Other Pokemon: Smogon Version OU [Route 4]

[MagikaripIsOP]

As always, I don't understand the naming schemes lol; IMO from now on the schemes should be put in spoilers. Anyway, nice designs Cataclyptic but is the guy showing his stomach or something? I think it would look better if his shirt extended all the way and skinnier pants and they both should be wearing J's imo. The guy should have the 11's and the girl should have 3's

 

[WebBowser]

Salemance Out of curiosity, did we ever reach a consensus on whether or not pinsir and tangela would be op for this point of the game? They both have some pretty impressive base stats for this point in the game and I am trying very hard to ensure that one choice is not blatantly better then the others. After all, one of the points of Smog Smog region is that all the pokemon found here are viable. Since we are pulling everyone here from the OU viability list, in the long run that will hold true, but the short run is also important, we don't want to force the players hand by providing the player with a mon significantly more powerful then the ones he had access to up to that point (so, for an extreme example, we don't want to repeat gen 6's mistake and give the player a free mega lucario at the third gym). Doing that will almost obligate the player to add that mon to his team, which will shape his future decisions on who gets added to his team from then on. We want to avoid that as much as possible.

On a completely separate note, were we supposed to introduce TM return in this forest? Azurill is really going to be needing that soon, otherwise it fails to even 1v1 a bidoof, let alone any respectable pokemon.

Lastly, no Timburr? I actually thought he would be a great addition for this point in the game, and would help increase the variety of mon types available for the player to choose from.

 

[Salemance]

Salemance Out of curiosity, did we ever reach a consensus on whether or not pinsir and tangela would be op for this point of the game? They both have some pretty impressive base stats for this point in the game and I am trying very hard to ensure that one choice is not blatantly better then the others. After all, one of the points of Smog Smog region is that all the pokemon found here are viable. Since we are pulling everyone here from the OU viability list, in the long run that will hold true, but the short run is also important, we don't want to force the players hand by providing the player with a mon significantly more powerful then the ones he had access to up to that point (so, for an extreme example, we don't want to repeat gen 6's mistake and give the player a free mega lucario at the third gym). Doing that will almost obligate the player to add that mon to his team, which will shape his future decisions on who gets added to his team from then on. We want to avoid that as much as possible.

On a completely separate note, were we supposed to introduce TM return in this forest? Azurill is really going to be needing that soon, otherwise it fails to even 1v1 a bidoof, let alone any respectable pokemon.

Lastly, no Timburr? I actually thought he would be a great addition for this point in the game, and would help increase the variety of mon types available for the player to choose from.

Pinsir was taking out to only be a battler and tbt it would have to be a pretty Egg Move'd Pinsir to be any kind of threat (yes he does get Seismic Toss but that would be hardly of consequence I believe) and Tangela, while I can see possibly being an issue, but then there is enough bug, grass, and flying types around that resist his grass power and who can comfortable fight back (and being a defensive mon not immune to toxic, I can see it having quite a bit of difficulty).

I was looking through the suggestions, and had not seen that post directly as I was constructing the Wrap Up. I had originally thought we could have just made it available in the next town's PokeMart through TM Shopping (which was what I was originally gonna propose) but if everyone wants it a little earlier, then that's fine. A few items in there were basically me trying in vain to think of adding some items in there so if we want Return in there, then that's fine.

The Timburr part came from me interpreting Chou's post which detailed what type of mons we were looking for within the forest which can be found in the wrap up or here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...u-route-2-forest.3510993/page-26#post-5654618 and I didn't quite seem to find Timburr in Bug Family or Grass Family. I can see him on the other side of the Forest tho to juxtapose the Route before the Forest where it was still largely filled with Defensive mons to where we can start putting a few more offensive mons.

At this point, I arguably haven't seen us incorporate a mon that makes you feel obligated to run just cause it can help get through the game faster (I mean, I personally didn't use Mega Lucario cause I sorta don't like it, but I can se why it was used).

 

[WebBowser]

Salemance The concern about pinsir wasn't seismic toss (which is pretty awful at this point), it was the 55 BP normal type move coming off of 125 base attack. This combined with it's surprisingly decent bulk make it a bit too much for this point of the game.

Besides that though, looks like you thought all this through, so that's good. I certainly don't see any problem with delaying Timburr or Return until just after the forest.

As for Tangela, this is my main reason for concern...

