Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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chimp

Go Bananas
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Something being viable doesn't really mean it's the best or even a "good" strategy. Now, im not saying stall is a bad play style, the definition of "viable," according to good ol' Dictionary.com, is "able to find success." Stall may not be the greatest means to find such success, but it certainly works.

The new meta doesn't seem to have a very dominant type. Even the mighty fighting types have fairies, the rise of poisons, and fletchling to keep them in check. It seems the entire type spectrum is represented, both offensively and defensively, in this meta. Ground types have Drilbur and Hippo, Flying types have Fletchling and Vullaby, even Psychic types have Slowpoke to give it defensive merits. I think this makes it a little bit easier to make cores, since there is no "Can't use X cause Y is too common and powerful!" See: B/W sand teams.

The ban of missy also makes a lot of defensive pokemon's niches a lot more valuble. Koffing is the only poison type with WoW, Frillish is the only ghost type with reliable recovery, Porygon can afford to forgo shadow ball in favor of a better coverage move. I think I expect the meta to push towards being aggressively defensive.
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
I've done a lot of thinking and a lot of testing with a few Pokemon today, and I have a few ideas to talk about. :)




Bunnelby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 228 Atk / 52 Def / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Wild Charge

Adamant Choice Scarf Bunnelby will run this metagame. It 2HKOs practically the whole tier without hazards and has U-turn to pivot out of a fleeing foe or something it can't knock out in one hit, which protects Bunnelby from damage and also allows it to bring in a teammate more suitable for the situation. Wild Charge is a OHKO on Archen, Gastly, and Frillish, making this set very hard to switch into. Of course, Bunnelby still has to worry about priority moves, namely Croagunk's Vacuum Wave and Timburr's Mach Punch, but these are pretty easy to see coming and you can respond accordingly by switching to something that turns the tables. A lot of people think Zigzagoon will be the new Normal-type king of Little Cup, but I have to disagree. Bunnelby requires no support or setup to get going and it can wreak havoc by either brute force or by aggressive momentum grabbing with U-turn. It rips holes in stall and runs through offense all the same, and with hazard support, the list of things it can OHKO skyrockets.




Stunky @ Eviolite
Ability: Stench
Level: 5
EVs: 68 Def / 188 SpD / 244 Spe
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Taunt
- Sucker Punch
- Defog

Specially defensive Stunky is my new favorite special wall. It messes with all variants of Gastly and Abra and can switch in on them easily, trap them, and kill them. I have yet to see a Gastly run Will-O-Wisp, but I also run Spritzee alongside Stunky, so it wouldn't be a big deal (Stunky can still easily beat both of those while burned anyway and it can definitely still break their Substitutes). It sucks that it doesn't get Knock Off and that Play Rough is illegal with Sucker Punch and Defog, but it can fulfill its purpose without them. Taunt prevents Gastly from attempting to get past Stunky by Disabling Pursuit and playing around Sucker Punch with Substitute (a lot of people tried that today and failed), but Gastly can't really hurt it anyway. I didn't run any offensive investment because Stunky doesn't need any to switch in and beat Abra or Gastly, the main Pokemon I carry Stunky for. I use Stench to have a flinch chance with Pursuit, and it also works with Sucker Punch, which is hilarious. It's optional to run a Jolly nature to hit 18 Speed and tie with Gastly and also be able to outspeed and Taunt opposing Trubbish, which is amazing, but for now, I prefer the special bulk. I highly recommend using Eviolite and Wish/Aromatherapy support for Stunky instead of Berry Juice, and Stunky can change roles and be used as a good Knock Off shield throughout the game if you need it for that.




Shroomish @ Eviolite
Ability: Effect Spore
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Nope, not Toxic Orb with Poison Heal. Eviolite Shroomish is something I've been trying today as a Drilbur counter and it actually works very well. It has higher physical bulk than Foongus and also resists Earthquake, whereas Foongus does not. It misses out on Regenerator, but it forces enough switches to get off Leech Seed and Synthesis to sustain itself, not to mention Giga Drain's recovery. This also messes with Frillish and Chinchou, like Foongus does. Conveniently, Hidden Power Fire does not lower the IVs of any of the stats that have investment for this set. I chose not to run Spore because of Shroomish's Effect Spore ability, which has a 30% chance to either poison, paralyze, or put to sleep any Pokemon that makes contact, which is an awesome trait for a physical wall if you ask me; with the hax chance of Scald getting a burn or Focus Blast missing, you afflict foes with status without using up turns and just by having them touch you while you recover health. Today, someone used Fletchling's itemless Acrobatics on this Shroomish and it survived it rather healthily while also putting Fletchling to sleep in the process. Physical attackers that make contact are swarming throughout Little Cup and this set punishes them. Foongus has Effect Spore as well and also important resistances to Fairy and Fighting, but I wanted a Ground resist with more bulk, so this is what I came up with and I let teammates cover the other things. It might seem weird being Shroomish and not Foongus, having Effect Spore and not Poison Heal, and not running Spore, but it's a really awesome set that frustrates the opponent if used carefully.



