canno
formerly The Reptile
both STABs are neutral though...
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- Thread starter Pikachuun
- Start date
252+ Atk Refrigerate Cloyster Spike Cannon (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 250-300 (59.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Refrigerate Cloyster Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 248-294 (59 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, Spike Cannon over Return for Cloyster imo.
That's so fucking weird. 20 * 5 = 100 and Return has a base power of 102, but Spike Cannon does more damage. I also forgot that Spike Cannon has a decent chance of getting a crit on at least one of the hits too. So yeah, use Spike Cannon.
Quagsire is hit neural by ice. But it still manages to avoid 2hko from icicle spear.
Also mega aerodactyl is good but you realise how frail it is when luxray one shots it with quick attack. It's a shame luxray isn't a little faster that it can sweep with facade.
252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Luxray Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 307-361 (101.6 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Luxray Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 344-407 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
the only problem is ground types which is why you cover it with the rest of the team, obviously ice fang is a thing that can kill stuff like garchomp but and defencive grounds like hippowdon are a problem.
How did you get those calculations? This is what I got...
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Electric Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 236-278 (78.1 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Electric Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 816-960 (270.1 - 317.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
normal type moves have an extra 30% BP. also, it was scizor for the second calc
My one of my favorite sets to use
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Sky Plate
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thrash
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Sky Plate
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thrash
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn
Each hit gets the 30% bonus AND STAB. 20*1.3*1.5*5=195
It's the damage formula:
(note the +2 in the parenthesis, which is applied on each hit of Spike Cannon as opposed to Return's only hit)
The crit chance really isn't the main reason to use it (although it has a nice crit chance), it's the sub breaking power.
If only Cloyster got Quick Attack.
For the purposes of discussion we're ignoring the -ate bonus and STAB when comparing two normal-type moves. Makes things a lot easier.
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 247-292 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rockis seemingly good in this metagame. Thanks to access to Tough Claws Return, it's sheer power combined with a high Speed stat and then a really good primary STAB makes it one of the most powerful late-game sweepers in this metagame, although not widely used. The below set is what I use, however you can feel free to use it yourself or construct another one as you please.
@
Ability: Unnerve / Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Facade
It's not very surprising to see an Aerodactylite on an Aerodactyl this Generation, but the pre-evolving choice of ability is what matters more. Unnerve can be used to prevent the use of Berries, like perhaps Sitrus Berry, Oran Berry (Recycle L1 Magnemite because FEAR me that's why [not really]), and Chople, Babiri Berry, etc that weaken the power of super effective moves. However, the latter ability, Pressure can be used to stall out 2 PP instead of 1 for the ESpeed Zygardes. Adamant nature is because you'll outspeed everything that's not Scarfed in the metagame and anyways, ESpeed is priority, plus you need more power to ensure more KOes. Return is obvious, Dragon Claw is for them Zygarde's switching in to Dactyl (yes, you have to predict) and EQ is for Lucarios and other Steel-types. Facade is just so if you want to switch-in on a WoW or Poisoning move. In fact, if you do, you can OHKO even stuff like Clefable (252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Facade (166 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 357-421 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)!
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 364-429 (94.3 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 680-804 (181.8 - 214.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 786-926 (252.7 - 297.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 222-262 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoverySadly, Zygarde can 2HKO Megadactyl with ESpeed even before it can Dragon Claw it the second time.
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 524-618 (136.4 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 328-387 (108.6 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 252-299 (83.4 - 99%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Togekiss Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 265-313 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (because someone mentioned it)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 187-221 (61.9 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (fake out+ice shard kills)
252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 231-274 (76.4 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 306-360 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I don't think mega aero is the best mega to use in this meta, priority users are just better
Also, your calcs show that in can kill sweepers or pokemon that are weak to rock/ground, but aero can't really do anything to pokemon that will switch on him like skar/tyranitar/alomomola... you name it
and it's not like it's switching on much either, most moves ohko or 2hko it even if resisted
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 147-173 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I'm not saying it's bad, just that I'd rather use another mega
I use aero has a lead with fast taunt + double edge and i think it's the best thing it can do, it still ohkoe's most of the pokemon you mentioned (noivern, arcanine...) but it has a sash and the fastest taunt in the meta.
