XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Sage]

I can second Kitten's opinion on ole Duggy. The ease it is to put Baton pass on your Umbreon, Volt Switch of you Electric type, U-turn to him, it makes your opponent paranoid, putting him into bad palys, or if they bring their Infernape on your Umbreon you Baton Pass and dead Nape. It can KO a ton of pokemon in the tier, Memento gives a good set up oppurtunity for a sweeper. It just has a lot of pros in the meta right now. That being said, It still can barely switch in unless the hit is resisted or from a weak wall. 80 Attack means he has to wear a Choice Band, dont run sash its weak as shit and if you kill the threat, then Duggy lives another day.

 

[Limitless]

Exploud is moving down to C+ rank, while Dugtrio is moving up to B+ rank.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Heliolisk and Gorebyss.

 

[KM]

Heliolisk trades some power, bulk, and speed for better coverage, typing (arguable), and an actual niche, so it deserves to be around the same rank as Raikou. Keep it at B-.

Gorebyss is gutter trash imo. have yet to see a successful smash pass team, drop it to c-

 

[Sage]

Gorebyss sucks, to put it bluntly. I tried a SmashPass for my Dark Horse, and past the low ladder it was very hard to perform correctly. Since a single Roar or status can mess up the pass, it's just to risky to be an dominating playstyle. C rank imo.

 

[slated]

There is no reason gorebyss is anywhere above C+, and imo it deserves to be C just because roar, taunt, whirlwind, haze, clear smog, etc can mess up a smashpass. Not having access to a sleep-inducing move really screws up any chances of smashpassing with Gorebyss.

 

[Patrick1088]

I used gorebyss alongside smeargle back in march or april for thr dark horse. Smeargle was the win condition 97% of the time thanks to spore and magic coat as a big screwbyou to sableye. I tried a similar team the next month after smeargle got the boot and it gorebyss (and even moreso huntail) were garbage. If you wanted to run gore, you could run rain to give it a pseudosmash, but even with the doubled speed, its spped is pitiful. It hits 446 speed after smash. There are so many pokes than can rk its not funny. C- for gore and while im at it D or no rank for huntail.

Ive used duggy a bit, but not enough to comment. I did see a replay of entrainment durant + duggy and tried it in UU for fun. It definitely does that good at least.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I really like Heliolisk for a couple of reasons. While it may seem worse than other Electric-types, it has a ton of cool advantages that give it reason to be used. Dry Skin is a pretty good ability, being immune to Water-type moves is great, especially given the popularity of stuff like Slowbro and Suicune, not to mention the currently retested Manaphy (who may get banned anyways but whatever). This is especially nice given Heliolisk can hit them all super effectively with Thunderbolt. I also like how Heliolisk has a really nice movepool. Grass Knot allows it to bring Swampert down with no trouble (and Rhyperior but that Pokemon isn't that common), and other options like Surf or Focus Blast could be used too. I like LO Heliolisk because it's a nice fast special attacker. It's an overall pretty decent Electric-type with some cool things going for it, so B- would be pretty good for it. Obviously it's really frail and walled by Blissey, so B- is where it should be imo.

As for Gorebyss, I have never used it or seen it so that says a lot about it in UU. I guess it has SmashPass but that's basically it lol. Again, I haven't seen anyone use it to any success since the beginning of the generation, so yeah.

Just my thoughts.

 

[dingbat]

Gorebyss just isn't doing well in this tier atm and it is clearly showing especially in the higher ladder. Although it has the potential to pull off its own sweep or pass it along to another member, the biggest problem is that it fails to outspeed many of the common scarfers in this tier even after one boost and as stated previously, there are still many ways to completely stop it from doing just about that. C rank is about right for Gorebyss.

