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Big Lord of the Rings Mafia - Game Over! Forces of Sauron Win!
- Thread starter UncleSam
- Start date
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
Please. If you were actually onto me, you would have used one of those kills onto me rather than using your billy/Ullar checks onto me. I'd like to stress that you would not have even been in a scenario where the odds are most certainly in your favor if it wasn't for the work that I did for you. I'd like to stress that trying to kill half your team when you had the leftovers of a village remnants trying to hunt you down. They were certainly able to piece together you. You very likely would have killed at least one more of your orcs. You were ignoring the bigger threat that had been staring at you in the face.
I do not think I am grossly exaggerating on billy's behavior when you have been the one to completely inform me. You were the one that brought up that he had a tantrum during one of the nights things didn't go his way and he just banned UncleSam from your channel for it. In PM to me, you said that his kill on Celever wasn't so much wrong as it was "hasty," so you didn't actually disagree with the conclusion of it and you chose to just agree with him. His reliance on echochamber, which I feel should be completely banned from most mafia games (a channel where a bot checks each player's idle times on IRC to determine when they last said something/who were having convos), is your reliance on echochamber if you took his orders pretty easily like that.
I can say I put more time into this game than you as you said earlier Billy was your undisputed leader. You didn't do everything by yourself. I was doing 95% of the work since Day 3. You have been doing it since the night before I killed Billy. You argue you've put in substantial time, but I've put in more time.
One, I contend that you would have nowhere near been in a winning situation had I not intervened because you would still be busy killing the rest of your faction trying to find me. You would perpetually be suspecting me, but never actually do anything about it. I think it is completely ridiculous for you to automatically assume that you have the right to win when the path you were going to take would have ended up in a much rougher path than the alternative I gave. You are so much more pathetic for thinking you were actually in a position to win had I not done anything. Granted, with an inactive village like this one, you may have almost been able to get away with almost anything, but what I did guaranteed you a path to win.
Again, I am seriously annoyed with trying to respond to you, but here is what I would do tonight. Not hook anyone on the mafia tonight. I am telling you for certain that when I asked UncleSam what any other possible owner of the ring would get, they would get the same thing I do, but with one extra kill. The BPV does not disappear once the kills are used. I copypasted the flavor here earlier. The ring can be given to anyone, but not collected by anyone other than me/macle.
Suppose I am lynched
1/3/5 becomes 3/5.
Mafia use both kills on you.
3/3. One of these mafia will have the ring protection and another will have orc protection. There is a 33% chance that you succeed with this.
3/3. You lynch one of the ones that is protected. You lose the game. 66% chance.
2/3. You succeed! 33% chance.
2/2. 50/50 on whether or not you hit the one that has the ring protection.
2/2. You hit ring protection. Mafia uses kill #3 on villager and makes this 2-1, tying vote for them (gondor considered) and winning the game. 33% * 50%
1/2. You win by lasting long enough to stall out protection. 33% * 50%
This is preliminary math, but there is a 5/6 chance mafia wins. 1/6 chance you win.
Suppose mafia is lynched and I permanently hook macle as he can still hook me.
1/3/5 becomes 1/2/5.
Decision is in my hands but very unfavorable.
Kill villager. Mafia could kill villager. 50% * 50%
1/3/3
Kill villager. . Mafia could kill me. 50% * 50% Same scenario as the above, BUT they have their double kill rather than being to spend it early, making odds of village victory nonexistent. 1/4 loss
Kill mafia and it is successful. Mafia could kill villager. 50% *50% * 66% 1/6
1/2/4
Village lynches me: 2/4 with double kill available. Comes down to 50/50 on whether or not they hit the ring's LPV. Better odds than you currently have. 1/6 * 1/2 loss = 1/12. 1/6 * 1/2 * 1/2 win. 1/24 win.
Village lynches mafia and is not successful. I become kingmaker. 50/50. Kill mafia, village wins. Kill village, mafia wins. Idle. village wins. 1/6 * 1/2. 1/12 win.
Village lynches mafia and is successful. Game goes to me. 1/2/4 becomes 1/2/1 or 1/2/2, which is in mafia favor. None of these odds are wins for you. 1/6 * 1/2. 1/12 loss.
Kill mafia and hit the ring. This is the interesting part where you win. Regardless of what happens, they can only send 1 kill to perform on you each night and you know who everyone is. So starting with the lynch on me and then doing one-for-one trades. You just win out of numbers. Lynch me tomorrow, then lynch the mafia. 50% * 50%. Doesn't matter who mafia kill. You win. 1/4 chance you win tonight by lynching a mafia.
I am stopping calculations here as just that one scenario is enough and I am not going to consider scenarios where I don't hook macle as from my perspective, it would be too easy to give the mafia the rest of this game. this 1/4 chance that happens should you lynch a mafia tonight is much higher than 1/6, contrary to what some Americans understand about fractions
The only case to worry about would be me not hooking macle and getting 3 village deaths happen in one night. It did not happen the first time like I said it would, nor do I think it will happen the 2nd as the mafia have intended to backstab me, like they did already earlier. I would probably be more likely to kill one of them than for this possibliity to actually occur.
Bass does nothing to disprove this fact. My vote still stands.
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
TheSwagger I see you reading this thread. Are you going to vote?
If people who have not voted do not at least make a post saying they are paying attention and will vote, then I will sub you out in two hours and fifteen minutes (or 8 PM EDT). This is TheSwagger TheGottemer PokeguyNXB Mithril
Wayan Vistar
formerly Flyhn
I'm also paying attention, just have no clue who to lynch :/
[19:08:44] <~Forte> about aska i mean
[19:09:08] <~Forte> it is obviously true we will be in a bad spot if we are wrong but
[19:09:17] <~Forte> i cant see it being anyone other than aska... or YOU SNYPE
[19:09:24] <billymills> the thing is
[19:09:26] <&Andrew> !!!
[19:09:30] <billymills> if they know im hitting aska tonight
[19:09:35] <billymills> snype won't kill me tonight
[19:09:39] <billymills> that'd be near suicide
[19:09:50] <&Andrew> and i'd say fk it yolo
[19:09:56] <~Forte> i mention snype only in terms of which remaining orcs besides ipl
[19:10:00] <~Forte> could pull this off
This is from our channel, you were there. It is not a difficult deduction. ipl proved that he wasn't the traitor, so out of the remaining living orcs, it was obvious to both billy and I that it had to be you or aska in terms of both timezone (because gollum accidentally revealed himself to be in EST) and mafia experience. If we successfully killed aska, we would have still called you out and more or less reach the same point we are at today.
Also, this endgame has proven how legitimate my fear of you outing my team was, which is a point you still haven't addressed. The only reason your life is at risk right now is because you made a mistake last night.
billy ragequit twice due to arguments with UncleSam. The first time was because UncleSam told him to "use evidence" after the night we killed Celever when there is was in fact none. You acknowledged this yourself. The second time was because of this, on the night he used his orc chief veto iirc:
[21:55:49] <UncleSam> mills ragequit
[21:55:53] <Forte> did he
[21:56:01] <UncleSam> [23:51] <billymills> when the hell does the vote happen
[21:56:01] <UncleSam> [23:51] <billymills> [18:38:34] <billymills> [19:35:44] <UncleSam> end of this night
[21:56:01] <UncleSam> [23:51] <billymills> [18:37:40] <UncleSam> election happens next night
[21:56:01] <UncleSam> [23:51] <UncleSam> end of this night if you remove during the day
[21:56:01] <UncleSam> [23:52] <UncleSam> rofl
[21:56:01] <UncleSam> [23:52] <UncleSam> its as if the orc chieftain dies
[21:56:01] <Forte> he logged off right around when you came on
[21:56:05] <UncleSam> [23:52] <UncleSam> the moment you use the ability
[21:56:07] <UncleSam> [23:52] <billymills> ...
