:I
Geomancy Pass pls. Need to find something to stop it that fits on my team...Y u make that team denissss ;~;
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other The OU Role Comparison Project
- Thread starter Mowtom
- Start date
- Status
Geomancy Pass pls. Need to find something to stop it that fits on my team...Y u make that team denissss ;~;
Croven A few comments on your scolipede set.
1. Being taunt bait is never good. Mental herb helps a lot, but it can still be taunt bait. Should be listed as a con.
2. The ID set is NOT frail if you invest in your defenses. Thanks to speed boost, you can get an ID before most folks get an attack in, allowing you to pull off stupid crap like this.
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. +2 240 HP / 92 Def Scolipede: 168-200 (52.3 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Invest fully in defenses and not even ubers can hope to pierce your godly shell
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. +2 248 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 276-326 (85.4 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
3. You run SD OR ID, never both. ID and SD have fairly different checks and counters, and both can take a single free turn and run very far away with it.
*edit*
oops, wrong nature. Here's +2 scoli with def+ nature
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. +2 248 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 252-296 (78 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, one of the strongest SE stabs you can find anywhere fails to ohko +2 scoli.
1. Being taunt bait is never good. Mental herb helps a lot, but it can still be taunt bait. Should be listed as a con.
2. The ID set is NOT frail if you invest in your defenses. Thanks to speed boost, you can get an ID before most folks get an attack in, allowing you to pull off stupid crap like this.
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. +2 240 HP / 92 Def Scolipede: 168-200 (52.3 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Invest fully in defenses and not even ubers can hope to pierce your godly shell
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. +2 248 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 276-326 (85.4 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
3. You run SD OR ID, never both. ID and SD have fairly different checks and counters, and both can take a single free turn and run very far away with it.
*edit*
oops, wrong nature. Here's +2 scoli with def+ nature
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. +2 248 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 252-296 (78 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, one of the strongest SE stabs you can find anywhere fails to ohko +2 scoli.
Last edited:
Thanks for the feedback WebBowser ! Changes have been implemented, and the Ho-Oh thing surprised me @.@ Anyway, changes to the Scolipede set have been implemented, and thanks for replying.
Screenshotted from the Viability Ranking thread. I was not wrong, and my exact examples were quoted by an obviously respected player, TRC .
A definition clarification:
Wallbreakers has always been a term used to offensive Pokemon that are strong enough to dent bulkier Pokemon in general so that sweepers can setup late-game and be able to steamroll through otherwise checks that have been weakened. Examples include Kyurem-B, Landorus, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Charizard Y.
Stallbreakers are Pokemon that fare very well against stall teams, through both passive and aggressive methods. Passive stallbreakers include things like Sableye and Taunt + Will-o-Wisp Gengar. Aggressive stallbreakers are things like Mega Heracross, CM Suicune, and Mega Gardevoir. The terms are similar because walls are typically seen on Stall teams, but not always. Likewise, Stallbreakers are generally able to trouble a large amount of a Stall team, whereas wallbreakers trouble specific bulky Pokemon (but can still be hard to switch into). Mega Mawile is a wallbreaker thanks to its amazing power but slow Speed, however it isn't a very good stallbreaker as it can't defeat well played stall teams once the set has been determined. Mega Charizard Y is also a good wallbreaker with the special set, as it breaks common walls such as Mega Venusaur, Quagsire, and Amoonguss. However, since it can't break past Chansey, it isn't the best stallbreaker (unless it is running the mixed set which is designed to stallbreak as it can break Chansey). Sableye is a stallbreaker since it troubles Stall teams with its priority Taunt, Recover, and Will-o-Wisp, but it isn't a wallbreaker as it lacks the ability to muscle past Pokemon through the use of powerful attacks. In general, a lot of wallbreakers are also stallbreakers, but not always, and a large amount of stallbreakers aren't wallbreakers.
Hope this helps.
Wallbreakers has always been a term used to offensive Pokemon that are strong enough to dent bulkier Pokemon in general so that sweepers can setup late-game and be able to steamroll through otherwise checks that have been weakened. Examples include Kyurem-B, Landorus, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Charizard Y.
