Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[Tribute]

Am I going to have to do piloswine a 3rd time

 

[Lord Alphose]

Am I going to have to do piloswine a 3rd time

You can if you want to. However, looking at it all, B- seems like the absolute perfect place for Piloswine to have ended up. I don't know where you think it should go or whether it's going to jump up the ladder. It can take so important hits, which is really cool. And it can also deal some solid damage to some different Pokemon. However, it simply lacks the versatility and flexibility to jump up.

 

[ryan]

Pangoro should definitely go up yeah. It's one of the few things out there that absolutely destroys Spiritomb, which is a huge niche. It is also a panda, and you don't say no to panda.

I'd also like to see Mesprit and Spiritomb go up to S-rank.

Mesprit is the most versatile Pokemon in the tier, and everything it does, it does incredibly well. Healing Wish is nuts for offensive teams. Offensive CM is really powerful. Physical sets with Knock Off wreck. Special sets are strong on their own. Can run literally every Choice item. Has an insane movepool. Is one of the few good Ground resists that isn't weak to Rock, making it a nice pivot into things like Rhydon w/o Megahorn. Only downside is that it kind of has to run Gleam on special sets in order to do anything to tomb, but that's not really even a big deal. It also has U-turn, which helps it gain offensive momentum no matter which set it's running. Uxie does things defensively better, but Mesprit has bulk AND power, which makes it a great catch-all for all sorts of teams. Shocked that I'm the first person to make this nom.

Spiritomb is the most irritating thing in this metagame right now. It's not like flat-out broken, but as I've expressed to many, I'd love to see it banned or see it go up to RU. It's just too good at checking almost everything in the metagame. With only one weakness which is really uncommon, it's hard to prepare for. It's bulky. It's strong. Infiltrator makes SubCM Uxie hard to use, makes SubSplit Rotom bad, makes SubNP Mismagius non-existent and forces it to run Colbur most of the time. Pretty much anything weak to Dark becomes hard really difficult to use in this metagame except for Mesprit because it has a strong Gleam and can't be Pursuit trapped well because of U-turn/Healing Wish. Psychics can't touch it. It burns everything with Wisp, hits everything with priority, and doesn't die. It also runs RestTalk, which is impossible to break without keeping up massive offensive pressure or using like BD Slurpuff/random Encore mons that don't mind taking a Dark Pulse (Liepard/Mr. Mime maybe lol/the godly pooflinger Primeape). tl;dr it's absurdly easy to use, it doesn't die, it burns everything, it bypasses Subs, and it makes most Psychics/Ghosts suck. Even if it's not banworthy, it's definitely S-worthy because it has such a huge impact on the meta and because it's an all-around great mon.

 

[Punchshroom]

can't be Pursuit trapped well because of U-turn/Healing Wish

Just saying Hollywood, but since Mesprit's U-turn is faster than Tomb it still gets nabbed by boosted Pursuit. Since Ut-run triggers Sucker Punch as well, it's literally the worst move to go for against Tomb; you'd be better off attacking or hard switching.

 

[ryan]

That's why you U-turn on the switch nigga

 

[Tribute]

You can if you want to. However, looking at it all, B- seems like the absolute perfect place for Piloswine to have ended up. I don't know where you think it should go or whether it's going to jump up the ladder. It can take so important hits, which is really cool. And it can also deal some solid damage to some different Pokemon. However, it simply lacks the versatility and flexibility to jump up.

The move from C+ -> B- was never noted that I saw, my previous argument for B seemed to get drowned by combusken rage ( I have no idea if it had anything to do with a move to B-)

I'll make a drawn out case for B- -> B some other time. TLDR of it is Piloswine IS is flexibility and versatility you say it doesn't have, it can serve as a check to almost anything not named setup BD surpluff or special LO sceptile. Also it beats almost every other rocker 1v1 and afaik with tree gone it can counter every defog and most spinners(what else spins besides cryo/torkoal?)