This is the final version of the team I made today, after lots of edits:

Bunnelby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 228 Atk / 52 Def / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Wild Charge

Stunky @ Eviolite
Ability: Stench
Level: 5
EVs: 68 Def / 188 SpD / 244 Spe
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Taunt
- Sucker Punch
- Defog

Shroomish @ Eviolite
Ability: Effect Spore
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy

Trubbish @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Atk / 100 Def / 20 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Recycle
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

Omanyte @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power


The only thing this team has major problems with is Nasty Plot Croagunk, and so a few times today I replaced Spritzee's Protect with Psychic specifically for that. This team has to be careful when the opponent has a Zigzagoon; do your best to never give it an opening to come in for free. If you can set up Omanyte before it hits the field, you can get beat it. Everything on the team has something to damage it with as it sets up, and Stunky can Taunt it to prevent Belly Drum from being used altogether. Shroomish can drag it down with Leech Seed and Effect Spore, and Spritzee can Protect on it after it's seeded, if necessary. If you can't do any of these things, keep Spritzee at full health, and just be sure to hit Zigzagoon with an attack on the first turn it's out; full health Spritzee is guaranteed to survive +6 Extreme Speed to be able to hit back and finish it off. I beat Zigzagoon that way multiple times today.

+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm still testing things, though. I am anxious to see what everyone else has been using since Misdreavus's ban. :)
 
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The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
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I honestly haven't encountered all that many Zigzagoon running around, but my current team can handle it without too many casualties. Not to say that Zigzagoon is overhyped or anything, but it isn't the world beater I thought it would be.

I planned my current team around Missy getting banned, and it's a semi-stall team (I think) which I've had success with (44-9) over the past few weeks, and last night also. I don't see anything having risen meteorically, I think stuff like Gastly is filling a hole, while the meta is making slight adjustments around it.
 

Fiend

someguy
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LC Leader

Chespin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 5
EVs: 68 HP / 108 Atk / 76 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Synthesis
- Low Sweep / Leech Seed
- Payback / Leech Seed
- Seed Bomb

Throughout my ladder endeavors, I have personally have found this cheeky pokemon a far more useful Drilbur counter than Shroomish has been for myself. What makes Chespin more suited as a wall than Shroomish, for myself, has been its ability Bulletproof, granting Chespin the power to check many more 'mons than Shroomish ever could wish to. But if you'd rather have the occasional nice Effect Spore kick in, it is rather luck dependant and makes the game a coin flip at times, and get 10% to get a chance of Sleep, Paralysis, or Poison, be my guest. And since your Shroomish set happens to forgo Spore, I find it rather hard to give that particular Shroomish a place on any serious team over Chespin, unless I need a very specific niche. Chespin tends to function better a Sporeless Shroomish, especially when it comes to walling important metagame threats unless there is some relevant calc I have been naive too. Also, being weak to U-turn personally makes Leech Seed rather useless usually, all though having an opposing wall Leech Seeded does help when stalling them to death. Just some thoughts.
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Chespin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 5
EVs: 68 HP / 108 Atk / 76 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Synthesis
- Low Sweep / Leech Seed
- Payback / Leech Seed
- Seed Bomb
I really like this idea. Something that should be noted about Bulletproof Chespin is that it actually is immune to both of Gastly's STAB moves. It also walls standard Bellsprout as well as Tentacool (though Knock Off will be annoying). This could contribute to Gastly running Sludge Wave over Sludge Bomb if it becomes common enough, but Bellsprout does not get Sludge Wave, so it's forever walled.

Edit: Gastly can only get Sludge Wave at Level 10 via Dream World, which makes it illegal in Little Cup, despite the move being a TM (it can't learn it by TM for some reason). Gastly is forever walled by Chespin too, then lol

But if you'd rather have the occasional nice Effect Spore kick in, it is rather luck dependant and makes the game a coin flip at times, and get 10% to get a chance of Sleep, Paralysis, or Poison, be my guest. And since your Shroomish set happens to forgo Spore, I find it rather hard to give that particular Shroomish a place on any serious team over Chespin, unless I need a very specific niche. Chespin tends to function better a Sporeless Shroomish, especially when it comes to walling important metagame threats unless there is some relevant calc I have been naive too.
Effect Spore has a 30% chance to status, not 10%. Please don't divide it up as 10% for each to make it seem less important; it's a 30% chance to afflict one of those three on contact. Nobody says Tri Attack has a 6.66666666667% chance to either burn, freeze, or paralyze... they say it has a 20% chance to inflict one of those three. :)

30% is not so dependent on luck that it's not useful. It's the sole reason players use Flame Body over Flash Fire and run Scald on almost everything instead of the more powerful Surf. If you realize how often Scald burns happen or how often Focus Blast misses, Effect Spore has the same chance of activating and doesn't even require Shroomish using a turn; only that a foe touches it, which can be expected to occur reasonably often if it's used as a physical wall. You know that feeling that rushes through your mind when the opponent uses Scald on your physical sweeper or Body Slam on your fast hard-hitting attacker and you pray to yourself (PLEASE DON'T GET THE STATUS HAX)? Lol same thing here.


