obvious when you're facing a WoWZard). There isn't a lot we can do during the Typing stage to protect us from Roar or Whirlwind, so I wouldn't worry about it much right now.

Baiting in Fire and Water-types is the way to go as long as we can weaken them to the point where a +1 Gyarados can KO them. For example:

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 223-263 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's worth baiting in Keldeo as long as Gyarados can take a hit (read: if Keldeo's using Secret Sword then Gyara better not have Mega Evolved) and CAP19 can do about 30% after Stealth Rock so Gyara can clean up. Mega Charizard X is worth luring in as long as we don't let it set up. We want to be threatened by it while threatening it back. The same principle applies to Talonflame (SD Talonflame is growing in popularity). For CAP19 to succeed, we want the following things to happen:

1. We lure in Pokemon that Gyarados can set up against.
2. We force those Pokemon to KO CAP19; if they try to set up they will be punished.
3. We don't let CAP19 be U-Turn or Volt Switch bait.
4. We're reasonably effective against Pokemon that don't fit the above criteria.

We need a typing that will lure in Fire and Water-types not named Mega Charizard Y or Rotom-W (although the latter can be killed but not set up on by Mega Gyarados) while not letting them set up on us. I have a few typings in mind (and in my previous post :P), but I'll save them for later.

 

[NumberCruncher]

We need a typing that will lure in Fire and Water-types not named Mega Charizard Y or Rotom-W (although the latter can be killed but not set up on by Mega Gyarados) while not letting them set up on us. I have a few typings in mind (and in my previous post :P), but I'll save them for later.

We can only set-up on specific Water types. Pokemon like Vaporeon and Quagsire can infinitely wall Gyarados no matter how much Dragon Dancing it does and burn it to death with Scald unless it's the Taunt variant. Likewise, Talonflame falls into the Rotom-W category, because:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 219-258 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I feel it's also prudent to note that many Ground types can't even threaten Gyarados after it's turned Mega. The only notable exceptions are Quagsire and Scarfed Lando variants not choiced into a Ground move. It's also pretty good at setting up on Dark types, so as long as we give Mandibuzz a reason not to come in against CAP, we're pretty fine.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

We can only set-up on specific Water types. Pokemon like Vaporeon and Quagsire can infinitely wall Gyarados no matter how much Dragon Dancing it does and burn it to death with Scald unless it's the Taunt variant. Likewise, Talonflame falls into the Rotom-W category, because:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 219-258 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I feel it's also prudent to note that many Ground types can't even threaten Gyarados after it's turned Mega. The only notable exceptions are Quagsire and Scarfed Lando variants not choiced into a Ground move. It's also pretty good at setting up on Dark types, so as long as we give Mandibuzz a reason not to come in against CAP, we're pretty fine.

Oh, I should clarify. One of the reasons why I liked Steel/Ground in my previous post is that it will usually force Talonflame into using Flare Blitz. I've mentioned on IRC many times that we need to have a greater resistance to Flying than Fire so Talonflame has to be locked into Flare Blitz, as it becomes great Gyarados setup bait.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Oh, I should clarify. One of the reasons why I liked Steel/Ground in my previous post is that it will usually force Talonflame into using Flare Blitz. I've mentioned on IRC many times that we need to have a greater resistance to Flying than Fire so Talonflame has to be locked into Flare Blitz, as it becomes great Gyarados setup bait.

We also need to look at the effect being weak to fire has on us, assuming we haven't Mega Evolved, Mega Charizard X can burn us with Will-O-Wisp and destroy our sweep, I don't think this can really justify 1 extra poke as setup bait

 

[Stratos]

to answer srk1214's question of what gyarados set: i think it's a decent idea not to hone in on any one set. All three of taunt, sub, and ice fang are just as used at +1 as at +0. If there were moves that Gyarados ran explicitly to assist its setup, we should be removing those sets because we should be able to to provide the ideal setup circumstance, but that's really not the case with the moves suggested.

as for the typing we pick, remember that we're not solely picking a typing such that it will be weak to what mega gyarados beats. The Pokemon also has to accomplish its own role on a team. as such, we should make sure to pay attention to what else the typing seems to permit, and not pick pretty bad typings because the pokemon has to be threatening in itself. i disagree with the sentiment that "we shouldn't be trying to beat what mega gyarados is weak to," because we should—we need to be part of the 5-mon group that can clear out mgyara's counters. but we shouldn't be trying to switch in to take hits aimed at mega gyarados.

