np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

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KM

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Hello why on earth would snorlax attack straight away instead of simply setuping 2 curses and then 2hkoing volca while a +3 volca actually fails to 2hko back. Sure theres that 30% chance to burn but that by itself doesnt invalidate lax as a counter just like venomoth having a 25% chance to miss sleep powder doesnt make it any less broken. If you want to make an actual case for volca being banned then the focus should be on the life orb set which can actually hurt lax badly and even do something to blissey (but still loses to both,,,).
if the volcarona player isn't a dumbass and knows they won't 2hko at +3 why would they even boost to +3? they'd just boost to +2, bug buzz while you get your second curse, bringing down to 68-72 assuming no prior damage, then bug buzz again as you body slam return the first time, bringing down to ~40%. at that point return is doing a little over 60% average with lefties, so they can just roost multiple times and fish for the burn (or get more damage off you). worst case scenario you're left with a low HP snorlax, but very likely scenario is that you get burned at some point, have to rest, and end up losing because you don't get perfect sleep talk rolls. saying that snorlax is a hard counter is ridiculous, and if you're portraying snorlax as the hardest counter it only further weakens your argument that it isn't broken.
 
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if the volcarona player isn't a dumbass and knows they won't 2hko at +3 why would they even boost to +3? they'd just boost to +2, bug buzz while you get your second curse, bringing down to 68-72 assuming no prior damage, then bug buzz again as you body slam the first time, bringing down to ~40%. at that point return is doing a little over 60% average with lefties, so they can just roost multiple times and fish for the burn (or get more damage off you). worst case scenario you're left with a low HP snorlax, but very likely scenario is that you get burned at some point, have to rest, and end up losing because you don't get perfect sleep talk rolls. saying that snorlax is a hard counter is ridiculous, and if you're portraying snorlax as the hardest counter it only further weakens your argument that it isn't broken.
You do realize that body slam has as much chances of paralysing volca as it has of burning lax right? Im not saying snorlax is the best counter but if youre just gonna assume that moth is going get all the hax while lax isnt getting shit then thats a pointless argument. Also keep in mind that bulkarona has a LOT more counters than just lax unlike the lo set which is much harder to deal with and thats the set that people should be focused on.
 

KM

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...body slam? on curse lax?

in that case, you are relying completely on hax, because +2 isn't even a guaranteed 2hko o_o


EDIT: I"M DUMB i said body slam instead of return on the first post. at any rate, if you run return you risk burn from fishing, if you run body slam you risk not 2hkoing.
 
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So seeing as Volcarona is reaching a pretty broken consensus I'd like to bring up something I've been thinking about lately.

I've been wondering what makes Magnezone so broken yet Magneton isn't? Magneton is hardly weaker than Zone, and whereas the extra speed is largely wasted considering the lack of anything between 60 and 70 unless counting scarf, Magneton can use the extra points to help bridge the gap in bulk. Speaking of bulk, I know 50/95/70 is awful and 60/115/90 is considerably better, but the Choice Specs set is coming in against things that're slower and immediately threatened by it, such as bulky waters, or fairy's and Crobat, where the extra bulk doesn't help THAT much regardless. There's also the fact that nigh anything that could KO Magneton, could do the same to Zone (thinking any EQ user, fighting type, or fire type), seeing as Eviolite is actually better than Vest for the most part, considering Eviolite doesn't prevent the use of Magnet rise or sub.

I'm not typing this because I want Magneton Suspected, I'm saying this because I'm curious why we can't have Zone back.
 
casey90 zone will probably be retested in the second round otesting.

But, when zone was tested it literally had 0 safe switch ins. A specs boosted analytic tbolt would normally be easily absorbed by florges or a ground type. But, flash cannon and hp grass ohkos that supposed safe switch in. Its not a matterof checking zone, but more of switching in safely. Blissey in the tier helps, but other than that there are still few switch ins...
 
Council drags with these votes god damn... if the discussion in the thread ended then the discussion among the members should last much longer
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Council drags with these votes god damn... if the discussion in the thread ended then the discussion among the members should last much longer
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just bear in mind they do have lives so... As what tends to happen in tournaments or in previous decisions they may take longer due to other matters outside of Smogon... While the discussion in the thread may have ended it also could still be ongoing in mIRC, which also happens. Besides the votes end when a decisive amount of votes are reached so it isn't dragged on for too long at least.
 
