Yea, as much as I love stacking AV, any team with one or more Knock Off users (which is still pretty damn common, even with Aegislash getting the boot) tends to be very annoying.
What's the Bronzong set mentioned here?
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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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What's the Bronzong set mentioned here?
Yeah I think thats right
Some of the bulky Megas work well on stall, like Scizor, Charizard X and Y, and Venusaur. Apart from that, there's nothing you can do to avoid losing an item, so focus on taking the attack itself and keeping your team from being reliant on their items (ie. activate Gliscor's Toxic Orb before it needs to face Bisharp).
So today, I started messing around with defensive Fire-Types, and I came across this gem…
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/160 SpDef/100 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
-Substitute
-Toxic
-Roost
-Flamethrower
Don't let this majestic bird's typing fool you--Moltres can put in some serious work; This set works best when switching in on resisted hits. The real coup-de-grace is Pressure--helping you PP stall powerful moves that threaten your team such as Focus Blast and V-Create, as well as weak resisted moves. By spamming Substitute, you can PP stall things such as slower Scalds, as well as protect yourself from things such as Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Leech Seed. Moltres does, however, have some flaws; a glaring 4x SR weakness screams team support. Pairing it with Mega-Blastoise or a Defog user is of prime concern--I highly recommend Mega-Blastoise, as it absorbs strong water moves and constitutes two thirds of a F/W/G core. I have found Moltres to be very effective on hazard stacking teams due to the sheer amount of Toxic damage that racks up. Although the phoenix can't wall as large a portion of the metagame as--say--Chansey or Skarmory, the combination of Toxic and Pressure stalling is deadly. By no means should you underestimate this bird, as it WILL take advantage of you if you do.
EDIT: Things you can easily switch in on: Scizor (both mega and regular), Ferrothorn, Latias, Mega-Venusaur, Sylveon, Clefable (Unaware you beat; Magic Guard you PP stall), Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Quagsire
Removed Heatran from list Sacredtwin11
Replays:
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/160 SpDef/100 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
-Substitute
-Toxic
-Roost
-Flamethrower
Don't let this majestic bird's typing fool you--Moltres can put in some serious work; This set works best when switching in on resisted hits. The real coup-de-grace is Pressure--helping you PP stall powerful moves that threaten your team such as Focus Blast and V-Create, as well as weak resisted moves. By spamming Substitute, you can PP stall things such as slower Scalds, as well as protect yourself from things such as Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Leech Seed. Moltres does, however, have some flaws; a glaring 4x SR weakness screams team support. Pairing it with Mega-Blastoise or a Defog user is of prime concern--I highly recommend Mega-Blastoise, as it absorbs strong water moves and constitutes two thirds of a F/W/G core. I have found Moltres to be very effective on hazard stacking teams due to the sheer amount of Toxic damage that racks up. Although the phoenix can't wall as large a portion of the metagame as--say--Chansey or Skarmory, the combination of Toxic and Pressure stalling is deadly. By no means should you underestimate this bird, as it WILL take advantage of you if you do.