People should really start playing mega aggron
I can just imagine mega absol switching in on Deoxys-S and killing with Quick attack.
102*1.3*1.5=198,9 I don't know how you guys did your calcs but return is more powerfull. Spike canon is still better tho.
AWailOfATail
viva la darmz
But yea, Cloyster would've appreciated Quick Attack more ;-;It's the damage formula:
(note the +2 in the parenthesis, which is applied on each hit of Spike Cannon as opposed to Return's only hit)
I thought Pokemon got banned before it was decided that moves get banned.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Just depends on if the move itself is broken or if a single Pokemon using it is broken.
I really don't see anything broken in this meta... Extremspeed is manageable. And is one of the things that make this meta interesting and different from OU.
Dragonite and maybe Zygarde are the only Extreme Speed users that require obnoxious specialized counters to deal with. -ated Extreme Speed is powerful and goes ahead of most priority, sure, but it mostly tends to shift soft counters to hard counters. I'd sooner ban Dragonite (And maybe Zygarde) then ban Extreme Speed. The other users of it are just not amazing abusers of it, and more importantly lack the supporting elements to be truly ridiculous. It's nice that Arcanine and Entei have stronger reasons to be used than usual.
never really had a hard time with dragonite. The choice set is not really hard to counter. The ddance set is a bit trickyer but with rocks support, most ice attacks will kill him. And it's really not too hard to find a check. Any scarfer that can take a Espeed and ohko him, lucario, gardevoir, durant, cobalion... And some pokemon like mega aggron or granbull can take an Espeed + a super effective coverage move (eq or iron head) even at +2. Unaware clefable just stops him as long as you don't send him on an iron head. If that doesn't suffice, you can still run skarmory and use counter. And because the metagame is aggresive, dragonite usualy has a hard time Placing a dragon dance.
Zygarde is in my opinion a bit more complicated but alll the pokemons I mentioned can deal with him pretty well.
Also keep in mind that all pokemon that i mentioned have other uses too and are not useless if you're not facing a dragonite or a zygarde.
I really don't see dragonite or zgarde as overcentralizing as there are a lot of other threats that are extremely good (terrakion, noivern...) and other Espeed users to balance them out.
Also people seem to forget that togekiss get's Espeed too. And a mixed set could deal with at least noivern+zygarde+dragonite with SR support.
I feel like people want to make this meta more like regular OU because it's what they are used too and they think it should be like that. Which is really dumb imo. banning Espeed will ruin the meta.
Edit: I forgot to say that azumarill is a solid check too ALL Espeed users + noivern
Zygarde is in my opinion a bit more complicated but alll the pokemons I mentioned can deal with him pretty well.
Also keep in mind that all pokemon that i mentioned have other uses too and are not useless if you're not facing a dragonite or a zygarde.
I really don't see dragonite or zgarde as overcentralizing as there are a lot of other threats that are extremely good (terrakion, noivern...) and other Espeed users to balance them out.
Also people seem to forget that togekiss get's Espeed too. And a mixed set could deal with at least noivern+zygarde+dragonite with SR support.
I feel like people want to make this meta more like regular OU because it's what they are used too and they think it should be like that. Which is really dumb imo. banning Espeed will ruin the meta.
Edit: I forgot to say that azumarill is a solid check too ALL Espeed users + noivern
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Banning Extreme Speed won't 'ruin' the meta. I don't see any reason to ban it myself, but while it would be different and not necessarily better, it wouldn't be 'ruining' the meta.
The thing about Dragonite and Zygarde is, if they do get that momentum and you don't have any of the specialized counters, your entire team dies. Worse yet, even if you do have those specialized counters, you may still be dead. If you're counting on Unaware Clefable to save the day as a revenge-kill, they don't even have to switch it out: 30% of the time it Iron Heads you, you flinch, and then it just goes on to kill you. Super-duper defensive Clefable is reliably 2HKOed by Banded Iron Head, and if it's not Banded it still has a chance of 2HKOing you if you lack a healing item. Meanwhile this super defensive Clefable maxes out at less than 75% damage from a Moon Blast on non-Multiscale Dragonite: even if Stealth Rock has broken its Multiscale, it will take you out if you flinch even once. Or if your Clefable bolsters its offensive EVs, now Iron Head is a 2HKO period, no boosts, no Band.