I get that Patrick, I'm just wondering why magneton isn't getting a similar treatment
Well keep in mind the set that caused Magnezone to be banned: Choice Specs Analytic. The thing about the set is that it could come in over and over again thanks to Magezone's great bulk and insane resistances and do incredible damage to things or pivot out to do it all again later. What is most important is actually the first detail I mentioned, Magnezone's bulk, as that is the primary difference between Magneton and Magnezone. While Zone's 70/115/90 bulk is quite impressive for a stallbreaker, Ton's 50/95/70 bulk needs a lot to be desired. To achieve similar bulk, Magneton has to hold eviolite, but that's where the problem arises: it can't hold Specs and Eviolite at the same time.

TL;DR, Magneton has to choose between bulk and power, Magnezone can have both.
 
I get that Patrick, I'm just wondering why magneton isn't getting a similar treatment
Nitpick: Magnezone have 70/115/90 bulk.

Magneton doesn't get the same treatment is because it's a lot worse at doing its job. Magneton can't stomach the attacks the walls can make, needing a lot more prediction/support than Magnezone.

bulky waters, or fairy's and Crobat
Let's look at that:

Slowbro
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 428-506 (108.6 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Slowbro can't tank either of them

4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 94-112 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It's a bigger difference than you think. Let's assume slowbro scalds magneton on the switch. 2 scalds means 75.6-89.4 damage. With a single layer of spikes on both switches magneton dies. If scald get's a burn(51% chance) and magnezone switches on stealth rock, it also won't get a second attack. Killing bulky waters is magneton only niche and it can't even switch on slowbro scalds twice.

Alomomola
No relevant change

Blastoise (Mega)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 404-476 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 394-464 (129.6 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (other moves don't ohko)
Magneton might use some evs(68 plus creep vs Zone's 148) to outspeed Blastoise on a predicted spin, making it slightly better than Zone.

Suicune
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 87-103 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 372-440 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Zone can handle typical suicines.

4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If you suffer a burn or take stealth rocks damage, Magneton won't even check Crocurne again:
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Swampert
No relevant change

Empoleon
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 103-123 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 31.5% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Again, if there are hazards or you suffer a burn, you can't switch twice.

Florges
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 282-332 (78.3 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 75-89 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO Magneton counters Florgers well enough

Aromatisse and Crobat aren't meant to take any special wallbreakers.

Magneton can barely get past Spd Mew:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 228-268 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mew can PP stall Magneton until the 10% drop. If it used wisp when Magneton switched, it might even outlast Magneton.

Anything bulkier than 100/100 without a stab weakness and with a reliable recovery can wall it.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- 75% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 178-211 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And of course:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 177-208 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Magneton: 100-100 (32.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

What makes Magneton more managable than Magnezone is that nearly every wall can 2hko it after a scald burn or hazard. You might add an eviolite but without specs, it can't wallbreak many things.

252+ SpA Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 156-184 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 176-210 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery then
252+ SpA Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Suicine used rest!
2
52+ SpA Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 144-169 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- 84.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery can come in, burn you and then stall
 
actually, volca has already been banned, but kokoloko is a lazy nig and takes one billion years to post it oO
So which suspect is next then? Zygarde? Interestingly, Heracross has been going up the usage stats if anybody noticed, thanks to its mega form and with Aegis and from the looks of it MMawile leaving the tier more people are starting to take notice of it that I actually see this one as moving on up.
 
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So which suspect is next then? Zygarde? Interestingly, Heracross has been going up the usage stats if anybody noticed, thanks to its mega form and with Aegis and from the looks of it MMawile leaving the tier more people are starting to take notice of it that I actually see this one as moving on up.
A pokemon is moving up solely because of its mega never to be used by lower tiers again, sucks doesn't it
 
A pokemon is moving up solely because of its mega never to be used by lower tiers again, sucks doesn't it
Not really it will be interesting to the tier to say at the least besides with ORAS around the corner we can expect more shifts on the meta and potential drop downs, e.g. Togekiss, with new introductions, or more viable mons like Mega-Lop or even Mega-Diancie. Nothing really to dwell on just part of a cycle. Something is bound to take its place anyway, and the tier has enough wall breakers as it is or clean up that it isn't like we are running out of options anytime soon.
 
