Depends on your team's coverage as a whole. Roost is a must on any Charizard X unless its role is only sweeping. Then you have three spots, a fire move is a must to not be walled by the steels in OU. So you have two moves to play with. If you add Defog as one of them then the last would be DClaw/Earthquake or even Will-o-Wisp. Actually I think Defog is usable on a purely defensive set. However, I wouldn't recommend this because you would be wasting X's offensive power which is gargantuam. Charizard X as a defogger would probably work on HO teams, however, which already have many other power pokes.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokémon Charizard
- Thread starter X5Dragon
- Start date
- Status
For Mega Charizard X, would this bulkier DD set variant be viable?
CharX@Charizardite X
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk/112 Speed/144 HP
Dragon Dance
Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
Dragon Claw/Outrage
Earth Quake/Thunder Pwnch/Roost
The idea was to only give him enough speed to outspeed positive base 130s after a single DD, and load the rest into HP, while still maintaining max attack. I think this still gives an odd Hp number at lvl 50 and 100 (for stealth rock). Does anyone know if this variation is at all worth it or is the loss of speed before a DD too detrimental?
CharX@Charizardite X
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk/112 Speed/144 HP
Dragon Dance
Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
Dragon Claw/Outrage
Earth Quake/Thunder Pwnch/Roost
The idea was to only give him enough speed to outspeed positive base 130s after a single DD, and load the rest into HP, while still maintaining max attack. I think this still gives an odd Hp number at lvl 50 and 100 (for stealth rock). Does anyone know if this variation is at all worth it or is the loss of speed before a DD too detrimental?
That'll work fine but I personally go with 120 speed or 160 speed to outspeed Jolly Mega Ttar (120 Spd EVs) and Adamant Excadrill (160 Spd EVs) on bulky DDZard-X. I also run 248 HP (odd HP number at Lv100) on all bulky DD variants of MegaZardX, and throw the remainder in Atk. Maximizing HP allows Zard to set up on a lot more things and Bulky DD is actually the more common form of DDZard-X in my experience.
To summarize, Bulky DD Zard X spreads I recommend are:
1) 248 HP/ 100 Atk/ 160 Spd (Scarf Excadrill is a bitch, but you will notice a big power drop)
2) 248 HP/ 140 Atk/ 120 Spd (if Excadrill isn't a problem for your team and still stronger than Jolly max Atk Zard)
3) 136 HP/ 252 Atk/ 120 Spd (if you really want to keep max Atk)
4) 96 HP/ 252 Atk/ 160 Spd (again, Excadrill is a bitch..)
Last edited:
Brilliant thanks for the advice :)
I run three Charizard sets as of late; one Zard X set and two Zard Y sets for singles and doubles.
BOOM. Mind Crush! (OHKO!)
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Def/SpD
Nature: Adamant
Moveset:
Flare Blitz
Dragon Claw
Brick Break
Dragon Dance
Set Details: This set is a counterpart to the typical Dragon Dancing set that is the exact same except Earthquake is replaced by Brick Break, making full usage of Tough Claws, and defeating Heatrans all the same. Like the EQ set, Charizard's biggest goal is to get up one Dragon Dance and start sweeping. A Jolly nature is not really necessary because Charizard won't be setting up in the face of Excadrills, or trying to speed tie anything at 100 Base Speed. The extra damage output is especially helpful in obliterating Mega Venasaurs and the like. Often times as Charizard begins to Dragon Dance in the face of Ferrothorn, Tyranitar switches in to try to counter and threaten Charizard. A +1 Earthquake won't kill, but a +1 Brick Break definitely will.
The only pokemon that "walls" Charizard's attacks with this set is Azumarill, but if you are unable to remove Azumarill from the game before you find the last chance to Dragon Dance and you have no other choice but to keep your boosts, you can easily 2HKO most Azumarills with Flare Blitz. The other few pokemon that can stop Charizard are Prankster Twavers which sacrifice themselves so that their teammate can come in next and revenge kill Charizard, and some of the most defensive pokemon in the game such as Mandibuzz which can hit back extremely hard with Foul Play, and Gliscor which threatens Earthquake.