196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Shroomish: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 68 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Chespin: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Eviolite Chespin's bulk with your set is 23/21/21, and Eviolite Shroomish's bulk with my set is 25/24/21, making Shroomish notably more bulky. Your Chespin is designed to also be able to attack though, which is pretty cool, but its main STAB attack does not simultaneously heal it like Shroomish's Giga Drain. The lengthy list of weaknesses that comes with being pure Grass-type means that you'd want to get as much health back as possible. Also, Chespin is disadvantaged by burn status while Shroomish isn't. Walling Gastly, Bellsprout, and Tentacool is very cool, though. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I wouldn't say that Chespin is outright better.

Also, non-STAB U-turns really don't hurt Shroomish very much and enemies also risk that 30% Effect Spore chance by using it. The only viable user of STAB U-turn in Little Cup is Larvesta, which Shroomish and Chespin have no business trying to stay in against anyway.


I'm happy that this thread has people thinking, because I think LC players are realizing here that there are more usable Drilbur counters than they thought. A very interesting one that I messed with later tonight is this:




Seedot @ Eviolite / itemless
Ability: Pickpocket
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpA / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Defog

Pickpocket Seedot is an interesting answer to Drilbur that also punishes contact moves from physical attackers in a different way. This thing not only tanks Drilbur's Earthquake, but it can also remove Drilbur's Stealth Rock with Defog, something that Foongus, Shroomish, and Chespin cannot do (though I strongly feel that Chespin should have gotten Rapid Spin). The really interesting thing about this set, though, is the ability. Pickpocket 100% guarantees item theft if Seedot is without an item and an enemy with an item makes contact. This would not only deter players from Knocking Off its Eviolite, but also make common physical attackers that rely on their items think twice about touching it when it's itemless. It can also just go itemless from the start and steal an item from the first thing that touches it, which is pretty rude. Reliable healing with Leech Seed and Synthesis makes it hard to bring down from the physical side without a hard super effective hit and it can serve as a pretty cool Knock Off shield for a team, as it can consistently steal more and more items from the opponent's Pokemon simply by being touched. It's kind of mean to be honest; in no other tier is a Pokemon's item SO important to it.

I'm not saying Seedot is whoop-de-doo top tier material, but it is pretty cool to use and will definitely catch some players off-guard. :)
 
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Fiend

someguy
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LC Leader
I really like this idea. Something that should be noted about Bulletproof Chespin is that it actually is immune to both of Gastly's STAB moves. It also walls standard Bellsprout as well as Tentacool (though Knock Off will be annoying). This could contribute to Gastly running Sludge Wave over Sludge Bomb if it becomes common enough, but Bellsprout does not get Sludge Wave, so it's forever walled.



Effect Spore a 30% chance to status, not 10%. Please don't divide it up as 10% for each to make it seem less important; it's a 30% chance to afflict one of those three on contact. Nobody says Tri Attack has a 6.66666666667% chance to either burn, freeze, or paralyze... they say it has a 20% chance to inflict one of those three. :)

30% is not so dependent on luck that it's not useful. It's the sole reason players use Flame Body over Flash Fire and run Scald on almost everything instead of the more powerful Surf. If you realize how often Scald burns happen or how often Focus Blast misses, Effect Spore has the same chance of activating and doesn't even require Shroomish using a turn; only that a foe touches it, which can be expected to occur reasonably often if it's used as a physical wall. You know that feeling that rushes through your mind when the opponent uses Scald on your physical sweeper or Body Slam on your fast hard-hitting attacker and you pray to yourself (PLEASE DON'T GET THE STATUS HAX)? Lol same thing here.


196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Shroomish: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 68 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Chespin: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Eviolite Chespin's bulk with your set is 23/21/21, and Eviolite Shroomish's bulk with my set is 25/24/21, making Shroomish notably more bulky. Your Chespin is designed to also be able to attack though, which is pretty cool, but its main STAB attack does not simultaneously heal it like Shroomish's Giga Drain. The lengthy list of weaknesses that comes with being pure Grass-type means that you'd want to get as much health back as possible. Also, Chespin is disadvantaged by burn status while Shroomish isn't. Walling Gastly, Bellsprout, and Tentacool is very cool, though. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I wouldn't say that Chespin is outright better.

Also, non-STAB U-turns really don't hurt Shroomish very much and enemies also risk that 30% Effect Spore chance by using it. The only viable user of STAB U-turn in Little Cup is Larvesta, which Shroomish and Chespin have no business trying to stay in against anyway.


I'm happy that this thread has people thinking, because I think LC players are realizing here that there are more usable Drilbur counters than they thought. A very interesting one that I messed with later tonight is this:




Seedot @ Eviolite / itemless
Ability: Pickpocket
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpA / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Defog

Pickpocket Seedot is an interesting answer to Drilbur that also punishes contact moves from physical attackers in a different way. This thing not only tanks Drilbur's Earthquake, but it can also remove Drilbur's Stealth Rock with Defog, something that Foongus, Shroomish, and Chespin cannot do (though I strongly feel that Chespin should have gotten Rapid Spin). The really interesting thing about this set, though, is the ability. Pickpocket 100% guarantees item theft if Seedot is without an item and an enemy with an item makes contact. This would not only deter players from Knocking Off its Eviolite, but also make common physical attackers that rely on their items think twice about touching it when it's itemless. It can also just go itemless from the start and steal an item from the first thing that touches it, which is pretty rude. Reliable healing with Leech Seed and Synthesis makes it hard to bring down from the physical side without a hard super effective hit and it can serve as a pretty cool Knock Off shield for a team, as it can consistently steal more and more items from the opponent's Pokemon simply by being touched. It's kind of mean to be honest; in no other tier is a Pokemon's item SO important to it.