EDIT: Things you can easily switch in on: Scizor (both mega and regular), Ferrothorn, Latias, Mega-Venusaur, Sylveon, Clefable (Unaware you beat; Magic Guard you PP stall), Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Quagsire
Removed Heatran from list Sacredtwin11
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-151373443
(This one was an early rage quit, but it highlights how easily you can switch in on things, plus this thing's staying power once it is in)
(This one was an early rage quit, but it highlights how easily you can switch in on things, plus this thing's staying power once it is in)
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Just saiyan, I've been trying to hype up Moltres on stall for months now. This old RMT marked some of my earliest experimentation with it:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-team-with-specially-defensive-aegislash.3497959/
I currently run that exact set with Will-O-Wisp > Toxic and sometimes Roar > Substitute. But yeah, Moltres is pretty awesome as long as you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, as otherwise it's pretty good. It has solid bulk, good speed for a defensive Pokemon, a good SpA stat, and a pretty cool typing. Fire/Flying might have three common weaknesses, but it also gives Moltres 6 nice resistances, a Ground immunity, and immunity to all hazards not named "Stealth Rock" and burns. It's a great catch-all check to the things you mentioned in addition to key wallbreakers like Landorus, Mega Mawile, and Mega Charizard Y. Literally the only reason I don't use it more often than I do is because of that darn Stealth Rock weakness. If this thing had Magic Guard, it would be a very solid defensive Pokemon, but alas...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-team-with-specially-defensive-aegislash.3497959/
I currently run that exact set with Will-O-Wisp > Toxic and sometimes Roar > Substitute. But yeah, Moltres is pretty awesome as long as you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, as otherwise it's pretty good. It has solid bulk, good speed for a defensive Pokemon, a good SpA stat, and a pretty cool typing. Fire/Flying might have three common weaknesses, but it also gives Moltres 6 nice resistances, a Ground immunity, and immunity to all hazards not named "Stealth Rock" and burns. It's a great catch-all check to the things you mentioned in addition to key wallbreakers like Landorus, Mega Mawile, and Mega Charizard Y. Literally the only reason I don't use it more often than I do is because of that darn Stealth Rock weakness. If this thing had Magic Guard, it would be a very solid defensive Pokemon, but alas...
Moltres vs heatran will generally end poorly for moltres. Sure neither can do much to eachother but heatran can set up rocks that moltres hates so much and if it has it, Roar it out. If it doesn't, it can simply switch to a threatening teammate.
Imo, defensive fire types are on the way out now that Mawile is probably getting the axe. Making a stall team is much easier on the suspect ladder now that you don't have to take it into account, for precisely the reason that you aren't forced to run a usually severely SR weak fire mon in order to reliably counter it. Fire types are very useful right now though on the normal ladder and Fire is underrated as a defensive typing because it has the second highest number of resistances in the game after Steel.
The problem has always been the nasty stealth rock weakness, especially since a lot of good fire types with access to recovery also have another typing which further increases the weakness to a paraplegia-inducing 4x, like Moltress, Charizard and Volcarona, which often makes them difficult in practice to reliably fulfill their intended role. Arcanine will be unranked when Mawile leaves but Moltress could stay in D because of having a better set and being able to counter Zard-Y (which is still a bit of a redundant overlap since Chansey can already do that, and you need as many well defined niche roles as you can get on stall these days, Doublade being a better idea than Moltress imo for example). A couple of those mons that Moltress could theoretically switch into, you also have to be a bit careful of, like Quaggy and Mandibuzz, as they often carry Toxic.
The problem has always been the nasty stealth rock weakness, especially since a lot of good fire types with access to recovery also have another typing which further increases the weakness to a paraplegia-inducing 4x, like Moltress, Charizard and Volcarona, which often makes them difficult in practice to reliably fulfill their intended role. Arcanine will be unranked when Mawile leaves but Moltress could stay in D because of having a better set and being able to counter Zard-Y (which is still a bit of a redundant overlap since Chansey can already do that, and you need as many well defined niche roles as you can get on stall these days, Doublade being a better idea than Moltress imo for example). A couple of those mons that Moltress could theoretically switch into, you also have to be a bit careful of, like Quaggy and Mandibuzz, as they often carry Toxic.
jbtc10 Moltres is still quite good despite not having to take on Mawile. It spreads status like an absolute champion, and countering Zard-Y means that you can run other clerics on your team. I think it actually adds quite a bit in terms of team building. Also, on paper, Moltres is actually a lot worse than in practice; for example, Moltres is a fantastic switch into base form Charizard. Reason being that if it's Y-Zard, it counters it; if it's X, it tanks the hit, and then you can switch to your X counter. Aside from that, you can switch in on clerics to drain them of their Heal Bells. Pressure means that they only get to hit that button 4 times. Obviously the SR weakness is a problem, but it can be mitigated with smart play, and hazard removal. I'm not saying that Moltres is singlehandedly going to win you games, but it definitely pulls its weight.
By the way, it works great in the Mawile-less ladder; that's the only ladder I've tested it on.