C-C-C-C-COVERAGE FTW
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SpD/Def
Nature: Modest/Timid
Moveset:
Flamethrower
Solarbeam
Focus Blast
Dragon Pulse
Set Details: Charizard has an amazing spectrum of moves, almost everything it needs to handle everything in the meta. Fire Blast isn't necessary over Flamethrower because Flamethrower does all the damage you'll need, and the misses aren't worth it. In many situations, you'll find that your opponent is definitely going to switch out with his Ferrothorn, but a good Sun-Boosted Flamethrower will do more than Stealth Rocks or Spikes damage to the pokemon coming in, even if it's resisted. Like any other special attacker in existence, Charizard can't touch Blissey, but like any smart trainer who wants to effectively use a special attacker, you should always have a safe counter to deal with Blisseys that won't get Toxic Stalled to death. Solarbeam is incredible on Charizard, as water types no longer function as counters to Charizard. Even if they are fairly bulky, a combination of Flamethrower on the switch in and Solarbeam next will toast almost all water types. Most of the pokemon that give Charizard trouble are fast Electric/Rock type users like Jolteon, Manectric, Garchomp and Aerodactyl, so Charizard fairs wonderfully with Sticky Web support, allowing it to easily OHKO Jolteon and Manectric with Flamethrower, and pick off a non-full HP Garchomp with Dragon Pulse. Charizard also appreciates a little bit of team support for Aerodactyl and Thundurus.
Versus teams with Tyranitar, you can often predict the switch into Tyranitar and attempt to fire off a Focus Blast without having to worry about the consequences of missing your attack. From then on, you can feel free to preserve Zard Y for any Ferrothorns that the rest of your team can't handle, or try again with Focus Blast with no regrets, if the first one missed or didn't kill because Ttar is Assault Vested or something. Sometimes you'll have a reason to stay in and risk the biscuit if Tyranitar runs Pursuit and you know he's going for it, but otherwise with this set, Charizard's threats and counters fall to just Blissey, Chansey, other special walls like Goodra and Florges, Thundurus and Zapdos who can't be slowed down with Sticky Web, and fast Scarfers with Rock attacks.
EVERYONE DIES TO THE ALMIGHTY FIRE
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Speed / 4 SpD/Def
Nature: Modest/Timid
Moveset:
Heatwave
Solarbeam
Dragon Pulse
Protect
Set Details: Unless your opponent has brought specific counters just for Charizard alone, they'll find themselves getting double OHKOs from Charizard's devastating Sub-Boosted Heatwave. Only pokemon with high special defense or a resistance to Fire can survive just one Heatwave. This set features the sheer power of Charizard's almighty destructive fiery power in doubles. This set is primarily meant for the VGC setting, however it works well in any Doubles setting for the same reasons. With Charizard simply on the field, way over more than half of the pokemon in this meta are threatened. Charizard can deal quickly with Azumarils and other water types before they can set up. A Modest Charizard Y will OHKO a Politoed with no special defense investment with Solarbeam. With common and powerful Doubles support strategies like Tailwind and Thunderwave, Charizard can out speed all its threats, OHKO Salamences, Greninjas and Manectrics. With a little Quick Guard or team support, it doesn't have to worry about those Choice Banded Talonflames.
Charizard in Doubles does have to worry about Mega Kangaskhan's powerful Return attack, Garchomp's, Ttar's and Aerodactyl's Rock Slides, and Choice Banded Talonflame, however with the right team support, it can easily be one of the most threatening pokemon in the entire meta.
BOOM. Mind Crush! (OHKO!)
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Def/SpD
Nature: Adamant
Moveset:
Flare Blitz
Dragon Claw
Brick Break
Dragon Dance
Set Details: This set is a counterpart to the typical Dragon Dancing set that is the exact same except Earthquake is replaced by Brick Break, making full usage of Tough Claws, and defeating Heatrans all the same. Like the EQ set, Charizard's biggest goal is to get up one Dragon Dance and start sweeping. A Jolly nature is not really necessary because Charizard won't be setting up in the face of Excadrills, or trying to speed tie anything at 100 Base Speed. The extra damage output is especially helpful in obliterating Mega Venasaurs and the like. Often times as Charizard begins to Dragon Dance in the face of Ferrothorn, Tyranitar switches in to try to counter and threaten Charizard. A +1 Earthquake won't kill, but a +1 Brick Break definitely will.
The only pokemon that "walls" Charizard's attacks with this set is Azumarill, but if you are unable to remove Azumarill from the game before you find the last chance to Dragon Dance and you have no other choice but to keep your boosts, you can easily 2HKO most Azumarills with Flare Blitz. The other few pokemon that can stop Charizard are Prankster Twavers which sacrifice themselves so that their teammate can come in next and revenge kill Charizard, and some of the most defensive pokemon in the game such as Mandibuzz which can hit back extremely hard with Foul Play, and Gliscor which threatens Earthquake.