I'm not saying Seedot is whoop-de-doo top tier material, but it is pretty cool to use and will definitely catch some players off-guard. :)
Sludge Wave on Gastly is actually illegal in Little Cup due to Sludge Wave coming from dream world, thus only being available at level 10. So hopefully the bug letting us use Sludge Wave Gastly can be removed.

And is there any reason why this thread is revolving around Drilbur counters? Did I miss something?

EDIT: If any of these grass types becoming relevant enough, Poison Jab Drilbur might become much more common. Beware of the rare and amazing Poison Jab Drilbur.

Also I forgot to say why I feel Effect Spore is a coin flip. It's a 10% chance to sleep. It's a 10% chance to poison. It's a 10% chance to paralyze. But these are stacked together on one move. You don't know what effect will happen, you can't honestly expect it either. It makes the game more RNG based with I personally dislike. But that's probably just my preference.
 
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Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Sludge Wave on Gastly is actually illegal in Little Cup due to Sludge Wave coming from dream world, thus only being available at level 10. So hopefully the bug letting us use Sludge Wave Gastly can be removed.
Isn't Sludge Wave TM34 in XY?

Edit: I just checked and you're right, it doesn't learn it by TM.

And is there any reason why this thread is revolving around Drilbur counters? Did I miss something?
Nah, it's all just good discussion about new stuff people might use in the newer metagame. I just saw that you added Chespin as an ideal Drilbur counter after I brought up Shroomish, so I continued from there. I tried a few things, actually, like Lotad... but I couldn't find enough reason to post about that here.

EDIT: If any of these grass types becoming relevant enough, Poison Jab Drilbur might become much more common. Beware of the rare and amazing Poison Jab Drilbur.
Yea, I've seen Rowan and apt-get use it for Cottonee switch-ins. It's pretty cool.
 

Rowan

The professor?
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Don't think I've ran pjab drilbur but it's definitely a viable move to put on if you don't need rocks or spin for whatever reason.

Also chikorita and snivy are nice pure grasses with cool niches. I've hyped up chikorita before as the best ground resist with aromatherapy/heal bell making it a nice support mon for status weak teams that want a drilbur counter. Snivy has 17 speed, taunt, knock off and dual screens which is a really nice set and definitely worth using.
 
sure you got niches but honestly all these niches are just like "WELL IT CAN DO THIS IF I WANNA USE IT" i really never see these guys as something practical and there is a real reason to put in on a team (I mean Bunnelby I totally get) but getting 2HKOed by practically everything like seedot or something that doesnt really accomplish much when you think about it. This is metagame discussion, not finding "shitty" mons and hyping them up. It's not really CREATIVITY when you are just trying to come up with purposes to use the mons you want, when they really aren't good in practice.
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
sure you got niches but honestly all these niches are just like "WELL IT CAN DO THIS IF I WANNA USE IT" i really never see these guys as something practical and there is a real reason to put in on a team (I mean Bunnelby I totally get) but getting 2HKOed by practically everything like seedot or something that doesnt really accomplish much when you think about it. This is metagame discussion, not finding "shitty" mons and hyping them up. It's not really CREATIVITY when you are just trying to come up with purposes to use the mons you want, when they really aren't good in practice.
All I did was share a few things that I tried out and found to work well through practice, while explaining their uses. We were talking about new things that can switch in on Drilbur, not having a festival of hyping subpar Pokemon like they're S-tier. Everything in Little Cup is at least 2HKOed by multiple things; everything has strengths and exploitable weak points. Shroomish can comfortably switch in on Hydro Pump and Earthquake, while Ponyta cannot. Cottonee can comfortably switch in on Drain Punch, while Munchlax and Pawniard cannot. I test stuff before I share it, and there are a lot of things that I don't share because it didn't work well enough in practice. Maybe you could try using some new things and share something, too. :)
 
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apt-get

it's not over 'til it's over
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Seedot @ Eviolite / itemless
Ability: Pickpocket
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpA / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Defog

Pickpocket Seedot is an interesting answer to Drilbur that also punishes contact moves from physical attackers in a different way. This thing not only tanks Drilbur's Earthquake, but it can also remove Drilbur's Stealth Rock with Defog, something that Foongus, Shroomish, and Chespin cannot do (though I strongly feel that Chespin should have gotten Rapid Spin). The really interesting thing about this set, though, is the ability. Pickpocket 100% guarantees item theft if Seedot is without an item and an enemy with an item makes contact. This would not only deter players from Knocking Off its Eviolite, but also make common physical attackers that rely on their items think twice about touching it when it's itemless. It can also just go itemless from the start and steal an item from the first thing that touches it, which is pretty rude. Reliable healing with Leech Seed and Synthesis makes it hard to bring down from the physical side without a hard super effective hit and it can serve as a pretty cool Knock Off shield for a team, as it can consistently steal more and more items from the opponent's Pokemon simply by being touched. It's kind of mean to be honest; in no other tier is a Pokemon's item SO important to it.