Stallbreakers are Pokemon that fare very well against stall teams, through both passive and aggressive methods. Passive stallbreakers include things like Sableye and Taunt + Will-o-Wisp Gengar. Aggressive stallbreakers are things like Mega Heracross, CM Suicune, and Mega Gardevoir. The terms are similar because walls are typically seen on Stall teams, but not always. Likewise, Stallbreakers are generally able to trouble a large amount of a Stall team, whereas wallbreakers trouble specific bulky Pokemon (but can still be hard to switch into). Mega Mawile is a wallbreaker thanks to its amazing power but slow Speed, however it isn't a very good stallbreaker as it can't defeat well played stall teams once the set has been determined. Mega Charizard Y is also a good wallbreaker with the special set, as it breaks common walls such as Mega Venusaur, Quagsire, and Amoonguss. However, since it can't break past Chansey, it isn't the best stallbreaker (unless it is running the mixed set which is designed to stallbreak as it can break Chansey). Sableye is a stallbreaker since it troubles Stall teams with its priority Taunt, Recover, and Will-o-Wisp, but it isn't a wallbreaker as it lacks the ability to muscle past Pokemon through the use of powerful attacks. In general, a lot of wallbreakers are also stallbreakers, but not always, and a large amount of stallbreakers aren't wallbreakers.
Hope this helps.
Last edited:
Let's revive this thread, shall we?
Mega Venusaur vs. Amoongus as bulky Grass-Types
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/ 240 Def/ 16 Spe
-Giga Drain
-Sludge Bomb
-Synthesis/Leech Seed
-Hidden Power Fire/Sleep Powder/Leech Seed
PROS:
-Better bulk
-More power
-Reliable recovery (albeit low PP)
-Thick Fat gives it 2 fewer weaknesses (probably the best thing about Venu, because it allows it to take on so many more threats)
CONS:
-Must rely on Sleep Powder's shaky accuracy in order to cripple switch-ins
-Lack of item to give it passive recovery (outside of Leech Seed)
-4 Moveslot Syndrome (I say con here because the unpredictability doesn't help Mega Venusaur in the slightest)
-Takes up a Mega Slot
Amoongus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/ 136 Def/ 128 Sp. Def
-Spore
-Giga Drain
-Clear Smog
-Foul Play/Hidden Power Fire
PROS:
-100% accurate sleep-inducing move in Spore (I could literally list this 3 more times, that's how amazing it is…)
-Can eliminate stat boosts with Clear Smog (effectively cripples BD Azu :3)
-Can hold an item--granting it passive recovery
-Regenerator to provide free healing after it's done tanking (I call it defensive momentum)
-Doesn't take up Mega Slot
CONS:
-Less bulk
-Much, MUCH slower (although less important as a defensive mon)
-Significantly less power
Comparing the Two:
While Mega Venusaur can no doubt tank hits better, it doesn't provide nearly as much overall utility as Amoongus (and when it does, it's inconsistent). The main--albeit obvious--reason to use Amoongus over Mega Venu is Spore--but I cannot overstate how good Spore can be. The threat of Spore forces your opponent to make sacrifices that Mega Venusaur only forces 75% of the time IF IT RUNS SLEEP POWDER. Amoongus' ability to clear stat boosts is extremely valuable, and Regenerator is such an insane ability; being able to tank a hit and recover the damage for free is such an amazing asset.
In the end it boils down to what your team most needs.
Do you need a wall to blindly take hits? Venusaur's got your back.
Do you need something to cripple key members of your opponent's team? Amoongus is your man.
EDIT: I'm just gonna add what WebBowser said below to the end here.