0+ Atk Fletchling peck(35 BP because trollfreak) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tangela: 12-14 (24.4 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO

That's not even enough for breaking regenerator. At this point of the game, one could quite feasibly make a team containing just slowpoke and tangela and stall indefinitely. Slowpoke honestly should be ok, but of the mons available at this point, very few of them can even break regenerator:

venonat: doesn't even get leech life until level 17, let alone a respectable bug STAB

fletchling: see above calc

venipede: poison sting is so bad bidoof would probably have a better chance of breaking through.

larvesta: omg, a positive matchup! 0 SpA Larvesta ember vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tangela: 20-26 (40.8 - 53%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

foonguss: level up movepool is hardwalled, but it hardwalls tangela back so I guess you can toxic stall it

Here's bunnelby for our base line: 0+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tangela: 12-15 (24.4 - 30.6%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO

So yeah, it's either start charmander, grab larvesta, add toxic to your team, or get hardwalled by the first regenerator core we decide to throw at the player. At least slowpoke can get wrecked by the plethora of grass types that we have in the forest. For the record, tangela has a BST of 435, compared to slowpoke's BST of 315. Even at low-ish levels, those stat differences make a difference.

 

[Salemance]

Salemance The concern about pinsir wasn't seismic toss (which is pretty awful at this point), it was the 55 BP normal type move coming off of 125 base attack. This combined with it's surprisingly decent bulk make it a bit too much for this point of the game.

Besides that though, looks like you thought all this through, so that's good. I certainly don't see any problem with delaying Timburr or Return until just after the forest.

As for Tangela, this is my main reason for concern...

0+ Atk Fletchling peck(35 BP because trollfreak) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tangela: 12-14 (24.4 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO

That's not even enough for breaking regenerator. At this point of the game, one could quite feasibly make a team containing just slowpoke and tangela and stall indefinitely. Slowpoke honestly should be ok, but of the mons available at this point, very few of them can even break regenerator:

venonat: doesn't even get leech life until level 17, let alone a respectable bug STAB

fletchling: see above calc

venipede: poison sting is so bad bidoof would probably have a better chance of breaking through.

larvesta: omg, a positive matchup! 0 SpA Larvesta ember vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tangela: 20-26 (40.8 - 53%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

foonguss: level up movepool is hardwalled, but it hardwalls tangela back so I guess you can toxic stall it

Here's bunnelby for our base line: 0+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tangela: 12-15 (24.4 - 30.6%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO

So yeah, it's either start charmander, grab larvesta, add toxic to your team, or get hardwalled by the first regenerator core we decide to throw at the player. At least slowpoke can get wrecked by the plethora of grass types that we have in the forest. For the record, tangela has a BST of 435, compared to slowpoke's BST of 315. Even at low-ish levels, those stat differences make a difference.

Admittedly I had thought Tangela wouldn't be an issue for us but I seemed to have over looked one slight issue: We barely have any primarily Special Attackers that are capable of hitting it well if at all. The fact that we had overlooked that sorta pisses me off as it definitely makes it very imbalanced atm for trying to break through that damn thing.... There weren't a lot of other suggestions that had gotten a lot of likes was the reason why tangelo beat people out, but Tangela may be the sole reason we could add Return in so early (which still makes me worry cause you see how much Bunnelby does with that simple Tackle). But we don't have a single trainer atm with a regenerator core (non in the forest utilize a Slowpoke + Tangela atm) as it is one or the other, so I believe we can be alright as I originally thought, but it just goes to show that we do need to start getting a little less physically offensive minded (or at the very least include special attackers that are not water types).

And as always appreciate the concern bud. Heres hoping the next part of discussion goes well nough.

EDIT: Course their is still the one trainer with a Ferroseed....I'll need to adjust that then in the route wrap up then.

 

[WebBowser]

Admittedly I had thought Tangela wouldn't be an issue for us but I seemed to have over looked one slight issue: We barely have any primarily Special Attackers that are capable of hitting it well if at all. The fact that we had overlooked that sorta pisses me off as it definitely makes it very imbalanced atm for trying to break through that damn thing.... There weren't a lot of other suggestions that had gotten a lot of likes was the reason why tangelo beat people out, but Tangela may be the sole reason we could add Return in so early (which still makes me worry cause you see how much Bunnelby does with that simple Tackle). But we don't have a single trainer atm with a regenerator core (non in the forest utilize a Slowpoke + Tangela atm) as it is one or the other, so I believe we can be alright as I originally thought, but it just goes to show that we do need to start getting a little less physically offensive minded (or at the very least include special attackers that are not water types).