C-C-C-C-COVERAGE FTW
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SpD/Def
Nature: Modest/Timid
Moveset:
Flamethrower
Solarbeam
Focus Blast
Dragon Pulse
Set Details: Charizard has an amazing spectrum of moves, almost everything it needs to handle everything in the meta. Fire Blast isn't necessary over Flamethrower because Flamethrower does all the damage you'll need, and the misses aren't worth it. In many situations, you'll find that your opponent is definitely going to switch out with his Ferrothorn, but a good Sun-Boosted Flamethrower will do more than Stealth Rocks or Spikes damage to the pokemon coming in, even if it's resisted. Like any other special attacker in existence, Charizard can't touch Blissey, but like any smart trainer who wants to effectively use a special attacker, you should always have a safe counter to deal with Blisseys that won't get Toxic Stalled to death. Solarbeam is incredible on Charizard, as water types no longer function as counters to Charizard. Even if they are fairly bulky, a combination of Flamethrower on the switch in and Solarbeam next will toast almost all water types. Most of the pokemon that give Charizard trouble are fast Electric/Rock type users like Jolteon, Manectric, Garchomp and Aerodactyl, so Charizard fairs wonderfully with Sticky Web support, allowing it to easily OHKO Jolteon and Manectric with Flamethrower, and pick off a non-full HP Garchomp with Dragon Pulse. Charizard also appreciates a little bit of team support for Aerodactyl and Thundurus.
Versus teams with Tyranitar, you can often predict the switch into Tyranitar and attempt to fire off a Focus Blast without having to worry about the consequences of missing your attack. From then on, you can feel free to preserve Zard Y for any Ferrothorns that the rest of your team can't handle, or try again with Focus Blast with no regrets, if the first one missed or didn't kill because Ttar is Assault Vested or something. Sometimes you'll have a reason to stay in and risk the biscuit if Tyranitar runs Pursuit and you know he's going for it, but otherwise with this set, Charizard's threats and counters fall to just Blissey, Chansey, other special walls like Goodra and Florges, Thundurus and Zapdos who can't be slowed down with Sticky Web, and fast Scarfers with Rock attacks.
EVERYONE DIES TO THE ALMIGHTY FIRE
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Speed / 4 SpD/Def
Nature: Modest/Timid
Moveset:
Heatwave
Solarbeam
Dragon Pulse
Protect
Set Details: Unless your opponent has brought specific counters just for Charizard alone, they'll find themselves getting double OHKOs from Charizard's devastating Sub-Boosted Heatwave. Only pokemon with high special defense or a resistance to Fire can survive just one Heatwave. This set features the sheer power of Charizard's almighty destructive fiery power in doubles. This set is primarily meant for the VGC setting, however it works well in any Doubles setting for the same reasons. With Charizard simply on the field, way over more than half of the pokemon in this meta are threatened. Charizard can deal quickly with Azumarils and other water types before they can set up. A Modest Charizard Y will OHKO a Politoed with no special defense investment with Solarbeam. With common and powerful Doubles support strategies like Tailwind and Thunderwave, Charizard can out speed all its threats, OHKO Salamences, Greninjas and Manectrics. With a little Quick Guard or team support, it doesn't have to worry about those Choice Banded Talonflames.
Charizard in Doubles does have to worry about Mega Kangaskhan's powerful Return attack, Garchomp's, Ttar's and Aerodactyl's Rock Slides, and Choice Banded Talonflame, however with the right team support, it can easily be one of the most threatening pokemon in the entire meta.
I was having this internal discussion about the merits of Thunder Punch vs Earthquake, especially in the lights of the recent meta changes/possible changes.
The more I play, the more I see myself being stopped by Azumarills and damaged badly by Mandibuzz rather than the KS games with Aegislash and the few but very annoying encounters against Heatran. But this is also an argument about X's role in the team, from a sweeper to an early match wall breaker/hole blower so that another team member can breeze through easily.
In the case of Thunder Punch, at +1 it's a clean OHKO against offensive, adamant MGyara and Azumarill. Against Mandibuzz it also lets you void DD'n by first smacking it in the switch in or his foul misprediction, and then on the second finishing him off with an Outrage (might need some RNG luck). Speaking of Outrage, it's nearly always a OHKO on the washing machine (+1), 2HKO's most Heatran sets and does the same damage as EQ against Mega Tyranitar, how about that? You can have your cake and eat it too! The only unfortunate consequence of Outrage is the inevitable Fairy switch in, but that also leaves the opponent torn between letting CharX live another day or sacrificing his pokemon...