The comparison to other Bs is a bit silly. It shouldn't be lower than sneasel specifically(Or more abstractly tangela/weezing/golem, and Jynx/haunter have arguably less business being in B-)

 

[brouha]

I think pangoro should go up higher it has amazing attack power and is great to beat spiritomb. With poison jab it can hit incoming fairy types for quite a bit of damage if banded, and also can be used with parting shot to make it easier for sweepers to set up. Plus its defensive weaknesses can easily be covered by teammates. I think it deserves a B or a B- at least.

 

[blaargathon]

I think Frogadier should move up to C+. His Speed and Special attack are great, and while he can't take hits at all, he's one of two Pokemon in the tier that have access to Protean. Getting stab on every single move allows him to OHKO some important threats, and changing his typing can prevent potential OHKOs on himself.

As Water type - 4 Atk Quilladin Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 356-420 (142.4 - 168%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As Ice type - 4 Atk Quilladin Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 178-210 (71.2 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now granted, Quilladin isn't the strongest Grass type in NU, but this is just an example of how useful the defensive aspect of Protean can be, allowing Frogadier to win certain encounters that he would otherwise lose. While he is by no means a metagame defining threat, I feel he is greatly under appreciated and works well enough to be considered C+.

 

[Tribute]

I think Frogadier should move up to C+. Its Speed and Special attack are great, and while it can't take hits at all, its one of two Pokemon in the tier that have access to Protean. Getting stab on every single move allows it to OHKO some important threats, and changing its typing can prevent potential OHKOs on itself.

As Water type - 4 Atk Quilladin Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 356-420 (142.4 - 168%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As Ice type - 4 Atk Quilladin Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 178-210 (71.2 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now granted, Quilladin is by no means the strongest Grass type in NU, but this is just an example of how useful the defensive aspect of Protean can be, allowing Frogadier to win certain encounters that he would otherwise lose. While it is by no means a metagame defining threat, I feel it is greatly under appreciated and works well enough to be considered C+.

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Quilladin: 322-382 (98.7 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So I mean, its kind of irrelevant, you can't switch in on it and if it switches in on you it dies, and if it kills something it gets revenged ezpz

Trying something actually in use

252+ SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Frogadier: 229-270 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0+ SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Frogadier: 184-217 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Giga drain will kill you before you can kill it with HP Steel

 

[Benjg]

When I saw the viability ranking I agreed with most of them. but for a couple of them, I didn't even understand why they were so low.

For instance Dusclops. It is a great wall, has access to Pain Split and Will-o-wisp, shutting down quite a few pokemon. Eg:

252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 92-110 (32.3 - 38.7%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
Dusclops wouldn't be affected by Sucker Punch, and can reply with Will-o-wisp.

252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 226-267 (79.5 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While this does deal a lot of damage, Dusclops can Will-o-wisp or Pain Split, halving Archeop's attack either way. Also, most Banded sets have Stone Edge > Head Smash, and Jolly > Adamant, which is

252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 138-163 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
Meaning Dusclops can completely shut it down.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 172-203 (60.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 212-251 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can stop Feraligatr sweeps with Will-o-wisp, taking +2, +3 and even 62.5% chance for +4 Waterfalls without fainting, and with Stealth Rocks up still only 6.3% chance to OHKO at +3.

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 203-242 (71.4 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also stops Shiftry, although it doesn't really counter it too well.

It doesn't stop there though.

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 246-291 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
This is specially defensive Dusclops, taking +6 Play Roughs and stopping Slurpuff in it's tracks with Will-o-wisp.

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 96-114 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If Rhydon has Substitute it would beat a Dusclops in 1 on 1, but otherwise Dusclops can Will-o-wisp it, and Pain Split it or something else.

252 Atk Dread Plate Liepard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 156-186 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+ Will-o-wisp means it doesn't 2HKO, and Pain Split can be used to gain HP back - although Dusclops would be crippled by lack of Eviolite.

It counters Sceptile pretty well:
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 97-114 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 168-199 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stops LO and SD Sceptile in their tracks.

Pyroar and Mesprit also fall to its mighty defense, allowing Dusclops to switch into a Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse or Fire Blast, then Pain Split right back up again.
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 96-114 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 94-112 (33 - 39.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 90-108 (31.6 - 38%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO

Counters Sawk like a boss:
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 164-194 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 180-214 (63.3 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 122-144 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO]

Although it walls a lot, with the prominence of Knock Off, it is greatly crippled, so I don't expect it to rise too high in the ranking, but I think D rank is a bit harsh. It counters a lot of top threats, even if it does so in a one-time usage thing. Also, it can wear down walls if it needs to with Curse, but mostly it will just get switched out of.