By the way, it works great in the Mawile-less ladder; that's the only ladder I've tested it on.
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I know it can be good, I've used Moltress quite a lot back when I was testing all the different viable fire types for stall, but Chansey can also switch into base Zard to scout, and it actually does this better imo due to taking less damage if X decides to go for Dragon Claw or Outrage straight away, it's not 4x weak to rocks which is undeniably huge, it counters pretty much every other special attacker in the game at the same time, and has a better support movepool. This isn't to say that Moltress doesn't have its advantages, it does, I've just found it's a bit difficult to justify a slot now that one of the biggest reasons to use it (counter both Zard-Y and Mawile in one slot) has been removed. Now it's basically back to being a special wall instead of also countering a very important physical mon, which means it now more or less competes with other generally better special walls like Chansey and so on. I'm not saying Chansey is the be-all or anything, just that a 4x SR weak poke doesn't scream reliability like other things do, and stall ideally likes to have as little switching pressure applied to it as possible. Having WoW is always a major selling point though, which is mainly what differentiates itself from most of the others now.
Yeah i agree with everyone else moltres doesn't seem like it'll work with that set but you a can try different sets but it wont be as good. :)
I've been using Moltres on and off for literal months now and I can assure you that it most certainly does work, lol. I disagree with TFL that Moltres teams are inherently worse because even with the support it requires, it handles such a unique combination of wallbreakers and other random Pokemon that nothing else does. You just have to be careful to keep Stealth Rock off the field, but that's more than possible, especially if you're playing bad ladder players (and in some cases, Moltres can switch into some of the stuff it beats even with Stealth Rock on the field). Although, I do agree with jbct10 that Mega Mawile is literally half the reason to use Moltres right now by itself, and it'll be far less useful with Mega Mawile gone.
I'm pretty sure Pressure only works on moves that actually affect the opponent. So Toxic/Will-o-wisp/etc. and attacking moves lose 2 PP per use, but things like Roost, Protect and Heal Bell still only use 1 PP per use. That's how it is in-game anyways, dunno if Showdown programmed that differently.
From my experience, most dont carry taunt. It's usually between Lave Plume, Flash, Cannon, Roar, Earth Power, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Protect. And if it does carry Taunt then now you have a free turn to bait the Taunt ado your can switch to a counter.
I recently just got back into playing and stall has always been my favorite style. After lurking around and doing some runs I've come to really like what I have right now as a pure-stall team with no sweepers or heavy hitting Assault Vest users. I can't get over how awesome the Quag / M-Venu / Tran combination is and I put a major focus on Toxic stalling with recovery on every member minus Tran.
Would pure-stall be viable at higher levels? If so, are there any real hurdles I would have to break through? I've gotten a lot of comments on the necessity of dealing with M-Heracross and M-Medicham already and I'm currently using Skarmory to help deal with that but I wondered if the idea of bulky Crobat could also serve that role with Jolly and minimal speed investment as Infiltrator can help counter Sub sets better.
Also, what do you normally use as a lead for stall? I've been starting with Heatran but it seems like every lead I face just runs something to OHKO it making me use Protect in fear of losing the battle for early SR setup. Is it even a big deal for stall to miss SR early on? Here is what I have at the moment for reference.
Would pure-stall be viable at higher levels? If so, are there any real hurdles I would have to break through? I've gotten a lot of comments on the necessity of dealing with M-Heracross and M-Medicham already and I'm currently using Skarmory to help deal with that but I wondered if the idea of bulky Crobat could also serve that role with Jolly and minimal speed investment as Infiltrator can help counter Sub sets better.
Also, what do you normally use as a lead for stall? I've been starting with Heatran but it seems like every lead I face just runs something to OHKO it making me use Protect in fear of losing the battle for early SR setup. Is it even a big deal for stall to miss SR early on? Here is what I have at the moment for reference.