Mega Venusaur vs. Amoongus as bulky Grass-Types
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/ 240 Def/ 16 Spe
-Giga Drain
-Sludge Bomb
-Synthesis/Leech Seed
-Hidden Power Fire/Sleep Powder/Leech Seed
PROS:
-Better bulk
-More power
-Reliable recovery (albeit low PP)
-Thick Fat gives it 2 fewer weaknesses (probably the best thing about Venu, because it allows it to take on so many more threats)
CONS:
-Must rely on Sleep Powder's shaky accuracy in order to cripple switch-ins
-Lack of item to give it passive recovery (outside of Leech Seed)
-4 Moveslot Syndrome (I say con here because the unpredictability doesn't help Mega Venusaur in the slightest)
-Takes up a Mega Slot
Amoongus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/ 136 Def/ 128 Sp. Def
-Spore
-Giga Drain
-Clear Smog
-Foul Play/Hidden Power Fire
PROS:
-100% accurate sleep-inducing move in Spore (I could literally list this 3 more times, that's how amazing it is…)
-Can eliminate stat boosts with Clear Smog (effectively cripples BD Azu :3)
-Can hold an item--granting it passive recovery
-Regenerator to provide free healing after it's done tanking (I call it defensive momentum)
-Doesn't take up Mega Slot
CONS:
-Less bulk
-Much, MUCH slower (although less important as a defensive mon)
-Significantly less power
Comparing the Two:
While Mega Venusaur can no doubt tank hits better, it doesn't provide nearly as much overall utility as Amoongus (and when it does, it's inconsistent). The main--albeit obvious--reason to use Amoongus over Mega Venu is Spore--but I cannot overstate how good Spore can be. The threat of Spore forces your opponent to make sacrifices that Mega Venusaur only forces 75% of the time IF IT RUNS SLEEP POWDER. Amoongus' ability to clear stat boosts is extremely valuable, and Regenerator is such an insane ability; being able to tank a hit and recover the damage for free is such an amazing asset.
In the end it boils down to what your team most needs.
Do you need a wall to blindly take hits? Venusaur's got your back.
Do you need something to cripple key members of your opponent's team? Amoongus is your man.
EDIT: I'm just gonna add what WebBowser said below to the end here.
Last edited:
;lmlm I think you are underestimating just how important those -2 weaknesses are for venu. Fire and ice are two of the best offensive types in the game, and the difference between SE and not SE is huge for defensive mons. For example, venu can fairly easily swap into mamoswine and threaten it out, which amoonguss cannot do at all. Venu can also serve as a megazard-x check with EQ or sleep powder (granted, a shaky one), which amoon cannot dream of doing. Many water and electric types like Keldeo, Raikou, Manectric and Suicune are liable to run surprise ice type coverage to prevent grass types from hard countering them (no, crocune is not the only suicune set), and m-venu circumvents that. M-venu is considerably less self sufficient then amoonguss (for starters venu would greatly appreciate wish support), but don't undersell just how important his ability is. I'd say that's at least as good as a 100% accurate sleep move, and that's saying a lot.
MEGA GYARADOS vs. GYARADOS as DD sweepers
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang / Substitute
Gyarados @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Substitute / Earthquake
Mega Gyarados:
+ Mold Breaker - literally the best thing about Mega Gyarados. Uses Mold Breaker to wreck its would-be counters, namely Levitate Rotom-W and Unaware Quagsire. Also gets past Multiscale, Sturdy, Thick Fat, and Water Absorb/Storm Drain making it hard to rely on anything but sheer bulk and typing to stop it.
+ Bulk - this goes hand-in-hand with its loss of the flying-type, which allows Mega Gyara to eat up a thunderbolt / draco from mons like AV Raikou and LO Latios and secure the all-important DD. 95 / 109 / 130 defenses are great for a water-type, making set up very easy at any time; Intimidate only adds to its physical bulk.
+ Type Versatility - Mega Gyarados' secret weapon is a well-timed mega-evo, or the lack thereof. Pre-Mega Gyara gets free set up on Scizor, non-HP Electric Keldeo, Greninja. Mega Gyara gets free set up on Bisharp, TTar, even Lati@s if necessary.
+ Niche Support Roles - Mold Breaker Taunt, bulky Restalk gain some niche viability over the base forme.
- Type Versatility - lol the double-edged sword. Mega Gyarados just gained a vulnerability to scarf Lando's U-Turn & EQ, Keldeo's Secret Sword, Azumarill's Play Rough, Breloom's Mach Punch... M-Gyara requires quite a lot of threats to be removed before it can successfully sweep.
- Hard Walls - it can get past Unaware Quagsire and Levitating Rotom-W now, but still can't do anything about Ferrothorn / Slowbro / Skarmory / similar bulky waters & grass-types. Note though that sub over Ice Fang helps it against Slowbro, but loses out on hitting Flying/Dragons.