And as always appreciate the concern bud. Heres hoping the next part of discussion goes well nough.

EDIT: Course their is still the one trainer with a Ferroseed....I'll need to adjust that then in the route wrap up then.

Remember, return is not going to be at 102 BP yet. Base happiness is at 70, which makes return weaker then tackle. Going back to my calcs from awhile back, I'd say that return will be at roughly 52 BP while, or half of it's max power. Happiness rises primarily through leveling and walking (the latter only very slowly). Furthermore, as happiness rises, the rate at which it rises slows down considerably. I do not think we will need to worry about folks hitting max happiness until around the second, maybe third gym...

Of course, that will also be right around when they are due to evolve, which opens a whole 'nother can of worms in itself.

Happiness info: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Friendship

Return damage = happiness/2.5 (also from bulbapedia)

 

[Salemance]

Remember, return is not going to be at 102 BP yet. Base happiness is at 70, which makes return weaker then tackle. Going back to my calcs from awhile back, I'd say that return will be at roughly 52 BP while, or half of it's max power. Happiness rises primarily through leveling and walking (the latter only very slowly). Furthermore, as happiness rises, the rate at which it rises slows down considerably. I do not think we will need to worry about folks hitting max happiness until around the second, maybe third gym...

Of course, that will also be right around when they are due to evolve, which opens a whole 'nother can of worms in itself.

Happiness info: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Friendship

Return damage = happiness/2.5 (also from bulbapedia)

I realize, but there isn't exactly anything stopping people from spending hours or so walking around to get that attack to 102.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

I realize, but there isn't exactly anything stopping people from spending hours or so walking around to get that attack to 102.

You do get Return around the first gym or so in B2W2 and XY so there's precedence for it.

 

[Salemance]

You do get Return around the first gym or so in B2W2 and XY so there's precedence for it.

Which is why (as state a little bit above) were planning on making it available in the next town's Pokemart or so

 

[Cataclyptic]

As always, I don't understand the naming schemes lol; IMO from now on the schemes should be put in spoilers. Anyway, nice designs Cataclyptic but is the guy showing his stomach or something? I think it would look better if his shirt extended all the way and skinnier pants and they both should be wearing J's imo. The guy should have the 11's and the girl should have 3's

Thanks for the suggestions. I kept trying to put the picture in spoiler tags but it didn't work, can someone tell me how to do it properly? I'll also put the naming schemes in spoilers too.

Also, question: are we allowed to replace useless TM's with more relevant ones? EG: swapping Struggle Bug with Stealth Rock.

 

[Salemance]

Thanks for the suggestions. I kept trying to put the picture in spoiler tags but it didn't work, can someone tell me how to do it properly? I'll also put the naming schemes in spoilers too.

Also, question: are we allowed to replace useless TM's with more relevant ones? EG: swapping Struggle Bug with Stealth Rock.

We were going off X/Y's TMs and were gonna have SR as a move tutor bud.

 

[WebBowser]

Salemance What are we going to do about the TMs who are blatantly not OU viable (like struggle bug for instance)? Do we just ignore them? Also, walking around for a few hours isn't horribly different from battling wild pokemon for a few hours and has pretty much the exact same effect, makes your team overpowered. This has been around forever and we really shouldn't be horribly worried about it.

Mew King While I appreciate the support, I have found that GF isn't exactly the king of making balanced in game experiences (remember the free mega lucario in gen 6? Also, the exp-all mega buff from the same generation arguably broke the game harder then cario could ever hope to). Salemance has every reason to question the inclusion of return early on, as it absolutely could get out of hand if we are careless. While we stay away from changing base stats and movesets of pokemon, we can certainly second guess the placement and timing of certain pokemon, TMs, and other items.

 

[Salemance]

Salemance What are we going to do about the TMs who are blatantly not OU viable (like struggle bug for instance)? Do we just ignore them? Also, walking around for a few hours isn't horribly different from battling wild pokemon for a few hours and has pretty much the exact same effect, makes your team overpowered. This has been around forever and we really shouldn't be horribly worried about it.

Mew King While I appreciate the support, I have found that GF isn't exactly the king of making balanced in game experiences (remember the free mega lucario in gen 6? Also, the exp-all mega buff from the same generation arguably broke the game harder then cario could ever hope to). Salemance has every reason to question the inclusion of return early on, as it absolutely could get out of hand if we are careless. While we stay away from changing base stats and movesets of pokemon, we can certainly second guess the placement and timing of certain pokemon, TMs, and other items.