Dusclops D -> C-/C

Another pokemon I think doesn't deserve D rank is Persian. Technician boosted Normal gem Fake Out does a lot.
It isn't particularly amazing, but Normal gem Fake Out + Covet/U-turn/Feint Attack for ghosts does devastate pokemon with lower defenses, and against walls can steal their Leftovers/Eviolites.

Persian -> C-

Carbink:

EDIT: Punchshroom: Uxie fulfills your Dual Screens + SR needs, not to mention it is faster (important for Dual Screeners). Uxie's suicide move (Memento) is much better than Carbink's (Explosion) at supporting teammates, which is kind of what they do. Carbink may be slower but does not set up or use Trick Room any better than Uxie. Completely outclassed by Uxie, best it has going for it is some CM RestTalk set which already faces competition from CroTomb.

Thanks for this.

Ok Rapidash. Am I missing something here, does something else outclass it? Because Banded Flare Blitz hurts. Although it can't KO what it really needs to, it still can rip through weakened teams, with either LO or Band. SR and Spikes support needed, yes, but still needs to be at least C- imo.

Rapidash D -> C-

I think Ludicolo could be upgraded to B+, or even A-, because if it sets up a Rain Dance, it can KO a helluva lot a things.

[/HIDE] 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 320-377 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Taking a little over 50% from Sucker Punch:
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb in Rain: 278-329 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sawk in Rain: 378-446 (129.8 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar in Rain: 842-993 (268.1 - 316.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Carbink in Rain: 328-385 (107.8 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic in Rain: 140-165 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mr. Mime in Rain: 257-304 (115.7 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 237-281 (66.9 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Although admittedly Vileplume OHKOs back with Sludge Bomb, with prior damage, including SR + 2 layers of Spikes, it can OHKO.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mesprit in Rain: 286-339 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Uxie in Rain: 179-212 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gorebyss: 346-408 (137.3 - 161.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With a higher base speed than Gorebyss, it can Rain Dance even if Gorebyss is using Shell Smash.
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Granbull in Rain: 452-534 (117.7 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Gourgeist-Super: 185-218 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (taking 37-45% from Seed Bomb)
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna in Rain: 224-265 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ludicolo B -> B+/A-/A

+2 252+ SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 198-233 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also serves as an Omastar counter, setting up Rain Dance and then Giga Draining if it hasn't switched out.

Ludicolo's special defense is no laughing matter, and it can "sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently."

Ludicolo is walled heavily by Ferroseed though, but otherwise can deal a lot of damage to most of the meta with a Rain Dance up.

Also, Omastar -> A-, just because it can sweep so easily through unprepared teams.

EDIT: Thanks for the update on how Dusclops is outclassed, but I still think it deserves higher than D rank. If nothing else, it is better than 'Tomb at taking Slurpuff and pokemon with Dazzling Gleam.

 

[Celever]

Please provide a quick tl;dr of all of your proposed changes. I can't be sure that I'll find them all in all of those monotonous calcs.

 

[Ares]

When I saw the viability ranking I agreed with most of them. but for a couple of them, I didn't even understand why they were so low.

For instance Dusclops. It is a great wall, has access to Pain Split and Will-o-wisp, shutting down quite a few pokemon. Eg:

252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 92-110 (32.3 - 38.7%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
Dusclops wouldn't be affected by Sucker Punch, and can reply with Will-o-wisp.

252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 226-267 (79.5 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While this does deal a lot of damage, Dusclops can Will-o-wisp or Pain Split, halving Archeop's attack either way. Also, most Banded sets have Stone Edge > Head Smash, and Jolly > Adamant, which is

252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 138-163 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
Meaning Dusclops can completely shut it down.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 172-203 (60.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 212-251 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can stop Feraligatr sweeps with Will-o-wisp, taking +2, +3 and even 62.5% chance for +4 Waterfalls without fainting, and with Stealth Rocks up still only 6.3% chance to OHKO at +3.

