Metagame NP: Stage 3: Tunak Tunak Tun

[tutterydiglett]

Thanks for the reply. :)

Agreed. A well played Zoroark is still certainly an offensive threat even without factoring in Illusion. However, I find Sticky Hold Gastrodon to be the best switch-in. It isn't 2HKOed by Knock Off, has Recover, and gets to keep its Leftovers no matter what. Most of the Zoroark sets I encountered were mixed with Flamethrower, Knock Off, and Sucker Punch. I've heard of Grass Knot being used on Zoroark and I kept it in mind while using Gastrodon but I never saw it, not even once.

If a 'mon forces players to run things like Sticky Hold Gastro and other sets in order to be able to deal with it, doesn't that technically make that 'mon "broken"?

Not sure if you're implying if Zoroak is not broken, but just my 2 cents.

 

[Ares]

Thanks for the reply. :)

Agreed. A well played Zoroark is still certainly an offensive threat even without factoring in Illusion. However, I find Sticky Hold Gastrodon to be the best switch-in. It isn't 2HKOed by Knock Off, has Recover, and gets to keep its Leftovers no matter what. Most of the Zoroark sets I encountered were mixed with Flamethrower, Knock Off, and Sucker Punch. I've heard of Grass Knot being used on Zoroark and I kept it in mind while using Gastrodon but I never saw it, not even once.

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 164-192 (38.4 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So I take the same stance as you when it comes to zoro, but something to keep in mind if Gastro is your main switchin is that Zoro likes to run grass knot for Rhyperior and to an extent Gastrodon.
0 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 312-369 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Goddess Briyella]

If a 'mon forces players to run things like Sticky Hold Gastro and other sets in order to be able to deal with it, doesn't that technically make that 'mon "broken"?

Not sure if you're implying if Zoroak is not broken, but just my 2 cents.

Gastrodon is good apart from just switching into Zoroark (without Grass Knot)... it's not just something niche to deal with Zoroark alone like Soundproof Electrode is for Yanmega.

And if I wasn't clear about Zoroark, I find it rather manageable to play against. I used it myself and didn't like it.

So I take the same stance as you when it comes to zoro, but something to keep in mind if Gastro is your main switchin is that Zoro likes to run grass knot for Rhyperior and to an extent Gastrodon.
0 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 312-369 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yea, I'm aware it exists. I just never encountered it myself, and Gastrodon was only one of the things I experimented with. :)

 

[DittoCrow]

If a 'mon forces players to run things like Sticky Hold Gastro and other sets in order to be able to deal with it, doesn't that technically make that 'mon "broken"?

Not sure if you're implying if Zoroak is not broken, but just my 2 cents.

Just want to make it clear that it's not a problem if people find new Pokemon or sets to deal with a top threat. It's a part of the infinitely changing metagame. It only becomes a problem if you have to run random shit Pokemon that do nothing aside from countering the threat. Stuff like Togetic and Gastrodon are good Pokemon outside of countering the suspects. "Forcing" you to run different, under used threats does not make a Pokemon broken.

 

[Lemonade]

Don't forget like the strongest water moves are from Clawitzer, Specs Exploud, Sharpedo, and like Heliolisk. Physical Sharp can't 2hko and the rest all have other moves that Gastro can't take, so Sticky Hold is not even that unviable. (Gastro doesn't like Scald burn, but it's better than Toxic).

 

[Magnemite]

Gastrodon isn't all that great in RU to begin with tbh, but running a set without Storm Drain, which is probably the biggest reason to use it at all, seems pretty silly to me. Losing a Scald immunity and the ability to switch into stuff like Slowking relatively easily really doesn't seem worth it just to check something that can just beat you with a coverage move if it wants to anyway.

 

[PowerStyler]

actually, sticky hold isn't that important since gastrodon has recovery and after losing its leftovers:

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 164-192 (38.4 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 109-130 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

not even a 3HKO after the first Knock Off, Gastrodon has Recover, and unboosted Scald is a 2HKO. Of course, Gastrodon isn't the best Zoroark check because it loses to any set with Grass Knot, but if you want to use it, Storm Drain is better overall.