True, but again, just something I find a little silly atm meaning they can wait a (barely another Route) for their TM.

 

[OverlordDerp]

True, but again, just something I find a little silly atm meaning they can wait a (barely another Route) for their TM.

I'm going to have to agree with this. Balance aside, there's really no problem in having Return a wee bit later on in the game. Sure, it may be a bit of a struggle, but that just adds true length to the game, not artificial length.

Remember, we're looking for competitive balance, game balance AND optimized enjoyability. There's nothing wrong in letting some push themselves for an invariably good reward, that being the TM for Return.

 

[WebBowser]

True, but again, just something I find a little silly atm meaning they can wait a (barely another Route) for their TM.

Oh, I was never arguing for having return in the forest as opposed having it in first gym town. I agree the difference between the two is minimal. I was trying to figure out whether we should have it "early" or "late" game in much more general terms. On one hand, return is potentially a 102 BP move, which would be patently absurd at this point of the game. On the other hand, it is rather difficult to get return to that point without some fairly serious grinding, due to happiness mechanics. I think that first gym is fine as long as nobody else can come up with any objections.

 

[Salemance]

Oh, I was never arguing for having return in the forest as opposed having it in first gym town. I agree the difference between the two is minimal. I was trying to figure out whether we should have it "early" or "late" game in much more general terms. On one hand, return is potentially a 102 BP move, which would be patently absurd at this point of the game. On the other hand, it is rather difficult to get return to that point without some fairly serious grinding, due to happiness mechanics. I think that first gym is fine as long as nobody else can come up with any objections.

I understand. Was just saying that as a way to end the topic as we wait for Cho to bring us back towards the next area of discussion.

 

[SparksBlade]

Didn't receive alerts about new posts here!!! OK so I've been thinking about the grinding problem, and I think I've a solution, albeit a complicated one. Unless the player wins all the badges, we could put a level limit on every route, so that only pokemon of lv less than some decided limit can battle. This includes moving in the grass looking for wild pokemon, and switching in the same. e.g. if your first poke is above the level limit, you won't encounter a wild pokemon, and if, in a battle with a wild pokemon, you try to switch in an over-levelled pokemon, you are denied.

 

[Millky95]

Didn't receive alerts about new posts here!!! OK so I've been thinking about the grinding problem, and I think I've a solution, albeit a complicated one. Unless the player wins all the badges, we could put a level limit on every route, so that only pokemon of lv less than some decided limit can battle. This includes moving in the grass looking for wild pokemon, and switching in the same. e.g. if your first poke is above the level limit, you won't encounter a wild pokemon, and if, in a battle with a wild pokemon, you try to switch in an over-levelled pokemon, you are denied.

I don't think that would work. People are always going to grind. The trick is to keep the challenge without the solution being grinding. For example in Pokemon Red you pick Charmander. Against Brock you either train other Pokemon to handle the fight or you grind Charmander until it can beat Brock. We need alternatives to grinding as solutions to challenges. But people will always grind. It's an element of Pokemon that will always be around.

On the subject of Return, would think it's more of a 2nd-3rd gym TM or reward for having a Pokemon at a decent happiness to actually use it.

 

[SparksBlade]

well alright that's fair, just though i would let my thoughts in, but you've answered nicely, thanks.
As for Return, it's timing has varied a lot in the games, from late-game(after beating Giovanni) to early(after beating Cheren in B2W2), but besides that, it has always been an early-mid game TM, so i agree that 2nd-3rd gym is the right time for it to appear.

 

[WebBowser]

The thing about return is that early on, it's not a problem, it actually happens to usually be about as strong as tackle, which is fine. However, at precisely around 2nd or third gym, the happiness of your route 1 mons are going to be pretty decent if not maxed out, so you run into these guys with 80+ BP moves while everyone else might have a 60 BP move. As shown in my tangela calcs, Bunnlby is already dishing out twice as much as fletchling with tackle alone (because GF decided that tackle needed a buff while peck needed a nerf, for reasons well beyond my comprehension), so when you factor in the early evolution and a STAB move that will likely beat out all other moves available to the player, we might have a problem.