I'm not saying Seedot is whoop-de-doo top tier material, but it is pretty cool to use and will definitely catch some players off-guard. :)
Can we not, please? Seedot just isn't viable. It has literally no purpose outside of "beating" drilbur (which it can't even do when drilbur runs poison jab, which I expect to be much more common in this meta). It's 3HKOed by rock slide without eviolite, too, while a Giga Drain coming from 10 SpA will make even the frailest pokémon laugh. It's 3HKOed by Mienfoo's Drain Punch, 2HKOed by Pawniard's Knock Off / Iron Head, Archen eats it for breakfast, Fletchling rapes it, Chinchou can just volt switch out or 2HKO with ice beam, Timburr 2HKOes with ice punch / Poison Jab, Drilbur 2HKOes with Poison Jab, Abra rapes it, Porygon thunder waves + Ice Beam (or tri attack), Ponyta eats it, Vulpix (lol), Bellsprout eats it, Spritzee can CM or just 2HKO with moonblast, Croagunk Sludge Bombs, Vullaby brave birds, Foongus sludge bombs, and Larvesta Flare Blitzes / U-turns.

That's just the top 20, minus Misdreavus, in 1760 stats.

Its Giga Drain is weak, it can't do shit with Leech Seed seeing everything is going to 2HKO it, Defog is useless when the best SRer in the meta 2HKOes you with a common coverage move, and it's just shit on all points.


Can we stop overhyping bad pokémon, please? Seedot has no purpose on a team. It's useless, unless you want a "Drilbur counter" (which is useless, seeing Drilbur cannot sweep, like if you want a ground switch-in I can understand but just use like cottonee or vullaby DAMMIT). I get that some of the people here want to be the next person to have the new INNOVATIVE flavor of the month pokémon, but this is just too much.

EDIT

All I did was share a few things that I tried out and found to work well through practice, while explaining their uses. We were talking about new things that can switch in on Drilbur, not having a festival of hyping subpar Pokemon like they're S-tier. Everything in Little Cup is at least 2HKOed by multiple things; everything has strengths and exploitable weak points. Shroomish can comfortably switch in on Hydro Pump and Earthquake, while Ponyta cannot. Cottonee can comfortably switch in on Drain Punch, while Munchlax and Pawniard cannot. I test stuff before I share it, and there are a lot of things that I don't share because it didn't work well enough in practice. Maybe you could try using some new things and share something, too. :)

That post was kinda of smug, to be honest. That post is basically trying to hide the fact Seedot isn't viable behind some bullshit about type effectiveness, and a taunting ending.
Talking about things that can switch in on Drilbur is fine, but talking about shitmons that have no purpose whatsoever on a team is bad, especially when the person talking about them has LC C&C mods and is supposed to give an example on good pokémon. This thread is often viewed by new people, and I doubt we want to tell them Seedot is viable.

 
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Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Not once did I exaggerate Seedot's viability in the metagame at large in the post where I included the Seedot set. I used Shroomish on a team I tested last night to cover Stunky's Ground weakness, and I posted the team and made it very clear that it was a test and a work in progress, not something serious. This side discussion began when Fiend Hound suggested using Chespin as an alternative Ground resist, so I shared another Pokemon I tried using for the same purpose, and I mentioned some of the other things it can do that the others cannot, which includes removing hazards and stealing items by having enemies make contact. That is literally all. I shared something I tried out in a post that was relevant to the current discussion, which was switching things in on Drilbur. I did not overhype Seedot or suggest it has more viability than it actually has. I simply made a post which included something I tested and enjoyed using for the purpose I wanted.

Poison Jab Drilbur is not common. It wants Earthquake, Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and Rock Slide/Rock Tomb. Swords Dance is an option if it's willing to lose out on one of those. It might become more common later to cover the Grass-types that might arise to wall it, which would only serve as a testament as to their viability. I mean Shroomish of course, and Chespin too.

That post was kinda of smug, to be honest. That post is basically trying to hide the fact Seedot isn't viable behind some bullshit about type effectiveness, and a taunting ending.
Talking about things that can switch in on Drilbur is fine, but talking about shitmons that have no purpose whatsoever on a team is bad, especially when the person talking about them has LC C&C mods and is supposed to give an example on good pokémon. This thread is often viewed by new people, and I doubt we want to tell them Seedot is viable.
Both of you took my entire post out of context as if I was praising Seedot to be top tier or something, which I plainly said at the bottom of the post that I was not doing. You're free to voice your opinions on Pokemon here, but there is no reason to take my contributions to discussion out of context and attack me based on views I did not express, as well as discredit my LC C&C moderator position with the same measure, as if I am misrepresenting it by making a simple post that includes something I tested and was relevant to the current discussion; that was very rude and highly unnecessary. I wasn't being smug or taunting anyone, but I did mean that it would be a lot more constructive to actually bring stuff to the discussion instead of purposely misinterpreting the views of others and attempting to tear them down. A lot of these new people you speak of are here because of me, and blarajan and the higher ups know that. I think they can understand the difference between making a simple post about something that was tested and overhyping a bad Pokemon.