Noivern is kinda close, since if your entire team is slow, lacks priority, and lacks meaningful resistance to it and/or bulk, it can just sweep your entire team with Boomburst alone. But it's not something where you have to make exactly the right decisions during battle, with a team designed to take it on, and then hope luck doesn't turn against you.
EDIT: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Azumarill: 369-435 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You're certainly not switching in Azumarill manually, not even with maxed HP, Special Defense, and an Assault Vest.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 186-220 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now if you've broken its Multiscale with Stealth Rock or something, yeah, Azumarill will, if it doesn't flinch and doesn't miss, handily destroy Dragonite. On the other hand, if Azumarill is forced to come in on Stealth Rock or Spikes itself, Dragonite switches from 'possible 2HKO' to 'definite 2HKO'. Also, you can flinch or miss. The only way luck can turn against Dragonite is for you to roll high and get a crit, which might (12.5% chance of a crit being a high enough roll. So a less than 1% chance event) be a OHKO through Multiscale.
No, Azumarill is not a hard counter to these Pokemon. I'd argue it isn't even a check. In general Zygarde and Dragonite lack genuine hard counters: there's nothing that can safely switch in on them and cause them to feel they must switch or die, especially Dragonite with Iron Head.
The thing about Dragonite and Zygarde is, if they do get that momentum and you don't have any of the specialized counters, your entire team dies. Worse yet, even if you do have those specialized counters, you may still be dead. If you're counting on Unaware Clefable to save the day as a revenge-kill, they don't even have to switch it out: 30% of the time it Iron Heads you, you flinch, and then it just goes on to kill you. Super-duper defensive Clefable is reliably 2HKOed by Banded Iron Head, and if it's not Banded it still has a chance of 2HKOing you if you lack a healing item. Meanwhile this super defensive Clefable maxes out at less than 75% damage from a Moon Blast on non-Multiscale Dragonite: even if Stealth Rock has broken its Multiscale, it will take you out if you flinch even once. Or if your Clefable bolsters its offensive EVs, now Iron Head is a 2HKO period, no boosts, no Band.
Noivern is kinda close, since if your entire team is slow, lacks priority, and lacks meaningful resistance to it and/or bulk, it can just sweep your entire team with Boomburst alone. But it's not something where you have to make exactly the right decisions during battle, with a team designed to take it on, and then hope luck doesn't turn against you.
EDIT: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Azumarill: 369-435 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You're certainly not switching in Azumarill manually, not even with maxed HP, Special Defense, and an Assault Vest.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 186-220 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now if you've broken its Multiscale with Stealth Rock or something, yeah, Azumarill will, if it doesn't flinch and doesn't miss, handily destroy Dragonite. On the other hand, if Azumarill is forced to come in on Stealth Rock or Spikes itself, Dragonite switches from 'possible 2HKO' to 'definite 2HKO'. Also, you can flinch or miss. The only way luck can turn against Dragonite is for you to roll high and get a crit, which might (12.5% chance of a crit being a high enough roll. So a less than 1% chance event) be a OHKO through Multiscale.
No, Azumarill is not a hard counter to these Pokemon. I'd argue it isn't even a check. In general Zygarde and Dragonite lack genuine hard counters: there's nothing that can safely switch in on them and cause them to feel they must switch or die, especially Dragonite with Iron Head.
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4 SpA Pixilate Clefable Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and that's without LO
"Noivern is kinda close, since if your entire team is slow, lacks priority, and lacks meaningful resistance to it and/or bulk", like every top threat in every tier, duh, charizard in OU, Victini in UU, suicune in AAA... if you have aan unprepared team, you lose, simple.
"I never said that, I said check"
"In general Zygarde and Dragonite lack genuine hard counters" like some pokemon in other tiers than aren't broken, charizard in OU, Exploud in RU...
