Metagame NP: Stage 3: Tunak Tunak Tun

[The Quasar]

My little cent about Yanmega.

It's quite difficult to me thinking about Yanmega like something you can consider not broken. He doesn't request you to keep simple attention, he's mortal. All two sets (I'm trying very well LO's Speed Boost set, Tinted Lens set is perhaps more dangerous too) are too much strong. Quite impossibile to switch in, good coverage with STABs Arial Ace and Bug Buzz, Protect to gain speed if you need, Shadow Ball or Giga Drain to complete his "pieces of ordnance".
With a good defog/spinner support for SR, he's the best late sweeper. Differently by Sharpedo, his stamina against Much Punch change it in a "sweet" caress. he takes a Sucker Punch well, perhaps Ice Shard could be useful but only rarely Abomasnow could make use of it.
It's easy bulding around it, too much.
I think RU tier could be better without not-dragon-but-bug-fly, increasing IMHO variety playstile and fun.

 

[Mew2]

I didn't use Tinted Lens and didn't see it at all. Beyond killing Doublade and making it easier to kill Registeel / Aromatisse, I feel like it's not as good.

W-w-what?!

Also run Low Kick instead of Flamethrower on Zoroark and change to a Jolly nature :]

 

[Ares]

I didn't use Tinted Lens and didn't see it at all. Beyond killing Doublade and making it easier to kill Registeel / Aromatisse, I feel like it's not as good. It is a relief to see that Yanmega is not getting faster (perhaps because that means that your own Yanmega is free to come in... idk). Yanmega's speed is a big part of what makes it so scary.

Yeah I tended not to see a lot of tinted lens Yanmega's while I was gettin reqs, mainly because everyone was spamming Registeel, Golbat, and Togetic on like every team. Thank the pokegods that you didnt though because unless you were running a solid check/counter to it, than tinted lens can punch holes in teams. I used it at the beginning of reqs and for unprepared teams I could lead with it and get 3 kills just from spamming bug buzz. I wouldnt write it off as easily as you are. Maybe try playing around with that set or watch someone who does use specs tinted lens, because they require to different play styles.

 

[Lemonade]

Tinted Lens needs very good hazard control compared to other wallbreakers and the Speed Boost set because of that SR weakness and how wallbreakers optimally work. You are supposed to bring wallbreakers in early during the game against something slow so you can get a free hit off, KOing what's in play or damaging the switch in. After the opponent fodders something and brings in a faster threat, you switch out instead of saccing (seems obvious, it really wastes Mega's potential, but people seem fine with taking out one wall). Then, when you see something slow again, bring out the wallbreaker once more. If Rocks are up, how freely you can use Mega's wallbreaking prowess is restricted. So, if people don't play with enough hazard control they end up not getting rid of Rocks until late, where breaking walls is no longer enough to create a sweep opportunity and win.

Basically, I got the feeling that on the ladder people were trying to play Tined Lens too similarly to Speed Boost and thus it was less effective in it's role.

 

[Bouff]

Ok, so I've played around 200+ games (reqs on 4 accounts i guess), so I'll post my updated thoughts:

Zoroark: Yeah, this thing has exceeded my expectations drastically. It basically only has two hard counters, in Togetic and Aroma, thanks to the fact that it can adjust its moveset to slam most of its common answers, i.e. GK for Rhyperior, Extrasensory for Gurrdurr and Hitmonlee (although they have to be hit on the switch), and basically fucks over an extremely large portion of hyper-offense (or offense in general) thanks to its amazing speed and attack stat. It's not really that big for stall teams thanks to the fact that they usually carry Aroma + something that can check it, but its ability to pressure offense where one misplay can turn around an entire match thanks to Illusion pushes it over the line for me. buh bye

will write yanmega l8r

 

[Explorer]

This person built a team with most of Yanmega's best "counters," only to fall flat to Doublade:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-151949983

I basically had to weaken his Clawitzer, the only thing that could seriously threaten Doublade, and this was an easy 6-0. Of course the person forfeited before I finished off his team, but it would have been a 6-0 aside from the possibility of parahax. Gastrodon worked as a nice pivot for Clawitzer until I could weaken it enough to plow through it.

Team

Doublade (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Serious Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw

Yanmega (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball
- Bug Buzz

Torterra (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Gastrodon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Acid Armor

Zoroark (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch

Sandslash (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 212 Atk / 252 Def / 44 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock

That said, I am considering replacing Sandslash with Armaldo or Torkoal because I am stacking Ice weaknesses. Armaldo is appealing because it crushes Ice-types and Togetic(and I think I'd have room for Cross Poison to handle Aromatisse), while Torkoal finishes a FWG core and can help Gastro spread burns. Suggestions on what to do here would be appreciated.

+

+

The Yanmega + Torterra + Doublade core has continued to give me great success on the ladder. Most of Yanmega's counters are flattened by one of Torterra's STABs, and the few that aren't are readily handled by Doublade. Of course, getting Rocks up first helps, and if Gastro can get some Scald burns that'd be even better.

Speaking of Yanmega, this team has to play around it. Getting Rocks up is numero uno priority, and then wearing it down with priority tends to work (disguise Zoroark as Sandslash!). Also, most people assume Torterra is the rocks setter, so if I lead with it, my opponent sometimes tries to switch to Yanmega on the "rocks." In this case, I can use Rock Polish on the switch and KO with Stone Edge (really this is only used for Yanmega, Togetic, and Moltres, but it's better than Iron Head/Outrage/other dumb move).