 

[Bughouse]

OK I think we've had a few more good posts in the past 2 days and I'm glad I waited even though this thread has now started to drag on. We won't focus on any particular set of MGyara, but I still think it's a good idea to keep each set in mind for how we execute the concept, so I'm including a range.

I'm reopening this thread to actual typing submissions (ones made early on will still be considered but should be reposted imo given the discussion we've had since then.)

We can patch up many of these things in later stages, but given how central typing is, I'm going to put a bunch of good things here. Hit as many or as few as you think are necessary. Here are some goals your typing submissions could have, in no particular order:

• Either be weaker to Fire than it is to Flying (locking CB Talonflame into Flare Blitz is awesome!) or just resist both Fire and Flying to dissaude all Talonflame in general
• Discourage Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Assault Vest Azumarill's ability to counter the CAP (since Gyara can't set up on them, even if it threatens damage - EQ on Rotom-W, Ice Fang on MVenu, etc)
• Resist U-turn and/or have a type that can hit many U-turn users for Super Effective damage
• Draw out Skarmory, who Taunt MGyara can set up on
• Draw out Quagsire and/or Ferrothorn, who Sub MGyara can set up on
• Draw out Gliscor, who either Sub or Taunt MGyara can set up on (unless facing a really fast Taunt Gliscor, I guess) and all Gyarados threaten offensively anyway
• Be revengeable by CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet, or any Scarf EQ, both of which Gyara can set up on

Finally, and this goes without saying, the type needs to be a generally good type. This mon will never get used if it just isn't good. For example, Normal/Poison accomplishes most of the things on this list. It's also just an awful typing offensively and not that great defensively either.



I'm recommending that this thread be closed in 24 hours so get your typings in now! I suspect many of you have been eager to do that for a while, given how the thread started. I look forward to making a slate tomorrow around midnight.

 

[Deck Knight]

Rewriting Electric / Poison:

Weaknesses: Ground (4x), Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Grass, Poison, Steel
Immunities: None [Paralysis, Poison]
Super-Effective Coverage: Fairy, Flying, Grass, Water
Pokemon Resists Offense: Ground types, Magnezone, Ferrothorn, Tyrantrum, Dragalgae

Electric / Poison has the most benefits to offer as a counterpart to Mega Gyarados.

What it Lures:
Ground types are the primary lure, and as most Ground-types are physical and their Rock coverage moves are inaccurate, Mega Gyara can often switch in with impunity, weaken with Intimidate, and set up against foes with no effective means of crippling it. Ferrothorn can be stopped by Taunt and is ineffective against Gyarados before it Mega-Evolves, while the rest of the specific lures are all weak to Earthquake. Psychic types are much rarer than Ground types, and Poison typing wards off the most threatening Psychic to the core, Mega Gardevoir. CAP can even Thunder Wave with impunity because Synchronize will not paralyze it if it catches Gardevoir on the switch. Electric/Poison has a less favorable relationship with Mega Venusaur, but it does resist its STABs, hits neutrally with Poison moves, and could potentially overcome it with boosting moves or coverage (Or Mega Venu starts running EQ, which it really can't fit.

What it Doesn't Lure:
Noticeably this type keeps Water types far away, and forces Talonflame to use Flare Blitz to damage CAP. It also keeps Charizard (X or Y variants) from switching in because of Fire/Flying's initial Electric weakness. This is the best possible scenario for Mega Gyarados because of mutual walling. It is true that Gyarados walls Water types. It's also true that they wall Waterfall and thus require Gyarados to attack with unSTABbed, unboosted Earthquake. This gives lured-in Water types several opportunities to fish for Scald burns, so it is best when Gyarados faces them they are already weakened or, like Quagsire, take neutral damage from Waterfall.

Other qualities:
Resistance to Volturn: While it isn't immune to Electric and thus can't stop a Volt Switch user from selecting another Pokemon, it will take minimal damage from these two attacks, making it an acceptable pivot.
Immunity to Paralysis and Poison: The only common status that can afflict CAP with this typing is Burn, which allows CAP to be threatening in its own right and force the scenarios we desire. CAP itself could be a boosting threat, and with paralysis off the table it will further reduce the viability of moves like Thunder Wave that hamper Mega Gyarados' sweep.
Workable Interaction with Gyarados: The most critical thing to note here is that by choosing an Electric type we are not automatically creating a threat to Mega Gyarados. There are ways to build this CAP which cause Gyarados to score a OHKO with Earthquake while also having enough defense to ward off FlySPAM and Fairy attacks, thanks to the 4x weakness. In this way CAP fits in with our desired dynamic while also providing that crucial supporting role to Gyarados.