Heliolisk should also drop to C+ rank as it faces competition with Raikou and the Rotoms, all of which are generally superior options. Heliolisk does has a few niches over these other electric types -- it has the superior moveset out of the Electric types that allows it to directly murder a distinct group of 'mons (i.e. damaging both Swampert and Rotom-H heavily) that the other ones otherwise couldn't do. Dry Skin is also nice as it allows Heliolisk to completely wall Crocune, and provided that Suicune isn't already at +3 or higher, Heliolisk can proceed to straight up beat Suicune. Other than for those specific things, Heliolisk should not be used over the other, often superior Electric types.

 

[President Shinra]

Yeah, beating Crocune is really Heliolisk's niche, but lots of other pokes do it better, and Heliolisk can even lose if it gets bad luck with Calm Mind. Other than that, Raikou, Rotom-H and C and Jolteon are all better. Drop one place to C+ IMO.

 

[HeIIraiser]

I believe Gorebyss has potential to pull off a mid game sweep or pass it to a team member effectively. However, many common scarfers in the current XY UU metagame outseed it even with +2, and there are lots of roar/ww spam in the tier at the moment. rank C seems ok for Gorebyss.

Heliolisk should drop to C+ rank as it is currently outclassed by Rotom forms and Raikou. Heliolisk have, however, superior movepool and can damage pokémons like RotomH/Swampert. Dry Skin is also fine, allowing it to switch into Scald spam from bulky waters. Other than that, I don't see a very good niche for Heliolisk.

 

[jamashawalker]

Gorebyss- Drop to C rank. I am a strong advocate for Smashpass being broken. But after testing it, on it's own without smeargle this thing is boo boo. If your opponent allows you to set up then they deserve to swept. It's bulk is not impressive as its stats lay it out to be, so setting up proves rather difficult. Being a one shot sweeper/baton passer, leaves alot to be desired from it.

Heliolisk- Stay at B- Rank. Great late game sweeper when the opponents pokemon are slightly weakened, but it must always run LO imo, to go along with it's great coverage moves. I've never been a big fan of specs electric types, unless they have a good secondary STAB. (looking at Rotoms) Being a great check to Crocune and the ability to put pressure on slowbro by limiting him to psyshock as it's best answer. Also making ground types think twice about switching into volt switch thanks to grassknot. I wish this thing could move higher but his biggest downside is his lack of power. If he's not hitting things for super effective damage or getting out of there with volt-switch then he is a dead lizard.

Off topic one, but it's irritating to even see on here. Doublade. What does this thing even do? Spin blocking? When the majority of spinners can care less about him. The majority of fighting types in UU, carry a coverage move that allow them to get past Doublade.(Heracross and Meinshao carrying knock off) which leads to the reliance on Eviolite. It's bulk is great, but not long term. For what it needs to do, it gets two switches in a match, 3 if the player is good. In a metagame where fire/fighting types are powerful, scald burns happen every game, and momentum is key, I dont see why this thing is even relevant. Maybe someone can change my opinion on it, I believe this thing deserves a C-/D rank. I wanna say permant D rank as at least Levanny, has Knock off+Sticky Web.

 

[Stef0w]

I kinda missed the chance to do this doing it's initial testing, due to summer.vacation, but I think Mega-Ampharos should raise to A Rank.

This thing just checks soo much of the metagame, while it's slow volt-switch allows frail sweepers like luke and nape to come in freely, and go to town.

I have mainly used a cletic set, but I have heard lot's of good things about the agility/resttalk sets.

So yeah, the loreal commercial needs a raise.

 

[Limitless]

Gorebyss is moving down to C rank, while Heliolisk is moving down to C+ rank. I'm also moving Mega Ampharos up to A rank.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Hitmontop and Lanturn.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Imo, Hitmontop is not good. It relies heavily on Foresight to get a spin off, and even then it can't actually beat Ghost-types. The best it could do is poison something with Toxic. It rarely, if ever, gets a chance to spin, and is also relatively predictable. It is simply outclassed by other spinners like Forretress, Donphan, and Mega Blastoise, all of which I'd sooner use over Hitmontop. In addition, Hitmontop in general is pretty weak, so it kills quite a bit of momentum due to being passive, since it can't hit very hard and aside from spinning doesn't really have any way to support its team. It should definitely be much lower than B- imo, C at the very best, which I'm not even sure it deserves to be there. Iirc its analysis was rejected a while ago, and that says a lot about it.