Here is another replay highlighting the potency of my defensive core if you like Gastrodon:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-151645266

​

 

[faint]

Just a bit of a disclaimer: This was my first time ever playing RU.

The team I used to achieve reqs in just under 40 battles was incredibly HO focused with priority on nearly every mon. Coming into this tier I was more worried about designing a team that would be able to deal with mons like Hitmonlee and Duoblade moreso than Zoroark + Yanmega. I ended up using a Hitmonlee, Duoblade and Zoroark of my own since I considered those three to be a pretty awesome HO core. I decided against including Yanmega on my team at all because at first glance I didn't consider it to be that big of a threat, even though I was aware it was being tested. From my tiny bit of experience in DPP UU I knew that Tinted Lens Yanmega (before it went to BL) was probably the more dangerous of the two sets, yet I imagined most people would opt for speed boost and they did.

With that being said, I NEVER had any trouble with Yanmega in any of my matches. I understand I did not play as much as most of you probably have, but I did run into my fair share of Omastar lead teams w/ Yanmega and was able to handle those teams with ease. I imagine the primary reason why Yanmega was so easy for me to handle was because of my abundance of priority on time of the LO damage it was taken every turn. For whatever reason I also found more players to be running Giga Drain > Shadow Ball so Duoblade was always a reliable check. The biggest problem I have with Yanmega was getting randomly flinched, so at least in my experience with it I don't see it worthy of a ban. I am not saying that I am not going to vote against a Yanmega ban. I've been reading the replies here and will continue to do so to gauge a better understanding of whether or not Yanmega is truly broken.

Zoroark, however, should probably be banned. It's pretty scary how many matches I won on turn 4 or so just be disguising Zoroark as my Hitmonlee. Knock Off is ridiculously strong and lands some crazy KOs. Sucker Punch is of course a godsend and many players often thought their Musharna/Reuniclus was getting OHKO'd by a Hitmonlee Sucker Punch...though obviously that's more of a problem with the skill level many of my opponents had. Zoroark having the ability to run surprise moves like Flamethrower, Grass Knot, etc while disguised as something completely different was the main reason why I found it broken, however. While most of the time I was able to spot a Zoroark based on obvious things like hazard damage, otherwise dumb "switch-ins", etc, there were a few instances where I was completely caught off guard and likely lost a mon in the process.

tl;dr: Not set on Yanmega being broken but I will continue reading other replies to decide my vote. Zoroark is pretty much a guaranteed ban for me.

 

[Ares]

tl;dr: Not set on Yanmega being broken but I will continue reading other replies to decide my vote. Zoroark is pretty much a guaranteed ban for me.

The thing is though, you've come into RU at a time where everyone is using one of the 3 Yanmega counters. Registeel, Yanmega, Golbat just so they wont get destroyed by wall breaker Yanmega. In combination with dugtrio Yanmega can take on the best one out of those in Registeel and the others are weak to rocks and can be worn down either with knock off or residual damage. Yes Yanmega needs entry hazard support for the wallbreaker set but if you come in on something slower like a Mola, it acts exactly like a Choice Specs Exploud except there isnt anything aside from those 3 above that wants to take a hit from Yanmega. At this time in the meta game everyone is spamming those and its very centralizing, also I would recommend trying out a nasty pass team with Yanmega. You can use http://pastebin.com/cdHA4scz this one made by Aerow if you dont feel like making your own.

 

[Explorer]

Just a bit of a disclaimer: This was my first time ever playing RU.

The team I used to achieve reqs in just under 40 battles was incredibly HO focused with priority on nearly every mon. Coming into this tier I was more worried about designing a team that would be able to deal with mons like Hitmonlee and Duoblade moreso than Zoroark + Yanmega. I ended up using a Hitmonlee, Duoblade and Zoroark of my own since I considered those three to be a pretty awesome HO core. I decided against including Yanmega on my team at all because at first glance I didn't consider it to be that big of a threat, even though I was aware it was being tested. From my tiny bit of experience in DPP UU I knew that Tinted Lens Yanmega (before it went to BL) was probably the more dangerous of the two sets, yet I imagined most people would opt for speed boost and they did.

Why don't you share your team (maybe after the suspect test so subpar players can't randomly steal it). The Hitmonlee disguise is a classic.

As for my own team, I decided to try Armaldo first over Sandslash, catering its EVs to live a Hi Jump Kick from Hitmonlee's standard move set.

Armaldo (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Battle Armor
EVs: 224 HP/120 Atk/64 Def/52 SpD/48 Spe
Nature: Impish
-Stone Edge
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Iron Tail/Knock Off

The EVs accomplish a couple things:
-Hit a Stealth Rock number
-Live a 252+ Reckless HJK from Hitmonlee 100% of the time (ignoring hazards)
-Outspeeds Base 50 Pokemon with 4 Speed EVs.
*I might adjust the Atk and SpD EVs though for Yanmega benchmarks.

It turns out Cross Poison is illegal with rocks so I ran with Iron Tail instead, to hit Aromatisse specifically. The other moves are pretty standard.

I'm actually pretty happy with this set on the suspect ladder (after bans are case I would use a different set). It's also an excellent check to Togetic (prefers paralysis over burns/poison). I could consider Earthquake>Iron Tail for Registeel, or some other niche move like Toxic to hit Alomamola on the switch-in.

It also has great synergy with Gastrodon, attracting Water-type moves and Rock-type moves for it.