Additionally, because CAP covers weaknesses of Mega Gyarados and doubles up on resistances of Gyarados, maneuvering Gyarados in is made less difficult. After Mega Gyarados evolves CAP can still switch in and threaten the attacking Pokemon, and beforehand both Pokemon have more leeway with Fighting-type and Bug-type attackers.

Electric / Poison is a niche typing offensively but a fantastic defensive typing, both on the chart and in its intangibles. It's niche coverage is also specifically helpful in luring in Pokemon Gyarados can set up on and warding off Pokemon it can't.

 

[escarlata]

Rewriting Ghost/Electric:
Weaknesses: Ground (2x), Dark (2x), Ghost (2x)
Resistances: Flying (2x), Bug (2x), Flying (2x), Steel (2x), Electric (2x)
Immunities: Fighting, Normal

Trait of typing: Spinblocker weak to Ground

Overall, to summarise the list (of what MGyara sets up on), we have pursuit trappers, scarfed grounds, hazard removers

Factoring in all these, what immediately stands out is a spinblocker, especially one that is Ground weak, which leaves us with Ghost/Electric, Ghost/Steel, Ghost/Fire, Ghost/Rock. Ghost/Steel gives us a weakness to Fire because burns, Ghost/Fire gives us a weakness to Rock, Terrakion in particular, and Ghost/Rock shares a Grass weakness. The problem with sharing weaknesses is that whatever kills CAP19 may not become set up bait for MGyara, which defeats the point of it dying. Hence Ghost/Electric stands out as the better typing of the 4.

What it lures:
Being weak to only 3 types, and all of which Gyarados sets up on at ease. Users of Ground types usually consists of either Choiced users, or Gliscor/Hippowdon, which Taunt/Sub Gyarados can set up on. Dark types attackers usually include Choiced Pursuit trappers, Sucker Punch users, or Knock Off users, all of which MGyara has no problems setting up on, especially considering CAP19 is likely to have Will-o-wisp to cripple said Dark types by virtue of its Ghost typing. The only relevant Ghost type attacker is Gengar, which threatens MGyara with the possibility of a Will-o-wisp of its own, but considering the possibility of another secondary partner, it isn't too bad.

What it keeps away:
Electric obviously keeps Water types away, so they cannot simply fish for Scald burns against MGyara, which makes the sacrifice in vain. Being a Ghost type, it is not unusual for it to have Will-o-wisp, which discourages stuff like SD Chomp from setting up on CAP19, and then knocking it out. Will-o-wisp is also threatening to MVenu and AV Azumarill, which is good to have. Said typing gives an immunity to Mach Punch, so Breloom has not business coming in, and a resistance to Brave Bird, which means Talonflame cannot lock itself into Brave Bird to weaken Gyarados after killing CAP19. If CAP19 is made bulky enough to survive Gengar, it can even keep Gengar away with its Ghost STAB. And of course, being resistant to all of Thundurus's coverage is handy.

Other Qualities:
Resistance to Volt-turn: Resistance to Volt-turn is one thing, but is also valuable is how Will-o-wisp makes U-turn hurt much less for MGyara
Spinblocks: There are 2 viable spinners this gen (Sand Rush/Scarf Exca, LO/Bulky Starmie). Being a spinblocker that loses to both premier spinners seems a bit ironic, but said spinners happen to be set-up bait for MGyara. Bulky Starmie may carry Scald, but it shouldn't be enough to KO CAP19, which KOs in return. Which essentially make it hard for the opponent to decide if they want to spin, effectively putting them in a situation where "screwed if you don't KO CAP19), screwed more if you do". This also gives more opportunity for MGyara to set up if the opponent needs to spin desperately. CAP19 also has workable type synergy with Bisharp, which is good to have.
Other sweepers which CAP19 help set up: Dragonite has no problem setting up on Dark, Ghost and Ground type attackers, and MTtar loves coming in on Dark and Ghost types.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Let's look at this problem step by step.