- Status Vulnerability - prankster T-Wave or Rotom-W's WoW render him basically useless; Toxic stall cuts his sweep short.
Gyarados:
+ Dual STAB - bounce allows Gyarados to beat Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, Mega Heracross, and other monsters that block the Mega from sweeping. Common misconception: Mold Breaker Ice Fang allows M-Gyara to beat M-Venusaur. This isn't true; Giga Drain will KO Gyara first in almost every scenario and spread. Bounce, meanwhile, turns opposing M-Venusaur into another free moxie boost.
+ No Mega stone - means it can be paired with other megas like Heracross, who completely decimates Gyarados' main counters (Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physical walls generally), or Mega Mane for type synergy, Mega Zard X for pressuring each other's checks, etc.
+ Support Item - lefties is good for passive recovery, but lum berry is godly. +1 lum berry gyara completely trolls opposing t-wave thundurus. status bait w/ sub can often mean +2 behind a sub against defensive 'mons like Mew & Gliscor & Chansey that want to cripple gyara w/ status before switching out.
- Hard Walls - it can get past M-Venusaur and Keldeo now, but gets hard walled by Rotom-W and unaware Quagsire. still can't do anything about Ferrothorn / Slowbro / Skarmory.
- Exploitable Weaknesses - 4x electric-weak and the permanent rocks weakness can make it harder to function late-game, if the opponent's checks haven't been removed.
- Less Power & Natural Bulk - compare 125 to 155 base attack, and 95 / 79 / 100 defenses to 95 / 109 / 130. tbh this is less relevant in practice than on paper, as the goal is to accumulate boosts with DD + moxie. lum berry gyarados sets up more easily on defensive mons by baiting status, while mega gyarados sets up much more easily on offensive threats by tanking even SE hits.
-x-
Choose your counters by choosing your gyarados forme. Both are deadly, effective DD sweepers that can wreak havoc in the current meta. They have different counters (e.g. only mega gyarados beats rotom-w, while base forme gyarados is better equipped to beat mega venusaur) and different advantages (e.g. mold breaker shits on quagsire-backed stall, while base forme gyarados can pair up with another mega sweeper for maximum destruction).
As an aside, I think that too many players hit the mega-evo button immediately on instinct, when staying in base forme offers important advantages to help break the opposing team.
Personally I prefer moxie lum berry as it gets easy opportunities to accumulate boosts & plow through mid- to late-game. I'd recommend trying it out over the mega & keeping the mega slot open. Flying/Water gyara offers great synergy with a lot of interesting 'mons, as it has only the two weaknesses to electric/rock & offers a whole slew of resistances.
if you couldn't tell gyarados is my all-time favorite mon
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang / Substitute
Gyarados @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Substitute / Earthquake
Mega Gyarados:
+ Mold Breaker - literally the best thing about Mega Gyarados. Uses Mold Breaker to wreck its would-be counters, namely Levitate Rotom-W and Unaware Quagsire. Also gets past Multiscale, Sturdy, Thick Fat, and Water Absorb/Storm Drain making it hard to rely on anything but sheer bulk and typing to stop it.
+ Bulk - this goes hand-in-hand with its loss of the flying-type, which allows Mega Gyara to eat up a thunderbolt / draco from mons like AV Raikou and LO Latios and secure the all-important DD. 95 / 109 / 130 defenses are great for a water-type, making set up very easy at any time; Intimidate only adds to its physical bulk.
+ Type Versatility - Mega Gyarados' secret weapon is a well-timed mega-evo, or the lack thereof. Pre-Mega Gyara gets free set up on Scizor, non-HP Electric Keldeo, Greninja. Mega Gyara gets free set up on Bisharp, TTar, even Lati@s if necessary.
+ Niche Support Roles - Mold Breaker Taunt, bulky Restalk gain some niche viability over the base forme.
- Type Versatility - lol the double-edged sword. Mega Gyarados just gained a vulnerability to scarf Lando's U-Turn & EQ, Keldeo's Secret Sword, Azumarill's Play Rough, Breloom's Mach Punch... M-Gyara requires quite a lot of threats to be removed before it can successfully sweep.