Montsegur: I think this set handles Golbat fairly well too. But this thing has 4MSS since I need to cram rocks and spinning onto 1 Pokemon. If I could run Earthquake too that'd be best…

This is obviously a niche option and for many teams Sandslash may work better. I just needed something to handle Ice and Grass-types a bit better for synergy with my own team. If you want to criticize me for using Armaldo, believe me, it's not the first time that's happened.

 

[soulgazer]

Zoroark needs to go imo. Zoro is very versatile thanks to its amazing offensive movepool and to Illusion, and is also really hard to switch into (there's a problem when a Fighting-type can be 2HKOed by 2 resisted hits..). Need it to OHKO Rhyperior? use Grass knot. Need it to remove Gligar for its teammates? use Hidden Power Ice.. and the list goes on. It can even run Extrasensory to beat Gurdurr (which iirc is considered one of its best answer(correct me if im wrong)). It also sits in a good speed tier (105), and the majority of the Pokemon that can outspeed it won't enjoy taking a LO Sucker Punch lol. The only issue with it is its bulk, but it's not enough to stop this savage :[

As for Yanmega: while it is not as unpredictable as Zoroark, Yanmega's ability to wreck Hyper Offense teams with Speed Boost and to wreck slower and bulkier teams with Choice Specs Tinted Lens makes it a threat. I never really had a problem playing around Yanmega during my laddering (ladder was bad tho, so yea..), but I have seen it doing a ton of works when I was watching RUgged Mountains games. Let's not forget that you can easily just use a Dugtrio with it and wreck the majority of your opponent's answers to Yanmega by simply trapping them..

oh and lead omastar is a God

 

[Lemonade]

IMO as a wallbreaker Yanmega is good but not OP. Things are supposed to die to wallbreakers when they get a free hit. For example, not much can take Specs Boomburst from Exploud or LO / Specs Clawitzer. "It's slow" is not a very meaningful argument here because the whole point is to bring them in against a slower target for that free hit. Yanmega breaks through a little more maybe, and forces some suboptimal sets, but the 4x SR weakness is inconvenient to have as a wallbreaker. If you predict incorrectly, Mega pretty much has to switch. But if this happens when its wallbreaking is not finished, removing hazards is pretty much mandatory before you can bring it in again (let's face it, Rocks are really easy to get up). When something like Exploud can't kill a wall, switching it out and then back in later is not a huge problem because a couple Stealth Rock switches does not put it in a huge danger zone. Basically rehashing what I said above.

Speed Boost is the ridiculous set I think. I don't think it's very meaningful to talk about what walls it since, as with any other sweeper, your team should be designed to create its lategame win. Therefore, it makes more sense to talk about revenge killing, and Fletchinder is pretty much the only 100% guaranteed kill. When I see a sweeper, I think to myself, OK, I have to keep (blank) alive as a last resort check. For example, if my Virizon wall in Amoonguss dies, I know I have to keep Fletchinder healthy, or my Scarf Delphox, or Scarf Braviary, or whatever. But with Yanmega it's more like (if I don't have Fletchinder on my team) "I have to maintain Rocks up / can't let my setter die against their really good Defogger, and keep my Sucker Punch Zoroark alive, and keep my Sucker Punch Druddigon alive, and keep my Aqua Jet Kabutops (or something)". There are just too many conditions to maintain and I kinda wish we could ban Mega + Speed Boost only, but w/e.

 

[horyzhnz]

First time playing RU; caved in and used the almighty Hand Grenade for the last few matches to get reqs, but yeah.

Used a Sash Omastar lead for most of my matches, both with HG and my own team, so Yanmega really wasn't a problem unless I let them spin / Defog away the Stealth Rocks, since Omastar OHKOs the standard set with Ice Beam while they Giga Drain. Also found that Rhyperior at full HP also kinda poops on Yanmega as long as it can hit the Stone Edge, since Giga Drain doesn't kill it without prior damage, but Spikes / SR aren't that hard to set up, Golbat and Registeel are easily handled by teammates such as Hitmonlee, Cobalion, and Doublade, so it's really not that hard to play around them. Cobalion can also be a problem if you don't flinch it with Air Slash or outspeed it yet, but running the Speed Boost set gives you a chance to hit it at least, and if you don't KO it, a teammate can usually take out a weakened Cobalion anyway. Yanmega pretty much picks its own checks and counters, and some of them can just be muscled past (Shadow Ball kills Doublade, but it can just flinch its way past). The Specs + Tinted Lens set is also pretty damn powerful; what is a 2x resistance? Probably going to vote to ban it, literally the most powerful win condition in RU and forces 50/50s with opposing Yanmegas.