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 203-242 (71.4 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also stops Shiftry, although it doesn't really counter it too well.

It doesn't stop there though.

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 246-291 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
This is specially defensive Dusclops, taking +6 Play Roughs and stopping Slurpuff in it's tracks with Will-o-wisp.

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 96-114 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If Rhydon has Substitute it would beat a Dusclops in 1 on 1, but otherwise Dusclops can Will-o-wisp it, and Pain Split it or something else.

252 Atk Dread Plate Liepard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 156-186 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+ Will-o-wisp means it doesn't 2HKO, and Pain Split can be used to gain HP back - although Dusclops would be crippled by lack of Eviolite.

It counters Sceptile pretty well:
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 97-114 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 168-199 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stops LO and SD Sceptile in their tracks.

Pyroar and Mesprit also fall to its mighty defense, allowing Dusclops to switch into a Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse or Fire Blast, then Pain Split right back up again.
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 96-114 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 94-112 (33 - 39.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 90-108 (31.6 - 38%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO

Counters Sawk like a boss:
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 164-194 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 180-214 (63.3 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 122-144 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

Although it walls a lot, with the prominence of Knock Off, it is greatly crippled, so I don't expect it to rise too high in the ranking, but I think D rank is a bit harsh. It counters a lot of top threats, even if it does so in a one-time usage thing. Also, it can wear down walls if it needs to with Curse, but mostly it will just get switched out of.

Another pokemon I think doesn't deserve D rank is Persian. Technician boosted Normal gem Fake Out does a lot.
It isn't particularly amazing, but Normal gem Fake Out + Covet/U-turn/Feint Attack for ghosts does devastate pokemon with lower defenses, and against walls can steal their Leftovers/Eviolites.

When I saw Carbink in D rank I was like WHAAAAAAAT. Diancie is basically Carbink with 50 extra attack stats. Carbink can set up Stealth Rocks, Light Screen and Reflect no problem often, but after some calcs I saw it wasn't as good as it seemed, but D rank is still a bit low.

252+ Atk Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Carbink: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can tank a SE Earthquake and set up Reflect, then Light Screen and SR. It is a great answer to Spiritomb especially though -
252+ Atk Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Carbink: 33-40 (10.8 - 13.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Carbink: 51-60 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Carbink: 51-60 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO

And you can see, it deals almost no damage to Carbink, while Carbink can set up Stealth Rock or Screens, depending on the set.

Again, I don't expect Carbink to shoot up to B rank or anything, I just think it deserves a little more respect when it has 150 base defenses.


Ok Rapidash. Am I missing something here, does something else outclass it? Because Banded Flare Blitz hurts. Although it can't KO what it really needs to, it still can rip through weakened teams, with either LO or Band. SR and Spikes support needed, yes, but still needs to be at least C- imo.

I think Ludicolo could be upgraded to B+, or even A-, because if it sets up a Rain Dance, it can KO a helluva lot a things.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 320-377 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Taking a little over 50% from Sucker Punch:
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb in Rain: 278-329 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sawk in Rain: 378-446 (129.8 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar in Rain: 842-993 (268.1 - 316.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Carbink in Rain: 328-385 (107.8 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic in Rain: 140-165 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mr. Mime in Rain: 257-304 (115.7 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 237-281 (66.9 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Although admittedly Vileplume OHKOs back with Sludge Bomb, with prior damage, including SR + 2 layers of Spikes, it can OHKO.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mesprit in Rain: 286-339 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Uxie in Rain: 179-212 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gorebyss: 346-408 (137.3 - 161.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With a higher base speed than Gorebyss, it can Rain Dance even if Gorebyss is using Shell Smash.
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Granbull in Rain: 452-534 (117.7 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Gourgeist-Super: 185-218 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (taking 37-45% from Seed Bomb)
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna in Rain: 224-265 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 198-233 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also serves as an Omastar counter, setting up Rain Dance and then Giga Draining if it hasn't switched out.

Ludicolo's special defense is no laughing matter, and it can "sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently."

Ludicolo is walled heavily by Ferroseed though, but otherwise can deal a lot of damage to most of the meta with a Rain Dance up.