Question 1: What does CAP 19 want to resist in order to aid Gyrados?
The obvious answers are Flying, Fighting, Fairy and Grass, since Talonflame, Clefable, Venusaur, and Mach Punchers can still threaten our sweep after the first Dragon Dance use, hindering our ability to gain advantage. That being said, no singular type resists all three, so we need a combination to achieve this. Poison does come the closest by resisting 3 of these types though, so we should start with the assumption Poison typing is favorable

Currently: Poison/???

Question 2: What should CAP 19 leave Gyarados to take care of?
If we look at the list of Pokemon we tend to agree Gyarados can set up on, the general trend is that most of the mons it can do work against are Ground, Dark, or Steel. This means that CAP 19 can't have a typing advantage on any of these mons. This makes Fire, Water, Grass, Ice, Fighting, Ground, Bug, and Fairy as additional typing. In addition, most of the Dark monsters we want to set up on are Water, so Electric typing should be discouraged.
This leaves us: Normal, Flying, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, and Steel. Normal, Dragon, and Dark only weaken our resistance to the four types listed above without adding any extra resistance, so these are bad options.

Currently: Poison/Flying, Poison/Psychic, Poison/Rock, Poison/Ghost, and Poison/Steel

Question 3: What should CAP 19 absolutely kill in order for Gyrados to complete the sweep?
CAP 19 first and foremost has to shut down Thundurus in its tracks. This makes Flying a poor type for CAP to have. Mega Medicham is way to fast for Gyarados, and has Fake Out and Thunder Punch to take it down in any form, so CAP shouldn't die to its Psycho Cut. This makes Poison/Psychic and Poison/Steel very appealing typing. We also don't want to get stalled out by Mega-Venusuar, so Poison/Psychic seems to be the big winner

tl;dr My nomination is Poison/Psychic
4x Resistances: Fighting
2x Resistances: Grass, Poison, Fairy
2x Weaknesses: Ground, Ghost, Dark
2x STAB Coverage: Grass, Fighting, Poison, Fairy
Types that resist STAB: Steel

To expand on this subject, Poison/Psychic is very spefically bad against Pokemon Gyarados can set up on (Ground, Dark, and Steel types), while having the minimum Pokemon with STAB efficiency on both (Trevenant being the only example in OU, but it can't take Ice Fang)

 

[FMD]

The best combination I can see working purely based on type alone would be Poison/Fairy. It's weak to Ground, Psychic and Steel while resisting Grass, Fighting, Bug and Fairy. This would cause it to generally lure in Pokemon that Gyarados resists, such as Excadrill, while simultaneously deterring the use of Pokemon that would usually threaten Gyarados. The only common threat I can see between this typing and those of Gyarados would be Mega Gardevoir, able to outspeed an unboosted Gyarados and hit for STAB SE damage on each.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

As Goddess Briyella said, and as I tried to say (too early, unfortunately), the best type for this CAP is Fire/Fairy.

The Fire typing means that Ground, Rock, and Water types (more likely Ground or Water) will be drawn in to KO this Pokemon, but will not want to, as Gyarados could then set up easily on them. Fairy draws in Poison types, which affect Gyarados neutrally, but Earthquake and Dragon Dance mean Poison types won’t be too viable. (Mega) Gyarados will help to prevent these opponents from facing this CAP Pokemon, allowing it to survive longer. If these Pokemon do attempt to fight this CAP Pokemon and defeat it, Mega Gyarados can get a free turn and wreak havoc.

This Pokemon is still moderately hard to KO, as can be seen below:

Defensive Matchups:

2x- Ground, Rock, Water, Poison

1x- Steel, Normal, Flying, Ghost, Electric, Psychic

½ x- Dark, Fighting, Fairy, Fire, Grass, Ice

¼ x- Bug

0x- Dragon

Offensive STAB Matchups:

2x- Steel, Bug, Grass, Ice, Dragon, Dark, Fighting

1x-Normal, Poison, Flying, Electric, Rock, Ground, Psychic, Ghost, Fairy, Water

1/2 x- Fire

Its STAB Fairy and Fire moves will enable it to take out threats to Mega Gyarados like Fairy types, as it resists them, like Mega Mawile and possibly Mega Gardevoir, Fighting types, such as Breloom, Conkledurr, Keldeo, and Medicham, Bug types, like Scizor, and Grass types, like Venusaur and Ferrothorn. It can also take out physical walls that might give (Mega) Gyarados a hard time (Skarmory).