[21:56:09] <UncleSam> [23:52] <billymills> you fucking said
[21:56:11] <UncleSam> [23:52] <billymills> this night
[21:56:13] <UncleSam> [23:52] <billymills> in the previous convo
[21:56:15] <UncleSam> [23:52] <billymills> retard
[21:56:17] <UncleSam> [23:52] * billymills has quit (Quit: )
As for Celever it was hasty because billy based his decision on the fact that he was talking to LN (even though we both knew at the time that LN was gathering up Soldiers of Gondor due to his lynchpin theory). He was worried that LW and LN would not buy his claim of being hooked before using the all gondor BG, so he wanted to use his extra kill in case he would be lynched next. Of course, this did not happen, but to be fair against Celever, his other actions made him seem suspicious (avoiding the orc channel repeatedly, trying to contact Eagle4). Lastly, it is billy's role and his decision ultimately on how that kill is used. billy submitted the action and logged off before I came on to really have a discussion about it, but UncleSam gave me the option to change it. It didn't feel right for me to change it though because I didn't have a chance to discuss my disagreement with him. You can argue that I am being weak-willed here, but I'd rather avoid potential conflict with my own team over it.
This was in reference to the orc vote. Yes, billy's ragequits were inconvenient, but there were times where I was pretty mad about some of the decisions UncleSam has made regarding this game, and even argued with him about it. However, I am a very level headed person so I would never ragequit over something this. To claim that he is the only one having a tantrum here is also an example of the pot calling the kettle black since that is more or less your supposed reason for stabbing us.
Again, this is still a moot point because you are wolf. At best you have 1 partner to count on. This is always the case, so it doesn't make your circumstances special.
Good lord dude. The same can be said about you. Collaboration works both ways. We were actually the ones who made the initiative to contact you using B_T first, and we worked together because if we didn't we would both certainly lose. It is a 50/50 collaboration. No side deserves more credit than the other in this situation. von was too aggressive about lynching orcs, yet claimed to Ullar. His death has his fault. You also killed jumpluff/Yeti out of paranoia while knowing that village was in a commanding position. Your fault. Billy hastily killed Celever. Our fault. The village was winning, so we sent our outed teammate to initiate our collaboration. Everything afterwards was a mutual agreement between two parties.
First of all, posting that flavor doesn't prove anything since (1) compared to the log I posted, it is easy to fake, and (2) you still haven't explained your behavior in the log I posted, nor questioned its authenticity. I said that this would be an RNG, and you said it yourself that lynching you would make the most sense for the village. You are also wrong about the fact that we can pass the ring to someone else, meaning that it would be a 1/3 chance, not 1/6. The ring goes to orc chieftain, and to change orc chieftain, the current one must be killed first, ie the ring will lose its power to double kill anyway. Yes, I asked UncleSam about this since it wasn't mentioned in our results PM after attempting to kill you.
Your numbers are off. It should be 4/2 (village/mafia) if we killed you and you killed village since they would lynch someone besides macle today in your posed scenario.
I am a bit confused here. All they need to do is lynch macle and we lose our double kill, making it a village win. That's why I said earlier that killing you would be suicidal for us.
Again, your numbers are off here, it would be 4/2/1 if macle is lynched today or 4/1/1 if he isn't. That means for our double kill to be available, it would have to be 4/1, which is obviously a huge majority for the village. Hence, there is no reasonable path for either us except at least one of us killing a villager.
Not sure if I am at the right place in your analysis, but if you mean they lynch someone besides macle today, and then you kill + hook macle, then it would be 5/2 if we kill you, or 4/2/1 if we kill a villager. It is easy to see that this would be just you throwing the game to the village either way.
Sorry, but I just did. Since this is very tl;dr, allow me to summarize the flaws in Snype's analysis:
- He is wrong about the ring being passable. Even if that were correct, it is a moot point since he would just hook macle, preventing him from passing it. macle definitely has it right now.
- His numbers are off by 1 (in the scenario where you guys dont lynch macle), and if macle is lynched, he will survive but lose the double kill. As a result, we both have to kill villagers the next night, more or less.
Wayan Vistar
formerly Flyhn
So many wall posts... and none of them are helping me any. I still have no idea who to lynch... *sigh* guess I'll just not vote for now.
The reason these posts are walls are because there has been some off topic back and forth drvel between Snype and I over who deserves to win. If these posts are too intimidating, then I suggest reading the parts of our posts that actually talk about the ring as well as the endgame scenarios. These are usually at the end of our posts.
We have absolutely no proof that macle will lose the ring protection if he uses his 1 time kill. Lynching anyone other than a mafia is suicide for the village.
So let's figure out who we are lynching.
Personally, I'm pro lynching Bass....
So let's figure out who we are lynching.
Personally, I'm pro lynching Bass....
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
Almost everything that I have stated, I have sent in PM to Pidge and told him the truth about my role, the only thing he questioned was what the ring would actually do. I would not be so careless as to not consider what would happen for any circumstance in which I'd lose my final source of protection. Since Bass seems very intent on demonstrating logs to make himself seem more hardworking, here is one demonstrating my competence and for hilarity my pettiness and Bass' salt.
[04:38] <Forte> i seriously cant believe
[04:38] <Forte> From what I understand through asking uncle Sam, the ring on the mafia should go to their orc chieftain, who is currently macle.
[04:38] <Forte> did you really ask him that
01[04:38] <Andrew> yes
[04:38] <Forte> i cant believe he fucking told you that
01[04:39] <Andrew> i asked him
01[04:39] <Andrew> what would happen
01[04:39] <Andrew> if i lose the lynch
[04:39] <Forte> our second kill is now effectively useless
01[04:39] <Andrew> does it go to a mafia random?
01[04:39] <Andrew> good
01[04:39] <Andrew> that's what you get
01[04:39] <Andrew> for stabbing me.
This is boiling down to nothing more than a he-said/she-said deal, but why I think the villagers should trust my information more than the others off of practicality? I gave this information the night that they had tried to kill me. I'd make damn sure that the information I need to work with the village is accurate and should the mafia backstab me out of a 100% win, they would suffer. You could argue I would lie about it, but (subjective reason incoming) I'm tired with what I've had to put in so far and cannot be arsed to make up something that actually seems believable but isn't the complete truth, it's so much simpler to just give the truth. Bass is going to insist that should the mafia use their kill, they lose the killproof that goes with it. I insist otherwise asking how the ring works. Everyone itg dead or alive can read through the posts to know that I've been telling the truth all along and this is information I have told you at a time when it was technically uncertain/ a risk to share with the village. I understand it's a shitty argument to say that "everything else I said is truth, why would this important facet be a lie?" But if you want to think from it practically, I haven't lied about anything I said in that PM (the only thing I was wrong about was there being 3 village deaths and that was the mafia's fault for backstabbing me that there wasn't a 3rd) and I shared all the details with the village.
just lynch a fucking mafia. current vote is on bass because I know the ring can be given to anyone among the orcs and Bass has put in work to the game, I don't think he would give the ring to Upside and then sub in for another teammate later on and as long as macle is holding the ring, I hook them. He is just trying to give the facade off because as long as macle is alive, I have to hook him. It is more efficient for them to kill me off with the orc kill with the 2nd person and have the ringbearer kill a villager to spread it out among all people. I cannot cover everyone then as if I do not hook macle, my kill will get hooked, which is the only thing that could work in the village's favor during the night.