The other thing to consider is that return has some pretty excellent distribution, so maybe it will simply become the physical damaging move of choice for all physical attackers. Is this ok? On one hand, this means that normal types, bunnelby especially, will be heavily favored due to STAB bonus, on the other hand, introducing it now will alleviate the weak level up movepools a lot of mons have by giving them a reliably powerful damage move (For instance, larvesta will greatly appreciate return before evolving).

TL;DR By gym 2, gym 3 at the latest, return will become the most powerful physical move available to the player and will remain so until very late game. Is this ok?

 

[Millky95]

The thing about return is that early on, it's not a problem, it actually happens to usually be about as strong as tackle, which is fine. However, at precisely around 2nd or third gym, the happiness of your route 1 mons are going to be pretty decent if not maxed out, so you run into these guys with 80+ BP moves while everyone else might have a 60 BP move. As shown in my tangela calcs, Bunnlby is already dishing out twice as much as fletchling with tackle alone (because GF decided that tackle needed a buff while peck needed a nerf, for reasons well beyond my comprehension), so when you factor in the early evolution and a STAB move that will likely beat out all other moves available to the player, we might have a problem.

The other thing to consider is that return has some pretty excellent distribution, so maybe it will simply become the physical damaging move of choice for all physical attackers. Is this ok? On one hand, this means that normal types, bunnelby especially, will be heavily favored due to STAB bonus, on the other hand, introducing it now will alleviate the weak level up movepools a lot of mons have by giving them a reliably powerful damage move (For instance, larvesta will greatly appreciate return before evolving).

TL;DR By gym 2, gym 3 at the latest, return will become the most powerful physical move available to the player and will remain so until very late game. Is this ok?

Not 100% sure on the formula so feel free to adjust my idea.

Why not make Frustration the move from 1st-2nd Gym and Return a 6th-8th gym? Frustration will be helpful for Pokemon like Bunlby and Larvesta that would like an early, strong move but the more you use it, the more you use that Pokemon the weaker the move gets. Eventually like you say, the Route 1 Mon won't really be using Frustration as its began to lose it's power. Good for new Pokemon to get them up to level but only a short term solution. Then by gym 6-8 when movepools are becoming more and more completed, you get Return.

 

[OverlordDerp]

Not 100% sure on the formula so feel free to adjust my idea.

Why not make Frustration the move from 1st-2nd Gym and Return a 6th-8th gym? Frustration will be helpful for Pokemon like Bunlby and Larvesta that would like an early, strong move but the more you use it, the more you use that Pokemon the weaker the move gets. Eventually like you say, the Route 1 Mon won't really be using Frustration as its began to lose it's power. Good for new Pokemon to get them up to level but only a short term solution. Then by gym 6-8 when movepools are becoming more and more completed, you get Return.

Frustration becomes nigh useless by the end of the first gym. You'll have battled and walked enough to get your Pokemon to near max happiness, and Frustration would be a terrible choice then.

 

[Millky95]

Frustration becomes nigh useless by the end of the first gym. You'll have battled and walked enough to get your Pokemon to near max happiness, and Frustration would be a terrible choice then.

How much walking are people expecting to do? I didn't think happiness rose that quickly

On another topic of conversation before we move on, what about switching Pokemon in battle after another Pokemon faints? We having it on Shift (you KO one of theres, we see what will be sent out, we switch accordingly) or set (like normal competitive battles)?

 

[WebBowser]

How much walking are people expecting to do? I didn't think happiness rose that quickly

On another topic of conversation before we move on, what about switching Pokemon in battle after another Pokemon faints? We having it on Shift (you KO one of theres, we see what will be sent out, we switch accordingly) or set (like normal competitive battles)?

Shift is dumb and serves as little more then a crutch for beginner players, it has no real place in SmogSmog.

The problem with estimating happiness is that it varies wildly depending on the playstyle of the user. If a user is careless or unlucky, it may rise very slowly. If he's one of those guys who runs across every surface imaginable, it's gonna max out by the first gym. It makes life very difficult from a balancing point of view.

 

[Cataclyptic]

How much walking are people expecting to do? I didn't think happiness rose that quickly

On another topic of conversation before we move on, what about switching Pokemon in battle after another Pokemon faints? We having it on Shift (you KO one of theres, we see what will be sent out, we switch accordingly) or set (like normal competitive battles)?

Hopefully if the game is released we can get rid of the switch mechanics and set it always on set. Alternatively, we can always have an NPC that says something like "All of teh n00b like to use teh switch, but tru 1337's use teh set option!"