" they must switch or die, especially Dragonite with Iron Head." Maggron...
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 286-337 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it checks both.
Also i mentioned many checks. You only talked about 2.
"specialized counters" yes, because a lucario or a scarf gardevoir will only be usefull against them.
"Noivern is kinda close, since if your entire team is slow, lacks priority, and lacks meaningful resistance to it and/or bulk", like every top threat in every tier, duh, charizard in OU, Victini in UU, suicune in AAA... if you have aan unprepared team, you lose, simple.
"I never said that, I said check"
"In general Zygarde and Dragonite lack genuine hard counters" like some pokemon in other tiers than aren't broken, charizard in OU, Exploud in RU...
" they must switch or die, especially Dragonite with Iron Head." Maggron...
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 286-337 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it checks both.
Also i mentioned many checks. You only talked about 2.
"specialized counters" yes, because a lucario or a scarf gardevoir will only be usefull against them.
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD edited
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Toxic/Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Defog/Taunt/Will-O-Wisp
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Mew: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Mew: 83-99 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Mew: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Mew: 187-221 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Togekiss Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Mew: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This set primarily works as stall. With its defensive bulk, it walls the three most prominent (in my opinion) ExtremeSpeed users: Dragonite, Entei, and Lucario. It can also cripple the first and latter with Will-o-Wisp. Togekiss also fills that role, but Mew can also hold off Aerodactyl. The choice between Toxic and Will-O-Wisp dependa on what you seek to counter. Will-O-Wisp works against attackers like Dragonite, Lucario, Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Toxic works against bulkier options like Togekiss, Rest Gyarados and Entei (the latter which cant be burned :/). Noivern is a problem since it Mew cant wall it if it uses Boomburst. Noivern can also Switcheroo a Choice Item, rendering Mew useless. Taunt is also a good way to stop Mew on its tracks.
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That assumes Stealth Rock which isn't a given, especially when we're talking leads, and it also assumes Dragonite doesn't flinch you. Take away those assumptions and even a crit won't give you the KO.
My point is that Noivern can sweep a team, sure, but it requires that your team fail to fit some extremely broad demands you should probably fit to anyway. I don't consider it broken, or even all that great really.
If everything is at best a check, and the checks aren't very good at their job, and you're arguing that Dragonite is very definitely not broken... this holds together because?
I've not played RU, but it's ridiculous to claim that nothing hard-counters Charizard in OU. Just off the top of my head are Aerodactyl and Heatran.
And is Mega Aggron viable as anything other than a counter to these?
Noivern dies in one hit from Azumarill, but not Dragonite. (And my position is that Noivern is powerful but fine whereas I'm not so convinced Dragonite is balanced) Dragonite can also just use Earthquake for a guaranteed 2HKO instead. Even Azumarill coming in off a KO is not certain that it can scare off, let alone KO, Dragonite, when we're talking a build specialized to counter Dragonite.
I focused on Azumarill because you describe it as checking 'all' Extreme Speed users, which it full stop does not. I could've been really obnoxious and pointed out how easily Pikachu with Light Ball or Raichu can tear it in half. I focused on Unaware Clefable because it's one of the genuinely best answers to Dragonite -which means the fact that it can't actually be counted on stands out all the more.
The other counters you listed you provided little description and they all have problems. Scarfed Gardevoir will not OHKO Dragonite and will be OHKOed in turn by Iron Head, Durant is not a great Pokemon in general (And if it somehow proved a counter Dragonite would just run Fire Punch more often), and Cobalion is vulnerable to the standard Earthquake, is not that tough, and is not that hard hitting.
Most painfully they all run into the problem that to even resemble a counter requires you perform a switch-in while they get a free move, or sacrifice a Pokemon to allow them in freely. If Dragonite can get a 100% certain KO before you get the opportunity to force it out (Because you are forced to sacrifice to get that switch happening), and this keeps repeating, it's doing appalling damage to your team without dying.
In what universe is Lucario a counter or check to any of let alone all of Dragonite, Zygarde, or Noivern?