[04:38] <Forte> i seriously cant believe
[04:38] <Forte> From what I understand through asking uncle Sam, the ring on the mafia should go to their orc chieftain, who is currently macle.
[04:38] <Forte> did you really ask him that
01[04:38] <Andrew> yes
[04:38] <Forte> i cant believe he fucking told you that
01[04:39] <Andrew> i asked him
01[04:39] <Andrew> what would happen
01[04:39] <Andrew> if i lose the lynch
[04:39] <Forte> our second kill is now effectively useless
01[04:39] <Andrew> does it go to a mafia random?
01[04:39] <Andrew> good
01[04:39] <Andrew> that's what you get
01[04:39] <Andrew> for stabbing me.
This is boiling down to nothing more than a he-said/she-said deal, but why I think the villagers should trust my information more than the others off of practicality? I gave this information the night that they had tried to kill me. I'd make damn sure that the information I need to work with the village is accurate and should the mafia backstab me out of a 100% win, they would suffer. You could argue I would lie about it, but (subjective reason incoming) I'm tired with what I've had to put in so far and cannot be arsed to make up something that actually seems believable but isn't the complete truth, it's so much simpler to just give the truth. Bass is going to insist that should the mafia use their kill, they lose the killproof that goes with it. I insist otherwise asking how the ring works. Everyone itg dead or alive can read through the posts to know that I've been telling the truth all along and this is information I have told you at a time when it was technically uncertain/ a risk to share with the village. I understand it's a shitty argument to say that "everything else I said is truth, why would this important facet be a lie?" But if you want to think from it practically, I haven't lied about anything I said in that PM (the only thing I was wrong about was there being 3 village deaths and that was the mafia's fault for backstabbing me that there wasn't a 3rd) and I shared all the details with the village.
just lynch a fucking mafia. current vote is on bass because I know the ring can be given to anyone among the orcs and Bass has put in work to the game, I don't think he would give the ring to Upside and then sub in for another teammate later on and as long as macle is holding the ring, I hook them. He is just trying to give the facade off because as long as macle is alive, I have to hook him. It is more efficient for them to kill me off with the orc kill with the 2nd person and have the ringbearer kill a villager to spread it out among all people. I cannot cover everyone then as if I do not hook macle, my kill will get hooked, which is the only thing that could work in the village's favor during the night.
How so? My statement is equally as likely to be true as Snype's at face value. Even if it wasn't Snype said so himself that it would give you less than a 50% chance of winning. That's still something though! Even then, I don't see how you could think Snype is the one that is being honest based on the log I posted. Please read it, seriously.
Vote Bass
Steven Snype,
We already are aware of the fact that US told you about the orc chieftain being the one to get the ring if we tried to kill you. I won't dispute that. What I am disputing is that he also told you what the ring does. Given that it gave you three kills, it is easy to guess that it also gave us one more kill. The fact that you also claimed that it is passable leads to me to believe that UncleSam couldn't have possibly told you. I mean, he didn't tell us what it did for you when you got it, if we did I wouldn't have been so pissed off about you surviving our kill earlier.
We already are aware of the fact that US told you about the orc chieftain being the one to get the ring if we tried to kill you. I won't dispute that. What I am disputing is that he also told you what the ring does. Given that it gave you three kills, it is easy to guess that it also gave us one more kill. The fact that you also claimed that it is passable leads to me to believe that UncleSam couldn't have possibly told you. I mean, he didn't tell us what it did for you when you got it, if we did I wouldn't have been so pissed off about you surviving our kill earlier.
Also, let's review the other evidence I have to suggest that Snype is the likely liar here.
Exhibit A
In this log he acknowledges that killing him was the logical fucking choice for village if we idled and he killed one of us. He then went on to threaten killing us knowing this in hopes that we would just kill a villager, even though I said over and over again that I would idle.
Exhibit A
[19:02:45] <Forte> [19:02:22] <Forte> im just curious
[19:02:45] <Forte> [19:02:36] <Forte> about how you expect this game to play out
[19:03:38] <Andrew> hm?
[19:03:52] <Forte> like
[19:03:58] <Forte> are you seriously intending to draw this game out
[19:04:01] <Forte> to kingmaker?
[19:04:27] <Andrew> yeah
[19:05:02] <Forte> because as you know the alternative is rng
[19:05:09] <Forte> lol
[19:05:15] <Forte> it is
[19:05:19] <Forte> "pick your poison"
[19:06:59] <Andrew> what do you think
[19:07:01] <Andrew> you will do tonight?
[19:07:29] <Forte> dont know
[19:07:35] <Forte> i honestly think
[19:07:39] <Andrew> you can either kill me or any of the villagers
[19:07:40] <Forte> the outcome will be the same
[19:07:46] <Forte> ie
[19:07:52] <Forte> well if we kill you
[19:07:55] <Forte> and then you kill one of us
[19:07:56] <Forte> we lose
[19:07:59] <Andrew> nah
[19:08:00] <Andrew> you RNG it out
[19:08:13] <Andrew> because macle kill
[19:08:16] <Andrew> happens
[19:08:20] <Forte> we wont have macle kill
[19:08:24] <Forte> because he will just get lynched
[19:08:31] <Forte> removing the ring
[19:08:47] <Forte> that would mean we would have no night kill
[19:09:12] <Andrew> you have your own kill
[19:09:13] <Andrew> don't you?
[19:09:18] <Forte> orc kill
[19:09:23] <Forte> will be on cooldown after tonight
[19:09:30] <Forte> unless
[19:09:41] <Forte> using it on you last night didnt count
[19:09:46] <Andrew> ofc it counts
[19:09:50] <Andrew> you broke my dpv
[19:09:54] <Forte> so ok
[19:10:02] <Forte> it will def be on cooldown
[19:10:06] <Forte> unless we idle
[19:10:43] <Forte> however im wondering if what you do will make a differenced
[19:10:47] <Forte> you kill one of us
[19:10:48] <Forte> we lynch village
[19:10:51] <Forte> you kill a village
[19:10:53] <Forte> you lynch one of us
[19:10:56] <Andrew> if i kill one of you i insta lose
[19:11:06] <Andrew> we do not outvote the village.