Zoroark in my opinion isn't actually that hard to beat, despite having no solid counters and that mindgame-creating Illusion ability. An opponent's team's last slot will have the Pokemon Zoroark will be disguised as in it, so it really only narrows it down until you get some damage onto Zoroark. In addition to this, most of the time all you really need to do is get some hazards up, or play aggressively due to its habit of setting up SDs or Nasty Plots on switches it tries to force. I've never really had a problem with Zoroark on the suspect ladder, although on the few times it did manage to +2, it tore through my team like a sharknado. tl;dr it might sometimes be easy to handle, but as soon as it gets an opportunity to set up, it's pretty much game over. ban pls

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

First time making it in a suspect test and I keep it short: Yanmega should be banned, Zoroark is a case close, but ban-worthy

Yanmega is simply to strong with specs and to fast with Speed Boost. People here made good points, so I sum up my experience with it: Specs Lens only works with Yanmega well in RU, Mothim sucks because it lacks speed and some power(yes I tried latter out just for the sake of understanding what makes Yanmega so good). Sandslash and Yanmega are best bros. because first spins and deals with Doublade and Cobalion(not special ones) while latter simply is a easy to abuse winbutton/win condition.
In the ladder, until the rise of Togetic, Specs Lens was incredibly good for taking out pretty much anything. U-Turn to Cobalion on a Specs set against Togekiss switchins was really awesome too.
The only thing that really deals with Yanmega are actually Stealth Rock. And stuff like AV Bouffalant. Which sucks -->ban the fly

Zoroark is a different case however...it is an incredible good offensive supporter, especially sets which catches mons off guard like HP ICE and Grass Knot. Scarf Zoroark also got the better of me in some battles...what makes me think different of Zoroark compared to the fly is that it lacks some power(not saying it is weak btw) and that most fairies deal with it easily. In fact, stuff like Slurpuff sets up on it with Belly Drum(Slurpuff is good in RU because most common steel type is Cobalion).
I say ban it, but only because it can support sweeper way to good and it has a strong option for STABing people with Knock Offs and especially Sucker Punch, although it has universal fairy counters!! That is something important to consider!. -->ban the fox, but think about the universal fairy checks!

If this post is to short: I support most opinions of the people which wishes a ban. Why should I repeat that stuff? The pro side covered anything pretty much

(And Nastypass ScarfExploud is really good. Try it out folks. Modest Exploud is faster than anything with 110 base speed :P)

 

[Turtleye]

Zoroark is a different case however...it is an incredible good offensive supporter, especially sets which catches mons off guard like HP ICE and Grass Knot. Scarf Zoroark also got the better of me in some battles...what makes me think different of Zoroark compared to the fly is that it lacks some power(not saying it is weak btw) and that most fairies deal with it easily. In fact, stuff like Slurpuff sets up on it with Belly Drum(Slurpuff is good in RU because most common steel type is Cobalion).
I say ban it, but only because it can support sweeper way to good and it has a strong option for STABing people with Knock Offs and especially Sucker Punch, although it has universal fairy counters!! That is something important to consider!. -->ban the fox, but think about the universal fairy checks!

If this post is to short: I support most opinions of the people which wishes a ban. Why should I repeat that stuff? The pro side covered anything pretty much

(And Nastypass ScarfExploud is really good. Try it out folks. Modest Exploud is faster than anything with 110 base speed :P)

Keep in mind that the only two viable defensive Fairies are Togetic and Aromatisse. The former of which is crippled by Knock Off(Zoro can possibly disguise as a special attacker to lure it out) and the latter which doesn't fit on every playstyle.

 

[EonX]

Alright, now that I got suspect reqs, I'll share my thoughts on the two suspects:

Yanmega: So this thing was really, really annoying to have to deal with. Between it's Choice Specs and Speed Boost sets, Yanmega has a pretty easy time destroying most of the metagame. The biggest issue I found with it was not the effectiveness of these sets (don't get me wrong, they're both really good) but the fact you had to basically play a "50-50" guessing game as to which set Yanmega was running. If you pick wrong, you lose; that simple. Saving something faster for a possible Specs set means you're totally boned by the Speed Boost set. The same can be said of saving a wall that isn't named Registeel, Togetic, or SpDef Golbat if it turns out to be Choice Specs instead of Speed Boost. The team I used basically relied on offensive pressure to keep Yanmega from getting too many chances to switch-in, but if it ever had a chance to come in (usually off of a KO) my god it was absolute hell to deal with. Definitely want this thing out not just for its ability to wreck teams easily depending on the set, but the fact you have to guess which set it is most of the time as Team Preview just doesn't give you enough insight most of the time.

Zoroark: Heading into this, I really didn't know what to think of Zoroark. I was completely neutral on it since I understood the good and bad qualities it brings to the metagame but just didn't know if one really outweighed the other. For that reason, I decided to use Zoroark on the team I used all the way through my run to get suspect reqs. Throughout all of my battles, there were very few where Zoroark didn't make a major impact on the battle. I saved quite a few replays as I went along so I could kind of look over them and study them a bit more in-depth to help me better understand Zoroark's qualities. As I watched them, there was one constant, whether I pulled off the RUse effectively or not. Zoroark forced my opponent to make correct play after correct play after correct play. It puts so much pressure on the opponent to not slip up. And if the opponent does slip up, odds are it's KOing an important defensive member of the oppposing team or setting up to +2 and sweeping. I also played quite a few matches vs. Zoroark in this run as well, and even though I didn't have a major issue with it, this is due to the fact I ran both Cobalion and Virizion on my team, it was still annoying to face. It wasn't originally for Zoroark as I needed a Rocks setter and 2nd sweeper, but it ended up helping me defend against Zoro really well. There's at least 3 battles I can remember Zoroark either winning me games or getting back in games I had no business being in due to how bad I was playing at the time. Although I'm still a bit on the fence about it, I do feel it needs to go due to the fact it creates so many mindgames and forces the opponent to play incredibly carefully every time it gets in.

Tl;dr: Yanmega needs to go. Really hard to defend against. Zoroark probably needs to go due to how carefully it forces you to play against it.