I haven't used Lanturn at all so no comment on that thing.

 

[KM]

At this point in the rankings, we're sort of wading through a cesspool of mediocre shit to find the true things that are even viable in UU. Should we try and quickly move certain "threats" far down where they deserve it and focus more on finetuning the upper rankings and finalizing the rankings of the B- / C+ pokes that actually deserve a mention?

Like, I really don't feel as though spending a couple of days reaffirming that yes, Ninjask is shit, when that much can pretty easily be determined through IRC / PM / just you using your head, limitless. Our focus would be much better spent debating pokemon who are actually useful in the meta and whose placements would be a source of contention (see: Rhyperior, Togetic).

One possible format: Limitless posts a list of 5-10 nominations for ranks for C and lower mons, e.g. (Ninjask: D, Gorebyss: C, Lanturn: C-, Scrafty: C+) and then people can discuss if they actually have relevant experience using any of the Pokemon on the list. For instance, I know of very few (if any) good players whos input I trust who have even used Lanturn or Hitmontop recently - there's just not going to be a whole lot of discussion that amounts to anything more than theorymon and guesswork (we just saw this with Gorebyss).

Thoughts, Limitless ?

 

[Limitless]

At this point in the rankings, we're sort of wading through a cesspool of mediocre shit to find the true things that are even viable in UU. Should we try and quickly move certain "threats" far down where they deserve it and focus more on finetuning the upper rankings and finalizing the rankings of the B- / C+ pokes that actually deserve a mention?

Like, I really don't feel as though spending a couple of days reaffirming that yes, Ninjask is shit, when that much can pretty easily be determined through IRC / PM / just you using your head, limitless. Our focus would be much better spent debating pokemon who are actually useful in the meta and whose placements would be a source of contention (see: Rhyperior, Togetic).

One possible format: Limitless posts a list of 5-10 nominations for ranks for C and lower mons, e.g. (Ninjask: D, Gorebyss: C, Lanturn: C-, Scrafty: C+) and then people can discuss if they actually have relevant experience using any of the Pokemon on the list. For instance, I know of very few (if any) good players whos input I trust who have even used Lanturn or Hitmontop recently - there's just not going to be a whole lot of discussion that amounts to anything more than theorymon and guesswork (we just saw this with Gorebyss).

Thoughts, Limitless ?

Yeah, we can do it the second way. We'll finish up these two first.

 

[jamashawalker]

Wow I havent seen hitmontop in so long I forgot that it's sprite is standing up and not on it's head. This thing should be C- rank. You hurt yourself by picking this thing over all of the other rapid spinners. It's niche as being a bulky fighting type is now over. It becomes a liability by giving up momentum, and not threatening much even if it decides to attack rather than spin. it's priority set has some uses though. Being able to hit faster sweepers with powerful fake out + mach punch, but even that is limited to only revenge killing and checks.

I agree with Kitten Milk at this point we are just shifting through shitty mons who have no contribution to the metagame, and most players have no experience with.

EDIT: Greninja'd damn lol

 

[Wobblebuns]

Hitmontop B- --> C / C-

Introduction of Defog and much more competent spinners in Starmie and Mega-Blastoise rendered Hitmontop close to obsolete. Defensive sets struggle even more with things like SD/CB Heracross gaining more usage, and just the high concentration of physical threats that Hitmontop has to deal with (Aerodactyl, Victini, Haxorus, Honchkrow, etc.) proves to be too much to handle for most of the time. The unique Foresight+Rapid Spin combo isn't useful anymore with the diminishing need for spinblocking. Having said all of these, I did at least find more use for Hitmontop with his offensively-inclined sets. TechniTop has decent prowess for revenge-killing with Fake Out, Mach Punch and Sucker Punch at its disposal.