[19:11:37] <Andrew> 3 of you + me
[19:11:39] <Andrew> = 4.5
[19:12:00] <Forte> that would only be the case if we also idle
[19:12:03] <Andrew> and this is assuming
[19:12:05] <Andrew> i end up killing
[19:12:07] <Andrew> hwoever you send to hook
[19:12:11] <Andrew> kill*
[19:12:19] <Forte> lol
[19:12:25] <Andrew> or you idle
[19:12:26] <Forte> so you are worried about that
[19:12:31] <Andrew> yes
[19:12:32] <Andrew> i am
[19:12:35] <Forte> well
[19:12:37] <Forte> imo
[19:12:47] <Forte> we wouldnt have control of the lynch
[19:12:55] <Forte> but im not sure if the village would lynch you necessarily
[19:13:00] <Andrew> they would
[19:13:04] <Andrew> i'm the one with the biggest vote threat
[19:13:07] <Andrew> and have an extra kill
[19:13:13] <Andrew> in their eyes
[19:13:24] <Forte> you told them that macle has an extra kill though
[19:13:27] <Forte> so in that scenario
[19:13:33] <Forte> we would have 2 kills
[19:13:41] <Forte> bringing it to 3/3
[19:13:46] <Forte> then it is rng
[19:13:48] <Forte> lol
[19:13:53] <Forte> my point is
[19:13:59] <Forte> if village offs you they still have to contend with that
[19:14:05] <Forte> well
[19:14:08] <Forte> maybe that is what they want
[19:14:10] <Forte> idk
[19:15:17] <Forte> of course i wouldnt encourage you to kill us!
[19:15:42] <Forte> or you could kill macle to remove the ring from the equation
[19:15:46] <Forte> you have a lot of options
[19:15:54] <Andrew> but is macle the one
[19:15:57] <Andrew> that's protected?
[19:16:01] <Forte> by the ring?
[19:16:06] <Andrew> no
[19:16:07] <Andrew> orc protection
[19:16:10] <Andrew> silly
[19:16:15] <Forte> perhaps!
[19:16:21] <Andrew> and you're not gonna tell me that
[19:16:23] <Andrew> because you do'nt trust me
[19:16:24] <Forte> duh
[19:16:28] <Andrew> and i'm tired of your sense of distrust
[19:16:30] <Andrew> so i'm going to kill one of you
[19:16:36] <Andrew> forcing you to kill a villager
[19:16:56] <Andrew> idgf if it's rational or not i'm tired of this
[19:17:05] <Andrew> but i'm the kingmaker
[19:17:10] <Andrew> currently
[19:17:58] <Forte> if you are tired of this then you would just finish off the village and end the game
[19:18:34] <Andrew> nah i'd rather punish you
[19:20:22] <Forte> ok but
[19:20:30] <Forte> idk about you but i still want to win
[19:20:35] <Forte> does your resolve match mine?
[19:21:09] <Forte> judging by how you are acting i guess not
[19:21:57] <Forte> anyway it's up to you
[19:22:24] <Andrew> i have put in enough effort that i wanted to to win this game
[19:22:27] <Andrew> and you are merely being difficult
[19:22:30] <Andrew> to make a choice
[19:22:33] <Andrew> encouraging me to rand
[19:22:38] <Andrew> and i'm tired of playing guessing games
[19:22:44] <Forte> guessing games?
[19:22:46] <Andrew> i've already been correct with sending soviet
[19:22:50] <Andrew> telling you to kill rey
[19:22:52] <Andrew> and xenu
[19:23:09] <Forte> those were totally rand lol
[19:23:10] <Forte> come on
[19:23:17] <Andrew> nah
[19:23:19] <Andrew> i'm done
[19:23:21] <Forte> ...
[19:23:23] <Andrew> and i'm tired
[19:23:31] <Forte> i dont get how im being difficult
[19:23:34] <Forte> what do you want from me
[19:23:35] <Forte> or expect
[19:23:41] <Andrew> honesty
[19:23:45] <Andrew> if you actually think you deserve the win
[19:23:48] <Andrew> and some level of trust
[19:23:54] <Andrew> because you can't win by yourself
[19:24:06] <Forte> i think i deserve to win
[19:24:34] <Forte> what do you want me to be honest about
[19:24:41] <Forte> i literally told you
[19:24:50] <Forte> that you might not lose if you kill one of us
[19:25:11] <Forte> having you do that though is not in my interest regardless
[19:25:21] <Forte> i was being honest about that
[19:29:36] <Andrew> you're still being difficult
[19:29:42] <Forte> what am i being difficult about
[19:29:43] <Andrew> as far as cooperation goes
[19:29:54] <Forte> because our team doesnt trsut you 100%
[19:29:55] <Forte> ?
[19:29:56] <Andrew> one: you're not telling me who the protection is being used on
[19:30:00] <Andrew> tough
[19:30:02] <Andrew> shit
[19:30:12] <Andrew> i am in a situation
[19:30:13] <Andrew> where
[19:30:18] <Andrew> each "best move" i have
[19:30:20] <Andrew> in a scenario
[19:30:23] <Forte> well then
[19:30:25] <Andrew> coresponds to worst move scenario
[19:30:27] <Andrew> based on your move
[19:30:31] <Forte> if you are so worried about hitting who we protect by mistake
[19:30:38] <Forte> then you might as well not even try!
[19:30:42] <Forte> because
[19:30:43] <Andrew> nah
[19:30:47] <Andrew> i'd rather make you lose
[19:30:50] <Andrew> as punishment
[19:30:59] <Forte> the numbers would be the same
[19:31:02] <Forte> then again
[19:31:08] <Forte> in all the painstaking analysis this morning
[19:31:16] <Forte> i didnt bother accounting for you just blowing up on us
[19:31:20] <Forte> over such a petty reason
[19:32:19] <Forte> even if you hit someone who is protected by orc protect
[19:32:21] <Forte> it wont matter
[19:32:23] <Forte> lets see
[19:32:31] <Forte> it will be 5/4/1
[19:32:35] <Forte> assuming we idle
[19:32:39] <Forte> if not, 4/4/1
[19:33:00] <Forte> then you lynch one of us or go for macle
[19:33:35] <Forte> you'd probably do the latter so we dont kill you
[19:33:51] <Forte> then you kill a villager, 3/4/1
[19:34:05] <Forte> or kill one of us if you are afraid of orc protect
[19:34:10] <Forte> wait not
[19:34:19] <Forte> if you did that then village has control of the lynch
[19:34:30] <Forte> i guess what you are afraid of
[19:34:42] <Forte> is failing to lynch one of us later on due to orc protect
[19:40:46] <Forte> you get the point though
[19:42:27] <Andrew> no
[19:42:33] <Andrew> i am afraid of the possibility
[19:42:34] <Andrew> where i idle
[19:42:38] <Andrew> and you end up killing me instead
[19:42:51] <Andrew> because i don't think i cna trust your word
[19:43:01] <Andrew> and rather than idle and allow that possibility i must try to kill you
[19:43:07] <Andrew> to deter you from killing me.
[19:43:49] <Andrew> if you end up killing a village while i kill one of you, that's fine with me
[19:45:16] <Forte> well in that case i will tell you exactly what we are doing
[19:45:19] <Forte> or at least
[19:45:22] <Forte> will most likely do
[19:45:28] <Forte> which is
[19:45:29] <Forte> idling
[19:45:47] <Forte> we are going to leave it in your hands
[19:45:57] <Andrew> so i'll kill one of you then
[19:46:01] <Andrew> because i'd rather have you kill a villager.
[19:46:06] <Forte> lol
[19:46:30] <Forte> well i mean
[19:46:34] <Forte> you wont know until after the fact
[19:46:49] <Andrew> 33% chance worst-case scenario
[19:46:50] <Andrew> 100% chance
[19:46:52] <Andrew> best case.
