np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[Srn]

Alright, here's the problem.

The great bulk it has, although mediocre in some areas, is over all great. Its typing is damn good offensively and defensively. It has some hard raw power, and not too many things want to be face to face with such a menacing 'mon, especially when it resists most common priority barring one.

With this description. Who am I talking about? Is it clear I'm talking about mega wile? Or could i be talking about quite a few pokemon in the OU tier?

Because the answer is Keldeo.

Let's stop beating around the bush. The only reason this thing is up for this suspect is simply its power. Point blank. Stop trying to justify and just come out and say it hits too hard.

Aight if we were suspecting mega mawile purely from its strength, might as well just suspect mega medicham first. HJK is far more spammable than both mega garde's hyper voice (she has to predict steels with her unreliable focus blast 24/7) and Mega Heracross's STABs (pigeonholed into rock blast whenever there's a fairy or lando-t on the opposing side basically). There's a good reason we're suspecting mega mawile and its strength isn't the only problem lol

The problem is mega mawile's performance against offense. Sucker Punch allows you to sweep both offensive and defensive teams (well you kinda beat stall anyway) after a boost; THIS is what makes mega mawile so good. In conjunction with her power, yeah we all know that, her ability to beat offensive teams unlike pretty much any other wallbreaker in the tier is what makes her broken.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

The problem is mega mawile's performance against offense. Sucker Punch allows you to sweep both offensive and defensive teams (well you kinda beat stall anyway) after a boost; THIS is what makes mega mawile so good. In conjunction with her power, yeah we all know that, her ability to beat offensive teams unlike pretty much any other wallbreaker in the tier is what makes her broken.

So then for clarification, Sucker Punch is the truest of culprits here? Honestly, that's all that ever seems to be brought up as a giant problem is the dreaded +2 (provided it's even the SD set) Sucker Punch, aside from the hardly viable typing argument. I'm legitimately asking. I had no idea we were banning Pokemon in defense of another playstyle. (Deja Vu or am I just thinking of the Aegi thread?)

 

[Karxrida]

So then for clarification, Sucker Punch is the truest of culprits here? Honestly, that's all that ever seems to be brought up as a giant problem is the dreaded +2 (provided it's even the SD set) Sucker Punch, aside from the hardly viable typing argument. I'm legitimately asking. I had no idea we were banning Pokemon in defense of another playstyle. (Deja Vu or am I just thinking of the Aegi thread?)

Mega Mawile is a Wallbreaker that can sweep, which is ridiculous. All other Wallbreakers have a hard time against Offense due to being easily checked and revenge killed, which is extremely difficult to do with Mega Mawile between its typing, Priority, Intimidate pre-Mega, and Substitute.

 

[haunter]

Srn9130, slightly off-topic, but HJK is by no means a "spammable" move. I'm an avid Mega-Cham user and, trust me, between 90% accuracy, Ghost-type Pokémon and Protect on many of Medicham's favourite targets (Ferrothorn, Heatran, Chansey), HJK becomes hardly a spammable move.

So then for clarification, Sucker Punch is the truest of culprits here? Honestly, that's all that ever seems to be brought up as a giant problem is the dreaded +2 (provided it's even the SD set) Sucker Punch, aside from the hardly viable typing argument. I'm legitimately asking. I had no idea we were banning Pokemon in defense of another playstyle. (Deja Vu or am I just thinking of the Aegi thread?)

We aren't banning Mawile to favor a single playstyle, we're banning it cause it shits on pretty much every playstyle. It can demolish stall with the raw power of its attacks and annihilate offense with its stupidly powerful Sucker Punch which, even unstabbed can, at +2, OHKO even bulky offensive Pokémon like Landorus, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Charizard-X/Y, Heatran etc. Basically every offensive team that doesn't carry specs Keldeo, an healthy Landorus-T or fast Substitute users has good chances of being swept by Mawile if it gets a Swords Dance which, as others have already pointed out, is pretty easy to get considering Intimidate, solid defenses and a great defensive typing.