Also, Omastar -> A-, just because it can sweep so easily through unprepared teams.

I think I've proven my point with Dusclops and Ludicolo especially.

Hey so there is a useful feature when making a post that allows you to hide multiple calcs so what you are trying to say doesnt get lost in them, what you want to do is [ HIDE=name ] all of the stuff you wanna hide like calcs [ /HIDE ] except dont have any spaces between the [ ] s. For more info click here Also you might want to bold any noms you have and what rank you want them for if you are doing a long post, as it helps anyone trying to reply know exactly what you want moved where.

Now as far as Dusclops goes its pretty terrible, its shut down by taunt sub and special attackers. It has next to no offensive presence and just serves as a nuisance whenever I battle it, deserves to stay down in D.

Rain teams are on the rise so I could see Ludicolo moving up to maybe B+.

Carbink has lots of common weaknesses and is completely outclassed for everything it wants to whether its rocks or screens or CM sleep talk. Gonna need a better argument for that.

Persian and Rapidash both need some better arguments again as the are both outclassed and rather niche.

 

[Punchshroom]

Benjg

Dusclops: Dusclops's biggest problem by far is its inability to retaliate very effectively at all. Its main attacks are Night Shade / Seismic Toss, both of which do fixed damage and have no chance to crit or get high damage rolls, meaning most foes aren't very hard pressed to simply duke it out with Clops, especially when Dusclops's recovery is nowhere near reliable enough to make up for its inability to actually counter most foes; it just kind of sits there, takes hits, and tries to burn shit. There is also the fact that Dusclops is, for the most part, completely outclassed by Spiritomb, which has actual fighting capability, does everything Dusclops wants to do, and isn't Knock Off weak; heck, Spiritomb can check threats without even relying on Pain Split! There is almost no reason to use Dusclops at all, as long as Spiritomb is in NU, and even then Clops just isn't that good. D Rank is completely justified.

Persian: It is just so incredibly weak for being a generic frail, fast mon; literally all it has to offer over other Normal-types is Technician Fake Out, which is hardly worth it at all. Other Normal-types can have Knock Off, which does what Covet does but offers coverage. Fake Out is not even exclusive to Persian: Kangaskhan and Kecleon have that too, and their better power is already comparable to Persian's Tech Fake Out, but they more than make up for that by having access to other priority. I think the only reason Persian is even ranked at all is some gimmicky special Persian with Petal Dance or whatever the fuk.

Carbink: Uxie fulfills your Dual Screens + SR needs, not to mention it is faster (important for Dual Screeners). Uxie's suicide move (Memento) is much better than Carbink's (Explosion) at supporting teammates, which is kind of what they do. Carbink may be slower but does not set up or use Trick Room any better than Uxie. Completely outclassed by Uxie, best it has going for it is some CM RestTalk set which already faces competition from CroTomb.

Rapidash: When you combine Rapidash's low HP, hazard weakness, bad bulk, and reliance on Flare Blitz, Rapidash just struggles to survive very long at all, making it very hard to make the most of it. It ends up so that Rapidash cannot spam its STAB, aka pretty much its only usable attack, haphazardly or it dies too quickly to be of much use. Yes, this is factoring in Morning Sun.

Ludicolo: I think I'll have to agree with you on this one. Rain Ludicolo is still a potent threat in the meta, though Ferroseed and Dragalge's prominence have limited its performance. Self explanatory otherwise, Ludi is not hard to figure out.

Omastar: This may also see a rise, though not primarily for its Shell Smash set, but its hazard set has helped to shape offensive teams in the meta.

 

[jake]

Aaaaaand here we are again! Here are the suggestions I agreed with or altered slightly to match a more appropriate change.

Cacturne from C- ==> C
Exeggutor from C ==> B-
Garbodor from B- ==> B+
Luxray from D ==> C-
Mesprit from A ==> S
Mismagius from B+ ==> A-
Pangoro from C+ ==> B
Pawniard from C+ ==> B
Regice from D ==> C
Spiritomb from A+ ==> S
Victreebel from D ==> C-

Unless you feel any of these are debatable / incorrect, they will be implemented around this time tomorrow.