This typing therefore fulfills the goal of dissuading the opponent from defeating this CAP, as those that can do it easily give Mega Gyarados a free turn, along with other Dragon Dance users (mostly when a Water type attempts to defeat it or a Poison Pokemon is used). Also, this typing helps it protect Mega Gyarados by taking out counters to it, and it can also help it to KO threats to other Dragon Dancers (like Dragonite) by taking out Ice types and Dragon types as well. It can also protect other Dragon Dancers by taking out Ice types (Mamoswine) and Dragon types (other possible Dragon Dancers like Garchomp or Dragonite).

List of srk1214's proposed good qualities that apply:

• Draw out Gliscor, who either Sub or Taunt MGyara can set up on (unless facing a really fast Taunt Gliscor, I guess) and all Gyarados threaten offensively anyway
• Be revengeable by CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet, or any Scarf EQ, both of which Gyara can set up
• Discourage Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Assault Vest Azumarill's ability to counter the CAP (since Gyara can't set up on them, even if it threatens damage - EQ on Rotom-W, Ice Fang on MVenu, etc)
• Resist U-turn and/or have a type that can hit many U-turn users for Super Effective damage

(Azumarill cannot safely counter the CAP or (Mega) Gyarados if the CAP can burn it easily)

 

[Burt Racecar]

I'm going to update and expand upon my earlier suggestion of Steel/Ice.

Weaknesses: Fire(x4), Fighting (x4), Ground
Resistances: Ice (x4), Normal, Grass, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Fairy
Immunities: Poison

This typing lures in Fire, Fighting and potentially Ground types. The fire and ground weakness is specifically exploitable by Mega-Gyarados, however the shared Fighting weakness would have to be solved elsewhere. Drawing in these types are also ideal for a number of other pokemon to set up on, specifically relevant to Dragon types, since an ice/steel type should keep opposing dragons, fairies and ice types away from the field. Keldeo, Azumarill, Landorus and Thundurus are other pokemon that could benefit from the synergy and use a free turn to set up with.

With the resistance to flying type moves, it forces CB Talonflame to use Flare Blitz.
It keeps away plenty of other set-up sweepers, in particular dragon types and calm mind fairies.
It resists u-turn, which was considered of relative importance by a number of people.
It should discourage most grass types from coming in, bar Breloom.
In theory, it could potentially have the tools to KO both unaware users with its STABs.
It can deal with flying walls Mandibuzz specifically, and may be able to do the same for Skarmory (even though Taunt Gyarados can set up on it).

While the ice/steel typing has a number of drawbacks, it appears, on paper, to be a fairly decent typing, with a number of key resistances and offensive STABs that can take on the common dragon, fairy and ground type pokemon, along with the occasional flying, rock and grass pokemon.

I know that the shared fighting weakness is less than ideal when it comes to Mega-Gyarados, but to that, I refer to several points other people have made already in the thread:

This is not Perfect Mate, and our goal is not to simply partner with another Pokemon.

Second, I did want to reiterate what several users have said in this thread or on IRC. This is NOT a Perfect Mate

we need to be part of the 5-mon group that can clear out mgyara's counters.

Since this concept is not about creating a perfect partner to Mega-Gyarados, the shared fighting weakness can at least be remedied by one of the other four team members, if not at a later stage in the CAP process.

The biggest positive point behind the Steel/Ice typing is that it wards off a number of set-up sweepers with useful STABs and resistances, and in doing so can provide a nice synergy with a plethora of sweepers other than Mega-Gyarados.

Just throwing this typing out there as an alternative.


Finally, I'd like to show support for Deck Knight's Electric/Poison typing; it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Although it may or may not have some difficulty with water/ground type pokemon, particularly Quagsire.
Also Dragonblaze052's Poison/Fairy typing sounds interesting - I need to give that some more thought.

 

[Mektar]

While his line of reasoning kinda bugs me somehow, I do agree with NumberCruncher in that Poison/Psychic seems to be our best bet here. No single set of types does exactly what we want (a fire weakness would be nice), but I think this one comes closest.

 

[Boss jr.]