Besides, Mawile has literally 0 safe switch ins in OU and the best thing you can do when facing it is sacrificing something in order to bring in your revenge killer. While the Swords Dance set can be considered its standard set, Mawile can run Substitute and Focus Punch to deal with a few of its common "checks", such as defensive Heatran, Keldeo itself and Rotom-W which may attempt at statusing it, but takes up to 84% from an unboosted Focus Punch.

While Mawile may not be comparable to other previously banned Pokèmon, like Mega-Kangaskhan and Lucario, which were unarguably more blatantly broken than it, I strongly believe that a metagame without Mega-Mawile will be a more enjoyable and balanced meta than the current OU one. Nothing in OU can currently pressure both defensive and offensive playstyles like Mawile does. I'd say that in a metagame without Mega-Mawile, stall, offense and balance are equally more viable, that's the vibe I've got by playing and watching hundreds of games on the Suspect ladder. This is why I'm going to vote to BAN Mawilite.

 

[shack]

So then for clarification, Sucker Punch is the truest of culprits here? Honestly, that's all that ever seems to be brought up as a giant problem is the dreaded +2 (provided it's even the SD set) Sucker Punch, aside from the hardly viable typing argument. I'm legitimately asking. I had no idea we were banning Pokemon in defense of another playstyle. (Deja Vu or am I just thinking of the Aegi thread?)

I agree with you man. It does sound like Sucker Punch is the main issue. Stallers do not have as much of an issue. Mega Venusaur can take a few hits while Giga Draining and Gengar can Will-o-Wisp, Disable, Sub, Destiny Bond. Prankster users also guarantee a burn, paralysis, forced switch. If MM isn't running Fire Fang Scizor and some other steel types can go to work on it. MM definitely has more counter play and viable checks than some other common mons in the current OU metagame.

MM is not broken because there is viable counter play and MM is not always guaranteed to do it's job like Mega Gengar was.

 

[Karxrida]

I agree with you man. It does sound like Sucker Punch is the main issue. Stallers do not have as much of an issue. Mega Venusaur can take a few hits while Giga Draining and Gengar can Will-o-Wisp, Disable, Sub, Destiny Bond. Prankster users also guarantee a burn, paralysis, forced switch. If MM isn't running Fire Fang Scizor and some other steel types can go to work on it. MM definitely has more counter play and viable checks than some other common mons in the current OU metagame.

MM is not broken because there is viable counter play and MM is not always guaranteed to do it's job like Mega Gengar was.

Very little on Stall likes taking a Play Rough. Even less likes taking a +2 Play Rough.
How does a resisted, uninvest Giga Drain do anything to Mega Mawile?

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 51-60 (18.6 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Gengar cannot beat Sub sets, cannot switch in ever, and will still die after getting burned.
SABLEYE FUCKING DIES TO A BURNED MEGA MAWILE. Even if it could win, Sub sets murder it.

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 240-283 (78.9 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Paralysis doesn't do shit to something that slow you would rather have burned. Also, Substitute.
Scizor still cannot do much to Mega Mawile outside of Roosting in front of it. Focus Punch will still do a shit ton anyway and boosted Play Rough can still 2HKO.

44+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 87-103 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 211-249 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 190-224 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The bitch is killing the bulkiest resists in the game after one boost, and you think it's not banworthy?!?!!??!?!

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

We aren't banning Mawile to favor a single playstyle, we're banning it cause it shits on pretty much every playstyle. It can demolish stall with the raw power of its attacks and annihilate offense with its stupidly powerful Sucker Punch which, even unstabbed can, at +2, OHKO even bulky offensive Pokémon like Landorus, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Charizard-X/Y, Heatran etc. Basically every offensive team that doesn't carry specs Keldeo, an healthy Landorus-T or fast Substitute users has good chances of being swept by Mawile if it gets a Swords Dance which, as others have already pointed out, is pretty easy to get considering Intimidate, solid defenses and a great defensive typing.

Besides, Mawile has literally 0 safe switch ins in OU and the best thing you can do when facing it is sacrificing something in order to bring in your revenge killer. While the Swords Dance set can be considered its standard set, Mawile can run Substitute and Focus Punch to deal with a few of its common "checks", such as defensive Heatran, Keldeo itself and Rotom-W which may attempt at statusing it, but takes up to 84% from an unboosted Focus Punch.