---

Let's actually have some real focused discussion. Our lower A- Rank is much heavier than the upper A+ Rank. Let's organize these Pokemon a little more evenly throughout; which ones deserve to move up? Do any need to go down?

Here are some of my current thoughts on the A+ / A / A- ranks (sorry if these were posted by others and weren't implemented, I know there were a few at least):

I feel like Accelgor is the major outlier here; it's a good Pokemon and I love what it does, but Accelgor just doesn't feel like it belongs anywhere in A Rank right now. It checks only a handful of Pokemon and lacks the ability to really support its team outside of Spikes because of its frailty. Spikes + Final Gambit is great, but I don't believe it falls under the definition of A Rank.

Dragalge probably fits better under A than A-. I also believe that Uxie should move up to A, as well as Samurott.

Gurdurr and Kangaskhan should probably move up to A-; both are fantastic Pokemon atm IMO, and serve great niches on offense / bulky offense teams for checking a number of offensive threats. Gurdurr's effectiveness is mitigated by some of the top Pokemon right now (Slurpuff, Mesprit, Uxie, etc) but it is probably one of the most consistent tanky Pokemon you can possibly ask for right now. If it moves, it should absolutely not go higher than A-, and I wouldn't be bothered if it didn't shift at all.

Omastar should be A minimum IMO. Hazard stack is a great set, and I'm of the opinion that Omastar is just a fantastic offensive weapon to have on your side.

People on IRC suggested Ferroseed to A+, which I would be okay with. Thoughts?​

 

[jake]

(Also, I want to nominate Carbink from D to C; its CM + RestTalk set is actually kind of good and justifies its place on bulky teams as a fire check / if said team needs its unique resistances. It's still kinda just 'okay', but not akin to the likes of Wigglytuff.)

 

[ryan]

I agree with or have no strong opinion on everything zeb posted except for Omastar, which I feel deserves to be in A+. Spikes offense is undoubtedly the most dominant playstyle in the metagame right now, and it seems only natural for the best hazard setter in the metagame to sit in A+. Omastar has tons of things going for it as a hazard setter. Its Speed is good enough for its job, and Weak Armor helps to make its "good enough" Speed actually good. It also has a great movepool to complement its hazard setting duties. Stone Edge wrecks Cryogonal, one of the most common Rapid Spin users in NU, while Scald does tons of damage to the other most common Rapid Spin user, Sandslash. Scald also burns shit, which is obviously great. Icy Wind is cool too, acting as a pseudo Weak Armor that also works on special attackers, and it gives room for your team to gain a lot of early game momentum by allowing you to bring out a slower heavy hitter such as Magmortar or Samurott that normally wouldn't be able to outspeed the opposing Pokemon.

This is probably an unnecessarily long post considering how common Omastar is and how everyone should know what it does, but that fact alone shows why Omastar is such an omnipotent presence in the metagame.

 

[TheArchangle]

Gurdurr and Kangaskhan should probably move up to A-; both are fantastic Pokemon atm IMO, and serve great niches on offense / bulky offense teams for checking a number of offensive threats. Gurdurr's effectiveness is mitigated by some of the top Pokemon right now (Slurpuff, Mesprit, Uxie, etc) but it is probably one of the most consistent tanky Pokemon you can possibly ask for right now. If it moves, it should absolutely not go higher than A-, and I wouldn't be bothered if it didn't shift at all.​

I think Gurdurr could even be A tier worthy. You name Mesprit and Uxie as stops but neither want to take knock off with only LO Mesprit being able to OHKO it and Gurdurr and has poison jab in its arsenal scaring off Slurpuff(2HKOing every set except physically defensive but physically defensive can't 2HKO Gurdurr either).

 

[blaargathon]

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Quilladin: 322-382 (98.7 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So I mean, its kind of irrelevant, you can't switch in on it and if it switches in on you it dies, and if it kills something it gets revenged ezpz

Trying something actually in use

252+ SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Frogadier: 229-270 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0+ SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Frogadier: 184-217 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Giga drain will kill you before you can kill it with HP Steel

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 307-367 (86.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Umm... what?