Fire/Electric

Resistances: 2x Fire, Electric, Grass, Ice, Flying, Bug, Fairy, 4x Steel
Immunities: None (Paralyze, Burn)
Weaknesses: 2x Water, Rock, 4x Ground

What it hits for Super Effective: Bug, Steel, Grass, Ice, Flying, Water

What this Typing offers: It's immunities to two threatening statuses mean it's can't be easily crippled. While it's not baiting Fire types it is still baiting Ground types which it has a nasty 4x weakness to. Water types switching in is kind of iffy because while it is weak to water moves, it's also part electric giving it something to STAB back with. Also since we discussed what's worse, being burned or being paralyzed I figured, why not go for both? Volt Turn and U-Turn aren't issues for this set thanks to resistances.

Mamoswine, Gliscor, Lando, Chansey, Charizard X (DD variants), Crawduant, Excadrill, Garchomp, Greninja and Keldeo should all be considering switching in on CAP 19 here despite some of them being hit back for SE. It discourages Talonflame from entering the battle at all thanks to hitting flying for SE and resistance to both it's types. Potential Para threatens DD Charizard, Crawdaunt, Greninja and Keldeo. Fire punches holes in Mamoswine, and Exadrill while possible burn threaten Gliscor and Lando. That makes everything listed perfect set up bait once they've killed CAP 19. Thundrus also has nothing for CAP 19 here but CAP 19 can burn back if they do go up against each other. Quagsire and Gliscor should have a super easy time against this also since this combination offers nothing to deal with either. It's weak to one if not both types and can't hit for SE on either of them even losing an attack thanks to Ground Immunity. Still, there's burn for that though. ;)

It goes on to threaten Farrothorn, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Mega Charizard Y, opposing Garaydos (both forms), Mega-Mewile, Mega-Pinsir, Scolipede, Talonflame, Venusaur (both forms), Scizor and (maybe!) Breloom by hitting all of them for SE.

It's potential status moves could mess up: Conkeldurr, Garaydos (both forms), Dragonite, Garchomp, Gliscor, Heatran, Lando, Terrakion and T-Tar (both forms).

Drawbacks: A weakness to Rock means we won't be switching a whole heck of a lot. Stealth Rock is going to punish for that. Not like that's a Huuuuuge issue with a very respectable 8 resistances and the potential for paralyzing. Leftovers could help heal off a lot of that so long as we're switching into hits we know it can take. Let's just hope we can give it some flinch hax or recovery to help out huh? ;)

• Either be weaker to Fire than it is to Flying (locking CB Talonflame into Flare Blitz is awesome!) or just resist both Fire and Flying to dissaude all Talonflame in general CHECK
  
• Discourage Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Assault Vest Azumarill's ability to counter the CAP (since Gyara can't set up on them, even if it threatens damage - EQ on Rotom-W, Ice Fang on MVenu, etc) CHECK
  
• Resist U-turn and/or have a type that can hit many U-turn users for Super Effective damage CHECK
  
• Draw out Skarmory, who Taunt MGyara can set up on: Skarmory will be afraid to come out here since this type combo can hit it for SE on either side. The only benefit of switching out on CAP 19 here would be to Roar/WW it off the field.
  
• Draw out Quagsire and/or Ferrothorn, who Sub MGyara can set up on CHECK
  
• Draw out Gliscor, who either Sub or Taunt MGyara can set up on (unless facing a really fast Taunt Gliscor, I guess) and all Gyarados threaten offensively anyway CHECK
  
• Be revengeable by CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet, or any Scarf EQ, both of which Gyara can set up on CHECK

Bisharp (Dark/Steel) Faints
Chansey (Normal) ???
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets) Resists
Crawduant (Water/Dark) Baits
Excadrill (Ground/Steel) Baits
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground) Baits
Gliscor (Ground/Flying) Baits
Greninja (Water/Dark) Baits
Heatran (Fire/Steel) Resists
Keldeo (Water/Fighting) Baits
Landorus Base/Therian (Flying/Ground) Baits
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice) Baits
Scizor Base (Bug/Steel) Faints

Edit: I'm still trying to figure out everything that this threatens. It's a very counter intuitive type combination. It's types are strangely complementary hitting either of their weaknesses for SE. This is a very ironic scenario as it causes the opponent to question how they would otherwise counter it.