I have to 100% agree with this assessment. As a person who used Mega Mawile before the banning of BP, SwagPlay and Aegislash, Mawile can simply hold its on. I don't know why people seem to keep forgetting that in the actual pretense of battling that Mawile puts you in a lot of awkward positions. Mind you, I used to use the SubPunch set and TRUST... it was stupid. Always loved it when people used to switch into something like Skarmory or Ferrothorn, only to have me use the free turn to use a Sub. Once this is accomplished, anywhere from 1-3 pokemon are biting the dust easily.

That's half your team that more or less competent players are losing just because Ferrothorn was too weak to break the Sub or Skarmory can't whirlwind it out fast enough before the take a Focus Punch in the grill. Then we can choose to run it back or launch either Sucker Punch or Play Rough while not having to incur status. Explain to me how something like this is even considered "playable around."

Almost always have to sac to rid it and that's assuming you have something that can tank a Sucker Punch, which is Haunter mentioned, is no small feat.

Another words: BANWORTHY!!!

 

[Celticpride]

Also, something that uses Substitute shifts what is normally a 50/50 gamble into the favor of the user. Mawile behind a Sub can spam Sucker Punch much more freely then Honchkrow (or just about anything that's not Mega Absol, who is much frailer then Mega Mawile). Just something to keep in mind. Normally when using Sucker Punch it opens you up to status, taunt and the like. The only real reason Sucker Punch fails on Mega Mawile is if you start boosting or lay rocks, and then you still have Mawile with a sub up to deal with.

 

[Muk]

You have really good points, but I think that even compared to other megas, Mega Mawile has something that sets it apart. When you see Cross, Cham, Gard, and Pinsir, you pretty much know which sets you are facing and can plan checks and counters (to keep alive) ahead. Mega Mawile can run so many different sets effectively. While versatility in itself may not be broken, the prediction game (or guessing game) is heavily in favor of the Mega Mawile user. If you guess the right set, Mega Mawile may switch out. If you guess wrong, it may just sweep your entire team. Mega Mawile also doesn't need much support compared to other megas. Char, Pinsir really need hazard removers, etc. Mega Mawile, on the other hand, can tailor its set to what your team needs.

This isn't really true. Mawile has like, 2 sets (SD and SubPunch), yet it's still blatantly broken, which is a testament to how good it really is IMO. Sure, it can run Ice Punch or Fire Fang or whatever, but the problem is its sheer power -- it can flat-out OHKO pretty much every offensive Pokemon with Play Rough or +2 Sucker Punch while also being able to threaten defensive Pokemon greatly. You're right about the lack of support needed, though, and its bulk and typing make setting up extremely easy for it.

 

[rob.]

There are many reasons why Mawile is to powerful for OU. Mawile can fit on any type of team because of it's myriad of resistances and its ability to check a ton of Pokemon. It has an exceptional dual typing that is great offensively as well as defensively, it also has two incredible abilities, Intimidate and Huge Power. Both abilities are useful in allowing Mawile opportunities to setup Swords Dance or Substitute, and go hand-in-hand with Mawile's Steel/Fairy typing. Because of its great defenses and typing Mawile can switch in and stay in on a number of Pokemon in OU. On top of that, Mawile's insane strength enables it to overpower the tiers top defensive Pokemon, which makes it extremely difficult to check. It checks most of the relevant offensive threats in the metagame with its STABs, Play Rough and Iron Head; it's also capable of plowing through defensive teams after boosting its incredible Attack with Swords Dance. Offensive teams lack the means to revenge kill Mawile without losing a few Pokemon. Defensive teams provide ample set up opportunities for Mawile because of their inability to pressure Mawile offensively which means it's usually GG after it has set up Swords Dance or Substitute. Mawile is to much for OU and it needs to go.