I'd like to see what you and others have tested in the new metagame as well; this is not a joke, a troll, or a taunt. I don't know why people keep assuming I'm doing that, but I guess I have to clearly say it isn't. I spent a lot of time that I didn't have to spend testing things so I could share what I tried out, but who else has cared enough to do that? Please contribute more and insult less. There are much more civil and responsible ways to respond to posts. Thanks.
 

Camden

Hey, it's me!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Utility Drilbur and SD Drilbur are completely different. One packs SD + three attacks and has a field day, especially under sand. The other one packs SR + Spin and is super good with hazard control.

Also, don't forget about Scarf Drilbur, which is more than willing to run 4 attacks.
 
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so much rudeness in this thread

Drilbur
Items | | Eviolite 74.325% | | Choice Scarf 17.414% | | Life Orb 6.456% | | Other 1.806%
Moves | | Earthquake 99.972% | | Rock Slide 89.581% | | Rapid Spin 79.702% | | Stealth Rock 64.605% | | Poison Jab 24.518% | | Shadow Claw 20.281% | | Swords Dance 9.681% | | Other 11.660%
from last months 1760 stats

I've been running Poison Jab on Drilbur for quite a while, and its main use has been destroying Cottonee, although it also has the benefit of blasting through Grass types like Shroomish, Chespin, Seedot, or whatever newfangled Drilbur checks are being thrown around. Shadow Claw is honestly pretty specific to the Grass/Ghosts, and while being able to beat Pumpkaboo on the switch is kinda cool, I'd rather keep coverage on Cottonee. My prediction is that Offensive Drilbur variants will become more commonplace in the new meta. I've experimented and had great success with both Life Orb and Scarf variants last meta, and only expect them to improve. Life Orb Drilbur is very underrated and hard af to switch into, and can do some crazy stuff like 2HKOing Spritzee after rocks. It does suffer from frailty/slowness in comparison to Eviolite/Scarf though. Choice Scarf is starting to get some hype as well; it actually has the potential to clean late game with 1.5x speed, and is still very hard to switch into thanks to Mold Breaker and coverage options not found on the standard Eviolite set.

As far as grass-type checks to Drilbur go, it should be noted that Drilbur isn't obligated to run Eviolite, SR, and Spin on every set, and thats where several Grass-types fall short. Some of the checks are better than others, though. Pumpkaboo is neutral to Poison Jab and can threaten with WoW, Chespin has the ability to wall things outside of Drilbur (Gastly, Bellsprout) and can put pressure on the opposition with Spikes, Shroomish has Spore+Ground Resist (and effect spore I guess), etc. But I won't lie, Seedot is pretty bad considering it's a complete momentum killer. Best case scenario is it forces Drilbur out and Defogs, but then it'll subsequently get forced out and set up on by whatever comes in bc it's not exactly the most threatening mon. And that's not even taking the perfectly reasonable possibility of Poison Jab into account.

I'm all about hyping underused mons, but Seedot is mostly dead weight outside walling Poison Jab-less Drilbur. It has Defog over the other Grass-types, but that doesn't really gain a team momentum (what if Pawniard switches in, what if Scraggy switches in, what if Fletchling switches in). Then again, I hyped PerishTrap Seel a few pages back so wtf do I know. my two cents.
 

GlassGlaceon

My heart has now been set on love

(Bellsprout) (F) @ Oran Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 196 SpA / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- SolarBeam
- Weather Ball
- Substitute
- Belch

This is a set that queenlucy hyped & sent me the pastebin for, so the credit goes to her. I noticed that some people who were hyping Chespin said that it walls Bellsprout, but Belch is a 120 BP Poison-type move that will, most of the time, KO Chespin. However, it can only be used after the user has consumed a berry, but it can be used for the rest of the battle even after it switches out. I think that this can have a small niche in this meta, because of all the Chespin hype (it walls Gastly and Bellsprout, can beat Drilbur, etc.).
um this set sounds cool in theory but why th would chespin try to break the sub and not just waste sun turns by spamming spikes and synthesis ?_?

edit: wow way to delete it..,,,,,

edit2: we have a thread for movesets n cool things btw ppl http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/new-creative-movesets-little-cup-edition.3490753/
 
The purpose of this thread is to allow individuals to contribute to the discussion of a new metagame with their ideas and their experiences. It is NOT the place for personal attacks or mean words. If you disagree with someone or what they say, you respond to their points civilly. If there are posts that attack or insult a person, I'm deleting the post. Depending on the attack, I will infract.

This goes the same for #littlecup on IRC or the Little Cup room in PS!, except with removals of status, mutes, locks, and bans. I refuse to accept the negativity or how rudely clique-y things are. There is absolutely no reason to be mean when we are all here enjoying a game together and when all of us are interested in furthering and bettering Little Cup.

