Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

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Frosty

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*sigh*

So I was reading something on bulbapedia and got to a point that scared the bajeesus out of me.

It regards Parental Bond.

Here is the scary paragraph:

If Present heals the target it will only strike once, but if it damages the target it will strike twice (the second strike will always damage the target). Fixed-damage moves such as Seismic Toss and Dragon Rage deal the full amount of damage for both strikes. The damage dealt by Psywave is generated separately for each strike, and the second strike's damage is not halved. Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst and Bide deal the full amount of damage for both strikes. The Pledge moves strike twice, even when used as a combination move. Struggle, Natural Gift, and Spit Up strike twice.
Luckily furteer below there is a tidbit that says "endeavor hits once". But still, I don't think I need to mention how counter and bide are massively broken when coupled with Parental Bond, right? Also fixed damage moves dealing guaranteed 20hp may also be a problem?
 
Seismic Toss does damage based on weight so it can do much more than that (Ex. vs Snorlax or Steelix is a 32 / 30 dmg hit, for 9 energy). So...
 

Geodude6

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So Speed-X posted this in the SQSA thread:
Honestly this is a little more of a suggestion, but I feel it would be really useful to add some kind of glossary of terminology, of sorts, to the Handbook to help out beginners. A lot of beginners, myself included, won't know what Weakmons, Babysitter battles, Flash battles, or flavor are unless they do some searching and/or ask a more experienced player. While yes, it is as sinple as asking, why not make things more convenient to others by adding a small section somewhere that describes what certain common / semi-commonly used terms mean.

Even if a lot of terminology is thought up on the spot, if said terminology catches on then people will need to know what it means.

If there's another thread where I can post this, do let me know...I just figured this wouldnt be too bad of a place to bring this up. So my question is, would doing this be totally out of the question?
This is a great idea that would really help out a lot of beginners. When I first started ASB, Faylion asked me to do a "flash match" and I had no idea what that was. "Weakmons" is pretty self-explanatory, but if we had a glossary of sorts, "Babysitter Battle," "Flash Match," and "Flavor" would be good additions to it if we already have one, or a good start if we don't already have one.
 
I actually don't feel that Weakmons is very self-explanatory. Are they Pokemon with a certain BST? NFEs? Pokemon with a maximum of a certain amount of moves? I see your point, though!

Also I think it would be additionally helpful to somehow define the difference between Little Cup and NFE battles, but then again this probably wasnt clear to me at first because I only really have worked in thr OU tier of battling and havent gone near LC or NF as of yet. However, thats another story for another day.

My point about NFE is that NFE can technically be anything that hasn't evolved fully, since its "Non Fully Evolved." So therefore Little Cup Pokemon would be considered NFE as well, given this definition. But I could be picking at split ends here, because I'm sure a little confusion could be solved by looking at what Pokemon go into what tier
 
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My guess is that most people know LC and NFE because NFE is self-explanatory (only not fully evolved pokemon are allowed) and LC is a tier here on Smogon. However, I agree that weakmons should be codified, either here or in the battle tower posts.
 

Geodude6

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Bide should be able to hit Ghost-types even though the NDA explicitly forbids it. It was not like this last generation (neither in-game nor in ASB), was not a change that was announced on-forum, and both Bulbapedia and Veekun state that Bide hits Ghost types (though Veekun words it as "typeless damage")

So can we change this please?


Also, Shadow Force. Its priority is currently +1/-1. I, dogfish, and Flamestrike all wish for this to be changed because, in the words of dogfish, "at the moment it's fucking bullshit and should be fixed before we release Giratina." It's obviously not a problem now, but we should fix this because this will become a problem once Giratina gets released. And because I know someone is going to counterargue with Gale Wings Fly from Talonflame, Talonflame only has 100/3/3/3/3/126 stats compared to Giratina's 125/4/5/4/5/90 or 125/5/4/5/4/90 depending on forme. Plus you can hit through Fly with Thunder and similar moves whereas you can't hit through Shadow Force.
 

Its_A_Random

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Bide should be able to hit Ghost-types even though the NDA explicitly forbids it. It was not like this last generation (neither in-game nor in ASB), was not a change that was announced on-forum, and both Bulbapedia and Veekun state that Bide hits Ghost types (though Veekun words it as "typeless damage")

So can we change this please?
Ghost-types are immune to Bide again starting Generation VI. In-game precedent. Veekun and Bulbapedia are outdated on the matter. I know this because I tested it myself.

Bide is not changing back unless it is for balance reasons.
 
Regarding Shadow Force, it also currently costs less than Fly does, despite having a higher BAP.

As for Bide, it's a confirmed mechanic change for this generation. Bulbapedia just needs to update, the page doesn't have a Gen VI section yet.
 