[19:47:02] <Forte> how does that work
[19:47:11] <Andrew> macle is the one tha'ts protected
[19:47:15] <Andrew> none of the 3 of you are.
[19:47:22] <Andrew> er sorry
[19:47:24] <Andrew> that math is off
[19:47:31] <Andrew> i didn't account for who is actually performing the kill
[19:47:34] <Forte> 100+33 > 100 noob
[19:47:39] <Andrew> 50% chance is absolute worst case scenario
[19:47:47] <Andrew> 33% is best case scenario.
[19:48:02] <Andrew> 50% chance ensures that your kill goes off, assuming you trust me which i don't think you do
[19:48:07] <Andrew> about who i will say i will not kill.
[19:48:20] <Forte> "our kill goes off"
[19:48:20] <Andrew> so you send that person to perform the kill tonight.
[19:48:25] <Forte> didnt i just say we will likely idle?
[19:48:30] <Forte> isnt it you not trusting me?
[19:48:37] <Andrew> this is the guessing game that i'm honestly tired of playing
[19:48:45] <Forte> too bad
[19:48:54] <Forte> by design
[19:49:08] <Forte> this game has become a matter of guessing
[19:49:13] <Forte> though quite frankly
[19:49:18] <Forte> no matter what happens
[19:49:25] <Forte> there are only two outcomes
[19:49:32] <Forte> we kill you and roll the dice
[19:49:36] <Forte> or the game converges to kingmaker
[19:49:47] <Forte> i merely point this out because
[19:49:52] <Forte> assuming we dont kill you
[19:50:08] <Forte> whatever else you do will likely converge to the kingmaker scenari
[19:50:08] <Forte> o
[19:50:34] <Forte> only difference being that misfiring on the guy we protect would make that scenario converge more slowly
[19:50:40] <Forte> but it will still happen
[19:50:54] <Forte> that was my entire purpose for talking to you right now
[19:50:59] <Forte> because im not sure if you realized that
[19:51:06] <Andrew> which kingmaker scenario
[19:51:07] <Andrew> are you talking about?
[19:51:14] <Forte> ie
[19:51:19] <Forte> the numbers get really low
[19:51:20] <Andrew> me being kingmaker
[19:51:21] <Andrew> or them?
[19:51:26] <Forte> it depends slightly
[19:51:31] <Forte> lets say it is 1/2/1
[19:51:45] <Forte> if we kill you and you kill us
[19:51:48] <Forte> village wins
[19:51:58] <Forte> if you kill village, we win
[19:52:23] <Forte> the other possibility is 2/1/1
[19:52:26] <Andrew> if it is 1/2/1 it goes to village kingmaker scenario.
[19:52:34] <Forte> im referring to at night
[19:52:38] <Andrew> i'm talking wolf/mafia/village
[19:52:39] <Andrew> yes
[19:52:42] <Andrew> it goes to vilage kingmaker
[19:52:44] <Andrew> i hook one of you
[19:52:47] <Andrew> kill the other.
[19:52:49] <Andrew> 1/1/1
[19:52:52] <Andrew> village kingmaker.
[19:52:58] <Forte> point is
[19:53:08] <Forte> someone ends up being kingmaker
[19:53:20] <Andrew> and right now that's me
[19:53:22] <Forte> it is inevitable because
[19:53:25] <Andrew> and i don't want to be kingmaker
[19:53:33] <Forte> everyone knows everything
[19:53:34] <Forte> ok
[19:53:35] <Forte> i get that
[19:53:45] <Forte> the point is though that someone has to be kingmaker
[19:53:50] <Forte> you cannot win any other way
[19:53:57] <Andrew> oh i realized that
[19:54:00] <Forte> so
[19:54:01] <Andrew> a long tiem ago
[19:54:11] <Forte> any scenario that doesnt involve us killing you
[19:54:13] <Forte> will converge to that
[19:54:15] <Forte> no matter what.
[19:54:23] <Andrew> yup
[19:54:26] <Andrew> so i have to make it so
[19:54:30] <Andrew> any scenario where you do kill me
[19:54:33] <Andrew> becomes a shitty dice roll for you
[19:54:48] <Forte> surprise! every scenario that involves us killing you is either a dice roll
[19:54:50] <Forte> or a flat out loss
[19:55:19] <Andrew> i had a 100% win chance too
[19:55:19] <Andrew> to win
[19:55:19] <Forte> we wont kill you because there is a high enough chance that a flat out loss could happen
[19:55:21] <Andrew> and then you killed me
[19:55:31] <Andrew> so i don't want you to win
[19:55:33] <Andrew> anymore.
[19:55:52] <Forte> are you encouraging me to kill you right now?
[19:56:01] <Forte> that would certainly help your cause
[19:56:31] <Andrew> do you want to risk the dice roll?
[19:57:00] <Andrew> after all the effort you've put into it?
[19:57:05] <Forte> of course not
[19:57:06] <Forte> but
[19:57:09] <Forte> i have no choice
[19:57:13] <Forte> just as you have no choice
[19:57:18] <Forte> of forcing a kingmaker
[19:57:20] <Forte> they both suck
[19:57:27] <Forte> but because of the way this game was designed
[19:57:28] <Andrew> i'm a wolf
[19:57:29] <Forte> that is how it is
[19:57:35] <Andrew> i always have to force a kingmaker
[19:57:38] <Forte> no
[19:57:44] <Forte> there is a huge difference between this game
[19:57:46] <Forte> and the wolf in other games
[19:57:55] <Forte> the wolf never knows 2/3 of the entire mafia
[19:57:58] <Forte> even in mafia mafia 2
[19:58:02] <Forte> the wolf didnt know who the mafia were
[19:58:11] <Forte> if the wolf stays hidden
[19:58:12] <Andrew> in the end-game scenario
[19:58:13] <Andrew> though
[19:58:15] <Forte> he is not kingmaker
[19:58:17] <Andrew> the wolf is undoubtedly outed
[19:58:21] <Forte> but because you were a mole
[19:58:24] <Forte> you had to out yourself
[19:58:24] <Forte> lol
[19:58:32] <Forte> that sounds ironic but it is true
[19:58:37] <Andrew> nah i had to out myself
[19:58:37] <Andrew> because
[19:58:43] <Andrew> of the threat of my own survival
[19:58:53] <Andrew> i evne used my own tools to help a secure success towards us winning
[19:58:57] <Andrew> and then you try to backstab me?
[19:59:05] <Andrew> that's p awful teamwork
[19:59:11] <Forte> you backstabbed first
[19:59:14] <Forte> for fuck sake
[19:59:19] <Andrew> no
[19:59:20] <Andrew> you did
[19:59:22] <Forte> im not going to count billy's chief shiit
[19:59:23] <Andrew> by removing me from power
[19:59:25] <Andrew> i count it
[19:59:27] <Forte> because that is completely irrelevant
[19:59:29] <Andrew> because it's something that the mafia did
[19:59:31] <Forte> it. did. nothing.