 

[stardust93]

i have not used mega mawile since its release... but i have played against it... and to think this pokemon is broken?? what?? first of all it an be 2hkoed by a swampert with an earthquake, (with no atk investment)sucker punch doesnt do more than 40 percent... and mawile being a steel type, there are only certain moves it can switch into (considering everything these days carries earthquake) so i dnt understand how it can "freely" switch into moves when almost everythin carries a move t check steel types..... despite its typing there are enough checks to it.... u can possibly set up on ur own predicting the sucker punch and then killing mawile.... the only issue is sub focus punch.... but even then u hv to take just ONE focus punch.... i knw u cant prepare for every poke in the game... but then again u only hv 6 pokemon per team.... the argument that mega mawile fits in any team is just random.... ohh well my post means nothing cuz obv every1 wants this thing to be banned.... (and no i dint ladder up :P)

 

[Lickalatapus]

i have not used mega mawile since its release... but i have played against it... and to think this pokemon is broken?? what?? first of all it an be 2hkoed by a swampert with an earthquake, (with no atk investment)sucker punch doesnt do more than 40 percent... and mawile being a steel type, there are only certain moves it can switch into (considering everything these days carries earthquake) so i dnt understand how it can "freely" switch into moves when almost everythin carries a move t check steel types..... despite its typing there are enough checks to it.... u can possibly set up on ur own predicting the sucker punch and then killing mawile.... the only issue is sub focus punch.... but even then u hv to take just ONE focus punch.... i knw u cant prepare for every poke in the game... but then again u only hv 6 pokemon per team.... the argument that mega mawile fits in any team is just random.... ohh well my post means nothing cuz obv every1 wants this thing to be banned.... (and no i dint ladder up :P)

Standard sub punch spread and set

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 357-420 (89 - 104.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- which get cleaned up by sucker punch


And she outspeeds swampert. So if swamped is switched in it dies without a fight, even if Mawhile is hurt.

 

[haunter]

i have not used mega mawile since its release... but i have played against it... and to think this pokemon is broken?? what?? first of all it an be 2hkoed by a swampert with an earthquake, (with no atk investment)sucker punch doesnt do more than 40 percent... and mawile being a steel type, there are only certain moves it can switch into (considering everything these days carries earthquake) so i dnt understand how it can "freely" switch into moves when almost everythin carries a move t check steel types..... despite its typing there are enough checks to it.... u can possibly set up on ur own predicting the sucker punch and then killing mawile.... the only issue is sub focus punch.... but even then u hv to take just ONE focus punch.... i knw u cant prepare for every poke in the game... but then again u only hv 6 pokemon per team.... the argument that mega mawile fits in any team is just random.... ohh well my post means nothing cuz obv every1 wants this thing to be banned.... (and no i dint ladder up :P)

You clearly have no clue of what you're talking about.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 214-253 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 429-505 (106.9 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

16 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 198-234 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's all you need to know, really. If Swampert switches into Mawile as it uses Play Rough, Swampert is 2HKO'd without even being able to scratch Mawile. If Swampert comes in as Mawile uses Swords Dance, Swampert is OHKO'd by Play Rough and, again, it's just gonna be death fodder. If Swampert comes in as Mawile uses Substitute, Swampert is able to break the Substitute as Mawile proceeds to 2HKO it with Play Rough or with Focus Punch+Play Rough. If the Mawile user tries to overpredict and uses Fire Fang on the turn Swampert switches in, Mawile can stay in, live a SE Earthquake and still 2HKO Swampert in return.

At the end of the day, Swampert loses 1 vs. 1 with Mawile. Besides, Swampert is a shitty choice in OU and is outclassed by many other defensive Ground-type Pokémon.

Also, Mawile has one of the best defensive types in the game, with 2 immunities and a plethora of resistances to abuse, great defenses (for a sweeper) and Intimidate. It can switch in on many defensive and offensive Pokémon (Ferrothorn, Chansey, AV Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Latias etc.) and set up a Swords Dance or a Substitute or just hit the swtich in with a stupidly powerful attack. Please, play more before posting here.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

You clearly have no clue of what you're talking about.