But this set does not allow it to become as flexible as it needs to be for a late game sweeper, so it becomes a question of how acceptable it is to have a Mega as an early match death machine for others to sweep.
Edit: I guess I can extend this thought by saying if we have TPwnch and Outrage, can we go recoiless (finally) and use Fire Punch instead of Flare Blitz? The main use of our fire slot aside from the haxy and infinitely joyable burn chance is to roast steels cause Mega Venu ain't caring about Fire. The Fairy dilemma is present yes but Sylveon is ded anyway after +! with either move, and you really shouldn't be letting a CharX sitting infront of a Clefable anyway so what is the point?
The more I play, the more I see myself being stopped by Azumarills and damaged badly by Mandibuzz rather than the KS games with Aegislash and the few but very annoying encounters against Heatran. But this is also an argument about X's role in the team, from a sweeper to an early match wall breaker/hole blower so that another team member can breeze through easily.
In the case of Thunder Punch, at +1 it's a clean OHKO against offensive, adamant MGyara and Azumarill. Against Mandibuzz it also lets you void DD'n by first smacking it in the switch in or his foul misprediction, and then on the second finishing him off with an Outrage (might need some RNG luck). Speaking of Outrage, it's nearly always a OHKO on the washing machine (+1), 2HKO's most Heatran sets and does the same damage as EQ against Mega Tyranitar, how about that? You can have your cake and eat it too! The only unfortunate consequence of Outrage is the inevitable Fairy switch in, but that also leaves the opponent torn between letting CharX live another day or sacrificing his pokemon...
But this set does not allow it to become as flexible as it needs to be for a late game sweeper, so it becomes a question of how acceptable it is to have a Mega as an early match death machine for others to sweep.
Edit: I guess I can extend this thought by saying if we have TPwnch and Outrage, can we go recoiless (finally) and use Fire Punch instead of Flare Blitz? The main use of our fire slot aside from the haxy and infinitely joyable burn chance is to roast steels cause Mega Venu ain't caring about Fire. The Fairy dilemma is present yes but Sylveon is ded anyway after +! with either move, and you really shouldn't be letting a CharX sitting infront of a Clefable anyway so what is the point?
Last edited:
For Zard X is Adamant or Jolly a better nature?
I thought that the extra speed would be preferred, but I see lots of sets with Adamant being posted.
I thought that the extra speed would be preferred, but I see lots of sets with Adamant being posted.
Adamant is much superior, since Jolly doesn't outspeed anything notable at +1 that Adamant can't. The extra power is much better.
When you approach the topic speed natures, it is best to focus on the relevant pokemon speed tiers.
For example, you are thinking about a base speed 100 mon that has Dragon Dance. After you solve the issue of whether or not you want it to be bulky and who are the relevant threats that you need to outspeed without any boosts (for example Breloom, etc.), think about the pokemon that you need to address after a boost.
Garchomp for example is base 102, you cannot outspeed it with a Jolly nature and the only way it can catch up to you is with a scarf which means Jolly again won't help you as you need 2 DDs with both natures to eliminate it.
Also for seeing the differences in OHKOs and 2HKOs, this Damage calculator is very helpful and you can also adjust EVs and fine tune there as well.
Last edited:
I read that a Tailwind + SD set for ZardX is a thing. Is it really? :O
I saw it mentioned in the viability thread, and tried searching around but found nothing notable. I've never encountered one on the ladder (granted I'm hovering in the 1700s), and it doesn't seem to be talked about much.
I saw it mentioned in the viability thread, and tried searching around but found nothing notable. I've never encountered one on the ladder (granted I'm hovering in the 1700s), and it doesn't seem to be talked about much.
The reason some people opt to run tailwind is that even if Zard X gets forced out the Pokemon you switch out to gets a nice speed boost. But IMO it is a terrible set because you are running two moves to do what you can do with two Dragon Dances. And you are forgoing Roost which can be very detrimental to Charizard's ability to live out to the end of the match.
Yeah that's why I was confused, since 2 Dragon Dances can accomplish the exact same thing without taking up 2 moveslots. The benefit seems so minor compared to Roost / coverage, but thanks!
1. This thread is great 2. Well this set is popular Heat wave / Air Slash / Dragon Pulse / Solar Beam For Y and Last of all
This Japan Pro battler battles me with Char Y with ths set
R e d @ Charizardite Y
Trait:Blaze/(M) Drought
EV'S :252 SPd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
-Heat wave
-Flame Charge
-Solar Beam
-Dragon Pulse
Well its obvious set up flame charge somewhere after that you're the fastest . And the JPN dude was the best predictor.