 

[Hot N Cold]

I was very clear around Zoroark but I was skeptical about Yanmega until reqs, I played lot of games against Yanmega and is really scary because their counters/checks are really easy to wall; Dugtrio for example works specially well paired with Yanmega so is able to kill Registeel/Aroma SpD (Aroma physically defensive is 2HKO by Yanmega), actually Dugtrio is able to switch into Registeel, trap and kill so Yanmega can sweep the rest of the team.

Speed Boost Yanmega destroys offensive teams the worst playstyle for Tinted Lens Yanmega, also if we're banning Zoroark in this case Mega is even more broken because Zoro pressure pretty well Yanmega.

Banning both is the best way to go imo :]

 

[atomicllamas]

Idk why people keep implying Choice Specs Yanmega is bad against offensive teams, sure you can revenge kill it, but that implies that you already sacked a mon to get it in. Neutral Max Speed 95 isn't even that slow, and on offense, Choice Specs Yanmega is OHKOing or at worst 2HKOing everything unless you run Golbat, Togetic, or Registeel on Offensive teams, of which maybe the first two are viable, maybe. But as I was saying, Modest Yanmega probably still outspeeds 2-4 Pokemon on any given offensive team and can just wreck your opponent if they need to conserve one of their mons (ie bring it in against Doublade which they need to conserve for your Hitmonlee, and their switch in will just die to Air Slash). Yanmega is actually pretty bulky on the physical side for an offensive Pokemon with 86/86 physical defenses which is more than enough to take any priority in the tier (especially since its typing 4x resists the most prolific priority in the tier). Yanmega is a cancer in the tier considering both its STABs have pro neutral coverage so while Togekiss and Golbat are cool they still lose to SR + switching in to Air Slash + getting flinched once (30% chance to lose!). I know hax is a dumb argument but come on, Yanmega is a cancer.

relevant calcs

176+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 158-188 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 168-198 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
(p sure only I run 252+ mega snow too, lol)
252+ Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 183-216 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 91-109 (28.9 - 34.7%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO

 

[The Bravest Bird]

I got reqs a couple of days ago and wanted to get my thoughts together before making this post.

Yanmega: I personally have never had trouble dealing with Yanmega, but that is definitely not swaying me. Yanmega has a solid 116 Special Attack with a respectable STAB in Bug Buzz that also goes through subs, and a STAB Air Slash that has that annoying flinch chance. This thing has the potential to shit on either stall or offense, and I usually sac a mon to figure out what set it is, as it isn't exactly clear at team preview. Its' partner in crime, Dugtrio, dents some of the main counters to specs(and LO), Aromatisse(which is kinda shaky to being with imo) and Registeel. Golbat has to run a SpD spread to deal with Yanmega and Togetic can go down to a few unfortunate flinches(crappy argument, ik, but it'd probably happen to a lot of us). Both of these are also handled by Electric-types, which typically have some defensive synergy with Yanmega already. The SR weakness is an issue, but doesn't restrict it from being broken. Overall, Yanmega's perks bring a little too much for RU, and thus warrants a ban.

Zoroark: One word: Illusion. Illusion is a really powerful ability. The mere presence of Zoroark influences the plays that people make. Illusion has a lot of utility - it can lure in certain mons that wall one of Zoroark's teammates. For example(one that's been used plenty of times), Slowking for Delphox. It'll KO with Knock Off, clearing some way for Delphox to plow through the opposition. Illusion isn't the only thing though. Zoroark has PLENTY of sets because of its bountiful movepool consisting of boosting options in SD or Nasty Plot, strong STAB in Knock Off or Dark Pulse, priority in Sucker Punch, and coverage options in Grass Knot, Flamethrower, Low Kick, Extrasensory and Focus Blast, as well as great 105/120/105 offenses. Knock Off is also a huge boon, because removing an item means that Zoroark has a potentially detrimental effect on the match even after it goes down. Its' offensive prowess, versatility, and Illusion also warrants a ban.

edit: feel like I need to elaborate on more stuff but I'll do so later
edit 2: i probably wont do the above

 

[Molk]

And with that, the period of time to get reqs is over! voting thread will be up sometime today hopefully.

I'm gonna keep this thread open until the voting period's over.

 

[HypnoEmpire]

I would just like to say that I got a change of heart towards my opinion on Yanmega because I completely forgot to evaluate it's effectiveness against offense and how it made three to four Pokemon increase in usage and run a SpD spread just to check / counter Yanmega, those being Golbat, Registeel, Aromatisse, and Togetic. Teams had to be extremely anti-Yanmega to even fair well against it. That definitely accounts for something. Also, after some thought, I decided Zoroark was ban-worthy thanks to its extreme unpredictability and strengths. Whenever I faced this thing, I always ended up losing a Pokemon because I brought it into something it would normally check / counter. That doesn't mean I'm a bad player, that means I lost a guessing game. I would make a more lengthy post on it, but I'm tired and I feel like enough has been said on these Pokemon. I say ban both of them. They are unhealthy for the meta in my opinion.

Yanmega because: 1) Speed Boost and Specs are both very troublesome to face for HO teams. 2) If stall lacks Togekiss, Golbat, Registeel, or SpD Aromatisse, then Specs Yanmega will crush their souls. Dugtrio can trap Registeel and to an extent, Aromatisse, but that doesn't really say much about Yanmega. Either way, in my experience, Speed Boost is superior to Tinted Lens, but I probably think that because I stopped using stall and began using HO.