That's all you need to know, really. If Swampert switches into Mawile as it uses Play Rough, Swampert is 2HKO'd without even being able to scratch Mawile. If Swampert comes in as Mawile uses Swords Dance, Swampert is OHKO'd by Play Rough and, again, it's just gonna be death fodder. If Swampert comes in as Mawile uses Substitute, Swampert is able to break the Substitute as Mawile proceeds to 2HKO it with Play Rough or with Focus Punch+Play Rough. If the Mawile user tries to overpredict and uses Fire Fang on the turn Swampert switches in, Mawile can stay in, live a SE Earthquake and still 2HKO Swampert in return.
At the end of the day, Swampert loses 1 vs. 1 with Mawile. Besides, Swampert is a shitty choice in OU and is outclassed by many other defensive Ground-type Pokémon.
Also, Mawile has one of the best defensive types in the game, with 2 immunities and a plethora of resistances to abuse, great defenses (for a sweeper) and Intimidate. It can switch in on many defensive and offensive Pokémon (Ferrothorn, Chansey, AV Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Latias etc.) and set up a Swords Dance or a Substitute or just hit the swtich in with a stupidly powerful attack. Please, play more before posting here.

I bow down to my Líder Máximo!!!!

Naw but seriously, Swampert!!! Come on, stardust93. Please lurk more before saying things like this.

Oh and saying things like "I didn't ladder" basically exemplifies that you have no validity in this conversation AT ALL among the many other things that were mentioned in your post.

Some food for thought:

One of the more physically bulky mons in the game: Mega Venusaur literally can't do sh!t to Mawile unless its carrying Sleep Powder... which as we mentioned earlier about Spore; can be played around by doing something as archaic as leting one of your other mons absorb the Sleep Status to evoke the Sleep Clause and then bring in Mawile to sh!t all over.

Yes, Mega Venusaur can possibly carry HP Fire; but then that means that its choosing to forgoe either Sleep Powder (most likely) or Synthesis (real selling point of using a defensive Mega Venusaur) in order to accommodate this which means that a dragon that Mawile is usually paired up with can switch in knowing that two things:

A. It won't get put to sleep and can eat everything that Mega Venusaur can throw at it.

Dragon Calcs

Latios
8 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 108-127 (35.7 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Kyurem-B
8 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-B: 127-150 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Dragonite
8 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 58-69 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- 94.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Mind you, all these pokémon can then respond with a definitive 2HKO.

OR

B. They DO put you to sleep and then we are wondering what move you are missing from your pool seeing as how you can't carry 5 moves and proceed to exploit that weakness.

Consequences

1. No Giga Drain = No Grass STAB and Psuedo receovery; which equals water types can come in and proceed to roll for a burn with Scald, which, news flash, Venusaur HATES to get burned.

2. No Sludge Bomb = Talonflame can switch in and put a hurting without fear of losing half their HP to a Sludge Bomb.

3. No Synthesis = No longevity for a defensive Mega Venusaur... cough cough... noob... cough

So yea, if we gonna mention mons that can "check" M-Mawile; which we have mentioned ad nauseam either suck in OU or have been proven to be fallacious, please make sure that they are viable or, at least, have a niche in the OU Environment.

Thank You.

 

[Always!]

I bow down to my Líder Máximo!!!!

Naw but seriously, Swampert!!! Come on, stardust93. Please lurk more before saying things like this.

Oh and saying things like "I didn't ladder" basically exemplifies that you have no validity in this conversation AT ALL among the many other things that were mentioned in your post.

Some food for thought:

One of the more physically bulky mons in the game: Mega Venusaur literally can't do sh!t to Mawile unless its carrying Sleep Powder... which as we mentioned earlier about Spore; can be played around by doing something as archaic as leting one of your other mons absorb the Sleep Status to evoke the Sleep Clause and then bring in Mawile to sh!t all over.

Yes, Mega Venusaur can possibly carry HP Fire; but then that means that its choosing to forgoe either Sleep Powder (most likely) or Synthesis (real selling point of using a defensive Mega Venusaur) in order to accommodate this which means that a dragon that Mawile is usually paired up with can switch in knowing that two things:

A. It won't get put to sleep and can eat everything that Mega Venusaur can throw at it.

Dragon Calcs

Latios
8 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 108-127 (35.7 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Kyurem-B
8 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-B: 127-150 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Dragonite
8 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 58-69 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- 94.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Mind you, all these pokémon can then respond with a definitive 2HKO.