[19:59:41] <Andrew> it told me that you don't trust me at all
[19:59:43] <Andrew> which is good enough
[19:59:44] <Andrew> for backstabbing
[19:59:52] <Forte> your logic is twisted
[19:59:54] <Forte> dude
[19:59:59] <Andrew> i punished billy
[19:59:59] <Forte> if you want us to win
[20:00:03] <Forte> genuinely
[20:00:09] <Andrew> because of his difficult demeanor this entire game
[20:00:09] <Forte> then whether we fully trust you or not
[20:00:12] <Forte> is irrelevant
[20:00:16] <Andrew> and his overall hostility towards the traitor
[20:00:20] <Andrew> how much you claimed he ragequit
[20:00:21] <Forte> get that through your thick skull
[20:00:32] <Andrew> it's a nobrainer to kill billy
[20:00:34] <Forte> billy's last ragequit wasnt about you
[20:00:39] <Forte> it was because of UncleSam
[20:00:47] <Forte> actually
[20:00:51] <Forte> they were 100% due to UncleSam
[20:01:16] <Forte> the first time was because UncleSam told him to "use evidence" to find the traitor when there was practically none
[20:01:26] <Andrew> if there's a shitty person to deal with that cannot be controlled, you eliminate him to make the rest of negotiations easier.
[20:01:28] <Forte> the second one was due to UncleSam saying something contradictory
[20:01:37] <Forte> regarding his orc chief veto
[20:02:21] <Forte> billy wasn't that shitty to deal with
[20:02:34] <Forte> he just didnt fully trust you
[20:02:39] <Forte> like any rational person would
[20:02:45] <Forte> UncleSam gave him that role for a reason
[20:02:50] <Forte> even though
[20:02:54] <Forte> i ended up being a waste anyway
[20:02:54] No such nick/channel
[20:02:55] <Forte> ...
[20:02:56] No such nick/channel
[20:06:44] <Forte> have you calmed down?
[20:19:00] <Forte> well whatever the case we are def idling tonight
[20:19:08] <Forte> the rest is up to you man!
[19:02:45] <Forte> [19:02:36] <Forte> about how you expect this game to play out
[19:03:38] <Andrew> hm?
[19:03:52] <Forte> like
[19:03:58] <Forte> are you seriously intending to draw this game out
[19:04:01] <Forte> to kingmaker?
[19:04:27] <Andrew> yeah
[19:05:02] <Forte> because as you know the alternative is rng
[19:05:09] <Forte> lol
[19:05:15] <Forte> it is
[19:05:19] <Forte> "pick your poison"
[19:06:59] <Andrew> what do you think
[19:07:01] <Andrew> you will do tonight?
[19:07:29] <Forte> dont know
[19:07:35] <Forte> i honestly think
[19:07:39] <Andrew> you can either kill me or any of the villagers
[19:07:40] <Forte> the outcome will be the same
[19:07:46] <Forte> ie
[19:07:52] <Forte> well if we kill you
[19:07:55] <Forte> and then you kill one of us
[19:07:56] <Forte> we lose
[19:07:59] <Andrew> nah
[19:08:00] <Andrew> you RNG it out
[19:08:13] <Andrew> because macle kill
[19:08:16] <Andrew> happens
[19:08:20] <Forte> we wont have macle kill
[19:08:24] <Forte> because he will just get lynched
[19:08:31] <Forte> removing the ring
[19:08:47] <Forte> that would mean we would have no night kill
[19:09:12] <Andrew> you have your own kill
[19:09:13] <Andrew> don't you?
[19:09:18] <Forte> orc kill
[19:09:23] <Forte> will be on cooldown after tonight
[19:09:30] <Forte> unless
[19:09:41] <Forte> using it on you last night didnt count
[19:09:46] <Andrew> ofc it counts
[19:09:50] <Andrew> you broke my dpv
[19:09:54] <Forte> so ok
[19:10:02] <Forte> it will def be on cooldown
[19:10:06] <Forte> unless we idle
[19:10:43] <Forte> however im wondering if what you do will make a differenced
[19:10:47] <Forte> you kill one of us
[19:10:48] <Forte> we lynch village
[19:10:51] <Forte> you kill a village
[19:10:53] <Forte> you lynch one of us
[19:10:56] <Andrew> if i kill one of you i insta lose
[19:11:06] <Andrew> we do not outvote the village.
[19:11:37] <Andrew> 3 of you + me
[19:11:39] <Andrew> = 4.5
[19:12:00] <Forte> that would only be the case if we also idle
[19:12:03] <Andrew> and this is assuming
[19:12:05] <Andrew> i end up killing
[19:12:07] <Andrew> hwoever you send to hook
[19:12:11] <Andrew> kill*
[19:12:19] <Forte> lol
[19:12:25] <Andrew> or you idle
[19:12:26] <Forte> so you are worried about that
[19:12:31] <Andrew> yes
[19:12:32] <Andrew> i am
[19:12:35] <Forte> well
[19:12:37] <Forte> imo
[19:12:47] <Forte> we wouldnt have control of the lynch
[19:12:55] <Forte> but im not sure if the village would lynch you necessarily
[19:13:00] <Andrew> they would
[19:13:04] <Andrew> i'm the one with the biggest vote threat
[19:13:07] <Andrew> and have an extra kill
[19:13:13] <Andrew> in their eyes
[19:13:24] <Forte> you told them that macle has an extra kill though
[19:13:27] <Forte> so in that scenario
[19:13:33] <Forte> we would have 2 kills
[19:13:41] <Forte> bringing it to 3/3
[19:13:46] <Forte> then it is rng
[19:13:48] <Forte> lol
[19:13:53] <Forte> my point is
[19:13:59] <Forte> if village offs you they still have to contend with that
[19:14:05] <Forte> well
[19:14:08] <Forte> maybe that is what they want
[19:14:10] <Forte> idk
[19:15:17] <Forte> of course i wouldnt encourage you to kill us!
[19:15:42] <Forte> or you could kill macle to remove the ring from the equation
[19:15:46] <Forte> you have a lot of options
[19:15:54] <Andrew> but is macle the one
[19:15:57] <Andrew> that's protected?
[19:16:01] <Forte> by the ring?
[19:16:06] <Andrew> no
[19:16:07] <Andrew> orc protection
[19:16:10] <Andrew> silly
[19:16:15] <Forte> perhaps!
[19:16:21] <Andrew> and you're not gonna tell me that
[19:16:23] <Andrew> because you do'nt trust me
[19:16:24] <Forte> duh
[19:16:28] <Andrew> and i'm tired of your sense of distrust
[19:16:30] <Andrew> so i'm going to kill one of you
[19:16:36] <Andrew> forcing you to kill a villager
[19:16:56] <Andrew> idgf if it's rational or not i'm tired of this
[19:17:05] <Andrew> but i'm the kingmaker
[19:17:10] <Andrew> currently
[19:17:58] <Forte> if you are tired of this then you would just finish off the village and end the game
[19:18:34] <Andrew> nah i'd rather punish you
[19:20:22] <Forte> ok but
[19:20:30] <Forte> idk about you but i still want to win
[19:20:35] <Forte> does your resolve match mine?
[19:21:09] <Forte> judging by how you are acting i guess not
[19:21:57] <Forte> anyway it's up to you
[19:22:24] <Andrew> i have put in enough effort that i wanted to to win this game
[19:22:27] <Andrew> and you are merely being difficult
[19:22:30] <Andrew> to make a choice
[19:22:33] <Andrew> encouraging me to rand
[19:22:38] <Andrew> and i'm tired of playing guessing games
[19:22:44] <Forte> guessing games?