 

[Molk]

Just posting to notify everyone that the voting thread is up! http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-stage-3-suspect-voting.3514983/#post-5669485

EDIT: anyone who got the insufficient privileges notification before, try now

 

[Arcueid]

Yanmega: Yanmega can run 2 effective sets. Tinted Lens Specs punches holes through stall and is insanely powerful. (can't get calcs now as I am on a phone) The Speed Boost variant is quite difficult to revenge kill and is quite powerful aswell. Registeel and Doublade, and Magneton are by far it's only counters in the meta. On the ladder, The Speed Boost variant is more common and becomes difficult to revengekill.
At +1 It speed ties with scarfers and at +2 it outspends all.
Ban Yanmega

Zoroark: It's offensive stats and movepool are great. It has a high speed stat which is also great. Illusion is also great. Zoroark is extremely powerful in the meta and with a buff to Knock Off, it is extremely dangerous. Illusion allows Zoroark to disguise itself as the last member of the team such as Doublade or even Delphox and even Gligar or Golbat. It's access to Nasty Plot and SD makes it truly dangerous and unhealthy for the meta.
Ban Zoroark

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Thanks for the reply. :)

Agreed. A well played Zoroark is still certainly an offensive threat even without factoring in Illusion. However, I find Sticky Hold Gastrodon to be the best switch-in. It isn't 2HKOed by Knock Off, has Recover, and gets to keep its Leftovers no matter what. Most of the Zoroark sets I encountered were mixed with Flamethrower, Knock Off, and Sucker Punch. I've heard of Grass Knot being used on Zoroark and I kept it in mind while using Gastrodon but I never saw it, not even once.

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 164-192 (38.4 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



Agreed here too, but it is also not always simple to maintain your preferred disguise when using Zoroark. You would have to have at least something or a few things in mind when deciding which Pokemon to use for this purpose, and the Illusion will be ideal for that specific thing and then not be necessarily ideal for every other scenario. While it's true that you can use the 50/50 early on in the match when both Zoroark and its disguise are both at full health and free of status, it's not a ruse that you can continuously use with ease. During the time that it's safer for Zoroark to apply this mind game, it is up to the player to make conservative choices that will minimize the chances of casualties. A lot of this is prediction-based and depends on the actions of both players; while you can't 100% ascertain whether it's Zoroark or not in an early game scenario such as this, the player using Zoroark is not 100% safe either, given its frailty. One wrong prediction is often fatal for Zoroark regardless of the pressure it is able to apply there, and using it to scout with U-turn also ruins the disguise unless the Pokemon it's disguised as also has U-turn and has a similar damage output with it (this can be calculated by the opposing player to make sure). The point, as far as I'm able to tell, is that Zoroark takes skill and prediction to use properly, especially since Team Preview exists.

After its preferred teammate to copy (chosen by the Zoroark user) has fainted or even taken damage, that's it for the whole ruse. Then, Zoroark can only copy teammates that it wasn't intended to copy, and in non-linear matches, whether this is effective or not is in the hands of the prediction of the players and luck, which runs out as Zoroark's teammates simply take damage.



Agreed. It can be a problem if the battle doesn't play out in the player's favor, which depends on too many factors to have that be in the hands of the player unless they predict everything perfectly without problems, which rewards the player's skill and supports the idea that Zoroark takes skill to use properly.

SD Zoroark easily overpowers and kills Gastrodon, Specs/NP takes advantage of the lack of SDef investment you have, and mixed with Grass Knot 2HKOs on the switch.

tl;dr- Gastro is not reliable

As has already been stressed enough in this thread already, Illusion just breaks zoro for me. What's already a potent threat even w/o illusion suddenly becomes a whole world harder to...face? Maybe? what if my opponent is actually bringing in his SD Virizion? Can i reliably even bring in my doublade to beat virizion anymore? If this thing is a zoroark, it will run through my team. These thoughts still run rampant through my head as i try to figure out a gameplan against my opponent. I normally find hazard control optimal and necessary on roark teams, and the argument that hazards make it easy to scope out zoro although valid, is completely dependent on:

a. The opponent not having a spinner/defogger
b. The opponent not spinning/defogging which rarely happens unless they
c. play their hazard remover terribly

Now maybe it's just me being unable to outplay coinflips, but it seems like this is one of the situations where I can actually use the word 50/50 right: You either win or you lose (your check/counter) right there. There are no ifs ands or buts about it, that is exactly what happens. When I say zoroark has no counters, I mean zoroark+any pokemon it can successfully disguise have no counters if you predict wrong. For those arguing that zoroark is easy to recognize when it's taken a round of life orb damage, it doesn't always have to run life orb, and my main retort is: all it needs is one right prediction to seriously screw up a team, not necessarily for a sweep of it's own, but for another mon in the team to sweep, and you only have a non-no guard dynamicpunch chance of winning the matchup.