OR

B. They DO put you to sleep and then we are wondering what move you are missing from your pool seeing as how you can't carry 5 moves and proceed to exploit that weakness.

Consequences

1. No Giga Drain = No Grass STAB and Psuedo receovery; which equals water types can come in and proceed to roll for a burn with Scald, which, news flash, Venusaur HATES to get burned.

2. No Sludge Bomb = Talonflame can switch in and put a hurting without fear of losing half their HP to a Sludge Bomb.

3. No Synthesis = No longevity for a defensive Mega Venusaur... cough cough... noob... cough

So yea, if we gonna mention mons that can "check" M-Mawile; which we have mentioned ad nauseam either suck in OU or have been proven to be fallacious, please make sure that they are viable or, at least, have a niche in the OU Environment.

Thank You.

The standard MVenu set carries HP Fire, as well as Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain and Synthesis. Leech seed and everything is just fine and dandy, but HP Fire is most definitely not niche. It is the standard set anyways, and Mvenu is most commonly run on Stall, which is why that's the main set IIRC, it beats everything it has to beat. On the Usage stats from Sweeper Calc, it has HP fire at 26%, and leech Seed at 50%. The reason I mention Leech seed is that Mmawile has no reliable recovery, and the Substitute set can't touch it, while the SD set get's worn down rather quickly.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

The standard MVenu set carries HP Fire, as well as Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain and Synthesis. Leech seed and everything is just fine and dandy, but HP Fire is most definitely not niche. It is the standard set anyways, and Mvenu is most commonly run on Stall, which is why that's the main set IIRC, it beats everything it has to beat. On the Usage stats from Sweeper Calc, it has HP fire at 26%, and leech Seed at 50%. The reason I mention Leech seed is that Mmawile has no reliable recovery, and the Substitute set can't touch it, while the SD set get's worn down rather quickly.

Yes, I'm aware of this, which is why I covered what happens when the set you just mentioned (in bold in your quote) is uncovered. Then my dragon can come in and retaliate.

Also, I never said Mega Venusaur with HP Fire was niche; I was inferring stardust93 original claim about Swampert being able to 2HKO M-Mawile and compounding on that, rather outlandish, claim.

Please do not reference a single point in my post and take it out of context, as that is neither correct nor appropriate.

For your information...

By the way 26% usage roughly translates to 1 out of every 4 Mega Venusaur's carrying it, which really isn't that high in all considerations where: if I am doing my math correctly; you have anywhere from 10% - 13% usage for Mega Venusaur between all the different data mining fields (as per July Usage thanks to Antar). Which means I'm seeing at most 13 Mega Venusaurs on average and factoring for MofE (Margin of Error) of roughly 7% (which is relatively high) then I'm seeing 20.

If 1/4 of those are using HP Fire, according to the Usage rate, then I'm seeing only 5 of these sets in a given sample size of 100 (if you want to factor in a MofE of 5% then that increases to 10 with this set or 10% of the total population).

Mind you, this is for a sample set of 100 only. I'm aware that as you get higher up the ladder you will see a higher concentration of teams using certain Megas, as well as, that we have far more than 100 samplings to choose from (approx. 2.3M) but in the end, we are talking about one individual battling.

Which means that even for the most hardcore of battlers, assuming they are competent enough to reach the top 20 in PS (which the ELO for 20 is 1914) then we are talking about a minimum of 75 battles (which is DEFINITELY higher than that) where I'm facing what; 5, 10, 15 Mega Venusaurs and that's not even including the other 5 members of my team whom I am choosing to help me combat this beast in the first place.

So yea, lets hurry and BAN Mawilite before I have to dive into Antar's data again. (No offense Antar, your the man but damn that's a lot of data to siphon through) ^_^'

 

[Always!]

Yes, I'm aware of this, which is why I covered what happens when the set you just mentioned (in bold in your quote) is uncovered. Then my dragon can come in and retaliate.