Zoroark because: 1) Illusion to easily lure in something it can KO. 2) Versatility in sets, Illusion, and Sucker Punch create unhealthy mindgames. 3) It can sweep very easily by itself thanks to SD + pretty much the strongest priority move in the tier. 4) How easily it can create a hole in the opposing team to enable another sweeper to come in and sweep with relative ease. Good example: Zoroark is disguised as Hitmonlee, so when Gligar switches in, Zoroark uses HP Ice. Another example: Zoroark is disguised as Aromatisse, Doublade switches in, and Zoroark hits it with a powerful Knock Off / Dark Pulse. Also, I heard this a couple times, but people assume Zoroark only works on pure offense. I've used it a bit on balanced teams and it has worked decently well for me.

Alright, that's all I got. Just wanted to explain my reasoning before voting. :]

 

[zeriloa]

i got reqs a while ago, might as well post my thoughts before this thread is closed.

Zoroark: illusion is really just unhealthy for this metagame imo, especially considering how Zoroark is such a powerful mon with great coverage and boosting moves to take advantage of forced switches. these mindgames not only support itself but its teammates, as its easy to clear their counters out of the way with zoro, or force them to play too carefully around the other mon out of fear that its actually zoro (like not switching in doublade against cobalion). the power, support and the mindgames it causes means its worthy of a ban imo.

Yanmega: not much for me to say here, i find it less broken than zoro but definitely banworthy. the tinted lens set is obviously overcentralizing because every defensive team has registeel or SpD Golbat/Togetic, if its paired with dugtrio even registeel isn't a counter. speed boost is a huge threat to offense, as it takes priority pretty well and easily cleans through weakened teams...powerful/versatile/overcentralizing, yanmega has all of the qualities of a broken mon.

ofc pretty much all of this has been said, these are just my thoughts

 

[Alexandrine]

Yanmega: This has two incredibly effective sets and while I personally prefer the Speed Boost variant, Tinted Lens Specs can smash through nearly everything. Yanmega is also quite versatile in terms of the playstyles it can fair well against. I concur that Speed Boost does better against offense, but Tinted Lens can do well against stall and even offense, in my opinion. Brought in safely, it will most certainly get a kill against offense and, if rocks are kept off the field, can do so multiple times. Its coverage is quite good and although Giga Drain was what I saw the most, Shadow Ball can wreck the otherwise reasonable switch-in Doublade. Its Speed is respectable (this is more notable for the Tinted Lens variant) and revenge killing isn't all that easy, outside of Fletchinder's Acrobatics (not that it'll stay in on that if it can avoid it...), if it's not weakened beforehand. Of course, if it's LO, it'll be worn down by recoil and there's also the 4x Stealth Rock weakness, so it's definitely not completely unmanageable. I do think, however, that its power and the different but useful function of each set is such that it has a very centralizing effect on the metagame, in spite of Stealth Rock. Constricting teambuilding by making it very desirable to run one of a few select Pokemon (i.e. aforementioned mons like Registeel and Togetic) or a sub-optimal set (SpDef Golbat) is an unhealthy effect and, as such, I am inclined to vote for its ban. Also, it can flinch on demand, not that anyone would ever take advantage of that :x

Zoroark: It's a testament to its incredible versatility that it can run a multitude of different sets to great effect. Frailty aside, its Speed is nothing to scoff at, it gets solid, if occasionally unreliable, STAB priority in Sucker Punch, the ever useful Knock Off and a variety of other coverage moves, depending on what it wants to hit. Lesser used Pokemon like Gurdurr have been made use of to check Zoroark, but it has coverage for that as well in Extrasensory, if need be. It also has Swords Dance and Nasty Plot to set up, and can be virtually impossible to stop if it gets a free turn. What might get it said free turn, not to mention a host of other benefits, is Illusion. Yes, hazards may be able to indicate what Pokemon Zoroark is disguised as, unless they're cleared in time, which is not an impossibility. From team preview, you may have a reasonable idea of what Zoroark might want to pretend to be to lure in certain mons, although the opponent may full well know that that's what you're thinking and could take an entirely different approach from what you expected. Disguised as something with entirely different checks and counters, Zoroark makes it difficult to astutely assess the risk vs reward aspect of a play. Make the best guess you can, basically, though something is still probably going to get crippled. It is its power and excellent coverage in conjunction with Illusion that make it broken in my eyes. Ban.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I never played RU before this suspect, but a lot of my friends play this tier, so I decided to try it myself, and I like it a lot, to be honest. Molk, galbia, EonX, barton, and Arikado are all awesome people. :)

Yanmega

I find Yanmega very problematic with all of the sets that are popular for it. It has STABs that OHKO a sizable portion of the metagame on their own, and Speed Boost or Tinted Lens expands those offensive capabilities quite a lot. Without question, from my experience, the Speed Boost LO Yanmega set with Shadow Ball (which destroys Doublade) is the most monstrous thing in the entire tier, especially if used with hazards. Even if the other player has a Yanmega of their own, Speed Boost LO is certain to clean up their team as well as make their Yanmega obsolete as long as yours gets in and starts gathering Speed Boost turns first. Even for opposing Zoroark, the Sucker Punch is obvious, and this can be played around and punished by using Substitute. You really don't even need the Specs Tinted Lens set to beat down stall if you have things like Choice Specs Meloetta, Dugtrio, and Reckless LO Hitmonlee (New Breed's team is absolutely phenomenal), but it is also a very potent set nonetheless if you don't want to carry other stallbreakers or if you want to ease prediction by being able to land hard hits even on resisted targets. The one thing that is almost mandatory if you want to make Yanmega a successful sweeper, though, is Rapid Spin support (NOT Defog, you want your hazards up to facilitate the sweep but not your opponent's Stealth Rock), but a lot of teams carry a Rapid Spinner anyway (some are so outrageously dedicated to accomplishing this that they use Hitmontop so they can Foresight the Doublade switch-in and guarantee a spin lol), so filling in this obligation is not a huge stretch. Yanmega's Bug/Flying grants it a long list of weaknesses that make it very easy to bring down, but this would only be true if it were easy to hit and if its enemies were to have the chance to actually retaliate against it.