 

[Tribute]

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 307-367 (86.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Umm... what?

again, you cant switch in

 

[Jaguar360]

again, you cant switch in

Frogadier shouldn't be switching into anything with its poor bulk. It's purpose is revenge killing and wall-breaking. Greninja can barely switch into anything in OU and it is A+ on the viability rankings. You shouldn't be judging things by what they're not supposed to do.

 

[Mistrals]

Wigglytuff to E rank

Ironically I was the person who suggested Wigglytuff going D rank in the first place, but that was before Slurpuff entered this tier and removed almost any niche from it. Any offensive set is pretty much completely outclassed by Slurpuff(Sure, it has STAB hyper voice, but that doesn't do much for it anyways, and Slurpuff has coverage to hit things that resist fairy stab anyways. Defensively, all it has are T-wave, SR, and large wishes. However, considering that it can't take hits very well, those wishes get sent to itself more than anything else in, so it really struggles to pass them. It's also an awful rock setter. Also, considering Audino is able to t-wave but has a much easier time sending wishes, Wigglytuff's better typing doesn't do much for it. Even garbage like Dusclops is much better than this thing tbh.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Wigglytuff and slurpuff function in two different ways, that is basically an apples to oranges. Slurpuff works on sweepeing with cm or bd, popping the tier's cherry if you will while wigglytuff pressures defoggers with a potential competitive boost. Wigglytuff should stay D (maybe even move up to c- but thats for another day.)

 

[Jaguar360]

Swanna C --> B
Swanna has been a great defogger since the start of NU, and with Shiftry gone, it shows even more. Swanna is bar-none the best offensive Defogger in the tier, and thus distinguishes itself from Togetic and Pelipper because of that. Swanna gives all users of Defiant fear thanks to Scald and Primeape also fears taking an Air Slash or Hurricane so it cannot switch in. Pawniard is harder to handle, but again, it fears Scald burns and Swanna can play around with it thanks to Roost (though Swanna is mostly in Pawniard's hands if it is at +2). It is great outside of Defog as well, since it handles Sawk, Gurdurr and Vileplume for the most part and is good on rain teams thanks to Hurricane, above-average speed and Hydration. Unfortunately, Swanna does not have the power oftentimes to K.O. things at full health outside of rain and the Pokemon that it threatens usually have coverage moves to hit back (even though Swanna only has two weaknesses). Also 98 speed isn't enough sometimes, with threats that it should handle like Pyroar and Typhlosion outspeeding it. However, Swanna's good typing, effectiveness as a Defogger, effectiveness as a member on rain teams and access to recovery make it deserving of B rank.

I'll post more on Frogadier later.

 

[Marxman]

Gurdurr and Kangaskhan should probably move up to A-; both are fantastic Pokemon atm IMO, and serve great niches on offense / bulky offense teams for checking a number of offensive threats. Gurdurr's effectiveness is mitigated by some of the top Pokemon right now (Slurpuff, Mesprit, Uxie, etc) but it is probably one of the most consistent tanky Pokemon you can possibly ask for right now. If it moves, it should absolutely not go higher than A-, and I wouldn't be bothered if it didn't shift at all.​

I'd support Gurdurr as high as A+, honestly. While it's extremely one-dimensional and predictable, it's by far the best at what it does. Tanks physical hits like a boss and retaliates back with gigantic, often boosted Drain Punches. Plus Knock Off for good coverage and support, plus STAB priority in Mach Punch. I've loved Gurdurr in the meta for quite a while, and it seems very out of place in B+.

Definitely feel Accelgor and Dragalge are too high. Dragalge had a niche as a solid Combusken counter, but now that Baton Chicken is gone, I don't see much reason to use Dragalge over other generic bulky special attackers. Accelgor can work as an okay suicide lead or Specs attacker, but it's very frail and not incredibly threatening even with Specs.

 

[Gr3gory]

Meganium to C: Meganium is a very underrated support pokemon that has important niches. It gets dual screens so it can work on HO teams, aromatherapy to cure the teams statuses, dragon tail for phazing setup sweepers, grassy terrain for helping its team because a team with a grass type in grassy terrain has a secondary leftovers effect for the team, leech seed to help with the pink blobs, and I'm sure I'm missing some.