Usually Grass types can counter Electric just fine thanks to a resistance and good recoveries. But the Fire typing makes that less viable. Water users that would usually threaten have to think twice now cause they might very well switch in on a STAB Electric. And because it's resistances are all common elemental types we can make it bulky if we want to and gear it towards a really mean tank. Not to mention we could still load CAP 19 up with an Air Balloon and ditch the Ground weakness giving it a great way to switch in on dual ground types that it can still hit for SE like Excadrill and Mamoswine. Also, these two types are both stereotypically loaded up with plenty of status inflicting moves. Lastly it also gives it good reasons to play in both Sun and Rain.

 

[The Steam Punk]

Steel/Poison

Weaknesses: Ground (x4), Fire
Resistances: Normal, Grass (x4), Ice, Flying, Bug (x4), Rock, Dragon, Steel, Fairy (x4)
Immunities: Poison

What it lures: This typing's weaknesses, Ground and Fire. Both of these are easily tanked by Gyarados, who when unevolved can freely switch in on Ground moves anyway. Heatran would be quickly lured by this CAP, as well as Excadrill, Charizard, Talonflame and/or Tyranitar.

What it resists: Grass, Bug, and Fairy moves, which hit Mega Gyarados for SE damage while being doubly resisted by CAP19. It also has a handful of resistances to other common types of moves. Due to its poison immunity, it can't be Toxic-stalled, driving out Blissey and Ferrothorn, who otherwise can't dent CAP19. Venusaur, Pinsir and Togekiss's STABs are all resisted.

Conclusion: This robust typing covers most of Mega Gyarados's weaknesses and can deal with many common threats in OU, while luring in other threats whom Gyarados can deal with.

 

[Empress]

Ok guys, my typing suggestion will remain Ice/Electric, as I feel it fits much of of the below criteria.

• Either be weaker to Fire than it is to Flying (locking CB Talonflame into Flare Blitz is awesome!) or just resist both Fire and Flying to dissaude all Talonflame in general: Weak to Fire, resistant to Flying.
• Discourage Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Assault Vest Azumarill's ability to counter the CAP (since Gyara can't set up on them, even if it threatens damage - EQ on Rotom-W, Ice Fang on MVenu, etc): We are left with a neutral matchup with Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W, and we beat Azumarill, barring the somewhat uncommon Superpower.
• Resist U-turn and/or have a type that can hit many U-turn users for Super Effective damage: The only really common U-Turners are Talonflame, Landorus-T, Scizor, and Greninja. Electric hits Talonflame and Greninja SE, and Ice hits Landorus-T SE, while we are neutral to Scizor all around. Greninja will likely stay Water-type as none of its common moves (lol HP Fire) can hit us SE.
• Draw out Skarmory, who Taunt MGyara can set up on: Though we threaten Skarmory rather than drawing it in, it provides a good matchup if Gyarados indeed lacks Taunt.
• Draw out Quagsire and/or Ferrothorn, who Sub MGyara can set up on: If Quagsire carries a Ground move, it can certainly provide it with an incentive to switch into us. Ferrothorn would have a neutral match-up with us in this case.
• Draw out Gliscor, who either Sub or Taunt MGyara can set up on (unless facing a really fast Taunt Gliscor, I guess) and all Gyarados threaten offensively anyway: Being weak to Ground, Gliscor has the incentive to switch into us and then threaten with EQ. Though being Ice-type may turn it off, the Electric-type seems to be enough of an incentive to want to stay in and EQ us.
• Be revengeable by CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet, or any Scarf EQ, both of which Gyara can set up on: Oh, we are certainly revenge able by a Scarf EQ, and Azumarill's Aqua Jet hits us neutrally.
• Must be a generally good type: Yes, I acknowledge that being Ice-type is never, ever a good thing… on defense. Offensively, it is strong, as it hits many common and threatening Pokes super-effectively, such as Landorus. The Electric type makes us not be Scizor bait, and provides a sweet immunity to the paralysis that Gyarados hates. It also makes us resist Electric, which is our main intent here. Both types are solid on offense, and one type is excellent on defense. 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

 

[ginganinja]

Just a few quick points from the resident OU moderator.

Firstly, I'd prefer any submitted typing to actually have decent offensive STABs. The last thing we want, is for this CAP to be set up fodder, because then X mon just sets up on this CAP, and doesn't kill it until its achieved a respectable number of boosts, after of which, Gyarados cannot switch in. For example, Mono Steel is an unsuitable typing for lacking in STAB coverage, and for being set up bait for a stupid number of things.