All in all, Yanmega easily runs through entire teams with not near enough detriment to balance it out despite its clear disadvantages in its bad typing and 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. I believe it is highly cancerous to the metagame and should be banned from RU. It is most certainly broken.


Just for fun, I made this set and played around with it for a bit:

Electrode @ Shed Shell
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 156 HP / 24 SpA / 100 SpD / 228 Spe
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Taunt

It has just enough Speed to outspeed Dugtrio by 1 point, and Shed Shell to escape it if it has to. The high Speed also comes in handy for Taunting hazard layers or stall mons if Electrode finds itself in front of one of those. Yanmega is pretty much screwed by this set, with Bug Buzz being blocked entirely by Soundproof and with Air Slash not even getting a 3HKO. This makes an okay switch-in to Registeel as well if it comes down to that, too. This is a very good switch-in and general answer to Yanmega, but players probably shouldn't be made to resort to something like this to be able to deal with it, though this is pretty cool from my experience with it.

Zoroark

Zoroark, on the other hand, is something I find to be a very good Pokemon but isn't something that difficult to deal with from my experience, though I've heard lots of other players talk about it being a huge problem for them. First of all, its Illusion ability absolutely requires skill to use, especially when considering Zoroark's extreme frailty. Just running Zoroark is a huge risk for any player, because there are a myriad of factors that can totally ruin its disguise:


1. Obviously Questionable Switch-Ins

If you know your opponent has Zoroark, you can already expect what it's going to be used for. Team Preview totally blows its surprise factor out the window. For instance, if you knock something out with LO Dugtrio, and then they bring in something that obviously isn't a smart choice, such as Registeel or Heliolisk, that is a huge red flag that lets you know it's Zoroark planning to Sucker Punch you for the revenge kill. The order of the team has to be very strategically chosen to make absolute good use of Zoroark's Illusion, and this is not easy to maintain throughout games since they are often not linear and the Pokemon you originally wanted to use as the disguise could have fainted, which messes up the whole situation and makes it easier to tell when the Zoroark user is bullshitting.


2. Damage Gauges of Zoroark's Teammates Are Clearly Visible

Zoroark is obviously easier to hide early in the match when not many of its teammates have taken damage. However, as the battle progresses, you can easily make note of the damage each of its teammates have sustained as well as the status conditions they might have been afflicted with. If you KNOW the opponent's Togetic had 58% last time it left the battlefield, it should be a huge red flag to you when all of a sudden it enters the battlefield later with 100% health after not recovering. If you KNOW the opponent's Amoonguss was paralyzed when it left the battlefield, it should be a huge red flag to you when it comes out later free of status when Aromatherapy or Heal Bell was not used. You can hover your cursor over each teammate on Showdown or whatever server you use and check on any of this at any time in case you forget.


3. Entry Hazards All Affect Zoroark Normally

Using hazards as passive damage or to facilitate sweeping is a very common tactic and is one that often ruins Zoroark's disguise, because it is affected normally by all of them. If it tries to disguise itself as a Pokemon that is weak, resistant to, or unaffected by one of these hazards, that is a huge red flag. There is no way Hitmonlee should ever take normal damage from Stealth Rock and there is no way Rotom-C should be damaged by Spikes under usual conditions.


Zoroark is a good Pokemon; it's fast and has good offensive potential, but is very defensively weak and cannot afford to take hits in the vast majority of cases. From my experience, it's not easy at all to hide Zoroark behind the Illusion of a teammate, for the reasons described above, so if it's going to be deemed banworthy, please don't make it because of "50/50s" or that "you never know if it's Zoroark or not", because that's simply not true. All the player has to do is pay attention to what's going on. I don't find Zoroark that problematic and I found it rather easy to work around when I laddered. It might get a kill or something, but it's not anything even close to broken or insurmountable. It takes commendable skill (or a great deal of luck) to be able to successfully conceal Zoroark from an observant player throughout a match. Its mind games are not that troubling.

 

[breh]

Even when you figure out what Zoroark is, it doesn't magically go away. Illusion is part of the problem but it would be irrelevant if it didn't have a fairly strong Knock Off and a fairly strong Sucker Punch. Even if you see through the ruse and bring in Aromatisse, Emboar, Combusken, heartfish, whatever, you still get Knocked Off and you still lose your item. For Aromatisse and heartfish, that means losing passive recovery and the ability to check other things as well as it could. Even with Wish and Regenerator, they stop being able to stall those precious turns of leftovers that turn 2HKOes on the switch to free opportunities to Wish. Zoroark will occasionally disappoint with its damage, but it provides utility beyond the Illusion.

On your points:

1: You can make "questionable" switches to encourage your opponent to make bad decisions. What the Zoroark is concealed as is very much up to the choice of the Zoroark user and concealing it as something stupid / unfitting (idk, Yanmega without a defogger / spinner or something) is their own fault, as is switching it in without being conscious of what it's disguised as. Some Pokemon are very solid switchins to a lot of stuff in the tier and picking out if it's Zoro or not is not always simple.