Pure Stall is like the only playstyle at higher levels .-. Except not really, but it's common at least because people don't want to lose points so they resort to stall. It's pretty hard for stall to beat a well-played Mega Heracross/Medicham. Mew deals well with Medicham and you can EV it so that you outspeed and burn Mega Heracross but you pretty much die either way to Pin Missile. You can run Aerial Ace Gliscor too but it's just bad. Mega Heracross is such a pain...
Your lead kind of depends on what you expect your opponent to lead with. If it's a pokemon that you have a safe switch in to (like Greninja --> go into Chansey) then lead with your SR user or something else that can give you an advantage, like Sleep Powder Mega Venusaur. You can always switch out safely if they do lead with it, but if they don't you might have the advantage. If they have a dangerous pokemon like Mega Heracross you obviously don't want to lead something like Heatran and give it a free kill. Best is to prepare for the worst-case scenario lead or the most threatening or whatever. Everything else Stall can deal with normally even if your lead is a bad matchup by switching out.
Thoughts on Empoleon? He has decent 84/88/111 bulk, with 101 SpA, access to roar, toxic, Defog and Stealth Rock. He also gets Aqua Jet for (admittedly weak) priority, and Scald for burns. His typing is unique and givens him 10 resistances, 3 weaknesses and 1 immunity. Lack of reliable recovery hurts, but some other pokemon (like heatran) manage to get around that.
I know he's outclassed, and doesn't have much unique to him except his typing, but he has a serviceable movepool and serviceable stats to go with that typing.
I dunno, its likely he's generally outclassed by other bulky waters but maybe he has a shot.
I know he's outclassed, and doesn't have much unique to him except his typing, but he has a serviceable movepool and serviceable stats to go with that typing.
I dunno, its likely he's generally outclassed by other bulky waters but maybe he has a shot.
I like Empoleon a lot but while the defensive typing offers him more resistances he kind of gets worse from Steel typing overall imo. Gaining a weakness to Ground and Fighting is huge when these are the kinds of moves I wanted to switch a bulky water into in the first place.
If you compare it to a plain Water-type they have one less weakness, exchanging Fighting and Ground for Grass, and with recovery the attacks that hit neutral can be negligible rather than soaked in Empoleons case. I think the best way to cover the lack of reliable recovery would be to always go for Protect in your slots and opt between Roar and Toxic. Another cool thing about Emp is that it gets Flash Cannon if you want it for Fairy coverage or Knock Off to get even more annoying.
Overall, Empoleon might be able to fit a niche but I don't think you can slap it as a copy of other bulky Waters out there because of those key weaknesses. The movepool looks flexible enough though.
Empoleon is a really niche mon that generally is better not to run, since it stops you from using better bulky waters like Slowbro, Suicune, Alomomola, and Quagsire. It still has its perks though, since a grass neutrality + all of the resistances handed by steel are nice. If your team is structured so that it needs a water-type hazard remover, generally Starmie or Blastoise is better. But, Defog's niches over Rapid Spin, Empoleon's better defensive typing, and access to Knock Off make it worth it on some teams. I personally prefer Empoleon on Bulky Offensive teams as a bulky + powerful check to Azumarill, and I know/think ctc + trc would back me up on that.
tl;dr I'm not sure about it on stall, but it's niche/decent on bo.
Well, my particular use would be as a possible replacement for Heatran, giving a team water and ice coverage with some similar support options, and bring able to take random special attacks. The difference being that Heatran doesn't wanna take Water attacks and Empoleon doesn't wanna take Electric attacks. Heatran is better overall, but I feel like it could work.
So would your team then have two bulky waters? My stall team now uses a FWG core, and I think most do as well.
Yeah, it would in fact use two bulky waters. It has a FWG core outside of Heatran as well, so I'd be trading a second fire for a second water. I dunno if that's really the solution, but currently Heatran was pulling the least weight of the members on the team and my team would really like water and ice coverage in general.
I'm gonna test it but I was wondering if I could have help in finding out what Empoleon can handle and what it can't, which is why I asked about it.
I'm gonna test it but I was wondering if I could have help in finding out what Empoleon can handle and what it can't, which is why I asked about it.
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