My opinions on yanmega have been stressed to death and back in this thread, but now that I have a bit more experience with offense I can reliably say that LO Speed boost yanmega is a pain to face for most common hyper offensive teams because of it's ability to outspeed and deal usually preetty major damage to anything not named registeel/golbat/aromatisse on HO..,,,,, (I would say togetic but togepass offense is actually good though)

 

[EonX]

Something I ended up disguising Zoroark as a lot was Slowking. This may sound like a really odd choice considering Slowking is viewed more as a tank, but also keep in mind that Slowking is much, much easier to keep at full health throughout the match than most other Pokemon. The fact that I also ran Support Cobalion with Taunt + Volt Switch also gave me ample chances to sneak Zoroark in once Cobalion forced out a random support Pokemon, and considering that Cobalion lures in Fire-types, especially after it Taunts (immediate signal it lacks Stone Edge) it's really easy to bring Zoro in off the Volt Switch disguised as Slowking as the Fire-type switches in. There were quite a few matches that I won this way since it was an easy SD opportunity since the opponent had to respect Slowking's defensive prowess and switch out.

The other side of this is using Slowking defensively. So long as I could keep Slowking in the last living slot on the team near the end of the match and at least at 67% upon its final switch out, the opponent would have no way of knowing it's Zoroark late-game due to Regenerator. (unless Slowking was afflicted with a status ailment) Now, obviously, this is easier said than done, but considering the fact you really have to use prior damage to identify Zoroark late-game, it was a cool way to still pull off the RUse late, even in the presence of hazards since Zoro and King take the same damage from all hazards.

 

[Molk]

Oh by the way i just wanted to let everyone know in advance: the NP: thread next round will have no immediate suspects, and will be handled a little differently from the previous ones. If you want an example on how the new NP thread might look, go to Closed Forums and take a look at RU's thread for round 16, possibly with some small changes. If you guys want anything in particular in the near future just let me or former RU mod DittoCrow know.

I'd also like to announce that both Yanmega and Zoroark have majorities at the moment.

 

[Afro Smash]

this is why i hate aussies... rest in peace zoro

 

[Explorer]

Yeah I'd like to note that the discussion has overwhelmingly been about the suspects. They're not the only 2 Pokes that exist in RU. There are other hidden gems and other things to talk about, and I feel like that conversation got knocked over. Maybe the next time RU has a suspect(s) that discussion can get a separate thread...

 

[aVocado]

Yeah I'd like to note that the discussion has overwhelmingly been about the suspects. They're not the only 2 Pokes that exist in RU. There are other hidden gems and other things to talk about, and I feel like that conversation got knocked over. Maybe the next time RU has a suspect(s) that discussion can get a separate thread...

Well the entire point of the thread is to discuss suspects, but you're also welcome to talk about anything else related to the metagame, especially now that the discussion on them kinda ended and we know the verdict, just waiting on the voting to end.

 

[EonX]

On the subject of talking about other things in RU besides Zoroark and Yanmega, I want to bring up a set I really fell in love with during the Suspect round as I got reqs:

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 160 HP / 96 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Taunt

This was a really fun set to use during the suspect round, and with the rise of Spike stacking HO throughout the suspect test (thanks New Breed ) it just made Support Cobalion so good. With this Cobalion, you get a hazard lead, anti-lead, and scout lead in just one teamslot. There may be no "true leads" anymore, but this is as close as you can get. I think there was only one battle (out of about 50) that I didn't lead with Cobalion for one reason or another. Taunt + Volt Switch is an absolute godsend. Not only does this cold stop any Omastar leads, but it also cold stops any Defogger outside of Shiftry (can't VS out of Gligar, but whatev) which is handled p. well by this Cobalion anyway. Obviously, this Cobalion set has some issues, but I really feel that this set has gone unexplored for a long time, mainly due to the fact people primarily use Cobalion for offense and forget about its crazy good support movepool and defensive typing. (heck, it gets Thunder Wave if you really want to delve down deep) Much like I've said with SubPass Jolteon, I feel Support Cobalion is one of those sets you really have to try to understand how it performs as using a support-based set on a Pokemon known for offense is kind of hard to imagine without using it for yourself. Here some replays of it in action for those who are interested:

fun stuff

vs. RU Hungry - pretty easy to see how quickly Cobalion influenced this battle
Replay #2 - Cobalion p. much sets up the end-game by keeping Golbat from Defogging mid-game.