2 / 3: Again, this is something that the Zoroark user must be in control of. Defog / Rapid Spin and choosing to run Life Orb or Blackglasses are decisions that you have to make with Zoro. Hazards will probably reveal Zoro after 1 hit, but it may take more if the battle doesn't play in your favor (say I switch in Zoro once into rocks + spikes, use Blackglasses Knock Off on your Aromatisse, switch out, and then later on bring in Druddigon, hit your Aromatisse with Gunk Shot, and switch out of the Registeel you bring in... suddenly I have Zoro and Drudd with the same HP). Running BlackGlasses drops the power of Zoroark's STABs but doesn't really affect whether or not its coverage moves get the 2/OHKOes they need, so it is generally able to afford swapping items. Conversely, you can run Life Orb on whatever you're disguising it as. Regardless, though, the first time you bring in Zoro before the thing it's disguised as, you have no way of knowing what it truly is; in that turn, Zoro can get itself a free turn and maybe bring in something that dies to a well-placed coverage move or grab a Swords Dance.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Even when you figure out what Zoroark is, it doesn't magically go away. Illusion is part of the problem but it would be irrelevant if it didn't have a fairly strong Knock Off and a fairly strong Sucker Punch. Even if you see through the ruse and bring in Aromatisse, Emboar, Combusken, heartfish, whatever, you still get Knocked Off and you still lose your item. For Aromatisse and heartfish, that means losing passive recovery and the ability to check other things as well as it could. Even with Wish and Regenerator, they stop being able to stall those precious turns of leftovers that turn 2HKOes on the switch to free opportunities to Wish. Zoroark will occasionally disappoint with its damage, but it provides utility beyond the Illusion.

Thanks for the reply. :)

Agreed. A well played Zoroark is still certainly an offensive threat even without factoring in Illusion. However, I find Sticky Hold Gastrodon to be the best switch-in. It isn't 2HKOed by Knock Off, has Recover, and gets to keep its Leftovers no matter what. Most of the Zoroark sets I encountered were mixed with Flamethrower, Knock Off, and Sucker Punch. I've heard of Grass Knot being used on Zoroark and I kept it in mind while using Gastrodon but I never saw it, not even once.

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 164-192 (38.4 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

1: You can make "questionable" switches to encourage your opponent to make bad decisions. What the Zoroark is concealed as is very much up to the choice of the Zoroark user and concealing it as something stupid / unfitting (idk, Yanmega without a defogger / spinner or something) is their own fault, as is switching it in without being conscious of what it's disguised as. Some Pokemon are very solid switchins to a lot of stuff in the tier and picking out if it's Zoro or not is not always simple.

Agreed here too, but it is also not always simple to maintain your preferred disguise when using Zoroark. You would have to have at least something or a few things in mind when deciding which Pokemon to use for this purpose, and the Illusion will be ideal for that specific thing and then not be necessarily ideal for every other scenario. While it's true that you can use the 50/50 early on in the match when both Zoroark and its disguise are both at full health and free of status, it's not a ruse that you can continuously use with ease. During the time that it's safer for Zoroark to apply this mind game, it is up to the player to make conservative choices that will minimize the chances of casualties. A lot of this is prediction-based and depends on the actions of both players; while you can't 100% ascertain whether it's Zoroark or not in an early game scenario such as this, the player using Zoroark is not 100% safe either, given its frailty. One wrong prediction is often fatal for Zoroark regardless of the pressure it is able to apply there, and using it to scout with U-turn also ruins the disguise unless the Pokemon it's disguised as also has U-turn and has a similar damage output with it (this can be calculated by the opposing player to make sure). The point, as far as I'm able to tell, is that Zoroark takes skill and prediction to use properly, especially since Team Preview exists.

After its preferred teammate to copy (chosen by the Zoroark user) has fainted or even taken damage, that's it for the whole ruse. Then, Zoroark can only copy teammates that it wasn't intended to copy, and in non-linear matches, whether this is effective or not is in the hands of the prediction of the players and luck, which runs out as Zoroark's teammates simply take damage.

2 / 3: Again, this is something that the Zoroark user must be in control of. Defog / Rapid Spin and choosing to run Life Orb or Blackglasses are decisions that you have to make with Zoro. Hazards will probably reveal Zoro after 1 hit, but it may take more if the battle doesn't play in your favor (say I switch in Zoro once into rocks + spikes, use Blackglasses Knock Off on your Aromatisse, switch out, and then later on bring in Druddigon, hit your Aromatisse with Gunk Shot, and switch out of the Registeel you bring in... suddenly I have Zoro and Drudd with the same HP). Running BlackGlasses drops the power of Zoroark's STABs but doesn't really affect whether or not its coverage moves get the 2/OHKOes they need, so it is generally able to afford swapping items. Conversely, you can run Life Orb on whatever you're disguising it as. Regardless, though, the first time you bring in Zoro before the thing it's disguised as, you have no way of knowing what it truly is; in that turn, Zoro can get itself a free turn and maybe bring in something that dies to a well-placed coverage move or grab a Swords Dance.

Agreed. It can be a problem if the battle doesn't play out in the player's favor, which depends on too many factors to have that be in the hands of the player unless they predict everything perfectly without problems, which rewards the player's skill and supports the idea that Zoroark takes skill to use properly.