Phantom Force

[Gerard]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused. ​

The Pokemon disappears briefly into a shadow dimension before striking an opponent from behind, evading all attacks in the process. This attack nullifies any Protect, Detect, Quick Guard, Wide Guard, Crafty Shield, King's Shield or Spiky Shield active on the target, as well as the protective and evasive effects of Evasive Agility, Evasive Teleport, Acid Armor and Barrier. The attack does more damage against smaller foes. If the target is under the effects of Minimize, Phantom Force has its Base Attack Power doubled (x2).

Ghost / Physical / Adjacent / Target / 9 BP /100% / 10 EN

Many people agree that Phantom Force is in need for a nerf. First the facts:

• Phantom Force has 9 BP, tied for the highest BP of a Damaging Evasive move (That doesn't have a variable BP), yet it costs 1 less energy (10 vs Fly's 11).
• It goes through Protect / Detect (and lift it and any other protect-like effect from the user).
• Unlike every other Damaging Evasive moves no move can touch you in the invulnerable phase of Phantom Force (outside of No Guard & Pursuit)
• It has 100 acc. Only one immunity. It doubles it's BP against Minimize.
• Since all it's users are Ghost Type Pokemon (with the sole exception of Smeargle) Phantom Force cannot be Counter or Bide against.

Basically Phantom Force is THE MOST spammable move in the game. It costs very little energy for all the effects it's got. It eliminates most of the common responses to damaging evasive moves. On top of that it's got among it's main abusers some of the strongest pokemon in ASB (Kitsunoh, Necturna & Revenahnk all can use this move).

Right now an energy bump is proposed, but does this moves need anymore changes?
Should we allow some moves to hit through Phantom Force (like we did with Dig and co.)?
Do you have any other proposal in how to make Phantom Force more manageable (or even i it needs to be fixed at all)?

As usual try to stay focused and be polite :3

 

[Doubt]

Phantom Force definitely needs some moves to be able to hit it in evasive phase. While I've not much experience in this particular move, I know it's very, very frustrating to have no answer to an evasive move, and if your opponent knows, they will spam that move. An EN increase is needed for sure, and I'd say a few moves would need to hit it as well, especially considering the protect-lifting effects. I'd propose a move like Ominous Wind. The NDA description for this move is "The user fires a ghostly, ephemeral wind at its opponent. The strange properties of the wind may raise all of the Pokemon's stats by one (1) stage." The "ghostly, ephemeral" and "strange properties" would give it a reasonable excuse to hit. It's also not too powerful, weighing in at only 6 BAP. Shadow Force should hit as well, due to being really similar (and, TBH, there's not going to be much usage here, as they both come out at -1). Other options include Shadow Sneak (which is hitting anyway unless something weird is going on), in which the pokemon enters a shadow, or ShadowStrike, which has the user strike from the shadows (which is a bit of a stretch to hit Phantom Force, really). Odor Sleuth/Foresight/similar should hit through if they don't already. Feint Attack mentions both fading into shadows, and a detection other than normal senses. Whatever does happen, though, this move needs some nerf to keep it from being totally broken.

 

[Maxim]

Ban it from the metagame, problem solved!

On a more serious note, I definitely think it needs an Energy Cost hike and some moves to hit it. Ominous Wind and Feint Attack sound like good choices, possibly even Odor Sleuth and Foresight if the Pokemon has already been identified. Alternatively, raising it to a ridiculous cost such as (for example) 15 would definitely keep it from being spammable.

 

[deadfox081]

I really wouldn't be going with wholesale changes for the move. The majority of users are on the slow side so it's evasiveness can't be totally abused. Also I am yet to see an example of it being broken in practice. Feel free to provide such examples if they exist.

Granted however it should be more expensive than Fly considering it has the same BAP and better effects. I'd be suggesting a hike to 12 EN and no other changes myself.

 

[zarator]

I agree with Deadfox in that I would not resort to excessively arbitrary nerfs (such as adding moves of our liking that are able to hit Phantom Force users in the invulnerable phase). An energy bump seems absolutely required (I'd say to 12 since most other damaging evasive moves have +2 but Phantom Force also breaks through Protect). Moreover you seem to completely have forgotten Pursuit.

"The user chases the opponent down in a predatory fashion. If used on an opposing Pokemon ordered to Bounce, Dig, Dive, Dodge, Double Team, Phantom Force, Fly, Take Cover, Teleport, U-turn, Volt Switch, Double Team, Minimize, or execute any other evasive action, this move's BAP becomes 8 instead of 4, its accuracy becomes perfect instead of 100%, and it will always strike before the target uses its evasive action. Foes dealt damage by Pursuit will fail to produce Double Team clones that action and lose any that they might have. Foes dealt damage by Pursuit will not receive the effects of a self-switching or a self-phazing move that it used that action."