What other threats did you discover during the Suspect Test? Do you have any experience with this Cobalion?

 

[HypnoEmpire]

During a short portion of the suspect test, I decided to use a TR team and discovered Pangoro. I originally built a team around it for a Research Week, but I didn't really use it much until the suspect test came around and when it did, I got some good results. Anyway, here's the set:

Pangoro @ Life Orb /Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hammer Arm
- Crunch
- Poison Jab
- Parting Shot

I decided to run TR because it basically shut down both of the suspects as well as a large portion of the tier. Pangoro was a perfect contender for a TR user because it has everything it needs: it has good bulk, it is strong as hell, it's slow, it has good coverage, its main STAB lowers its Speed, and it has Parting Shot to gain momentum. Poison Jab is really only for Aromatisse and any other Fairy you may find. Hammer Arm and Crunch are strong STABs. LO / CB Iron Fist boosted STAB Hammer Arm REALLY hurts. I can't post calcs because I'm on my phone, but I'm pretty sure it can 2HKO Alomomola (I could be mistaken). Parting Shot is useful to support boosting sweepers like Nasty Plot Cofagrigus. I used Aromatisse, Reuniclus, and Cresselia as my main TR setters. Gligar, Amoonguss, and Golbat can switch into Pangoro with ease, so this is when Parting Shot is useful. This is a very underated Pokemon imo. I would provide replays, but I'm on my phone so I'll probably just edit them in later.

 

[Lemonade]

Here're the calcs for you
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 259-306 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 226-266 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Luckily I'm fairly certain 252 252+ isn't the Mola build anymore so damn that hurts.

Anyway, that Cobalion made me cry a few times. Scald from Omastar is a 3HKO so you have a good amount of leeway if Omastar knows your shenanigans, but getting burned is a bit lame. Volt Switch breaks its Sash so basically 1 layer of hazards is no longer guaranteed, and bc of Star's low Speed it's much harder later in the match.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

On the subject of talking about other things in RU besides Zoroark and Yanmega, I want to bring up a set I really fell in love with during the Suspect round as I got reqs:

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 160 HP / 96 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Taunt

This was a really fun set to use during the suspect round, and with the rise of Spike stacking HO throughout the suspect test (thanks New Breed ) it just made Support Cobalion so good. With this Cobalion, you get a hazard lead, anti-lead, and scout lead in just one teamslot. There may be no "true leads" anymore, but this is as close as you can get. I think there was only one battle (out of about 50) that I didn't lead with Cobalion for one reason or another. Taunt + Volt Switch is an absolute godsend. Not only does this cold stop any Omastar leads, but it also cold stops any Defogger outside of Shiftry (can't VS out of Gligar, but whatev) which is handled p. well by this Cobalion anyway. Obviously, this Cobalion set has some issues, but I really feel that this set has gone unexplored for a long time, mainly due to the fact people primarily use Cobalion for offense and forget about its crazy good support movepool and defensive typing. (heck, it gets Thunder Wave if you really want to delve down deep) Much like I've said with SubPass Jolteon, I feel Support Cobalion is one of those sets you really have to try to understand how it performs as using a support-based set on a Pokemon known for offense is kind of hard to imagine without using it for yourself. Here some replays of it in action for those who are interested:

What other threats did you discover during the Suspect Test? Do you have any experience with this Cobalion?

I loved using this Cobalion, for some reason not alot of people expect it running taunt, so when they get taunted they switch letting you get up a stealth rock and volt switch out on some switch ins, I would say a wish passer works real well with this set so you can keep cobalion at high hp to prevent defoggers from being successful, you can even switch on nastypass togetics taunt them and volt switch out to a counter/check as they usually only run 1 attacking move (I saw alot of fire blasts togetics to beat yanmega), which would usually be my moltres and proceed to fireblast/hurricane the switch or if it stayed in

252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 146-173 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 20 SpA Togetic Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 77-91 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO

Factor in rocks that togetic took and that I could roost while it couldn't it was dieing if it didn't switch.

 

[Molk]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-stage-3-suspect-voting.3514983/page-3

Bans are official as of right now!