Heracross leaving would be interesting, but honestly it's to be expected since Mega Heracross has gained a new lease of life in OU with most of the things against it gone.

Besides, we lost Scarf Gardevoir to OU already, so Heracross leaving isn't gonna be anything new. With ORAS around the corner, you'd get more new toys to mess with anyway (from Mega Metagross's probably-obscene strength, to Mega Lopunny's perfect STAB coverage).
 

KM

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heracross wasn't exactly the most balanced thing in the tier anyway, so i really can't say i'm that sad to lose it. it may have been slightly too good for UU anyway :L
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
To anyone who cares: NEVER user 252 Def 252 SpD Bold Blissey because that set has almost exactly the same defenses as 252 HP 252 Def Calm Blissey (one is less than 1% on average higher in special bulk the other is less than 1% higher in physical bulk, rounding makes this not even a reality I believe. By 1% I mean you take 50.5% instead of 50%).

However the max HP variants pass bigger Wishes and take less from Seismic Toss. Since they have essentially equal bulk from a statistics point of view these are free pluses that come at no trade off.

Also if I am correct the way Pokemon mechanics works is that if you take a drop in special defense (say from Seed Flare or the occasional Fake Tear low ladder player) it will be more dramatic on 252 SpD Bold Blissey than 0 SpD Calm Blissey. So this is another minor plus.
 
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kokoloko

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radianthero156 spilled the beans already but yeah volcarona has acquired enough votes to send it back to BL.

the next retest is going to be manaphy. the ladder will be updated at The Immortal's earliest convenience.

that is all.
 
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kokoloko

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about to post results. give me like 30 mins.

they're up on the other thread. only 10 paragraphs atm, will post the rest when they come in.
 
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LOL we're actually doing this

Manaphy is really going to put a dent on offensive teams, with shit like Froslass and Roserade as common Spikes setters it's really going to enjoy the little time it has in the meta, as well as the fact that Manaphy has decent enough natural bulk to tank hits from a lot of hard hitters such as CBnape. However, the main problem i see with it is that, before set-up, it hits really fucking weak. granted, it has one of the best boosting moves in the game but we'll see how it goes. :]

edit: just realized this is my 500th post and i wasted it fuck
 
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There doesn't even need to be discussion on manaphy, 100s across the board, epic af boosting move, Grass-, Ice-, Water-type coverage. Bout to see a toxic blissey on every team.

Manaphy gonna catch a nice clean BAN from me.


Edit: also forgot to mention CM Rest rain dance Manaphy 6-0es stall unless you running Water Absorb Jellicent which gets popped by a +3 Energy Ball.
 

kokoloko

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i really would prefer if we hold off judgement on manaphy at least for a little...

lets be more objective for a second. manaphy suffers the same problem in UU than it does in OU. lack of setup opportunities versus offense and absolute garbage for damage output without setup. yes, it will be strong as fuck versus stall and defensive balance, but revenge killing is an option for those playstyles and they will honestly need to adapt for every single suspect, not just this one.

also the reason i picked manaphy next is:

1. i dont wanna do zygarde until togekiss drops because thats a perfect counter so it will affect the outcome.
2. alakazite is dumb because the meta is largely the same since the last time we voted on it and, unlike volcarona, it was a 12-0 vote in june.
3. hawlucha and diggersby are more dangerous to a wider range of playstyles, so they are "more" broken, hence they will go after manaphy.

atm im thinking i will let this test run until about the end of the month, that way we can tackle the remaining tests once the drops occur. as of right now i estimate we will be done with the initial phase of suspecting by the end of the year. probably sooner.
 
Not that it's especially relevant to the remaining suspects but I think at this point the rises will affect the tier more than the drops.

The OU stats for July had Heracross, Slowbro, and Amoonguss all above the usage cutoff (granted this was before the Aegi ban but they all got better with that besides maybe Amoonguss). Mew's also gotten a lot of hype and could rise if the ladder catches on quickly.

Those are all pretty important 'mons for balance teams, and in particular the former 3 were all really important Suicune checks for the teams that used them.

September will be interesting
 
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