Birkal

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If you use Encore on a move with charge up (Skull Bash / Solar Beam), which move, if any, is encored? Encore's description seems pretty clear on this: "The target forced to repeat the last action it successfully performed (2) of its actions." Since the charge up move has not been successfully performed, I would argue that the move before charge up is encored (the last successful action). Seems pretty straightforward in my mind, but I s'pose we need some clarification for a tourney match.
 
I for one agree with Birkal's interpretation of it; I don't consider a charge up move (or a damaging evasive move for that matter) to be successfully performed until the actual hit happens (easiest way to justify this would be to point out the move can still fail even after the charge happens). Is there anyone that dissents or can we just add some clarification to the NDA and move on?
 

Frosty

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In-game iirc, the charge action is considered an action for all intentions and purposes (including encore). That line of thought has come here and if you look at battles, you will see countless examples of Solarbeam and the like being used to avoid encore and being reffed as such. It is certainly the interpretation mostly commonly used here.

Personally I prefer it. Encore is ridiculous enough as is. The more ways we have to counter it, the better.

EDIT: See how in-game treats Focus Punch and use the same result here IMO. For consistency.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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When asked on irc my opinion was that Encore affects Solarbeam on the charge up move, for the record.

Didn't at one point we have EN split between charge and striking? If it expends EN you'd think it would be encorable.
 
Oh if that's how it works in-game then yeah that's how it should be here. I never realized that was the case. Texas I've never heard of EN being split between charging and striking but that might have been changed while I was away.
 

Frosty

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at some point we had indeed decided on putting half the en on the charge and half on the attack itself. But that decision faded away later as it wasn't official or anything like that.

Should be nice to have it implemented officially BTW.
 

Birkal

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Bulbapedia said:
If Skull Bash is not fully executed, PP will not be deducted from it, and it will not count as the last move used. If the opponent uses Mirror Move during the turn that the user lowers its head, Mirror Move will copy the move that the user executed immediately before using Skull Bash (or fail if it can't).
The exact same paragraph is listed for Solar Beam as well... care to cite your sources, Frosty?

Even if you're right about ingame, this is ASB, and these two moves have been heavily revamped. We've shortened them from two turns to a one action movement... From a flavor perspective, no move has been executed, so it's pretty much borking the flavor of Encore. This decision to have Solar Beam / Skull Bash doesn't make any sense at all in my mind, from both a flavor and ingame viewpoint.
 
My opinion is that the charge phase of the move counts as initiating the move and once the move is initiated, being encored would force the mon to use the full move over and over.

Also flavorwise, how does it make any sense for the mon to forget the move it's begun and go back to its last move?
 

Frosty

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I don remember saying i had sources. My sources are the matches here and if you search around you will see it being reffed that way from hell and back.

The charge part of the move locks the target and after that you cant do a thing. No sub can change the outcome nor can encore. Venusaur wont charge up with solar Energy and then go "oh wait he liked power whip let me throw away the energy and use it". A Braviary flying up wont go back to use Superpower (oh god dont get me started on bounce). Etc. If that happens then i would be inclined to consider that the action locked was encored. Mostly from a flavor point of view.

From a competitive point of view encore is broken and new ways to get rid of it should be praised or even enforced. Not nerfed thats for sure.

Finally from ingame try encoring focus punch and see what happens. Also before you imply anything i havent done it and am not sure of what the outcome would be. But again: i have never seen your interpretation prevail while i have seen the opposite one used more than once so i am surely not alone here (see texas post). The duty of proving anything is on you not me. And it should be easy enough to recreate that experiment.

If your test ends up positive for your interpretation i would be inclined to agree then. Also i am curious at the repercussions of it since if the charge part end up not locking the action then the sub srules may have to be changed. If not then a ruling if the usage of the charged move counts for the encored actions would be needed. As well as clarification on the nda.
 
So dogfish and I decided to test this out on Showdown, obviously Showdown isn't guaranteed to be the same as in-game but at this point in time it's as good as we're gonna get. So, the results of our research:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-157552913

-The charge of Focus Punch CANNOT be Encored; using Encore while a Pokemon is charging Focus Punch results in the previous move used being encored. Point: Birkal.
-The charge of Solar Beam CAN be Encored; the Pokemon completes Solar Beam as normal on the following turn and then can only order Solar Beam the round after. Point: Frosty.

Because of the way charge-up moves work in ASB I would go with Focus Punch being the better example here since all charge-up moves in ASB charge and attack in the same action, but technically if we want to be as close to in-game as possible then I think the correct answer is to go with the Solar Beam example. Birkal and Frosty (and anyone else that feels like weighing in), thoughts?
 

Frosty

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I thought the end result would be the same with focus punch and solarbeam ._.. I suggested Focus Punch because it had enhanced priority and I wanted to see the action locking thinge.