Secondly, don't tunnel on Talonflame too hard. One of the more recently popular sets to come out of the tourney scene are SD Sharp Beak Talonflame, and a more defensive WoW variant. Both of these put more of a strain on Gyarados attempting to switch in since these sets have the freedom to switch moves, and thus nail both the CAP and the Gyarados switch in. Likewise, I wouldn't tunnel too hard on being hard walled by Gliscor, the last thing Gyarados wants to switch into is a fast Sub Toxic Gliscor with a Sub up when it switches in, because that shit never ends well.

Thirdly, make sure your typing can give this CAP a niche that isn't already occupied by an existing OU pokemon. For instance, I wouldn't recommend a Ground / Flying Typing (its an example, iirc no-one promoted this), mostly because Landorus-T already exists as the premier user of this typing, both offensively and defensively.

Lastly, when looking at what your typing and what it walls defensively, match the typing to an existing OU mon. For instance, we all know that a Grass / Steel typing is neutral to Ground and resists Dragon, but we wouldn't call it a Garchomp wall, because Fire Blast is a near staple on it. Just...remember the common coverage moves of pokemon in OU, there is little point in claiming you wall X typing, when the premier user of that typing already packs a coverage move which just happens to hit Gyarados super effectively.

Have a nice day.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Time for me to actually delve into my explanation for Steel/Psychic.

Initially, Steel caught my eye as a primary typing because it fulfills many of the ideal criteria identified thus far in this thread by itself. Namely:

• It resists Flying and is weak to Fire. As a result, Talonflame will be baited into using Flare Blitz over Brave Bird, thus giving all three Dragon Dancers a chance to come in and set up. Other Fire-types that the DD users can threaten (e.g. Heatran) are also baited.
• It is immune to Poison. This allows CAP 19 to absorb the Toxic moves that our sweepers loathe.
• It resists Fairy and Grass. As such, the likes of Clefable, Mega Venusaur and AV Azumarill (partially) cannot hit CAP 19 for neutral damage with their STAB moves. As for Azumarill, Steel's neutrality to Water means that Aqua Jet should be quite endurable.
• It is weak to Ground. This fact gives an incentive for Ground-types like Gliscor, Landorus-T, or Hippowdon to switch in, which Gyarados and Dragonite can then take advantage of to set up.

However, there is one major issue with Steel typing that prevents it from being ideal on its own. Namely, a weakness to Fighting attacks means that Breloom and Conkeldurr can threaten CAP 19, which is not desirable. As such, a secondary typing to negate that weakness is called for. That narrows it down to Ghost, Bug, Psychic, or Poison.

• Steel/Poison would give a nice 4x resistance to Bug. However, the 4x weakness to Ground is overkill, and the typing is both offensively redundant and doesn't hit any noteworthy targets other than Clefable and Azumarill. As such, I rejected this.
• Steel/Ghost is also 4x resistant to Bug and is immune to Fighting. Furthermore, it lures in Dark-types like Bisharp and Mandibuzz that Mega Gyarados in particular enjoys setting up on. However, Ghost attacks do little to threaten most of the Pokemon that CAP 19 needs to threaten.
• Steel/Bug has only a single weakness to Fire. However, I decided against this typing for two main reasons. First, while it is 4x weak to Fire, this typing is also neutral to Flying, which would put unneeded constraints on defensive stats later on to adequately take a Brave Bird from Talonflame. More importantly, Bug typing would scare away some of the Dark-types and Psychic-types that Mega Gyarados would want to come in on without doing much against Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, or AV Azumarill.

That leaves my suggested typing, Steel/Psychic. While it isn't perfect--it doesn't resist VoltTurn--it does have other advantages. In addition to maintaining the aforementioned advantages of Steel typing, Steel/Psychic can lure in Dark-types like Bisharp and Crawdaunt that Mega Gyarados can set up on all day long. It also is neutral to Keldeo's STAB moves, which means that Keldeo could safely revenge kill CAP 19 to allow a free switch for the chosen sweeper.

Offensively, Steel/Psychic can hit Fairies, Mega Venusaur, and Fighting-types super effectively, meaning that CAP 19 can remove many potential hurdles to the DD sweeper without its STABs being too broadly useful.

Abridged Version: I'm nominating Steel/Psychic as the typing for CAP 19.