Basically every Phantom Force user out here is Pursuit weak (except Revenankh, who's slow for an evasive damaging attack user and has no way of boosting his speed outside Glare). That's something you should definitely take into account.

Finally, I feel the OP is overblowing some of the upsides out of proportion. For example, every damaging move has a 100% Accuracy bar Fly (95% accuracy... oh my) and Bounce (which however also comes with a potentially high BP and a 30% Paralysis chance that allows more DE abuse). Yes, you cannot use Counter against Phantom Force, so what? If you are faster, you don't really care. If you're slower you can still Double Team, Substitute, use a damaging move of your own, and so on.

tl;dr: an energy cost increase to 12 is all that is needed.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah Phantom Force's EN cost should be brought up to match the other DE moves, but otherwise I don't see the need for a change. Yes it's slightly stronger than the other DE moves, but as zarator pointed out Pursuit still hits through it, and there's plenty of other ways to deal with it as well. To the best of my knowledge, the only DE move that has had moves added that can hit is during its evasive stage is Dig, and the two moves added were Bulldoze (flavour addition, since it's basically a weaker EQ) and Earth Power (another flavour addition; in theory if you can make the ground explode above ground you can make it explode below ground as well?). All of the others were based on in-game precedent. And sure you can spam it, but unless the opponent's entire team is Ghost weak that probably isn't a winning strategy, since if nothing else you can use SE comboes and likely outrace as long as you aren't taking SE damage from Phantom Force. And if you are taking SE from Phantom Force, then switch to something that isn't weak to it. Obviously this doesn't work as well for the Gym Leaders weak to Ghost, but as a Gym Leader you should be able to find some way to play around it. Or throw a Smoke Ball on a Pokemon and laugh if your opponent forgets it exists ^_^

 

[Frosty]

I don't see Phantom Force being overpowered at all. Sure, I see it deserving a +2 energy cost and maybe allow Phantom Force and Shadow Force to hit through it (like dive)? That is as far as it should get IMO.

The only D/E that is countered with attacks is Dig. Surfing vs Dive is really rare (as most divers resist it) and for some odd reason I don't see many people using thunder and the like to hit fly. Maybe Smack Down but that is it.

 

[Gerard]

Sorry if it sounded alarmist in the OP. I just wanted to point out how Phantom Force has 100 acc unlike both other 9 BP Damaging Evasive Moves (Well, Bounce is variable but if it had it's In-game BP it would be 9)

I didn't forget about Pursuit, it's right there next to No Guard. My grip with Pursuit is that it's easily exploitable because since it's 4 BP unless boosted, so you can easily sub against it (and even then it's distribution isn't on par with Earthquake).

Revenahnk is a great Phantom Force user because of Infiltrator, which further restricts the amount of options any regular pokemon has to deal with it, so even if it' slow it can punish everything that is slower than it. And avoiding Glare is far harder than you make it out to be since Rev's Glare ignores Substitute & Safeguard (leaving Taunt as the only common option).

However right now I agree that a 12 en boost would suffice until we see how the move further develops.

 

[Gerard]

Well. I think 24 hours is enough for everyone to post their last thought on this matter. So far the slate looks like:

Should Phantom Force's Energy cost be changed?
No (10 En)
Yes (12 En)

Should some moves hit through the evasive phase of Phantom Force?
No
Yes

If Yes wins Q2 then we will get back here to discuss the moves

 

[Geodude6]

Would this be an appropriate place to bring up Shadow Force?

Also, Shadow Force. Its priority is currently +1/-1. I, dogfish, and Flamestrike all wish for this to be changed because, in the words of dogfish, "at the moment it's fucking bullshit and should be fixed before we release Giratina." It's obviously not a problem now, but we should fix this because this will become a problem once Giratina gets released. And because I know someone is going to counterargue with Gale Wings Fly from Talonflame, Talonflame only has 100/3/3/3/3/126 stats compared to Giratina's 125/4/5/4/5/90 or 125/5/4/5/4/90 depending on forme. Plus you can hit through Fly with Thunder and similar moves whereas you can't hit through Shadow Force.

 

[tavok]

We should definitely increase Shadow Force's EN cost IMO, by a ton if we leave the +1/-1 or by the same ammount as Phatom Force if we lower the priority.

 

[Gerard]

I agree, Shadow Force should be definitely going up (15 En if we go by the same amount as PF) and should revert to it's in-game 0/-1 (again going by PF)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Am I the only one who doesn't care if giratina (an unreleased legend who can't be used in gyms) has a broken signature move?