EDIT: Doesnt Air slash exist anymore?
Its seems that no one uses it but or moves like tailwind...
This Japan Pro battler battles me with Char Y with ths set
R e d @ Charizardite Y
Trait:Blaze/(M) Drought
EV'S :252 SPd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
-Heat wave
-Flame Charge
-Solar Beam
-Dragon Pulse
Well its obvious set up flame charge somewhere after that you're the fastest . And the JPN dude was the best predictor.
EDIT: Doesnt Air slash exist anymore?
Its seems that no one uses it but or moves like tailwind...
Last edited:
Whynaut Modest Nature for more Power? And doesn't Tailwind do the same thing?
Fire Blast over Heat Wave, Tailwind over Flame Charge and Modest Nature would make this a much better set
Dragon Pulse REALLY doesn't help with anything. I'd suggest running Earthquake or Focus Blast for Heatran.
EDIT: I would like to say, Mega Altaria is going to be a great counter to both forms of Charizard. That might hurt it.
Last edited:
It does prevent the Latis and Garchomp from getting a completely free switch-in and stops you from becoming Zard X setup bait, but you're probably better off relying on team support for dealing with them.
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 272-320 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed after SR)
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 190-224 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 272-320 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah but the 2hko is irrelevant since all of them should outspeed you and will force you out. So yeah I agree with your first statement, teammates should help against these pokes
Well it is too early to speculate on what Mega Altaria will do to OU and the Char forms in particular (other than being fkn awesome), but I'm going to say that not much is going to change.
CharY already has a problem with Dragon checks and most of the time relies on other teammates to handle them, so it shouldn't be any different here. CharX has the blessing of needing only 2 STAB moves to plow through the entire meta bar 2-3 pokemon, which is why many of its sets run 2 attacks. If it wants to use a third, and things like Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria start to become common problems, it can run a Steel move (Tough Claws boosted) as coverage.
SD Tailwind is fantastic because it can play well against both stall and offense. Playing a fast but frail team? Whip up a Tailwind and breeze through with Outrage - you don't need the +1 Atk to beat shit like Greninja with Adamant Tough Claws Outrage, and the speed boost will still be there if you're forced out unlike DD. Playing a bulky team? Set up a SD and crush their souls, as you don't need +1 Spe to outpace walls and since you boost your Atk twice as fast, they have half as many free turns to Toxic or TWave or pHaze you as opposed to DDance where there are still things that wall you at only +1, forcing you to give them a free turn as you go for your second Dance.
First, apologies for the necro.
Second, I thought of a Charizard X set that deals with almost all stall teams.
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk, 120 Spe, 136 HP
Nature: Adamant
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Roost
This set uses the almost never seen on Charizard SubPunch to break stall. It deals with SkarmChans well, 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Punch and OHKOing w/ Flare Blitz and OHKOing Chansey, while also 2HKOing Quagsire. Another Charizard counter, Rhyperior, gets 2HKOed by Focus Punch. Heatran is straight up OHKOed, while Mega Venusaur at its most physically defensive is 2HKOed by Flare Blitz. Not even most stall team's glue, Doublade, avoids a 2HKO, and Chesnaught and Tangrowth both die as well. There is AFAIK literally three pokemon that can be viably used on stall to counter it - Physically defensive Arcanine, Dragonite, and Salamence, all of whom are rare on a stall team. The best part, however, is that standard Zard X is countered by Quagsire or sometimes Heatran or MegaSaur, all of whom this set breezes through.
tl;dr SubPunch Charizard X = Stall dies.
Second, I thought of a Charizard X set that deals with almost all stall teams.
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk, 120 Spe, 136 HP
Nature: Adamant
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Roost
This set uses the almost never seen on Charizard SubPunch to break stall. It deals with SkarmChans well, 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Punch and OHKOing w/ Flare Blitz and OHKOing Chansey, while also 2HKOing Quagsire. Another Charizard counter, Rhyperior, gets 2HKOed by Focus Punch. Heatran is straight up OHKOed, while Mega Venusaur at its most physically defensive is 2HKOed by Flare Blitz. Not even most stall team's glue, Doublade, avoids a 2HKO, and Chesnaught and Tangrowth both die as well. There is AFAIK literally three pokemon that can be viably used on stall to counter it - Physically defensive Arcanine, Dragonite, and Salamence, all of whom are rare on a stall team. The best part, however, is that standard Zard X is countered by Quagsire or sometimes Heatran or MegaSaur, all of whom this set breezes through.
tl;dr SubPunch Charizard X = Stall dies.
- Status