- Hard Walls - it can get past Unaware Quagsire and Levitating Rotom-W now, but still can't do anything about Ferrothorn / Slowbro / Skarmory / similar bulky waters & grass-types. Note though that sub over Ice Fang helps it against Slowbro, but loses out on hitting Flying/Dragons.
- Status Vulnerability - prankster T-Wave or Rotom-W's WoW render him basically useless; Toxic stall cuts his sweep short.
Gyarados:
+ Dual STAB - bounce allows Gyarados to beat Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, Mega Heracross, and other monsters that block the Mega from sweeping. Common misconception: Mold Breaker Ice Fang allows M-Gyara to beat M-Venusaur. This isn't true; Giga Drain will KO Gyara first in almost every scenario and spread. Bounce, meanwhile, turns opposing M-Venusaur into another free moxie boost.
+ No Mega stone - means it can be paired with other megas like Heracross, who completely decimates Gyarados' main counters (Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physical walls generally), or Mega Mane for type synergy, Mega Zard X for pressuring each other's checks, etc.
+ Support Item - lefties is good for passive recovery, but lum berry is godly. +1 lum berry gyara completely trolls opposing t-wave thundurus. status bait w/ sub can often mean +2 behind a sub against defensive 'mons like Mew & Gliscor & Chansey that want to cripple gyara w/ status before switching out.
- Hard Walls - it can get past M-Venusaur and Keldeo now, but gets hard walled by Rotom-W and unaware Quagsire. still can't do anything about Ferrothorn / Slowbro / Skarmory.
- Exploitable Weaknesses - 4x electric-weak and the permanent rocks weakness can make it harder to function late-game, if the opponent's checks haven't been removed.
- Less Power & Natural Bulk - compare 125 to 155 base attack, and 95 / 79 / 100 defenses to 95 / 109 / 130. tbh this is less relevant in practice than on paper, as the goal is to accumulate boosts with DD + moxie. lum berry gyarados sets up more easily on defensive mons by baiting status, while mega gyarados sets up much more easily on offensive threats by tanking even SE hits.
-x-
Choose your counters by choosing your gyarados forme. Both are deadly, effective DD sweepers that can wreak havoc in the current meta. They have different counters (e.g. only mega gyarados beats rotom-w, while base forme gyarados is better equipped to beat mega venusaur) and different advantages (e.g. mold breaker shits on quagsire-backed stall, while base forme gyarados can pair up with another mega sweeper for maximum destruction).
As an aside, I think that too many players hit the mega-evo button immediately on instinct, when staying in base forme offers important advantages to help break the opposing team.
Personally I prefer moxie lum berry as it gets easy opportunities to accumulate boosts & plow through mid- to late-game. I'd recommend trying it out over the mega & keeping the mega slot open. Flying/Water gyara offers great synergy with a lot of interesting 'mons, as it has only the two weaknesses to electric/rock & offers a whole slew of resistances.
if you couldn't tell gyarados is my all-time favorite mon
Last edited:
If I came across as saying Amoongus outclassed Mega Venu, then I apologize. I'm trying to get more people to use it, because it can do a lot for your team. I completely understand--I believe I said earlier--that Venu can take more damage and handle more threats. But they both share a significant enough chunk of roles that I believe they are comparable.
Oh, I wasn't implying that at all. I just was saying that I think you were understating one of m-venu's greatest strengths. You are absolutely correct that amoon's access to spore and regenerator are huge pluses, and those two things alone make it completely OU viable. One thing that you can add is that amoon actually requires very little team support to function, thanks largely to regen. It doesn't need hazards off the field, it doesn't need wish support, it has it's own status effects (though it would kill for leech seed), it doesn't really need a cleric, it doesn't need a lot of things and that makes it a valuable asset not only to stall but to balance and bulky offense as well.
Just trying to make sure that each mon gets a complete evaluation, that's all. Great evaluation overall.
Thanks for the feedback WebBowser ! I've added your post to the end of mine. I 100% agree that Amoongus requires practically no support, although you could say that Venusaur is relatively self-sufficient as well. The only thing Venu really wants as far as team support is a cleric to heal off Scald burns (can work around it with RestTalk). Also, I know it's somewhat theorymonning but Leech Seed on Amoongus would make it SO much better than it already is.
- Status