[19:22:46] <Andrew> i've already been correct with sending soviet
[19:22:50] <Andrew> telling you to kill rey
[19:22:52] <Andrew> and xenu
[19:23:09] <Forte> those were totally rand lol
[19:23:10] <Forte> come on
[19:23:17] <Andrew> nah
[19:23:19] <Andrew> i'm done
[19:23:21] <Forte> ...
[19:23:23] <Andrew> and i'm tired
[19:23:31] <Forte> i dont get how im being difficult
[19:23:34] <Forte> what do you want from me
[19:23:35] <Forte> or expect
[19:23:41] <Andrew> honesty
[19:23:45] <Andrew> if you actually think you deserve the win
[19:23:48] <Andrew> and some level of trust
[19:23:54] <Andrew> because you can't win by yourself
[19:24:06] <Forte> i think i deserve to win
[19:24:34] <Forte> what do you want me to be honest about
[19:24:41] <Forte> i literally told you
[19:24:50] <Forte> that you might not lose if you kill one of us
[19:25:11] <Forte> having you do that though is not in my interest regardless
[19:25:21] <Forte> i was being honest about that
[19:29:36] <Andrew> you're still being difficult
[19:29:42] <Forte> what am i being difficult about
[19:29:43] <Andrew> as far as cooperation goes
[19:29:54] <Forte> because our team doesnt trsut you 100%
[19:29:55] <Forte> ?
[19:29:56] <Andrew> one: you're not telling me who the protection is being used on
[19:30:00] <Andrew> tough
[19:30:02] <Andrew> shit
[19:30:12] <Andrew> i am in a situation
[19:30:13] <Andrew> where
[19:30:18] <Andrew> each "best move" i have
[19:30:20] <Andrew> in a scenario
[19:30:23] <Forte> well then
[19:30:25] <Andrew> coresponds to worst move scenario
[19:30:27] <Andrew> based on your move
[19:30:31] <Forte> if you are so worried about hitting who we protect by mistake
[19:30:38] <Forte> then you might as well not even try!
[19:30:42] <Forte> because
[19:30:43] <Andrew> nah
[19:30:47] <Andrew> i'd rather make you lose
[19:30:50] <Andrew> as punishment
[19:30:59] <Forte> the numbers would be the same
[19:31:02] <Forte> then again
[19:31:08] <Forte> in all the painstaking analysis this morning
[19:31:16] <Forte> i didnt bother accounting for you just blowing up on us
[19:31:20] <Forte> over such a petty reason
[19:32:19] <Forte> even if you hit someone who is protected by orc protect
[19:32:21] <Forte> it wont matter
[19:32:23] <Forte> lets see
[19:32:31] <Forte> it will be 5/4/1
[19:32:35] <Forte> assuming we idle
[19:32:39] <Forte> if not, 4/4/1
[19:33:00] <Forte> then you lynch one of us or go for macle
[19:33:35] <Forte> you'd probably do the latter so we dont kill you
[19:33:51] <Forte> then you kill a villager, 3/4/1
[19:34:05] <Forte> or kill one of us if you are afraid of orc protect
[19:34:10] <Forte> wait not
[19:34:19] <Forte> if you did that then village has control of the lynch
[19:34:30] <Forte> i guess what you are afraid of
[19:34:42] <Forte> is failing to lynch one of us later on due to orc protect
[19:40:46] <Forte> you get the point though
[19:42:27] <Andrew> no
[19:42:33] <Andrew> i am afraid of the possibility
[19:42:34] <Andrew> where i idle
[19:42:38] <Andrew> and you end up killing me instead
[19:42:51] <Andrew> because i don't think i cna trust your word
[19:43:01] <Andrew> and rather than idle and allow that possibility i must try to kill you
[19:43:07] <Andrew> to deter you from killing me.
[19:43:49] <Andrew> if you end up killing a village while i kill one of you, that's fine with me
[19:45:16] <Forte> well in that case i will tell you exactly what we are doing
[19:45:19] <Forte> or at least
[19:45:22] <Forte> will most likely do
[19:45:28] <Forte> which is
[19:45:29] <Forte> idling
[19:45:47] <Forte> we are going to leave it in your hands
[19:45:57] <Andrew> so i'll kill one of you then
[19:46:01] <Andrew> because i'd rather have you kill a villager.
[19:46:06] <Forte> lol
[19:46:30] <Forte> well i mean
[19:46:34] <Forte> you wont know until after the fact
[19:46:49] <Andrew> 33% chance worst-case scenario
[19:46:50] <Andrew> 100% chance
[19:46:52] <Andrew> best case.
[19:47:02] <Forte> how does that work
[19:47:11] <Andrew> macle is the one tha'ts protected
[19:47:15] <Andrew> none of the 3 of you are.
[19:47:22] <Andrew> er sorry
[19:47:24] <Andrew> that math is off
[19:47:31] <Andrew> i didn't account for who is actually performing the kill
[19:47:34] <Forte> 100+33 > 100 noob
[19:47:39] <Andrew> 50% chance is absolute worst case scenario
[19:47:47] <Andrew> 33% is best case scenario.
[19:48:02] <Andrew> 50% chance ensures that your kill goes off, assuming you trust me which i don't think you do
[19:48:07] <Andrew> about who i will say i will not kill.
[19:48:20] <Forte> "our kill goes off"
[19:48:20] <Andrew> so you send that person to perform the kill tonight.
[19:48:25] <Forte> didnt i just say we will likely idle?
[19:48:30] <Forte> isnt it you not trusting me?
[19:48:37] <Andrew> this is the guessing game that i'm honestly tired of playing
[19:48:45] <Forte> too bad
[19:48:54] <Forte> by design
[19:49:08] <Forte> this game has become a matter of guessing
[19:49:13] <Forte> though quite frankly
[19:49:18] <Forte> no matter what happens
[19:49:25] <Forte> there are only two outcomes
[19:49:32] <Forte> we kill you and roll the dice
[19:49:36] <Forte> or the game converges to kingmaker
[19:49:47] <Forte> i merely point this out because
[19:49:52] <Forte> assuming we dont kill you
[19:50:08] <Forte> whatever else you do will likely converge to the kingmaker scenari
[19:50:08] <Forte> o
[19:50:34] <Forte> only difference being that misfiring on the guy we protect would make that scenario converge more slowly
[19:50:40] <Forte> but it will still happen
[19:50:54] <Forte> that was my entire purpose for talking to you right now
[19:50:59] <Forte> because im not sure if you realized that
[19:51:06] <Andrew> which kingmaker scenario
[19:51:07] <Andrew> are you talking about?
[19:51:14] <Forte> ie
[19:51:19] <Forte> the numbers get really low
[19:51:20] <Andrew> me being kingmaker
[19:51:21] <Andrew> or them?
[19:51:26] <Forte> it depends slightly
[19:51:31] <Forte> lets say it is 1/2/1
[19:51:45] <Forte> if we kill you and you kill us
[19:51:48] <Forte> village wins
[19:51:58] <Forte> if you kill village, we win
[19:52:23] <Forte> the other possibility is 2/1/1
[19:52:26] <Andrew> if it is 1/2/1 it goes to village kingmaker scenario.