Of course, sometimes you will have personal problems with other players. Before attacking them or having that problem, you can always talk to me and try to tell me what happened so I can help you resolve the issue in a civil fashion. I just want all of our players and contributors to enjoy and feel safe participating in Little Cup. If you are unwilling to help me further that goal, then you are part of the problem. Little Cup is a family, and we are going to start acting like one.

For the record, while this post is being made after the Seedot incident above, it is based off of many problems that have persisted for a long time--I'm just using the above as an opportunity to make this post. I swear I made and posted a very similar thing a few hours ago, but I can't find the post...

tl;dr stop being bitches
 

Rowan

The professor?
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Wow, way to kill the thread blara

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the ability to run more scarfers this meta,,, to revenge missy the best scarfer was undoubtedly pawniard, and scraggy or misdreavus had decent uses to revenge missy as well. Now missy is gone, the threats we want revenging are frail as fuck. You don't need a SE stab to take down gastly, abra or most other 19 and 18 speeders, so you can start running more varied scarfers. Magnemite is a cool one with great typing, amazing SpA and volt switch. Also, 18 or 19 speed scarfers are great for getting the jump on +2 omanyte or shellder which are both really anti-meta rn. Gastly, doduo, taillow, elekid, mincinno can all be decent but are all frail fucks that are susceptible to priority. Thinking about it staryu and deeerling could be decent underrated scarfers, both have decent coverage and a resistance to tirt's aqua jet
 
One thing I like about this LC meta is that it is far more forgiving when it comes to team choice. What I mean by this is, you can use a team full of LC UU Mons and be a lot more successful in the ladder than in previous metas. I am currently running a team of Slugma, Pumpkaboo-Super, Shellos, Riolu, Sandshrew, and Stunky. Honestly, with this team, the only Mons I have trouble with are Diglett (trapping), Chinchou, Magnemite, SD Pawniard, and offensive Archen, really, and ChloroDrought teams can be ass to deal with. I could easily substitute out a few things to ease up on these weaknesses, but I can play around Archen easily, same as Chinchou, and Riolu can really mess up Pawniard.
 
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Aaron's Aron

A concussion update in my info tab
Wow, way to kill the thread blara

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the ability to run more scarfers this meta,,, to revenge missy the best scarfer was undoubtedly pawniard, and scraggy or misdreavus had decent uses to revenge missy as well. Now missy is gone, the threats we want revenging are frail as fuck. You don't need a SE stab to take down gastly, abra or most other 19 and 18 speeders, so you can start running more varied scarfers. Magnemite is a cool one with great typing, amazing SpA and volt switch. Also, 18 or 19 speed scarfers are great for getting the jump on +2 omanyte or shellder which are both really anti-meta rn. Gastly, doduo, taillow, elekid, mincinno can all be decent but are all frail fucks that are susceptible to priority. Thinking about it staryu and deeerling could be decent underrated scarfers, both have decent coverage and a resistance to tirt's aqua jet
I used Scarf Magnemite in the last meta and it was great. It had Volt Switch for great momentum grabbing with great power, and it a great typing to allow it to not mind Stealth Rock at all. It even had Analytic to boost your Volt Switch's power as the opponent switches, and Sturdy if you want to prevent a OHKO. I know other people loved the SturdyJuice + Recyvle Magnemite, but I loved the Scarf Magnemite last meta. I think it was great then and I see no reason for why it should be any less great now.
 
I see a lot of people on this thread talking about how stall is a terrible playstyle and Gastly beats Spritzee or whatever. I personally think that stall can be a effective playstyle, especially after the Missy ban. I want to adress some specific points that have been mentioned, as they can be misleading or downright wrong. First off, the comment about one Taunt user beating entire stall teams. That is simply not true. Taunt is not very common, although you will see it on some Mienfoo. Even if it was used more, it still can't single-handedly beat the entire team. Many stall pokemon like Snubull, Bulky Mienfoo (good counter to Pawn and can knockoff the items of opposing team), and Spritzee couldn't care less if they are taunted. They will take the Taunt and force the pokemon using it out with their STAB attacks, or CM Spritzee could start to set-up. Second, the rise of Gastly as a wall breaker. I think that Gastly is threatening, but no where near as much as Missy. It can't use Trick or Nasty Plot like Missy can, leaving stall teams with a lot less worries about getting their Eviolites tricked away. It can also be beaten by good stall pokemon like Munchlax. While it can run Sub+Disable to deal with some threats, it then loese important coverage is left easier to wall and quickly losing HP. Thats all I have to say for now, but keep in mind that stall has plenty of tools to beat the threats stacked against it.
 