Sure Necturna likes it but it's got several other options it want a at least as much if not more

 

[Geodude6]

We're going to care a lot more once Giratina IS released. dogfish, Flamestrike, and I were going with the logic of "this is likely going to become a problem, so let's fix it before it becomes one."

Dogfish44, Flamestrike, care to weigh in?

 

[Frosty]

some consistency would be nice. Since we will already vote for Phantom Force, I see no harm in including an extra voting while we are at it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

We're going to care a lot more once Giratina IS released. dogfish, Flamestrike, and I were going with the logic of "this is likely going to become a problem, so let's fix it before it becomes one."

Dogfish44, Flamestrike, care to weigh in?

Why? I don't care now about the possible implications, Giratina most likely will only be used in fun matches, TLRs, maybe raids if it even gets caught, why would I care?

 

[Geodude6]

OK. Let's wait until the Giratina TLR comes out and someone catches it and starts throwing around 12 BAP STAB d/e off of R5 Atk that can't be outsped.

Also Necturna would LOVE Shadow Force.

 

[Dogfish44]

The fact that the move can be sketched is enough of a rationale to balance it, indeed. And Necturna can definitely see the value in having a +1 Evasive move.

I have no objection to bringing it up in the same voting. Mainly to make it consistent - +1/-1 is a pain no matter how you look at it. And

And I'm agreeing that Phantom Force should just take an EN Increase and be done with it -_-

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

OK. Let's wait until the Giratina TLR comes out and someone catches it and starts throwing around 12 BAP STAB d/e off of R5 Atk that can't be outsped.

Also Necturna would LOVE Shadow Force.

You literally ignored my entire post.

 

[Geodude6]

The fact that the move can be sketched is enough of a rationale to balance it, indeed. And Necturna can definitely see the value in having a +1 Evasive move.

I have no objection to bringing it up in the same voting. Mainly to make it consistent - +1/-1 is a pain no matter how you look at it.

 

[Frosty]

I don't grasp the discussion here. If you "don't care" then abstain.

Current Shadow Force is insanely powerful and gives Giratina a priority damaging evasive move that:
a) is unprecedent as there isn't any priority damaging evasive move aside from gale wings...fly. Oh a nice reason to get Talonflame. ANYWAY
b) this has absolutely no in-game precedent whatsoever. Whatsoever.

Actually it has no grounds at all. No reason other than "hey I can".

"oh but no one has it, so why should I bother?" Then abstain. If this were a discussion solely on Shadow Force, I would agree, but it isn't! We are just including another question on a voting we will already make regardless.

Also, Pike has smeargle, arcade has smeargle (facing you not for you to sketch it), Hall is a thing, Necturna is a thing that may be used on RPs with its sketch slot being Shadow Force and there are 9982108471204 RPs that may use it. You know Giratina-O is a serpent so if this goes on I might as well add it to Silver/Gold Pike and then see how this issue is revived.

If your problem is "let Giratina keep his move" then vote for no changes on the booth. If we are to not put things to voting because someone doesn't want to change, then nothing will change. There is obviously enough support to make it controvertial (I count 4 council votes for a change in this bloody topic, which is bloody majority).


so yeah, sending this to booth in 48h if no one has anything new to add to this discussion.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Also, Pike has smeargle, arcade has smeargle, Necturna is a thing, you don't need to catch giratina to sketch shadow force, Hall is a thing and there are 9982108471204 RPs that may use it. Tell me: what will you do when Zarator includes a Giratina boss? Or a Giratina Add? Then you will start whining and irony will strike at you.

Nitpicking but you cannot sketch moves from RP's and arena generated moves (As of like January 2012 after a couple of Smeargle owners abused the crap out of Unown Soup). Furthermore raid Shadow Force due to the way it works will only have a 0 priority evasive action (case in point: solar beam charge up at 0 priority).

I personally agree with Texas but what was quoted is based off false information.

 

[Frosty]

Nitpicking but you cannot sketch moves from RP's and arena generated moves (As of like January 2012 after a couple of Smeargle owners abused the crap out of Unown Soup). Furthermore raid Shadow Force due to the way it works will only have a 0 priority evasive action (case in point: solar beam charge up at 0 priority).

I personally agree with Texas but what was quoted is based off false information.

For some reason I thought you could sketch from a Giratina on TLR <_<;. I was mentioning that. All smeargle mentions was as (ab)users of Shadow Force.

Post has been edited accordingly.

 

[Geodude6]

More nitpicking, at one point Deck ruled that Smeargle users could Sketch V-Create off of Lucy's Rayquaza; I assume this would carry over to Giratina and Shadow Force. But you can't Sketch moves from Unown Soup & co.

 

[Its_A_Random]

No that was LouisCyphre wanting to make a ruling to allow that to happen that Deck agreed to as an exception. It is the exception, not the rule.