New Np thread should be up soon

 

[Meru]

On the subject of talking about other things in RU besides Zoroark and Yanmega, I want to bring up a set I really fell in love with during the Suspect round as I got reqs:

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 160 HP / 96 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Taunt

This was a really fun set to use during the suspect round, and with the rise of Spike stacking HO throughout the suspect test (thanks New Breed ) it just made Support Cobalion so good. With this Cobalion, you get a hazard lead, anti-lead, and scout lead in just one teamslot. There may be no "true leads" anymore, but this is as close as you can get. I think there was only one battle (out of about 50) that I didn't lead with Cobalion for one reason or another. Taunt + Volt Switch is an absolute godsend. Not only does this cold stop any Omastar leads, but it also cold stops any Defogger outside of Shiftry (can't VS out of Gligar, but whatev) which is handled p. well by this Cobalion anyway. Obviously, this Cobalion set has some issues, but I really feel that this set has gone unexplored for a long time, mainly due to the fact people primarily use Cobalion for offense and forget about its crazy good support movepool and defensive typing. (heck, it gets Thunder Wave if you really want to delve down deep) Much like I've said with SubPass Jolteon, I feel Support Cobalion is one of those sets you really have to try to understand how it performs as using a support-based set on a Pokemon known for offense is kind of hard to imagine without using it for yourself. Here some replays of it in action for those who are interested:

fun stuff

vs. RU Hungry - pretty easy to see how quickly Cobalion influenced this battle
Replay #2 - Cobalion p. much sets up the end-game by keeping Golbat from Defogging mid-game.

What other threats did you discover during the Suspect Test? Do you have any experience with this Cobalion?

No lie I've actually been running this too. Except with a different twist...

ballin (Cobalion) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Justified
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch

I've been using Special Cobalion with Flash Cannon over Close Combat and Rocky Helmet over Leftovers. Since I've been using it with Doublade, I want my SR user to get past Sandslash, as I can't spinblock that with Doublade. Flash Cannon easily 2HKOs, while Earthquake doesn't OHKO. Flash Cannon also helps wear down some of Doublade's conventional checks. It does nice strong damage on Rhyperior, who doesn't OHKO Cobalion with Earthquake. I like the Rocky Helmet to further punish spinners, especially since they can't pull a EQ + Rapid Spin KO like normal Sash leads. Rocky Helmet also helps keep early game Doublade from sweeping while whittling it down for the other sweepers of my team, such as Sharpedo. Taunt also stops Defog from shit like Gligar, Shiftry, and Golbat as well as support options like Gligar's Stealth Rock, Weezing's Toxic Spikes, and Amoongus' Spore. Pairs well with Accelgor too, since Rocky Helmet doesn't proc off of Earthquakes, but Accelgor appreciates Encoring them for easy Spikes. Accelgor can also Encore Close Combats and HJKs for a Spike and clean Doublade switch-in. Accelgor can't Taunt so honestly because of that, isn't suited to be a lead. With Final Gambit, it's much better suited to pivoting in on a resisted attack while threatening to put up multiple spikes or a decently sized Final Gambit. Cobalion here makes a much better Hyper Offensive lead by guaranteeing anti-leading with Taunt.

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 284-336 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Paired with Meloetta, none of its special weaknesses become a huge bother (Cobalion resists Dark and Bug, Meloetta's two weaknesses). Also gonna tag Bouffalant because he didn't believe Cobalion Lead is a thing smh -__-

 

[tutterydiglett]

I saw plenty Special Cobalions during my adventure on the suspect. However most of them were CM HP Fire mainly just to destroy Doublades. Not too sure about the EVS and complete move set but p sure it was something like this:

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt/Close Combat
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

 

[EonX]

I saw plenty Special Cobalions during my adventure on the suspect. However most of them were CM HP Fire mainly just to destroy Doublades. Not too sure about the EVS and complete move set but p sure it was something like this:

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt/Close Combat
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Just making a note here that CM Cobalion would run Focus Blast over Close Combat considering Focus Blast is Special and Close Combat is physical.

Meru , I haven't really given thought to Flash Cannon, but I can see it being a neat twist, especially when paired with Doublade. Agreeing that the anti-lead aspect of Taunt + SR Cobalion is really cool for Hyper Offense teams that want to use Accelgor. Another pro is that Cobalion can be used for similar purposes on bulky offense teams thanks to its decent bulk, especially on the physical side.

 

[Molk]

New NP thread is up!

locking!