I prefer if this goes to the booth. If both options have in-game precedence, then our choice will be based on other aspects (preferance and how it interacts with how ASB works) and I am not fond of that part being simply mod-enforced (although it can be fiated).

Focus Punch is closer to how solarbeam works here (same action) yeah, but the test estabilishes that the charge of solarbeam is considered an action to be encored. So the move isn't one single action that lasts 2 rounds in-game, but a move that consists of 2 actions. That same line of thought can be applied here, with the difference that both actions would happen on the same...uh...action (oh boy).

Also again, ASB Encore is BROKEN and any way to stop it should be praised, not nerfed IMO. If there is some in-game precedent that supports the metagame-friendly option, then I feel we should go that route.

Either way, I'd love if a decision is reached fast here. I got a tournament to run ._.. If there is no objections/opinions/mods demanding more discussion in like 48h or so I will create a voting thread.
 
I still personally prefer the feel of charge not counting as actually executing the move; it feels like the reason it is the way it is in-game is because the charge and the attack are on separate actions. But I can definitely understand the balance argument, so I'm a bit torn tbh.
 
How does this apply to dig, bounce and the like? According to that logic the pokemon should just go back to the ground and repeat it's last move.

IMO just make Solarbeam and all other "2 turns turned 1 turn in ASB" moves be encorable in the charge turn and make Focus Punch the odd one out, the exception that proves the rule.
 

Birkal

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Solar Beam / Skull Bash plays exactly like Focus Punch in ASB. I would agree that Encore is a massively powerful tool, but that's the nature of the move. If you have issues with the move, change its energy / duration / whatever. Why make its mechanics more confusing?
 

Its_A_Random

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Not a proposal or anything but why does Rebble learn Vacuum Wave at Level 0 this Generation when it did not last generation? There is nothing to suggest that it should and it only learned Vacuum Wave as a Gen IV Tutor beforehand.

This is probably a mountain of a molehill but can I please get some clarification on this (and not some shitty one liner like "Because it does")?
 
This is a relatively small thing, but there's absolutely no mention in the handbook of what happens with rewards if a player forfeits. The general consensus among people I've talked to is that it's equivalent to DQing yourself; you get nothing, and then if the match went two or more rounds your opponent gets full rewards and the ref gets whatever he would get based on the formula in the handbook, otherwise they also get nothing. However, I'd like for it to be clarified; I know forfeiting is usually frowned upon but it does still happen and having a source to reference for when it does would be nice.
We never did get any kind of resolution on this, and I've noticed a slightly bigger issue; as far as I (or Elevator Music who was also looking) can tell, there's ALSO no mention of what happens when a player is DQed, only a ref. The DQ policy is fairly well known to be that the DQed battler gets nothing and the other trainer gets full rewards, unless the battle goes less than two rounds in which case no one gets anything, but this is /never/ mentioned in the handbook. A mention of this needs to be added somewhere, and we should nail down the forfeit rules while we're at it.

Slight addendum to this from a conversation that we had in #capasb a little while back; should we consider reducing the rewards for the player not DQed in a DQ situation? This is mainly looking to prevent abuse in matches like 6v6+ where someone could get DQed or forfeit after 3 rounds and then the other person gets a bunch of extra counters for their Pokemon for relatively little work. This is particularly egregrious in 13v13 Singles (which are also particularly prone to DQ due to the ridiculous length). Three solutions were bandied about (that I can remember, feel free to bring up any I forgot):

-Go back to the old system of having only the Pokemon that fought in the battle get counters if one trainer is DQed. Note that this would have no effect on battles that are completed but where one person doesn't use all of their available Pokemon; in those cases even the Pokemon that didn't fight would still get counters. This is for DQ and forfeit only.
-Limit the amount of Pokemon that can get counters in a DQ situation. Basically say that the amount of Pokemon to get counters in a DQ/forfeit situation will be either the amount of Pokemon that fought or some arbitrary cap (say, 6), whichever is higher.
-Instead of giving the Pokemon regular counters, give 1 KOC per unused Pokemon or something similar, to be spread across the team.

Obviously numbers can be tweaked, but with 13v13 Singles being fairly popular as a way to get lots of counters it might be something we want to address pre-emptively.
 
Adding to Flamestrike's points on DQ rewards...

DQ of a Trainer, when the battle has not completed two rounds needs some flexibility, imo, to make sure that it is not exploitable.
  • If the DQ'd Trainer is active in the forum / IRC, the Ref & and Other Trainer should get full rewards.
  • If the DQ'd Trainer has a future of DQs within 2 rounds, the Ref gets partial rewards as per the handbook and the other trainer gets no rewards.
  • The DQ'd Trainer needs to face a minor setback may be on CC or UC.
Unless ofcourse the other trainer agrees not to call a DQ.

Basically the above points are to avoid trainers johning battles that they have already assumed to have lost in the first round.
 
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