Overall, it's really hard for Hitmontop to find a place on a team. If you're relegating it to hazard removal duties, there's Mega-Blastoise, Starmie, and Mew to choose from. Going into an offensive route, there's Infernape, Mienshao, and Heracross to compete with.

Lanturn B- --> C+

It's a decent bulky pivot with nice utility in Thunder Wave and Heal Bell and the switches it forces make things easier for it to fulfill its task. However, it doesn't really have outstanding bulk and with its poor offenses, it can't even do that much to Pokemon it's supposed to counter so there's two ways that can happen; it'll get worn down more or get set up on. However, access to Thunder Wave and Volt Switch keeps it from being complete set-up fodder while also getting momentum to your favor. Lack of reliable recovery is of course a letdown, but it can afford a RestTalk set to compensate. (Mega-Ampharos is much better though who sports better bulk and almost the same set of key resistances in Flying-, and Fire-type moves; needless to say that it also packs a punch)

 

[Meru]

Can we move Nidoqueen back up to A-... and maybe even A? It's definitely better than Nidoking in this meta, as its bulk lets it be much more sturdy to hold up against things like Crobat, Haxorus EQ and Scarf Hydreigon's Draco Meteor. It even pairs gloriously with Scarf Hydreigon. Since SD Lucario is able to set up on anything Hydreigon uses, Nidoqueen is able to stop any Luke sweep cold as long as its at full health, resetting momentum in favor of the Hydreigon user if Luke tries to set up. This isn't even mentioning any Black Sludge sets, which are also pretty damn good on stall right now.

I also think Mega Blastoise and Crobat need to go A+, as they're amazing at hazard removal and being good bulky checks to popular wallbreakers. There's a lot more changes I'd suggest but I think those three are a good start to making the rankings much more accurate of the current metagame.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Been a while since I last made a post here, but here we go.

Crobat (A) -> A+ | Seconding Meru on this one. Crobat is an excellent hazard remover and stallbreaker, having a defensively great Poison/Flying-type that allows it to help the tier's dominant Dragon-types, Hydreigon and Haxorus, by beating Aromatisse/Florges and having great matchups against many common attackers, including Heracross, Infernape and Alakazam. 85/80/80 bulk isn't too shabby considering its large amount of resistances, three of which are double. Its insane 130 Speed is another pro to this Pokémon and it puts this Speed to good use with its powerful Brave Bird move; while only having 90 Attack, the general physical frailty of many top-tier attackers makes Brave Bird an excellent tool for Crobat. Its weaknesses to Rock-, Electric- and Psychic-type moves suck (Ice too, but that's less common), but overall Crobat has become a much more solid Pokémon in UU. Crobat for A+.

Hitmontop (B-) -> C- | Agreeing with this drop. Definitely so. Hitmontop struggles to find a position as both a Fighting-type and hazard remover, as there are just far better Pokémon available in both regards. It's not terribly bulky due to its low 50 HP and it really doesn't deal as much damage compared to Heracross, Infernape and Mienshao. This thing should already drop to C-, if not D for being horrendously outclassed in every regard.http://www.smogon.com/forums/members/meru.1138/

 

[Stef0w]

I support Meru's bumps, Crobat is a based god in this meta, wha with brave bird being awesome for revenging huge threat's, and a fst taunt being clutch as fuq, actually just had this game, where crobat saved my arse several times. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-152940089

Hitmontop: havent played against him too often, since forrtress/donphan/mega blastoise/every defogger does his job better, since they can actually beat spinblockers and stuff, intimidate is pretty awesome, so maybe when using a volt-turn team? C RANK would suffice.'