[19:52:34] <Forte> im referring to at night
[19:52:38] <Andrew> i'm talking wolf/mafia/village
[19:52:39] <Andrew> yes
[19:52:42] <Andrew> it goes to vilage kingmaker
[19:52:44] <Andrew> i hook one of you
[19:52:47] <Andrew> kill the other.
[19:52:49] <Andrew> 1/1/1
[19:52:52] <Andrew> village kingmaker.
[19:52:58] <Forte> point is
[19:53:08] <Forte> someone ends up being kingmaker
[19:53:20] <Andrew> and right now that's me
[19:53:22] <Forte> it is inevitable because
[19:53:25] <Andrew> and i don't want to be kingmaker
[19:53:33] <Forte> everyone knows everything
[19:53:34] <Forte> ok
[19:53:35] <Forte> i get that
[19:53:45] <Forte> the point is though that someone has to be kingmaker
[19:53:50] <Forte> you cannot win any other way
[19:53:57] <Andrew> oh i realized that
[19:54:00] <Forte> so
[19:54:01] <Andrew> a long tiem ago
[19:54:11] <Forte> any scenario that doesnt involve us killing you
[19:54:13] <Forte> will converge to that
[19:54:15] <Forte> no matter what.
[19:54:23] <Andrew> yup
[19:54:26] <Andrew> so i have to make it so
[19:54:30] <Andrew> any scenario where you do kill me
[19:54:33] <Andrew> becomes a shitty dice roll for you
[19:54:48] <Forte> surprise! every scenario that involves us killing you is either a dice roll
[19:54:50] <Forte> or a flat out loss
[19:55:19] <Andrew> i had a 100% win chance too
[19:55:19] <Andrew> to win
[19:55:19] <Forte> we wont kill you because there is a high enough chance that a flat out loss could happen
[19:55:21] <Andrew> and then you killed me
[19:55:31] <Andrew> so i don't want you to win
[19:55:33] <Andrew> anymore.
[19:55:52] <Forte> are you encouraging me to kill you right now?
[19:56:01] <Forte> that would certainly help your cause
[19:56:31] <Andrew> do you want to risk the dice roll?
[19:57:00] <Andrew> after all the effort you've put into it?
[19:57:05] <Forte> of course not
[19:57:06] <Forte> but
[19:57:09] <Forte> i have no choice
[19:57:13] <Forte> just as you have no choice
[19:57:18] <Forte> of forcing a kingmaker
[19:57:20] <Forte> they both suck
[19:57:27] <Forte> but because of the way this game was designed
[19:57:28] <Andrew> i'm a wolf
[19:57:29] <Forte> that is how it is
[19:57:35] <Andrew> i always have to force a kingmaker
[19:57:38] <Forte> no
[19:57:44] <Forte> there is a huge difference between this game
[19:57:46] <Forte> and the wolf in other games
[19:57:55] <Forte> the wolf never knows 2/3 of the entire mafia
[19:57:58] <Forte> even in mafia mafia 2
[19:58:02] <Forte> the wolf didnt know who the mafia were
[19:58:11] <Forte> if the wolf stays hidden
[19:58:12] <Andrew> in the end-game scenario
[19:58:13] <Andrew> though
[19:58:15] <Forte> he is not kingmaker
[19:58:17] <Andrew> the wolf is undoubtedly outed
[19:58:21] <Forte> but because you were a mole
[19:58:24] <Forte> you had to out yourself
[19:58:24] <Forte> lol
[19:58:32] <Forte> that sounds ironic but it is true
[19:58:37] <Andrew> nah i had to out myself
[19:58:37] <Andrew> because
[19:58:43] <Andrew> of the threat of my own survival
[19:58:53] <Andrew> i evne used my own tools to help a secure success towards us winning
[19:58:57] <Andrew> and then you try to backstab me?
[19:59:05] <Andrew> that's p awful teamwork
[19:59:11] <Forte> you backstabbed first
[19:59:14] <Forte> for fuck sake
[19:59:19] <Andrew> no
[19:59:20] <Andrew> you did
[19:59:22] <Forte> im not going to count billy's chief shiit
[19:59:23] <Andrew> by removing me from power
[19:59:25] <Andrew> i count it
[19:59:27] <Forte> because that is completely irrelevant
[19:59:29] <Andrew> because it's something that the mafia did
[19:59:31] <Forte> it. did. nothing.
[19:59:41] <Andrew> it told me that you don't trust me at all
[19:59:43] <Andrew> which is good enough
[19:59:44] <Andrew> for backstabbing
[19:59:52] <Forte> your logic is twisted
[19:59:54] <Forte> dude
[19:59:59] <Andrew> i punished billy
[19:59:59] <Forte> if you want us to win
[20:00:03] <Forte> genuinely
[20:00:09] <Andrew> because of his difficult demeanor this entire game
[20:00:09] <Forte> then whether we fully trust you or not
[20:00:12] <Forte> is irrelevant
[20:00:16] <Andrew> and his overall hostility towards the traitor
[20:00:20] <Andrew> how much you claimed he ragequit
[20:00:21] <Forte> get that through your thick skull
[20:00:32] <Andrew> it's a nobrainer to kill billy
[20:00:34] <Forte> billy's last ragequit wasnt about you
[20:00:39] <Forte> it was because of UncleSam
[20:00:47] <Forte> actually
[20:00:51] <Forte> they were 100% due to UncleSam
[20:01:16] <Forte> the first time was because UncleSam told him to "use evidence" to find the traitor when there was practically none
[20:01:26] <Andrew> if there's a shitty person to deal with that cannot be controlled, you eliminate him to make the rest of negotiations easier.
[20:01:28] <Forte> the second one was due to UncleSam saying something contradictory
[20:01:37] <Forte> regarding his orc chief veto
[20:02:21] <Forte> billy wasn't that shitty to deal with
[20:02:34] <Forte> he just didnt fully trust you
[20:02:39] <Forte> like any rational person would
[20:02:45] <Forte> UncleSam gave him that role for a reason
[20:02:50] <Forte> even though
[20:02:54] <Forte> i ended up being a waste anyway
[20:02:54] No such nick/channel
[20:02:55] <Forte> ...
[20:02:56] No such nick/channel
[20:06:44] <Forte> have you calmed down?
[20:19:00] <Forte> well whatever the case we are def idling tonight
[20:19:08] <Forte> the rest is up to you man!
In this log he acknowledges that killing him was the logical fucking choice for village if we idled and he killed one of us. He then went on to threaten killing us knowing this in hopes that we would just kill a villager, even though I said over and over again that I would idle.
Exhibit B
To summarize:
If Snype was telling the truth, then he wouldnt flat out tell me that lynching him would be the best action for the village, considering how defensive he has been in this thread.
So lynch me and this game goes on to kingmaker which will likely be you. Lynch Snype and we roll the dice. I don't see how anything but lynching Snype makes sense.
This proves that Snype is not someone to trust if he implies that he will throw the game for you.Steven Snype said:
To summarize:
If Snype was telling the truth, then he wouldnt flat out tell me that lynching him would be the best action for the village, considering how defensive he has been in this thread.
So lynch me and this game goes on to kingmaker which will likely be you. Lynch Snype and we roll the dice. I don't see how anything but lynching Snype makes sense.