Adding to what insanelegend said, stall can effectively utilize newer threats, like SpD Stunky, which handles both Gastly and Abra surprisingly well. As for as Taunt Mienfoo "beating an entire team of stall," are we forgetting that common stall team use pokemon like Spritzee, Snubbul, or even Shellos who effectively beat Mienfoo 1v1, regardless of being Taunted? (also, I would like to point out that Spritzee can't even be Taunted....) As the previous post has pointed out, stall has countless tricks it can utilize, and countless pokemon who can help support the team. It's not hard to find a defensive pokemon who can handle a specific threat that troubles your stall-oriented team. For instance, the team I posted in my post above this used to use Shinx over Riolu, which caused me to have a team full of Diglett bait, to be easily swept by Swords Dance Pawn, and to walled to various regions of hell by pokemon like Chinchou or Magnemite. Stall is a very effective playstyle, and has been since Murkrow was banned.
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I see a lot of people on this thread talking about how stall is a terrible playstyle and Gastly beats Spritzee or whatever. I personally think that stall can be a effective playstyle, especially after the Missy ban. I want to adress some specific points that have been mentioned, as they can be misleading or downright wrong. First off, the comment about one Taunt user beating entire stall teams. That is simply not true. Taunt is not very common, although you will see it on some Mienfoo. Even if it was used more, it still can't single-handedly beat the entire team. Many stall pokemon like Snubull, Bulky Mienfoo (good counter to Pawn and can knockoff the items of opposing team), and Spritzee couldn't care less if they are taunted. They will take the Taunt and force the pokemon using it out with their STAB attacks, or CM Spritzee could start to set-up. Second, the rise of Gastly as a wall breaker. I think that Gastly is threatening, but no where near as much as Missy. It can't use Trick or Nasty Plot like Missy can, leaving stall teams with a lot less worries about getting their Eviolites tricked away. It can also be beaten by good stall pokemon like Munchlax. While it can run Sub+Disable to deal with some threats, it then loese important coverage is left easier to wall and quickly losing HP. Thats all I have to say for now, but keep in mind that stall has plenty of tools to beat the threats stacked against it.
I'd like to point out that Gastly gets Trick, it does not get Nasty Plot however thank the gods.

Also agreeing with one Taunt user cannot destroy Stall. If any status move(s) is destroying Stall in my opinion it would be Encore and Spikes since they both force switches and make it harder to stay in and wall threats. Defog is also a huge deterrent since Pawniard appreciates the free Sword's Dance. As well as the other Defiant / Competitive mons. Albeit I've not seen Gothita / Piplup being used in such a manner. Anywho~

Gastly 2HKOs Standard Spritzee which doesnt say much. Even SDef Spritzee is 2HKOd. Btw this is assuming BJ or any non damage boosting item like Choice Scarf.
196 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 18-24 (66.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 14-20 (51.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gastly: 6-8 (31.5 - 42.1%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO


Stall's biggest issue right now is Knock Off + Powerful threats. It can work but it's sometimes an uphill battle when you dont have absorbers (which all teams should prepare for knock off anyways)
I've run a bunch of different stalling teams throughout all the main hubs of the meta. I would say it all got better once Swirlix / Meditite / Murkrow / Misdreavus were banned. But seriously I think there's still a ways to go. We got a multitude of threats to supersede before we can succeed.

EDIT: I MISSED SOMETHING IMPORTANT.

Don't think I've ran pjab drilbur but it's definitely a viable move to put on if you don't need rocks or spin for whatever reason.

Also chikorita and snivy are nice pure grasses with cool niches. I've hyped up chikorita before as the best ground resist with aromatherapy/heal bell making it a nice support mon for status weak teams that want a drilbur counter. Snivy has 17 speed, taunt, knock off and dual screens which is a really nice set and definitely worth using.
SNIVY

Also freaking dont forget about GLARE: (ekans and helioptile get it too but snivy is cooler)

The exclusive 100% paralyze move that works on Grass Types. Free switchin on Spores and Stun Spores. Also not to mention you can nail just about anyone with this move. Well not Electric types and Limber mons like Buneary.

Evio Snivy is 2HKO'd by Foongus Sludge Bomb and you can get a free para no problem. Taunt and Torment are strong supplemental moves you can utilize. Healing in Synthesis, Utility in Knock Off, Stab in Leaf Blade...

Oh my gods, Snivy is the best ever. Thank you for mentioning Rowan. Also everyone stop thinking that Snivy is Screener. It has other roles, thank you. Who wants a paralyzed Vullaby who thought it was a screener? No one ever.

EDIT: I had a lot to say sorry
 
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I'd like to point out that Gastly gets Trick, it does not get Nasty Plot however thank the gods.
Yeah, Gastly does learn Trick. Sorry that I messed that up. But it also doesn't have anywhere near the bulk of Missy, and so can't switch into to many attacks, even resisted ones. I think an interesting strategy to beat stall teams could be to use a pokemon with Knock Off and phazing. Not sure if that will work, but a Knock Off shuffler could be used if stall teams ever become prominent. It could even be good against balance. One pokemon the could do that I can think of to do this off the top of my head is Scraggy. It learns Dragon Tail and Knock Off, and is able to shuffle well due to good bulk and Shed Skin to shrug off status (though it is wrecked by Snubbull). What does everyone think of Knock Off shuffling, since items are so big in LC?

Edit: Also want to know what everyone thinks of Stick Web teams. They are a lot better after the Missy ban because now they don't have to deal with a 19 Speed pokemon with Levitate. They are still not very popular, and can still be wrecked by Pawn, But they are a lot better with Missy gone. I think they can succeed but,much like stall, need to prepare for some threats like Pawniard.
 
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