Lanturn: I swear to god, there is a least 15 cletics in UU currently, and I think lanturn has enough to stick out. It can have one of two immunities, and decent bulk, and scald is pretty gay, but it's resist's arent quite as useful as it's fairy brother's. B- Is fine, as it certainly has a niece, but it often stuggles to not be picked by other mons.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

top has like a pretty bad time in a meta where he simply cant hold up well against most top threats anymore. he's not exactly unviable, since spin and foresight and intimidate means he can still do something, but otherwise he's just outclassed by the many, many other options for hazard removal (such as starmie, crobat, megastoise etc). at most a C rank.

 

[canasian]

I feel like we were either too enthusiastic about "deflation" in the beginning of the re-ranking or are losing sight of that plan now. There's no way that Lanturn is on the same level as Raikou (as a few people suggesting to keep it in B- imply), and I think it's worse than Yanmega and Ditto too.

Hitmontop really doesn't have much of a niche in the tier either, with Mega Blastoise, Starmie, Donphan, Forretress, and all of the Defoggers outclassing it as either an offensive or defensive hazard remover. Hell, even regular Blastoise outdoes it with equal access to Foresight+Rapid Spin (which is outclassed by simply using Mega Launcher Dark Pulse).

Both of these 'mons should be D or unranked imo

 

[Limitless]

Okay, I made a lot of changes to the A+ to A- ranks. I'd list them all here, but it would be about the same as you just looking at the list yourself...

Hitmontop and Lanturn are moving down to C rank. The rest of the B- Pokemon will be up for discussion. After an ample period of time (deemed by me), I will just go ahead and rank them all. But please, try and make an effort to post about them.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I guess I should propose a few changes to B- Rank.

-> D/off the list: This thing is just bad. Yeah it has Speed Boost+Baton Pass but a massive Stealth Rock weakness and being really predictable are not good things for it. Baton Passing sets are kinda gimmicky in general, as we have seen with the recent drop of Gorebyss, and Ninjask is worse than Gorebyss and in general isn't a good Pokemon. I haven't seen anyone use it to any success at all either, which says a lot about it.

->C+: I like Slurpuff, but I feel like B- is a little bit too generous for it. Its biggest problem is that it has a bit of trouble setting up. It's a pretty monstrous sweeper that can end games easily, but only if it manages to set up. Belly Drum sets are handled well by Aggron, and Calm Mind sets are not as immediately threatening as the Belly Drum set. Also, Unburden's mechanics mean that Slurpuff only has one shot at sweeping; if it's forced out while trying to sweep, it's over, which somewhat limits its usefulness. It's definitely a threat and is viable but C+ is probably more appropriate here.

->B: Basically the best Sticky Web user, it should be higher than Galvantula. It has decent bulk so it can reliably set up Webs, and also do it repeatedly over the course of the match. Can also set up Rocks too so with Shuckle you don't have to dedicate another slot to the much needed SR. Somewhat annoying with Encore or Knock Off as well as Infestation. Has a lot of problems still but it's basically the best at what it does, it's a bit better than Galv in terms of Web setting so it should be higher than the spider.

->C: Fairly situational Pokemon. It's a decent Dual Screens user that can use Dual Screens+Memento to help things like Haxorus or Infernape set up easily, and can spread paralysis. But its typing is kinda bad defensively and it has like no offensive presence so outside of one small niche it's not really worth using. It's pretty niche.

->B: This thing is surprisingly really good. In Sand, this thing is basically the ultimate revenge killer. It sweeps so well because it has good power with 110 Attack and a nice offensive movepool to basically hit everything in the tier hard: Superpower donks Aggron, Wild Charge gets at Aerodactyl, and Crunch is nice for Chandelure. With Sand up, this thing is basically impossible to revenge kill. It's pretty dependent on sand though so that's why I'm not suggesting it for higher. Its use is limited outside of one playstyle, but boy does it work so well on it. B sounds good imo.

->C+: Water Absorb is cool, and Swift Swim is kind of cool too, but this thing has a lot of competition from Swampert and Rhyperior, and other bulky SR users in general. It's not that bad but it's kind of outclassed. C+ is more appropriate here.

Just a few things that stood out to me.