Also, I never said Mega Venusaur with HP Fire was niche; I was inferring stardust93 original claim about Swampert being able to 2HKO M-Mawile and compounding on that, rather outlandish, claim.

Please do not reference a single point in my post and take it out of context, as that is neither correct nor appropriate.

For your information...

By the way 26% usage roughly translates to 1 out of every 4 Mega Venusaur's carrying it, which really isn't that high in all considerations where: if I am doing my math correctly; you have anywhere from 10% - 13% usage for Mega Venusaur between all the different data mining fields (as per July Usage thanks to Antar). Which means I'm seeing at most 13 Mega Venusaurs on average and factoring for MofE (Margin of Error) of roughly 7% (which is relatively high) then I'm seeing 20.

If 1/4 of those are using HP Fire, according to the Usage rate, then I'm seeing only 5 of these sets in a given sample size of 100 (if you want to factor in a MofE of 5% then that increases to 10 with this set or 10% of the total population).

Mind you, this is for a sample set of 100 only. I'm aware that as you get higher up the ladder you will see a higher concentration of teams using certain Megas, as well as, that we have far more than 100 samplings to choose from (approx. 2.3M) but in the end, we are talking about one individual battling.

Which means that even for the most hardcore of battlers, assuming they are competent enough to reach the top 20 in PS (which the ELO for 20 is 1914) then we are talking about a minimum of 75 battles (which is DEFINITELY higher than that) where I'm facing what; 5, 10, 15 Mega Venusaurs and that's not even including the other 5 members of my team whom I am choosing to help me combat this beast in the first place.

So yea, lets hurry and BAN Mawilite before I have to dive into Antar's data again. (No offense Antar, your the man but damn that's a lot of data to siphon through) ^_^'

I'm definitely pro-ban, but I simply wanted to say that that at the same time, you can't always be certain that Mvenu can't touch you, and if anything, the fact that one of the bulkiest can't touch it, like you said, is very impressive. Either way, Mega Mawile can't really beat most Mvenu without SD+Iron Head, which is common, but the rise in SubPunch does make it a bit tricker for MMaw to break through.

 

[Reverb]

Without restating anything already said, I would like to note that, in my experience laddering suspect and attaining reqs, I've found the Mawile-free meta to be more competitive than its Mawilian counterpart. For one thing, teams appear to less centralized because people don't have to worry about Mawile. There are also significantly fewer 50-50 scenarios, which necessarily adds more skill to the game.

 

[W_M]

I think we must to use these stats for argue, stats which use low ladder isn't a good reference:

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-07/moveset/ou-1825.0.txt

Hide

| Venusaur |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 590677 |
| Avg. weight: 0.00510413890253 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Overgrow 59.084% |
| Chlorophyll 40.916% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Venusaurite 97.719% |
| Other 2.281% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads |
| Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 27.613% |
| Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 4.935% |
| Modest:252/0/4/252/0/0 3.525% |
| Modest:252/0/0/252/4/0 3.004% |
| Bold:252/0/240/0/0/16 2.772% |
| Bold:248/0/196/4/0/60 2.733% |
| Other 55.417% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Giga Drain 93.158% |
| Synthesis 88.512% |
| Hidden Power Fire 62.247% |
| Sludge Bomb 61.226% |
| Leech Seed 59.442% |
| Sleep Powder 14.745% |
| Earthquake 5.736% |
| Other 14.934% |
+----------------------------------------+

 

[Lumari]

I think we must to use these stats for argue, stats which use low ladder isn't a good reference:

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-07/moveset/ou-1825.0.txt

Hide

| Venusaur |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 590677 |
| Avg. weight: 0.00510413890253 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Overgrow 59.084% |
| Chlorophyll 40.916% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Venusaurite 97.719% |
| Other 2.281% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads |
| Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 27.613% |
| Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 4.935% |
| Modest:252/0/4/252/0/0 3.525% |
| Modest:252/0/0/252/4/0 3.004% |
| Bold:252/0/240/0/0/16 2.772% |
| Bold:248/0/196/4/0/60 2.733% |
| Other 55.417% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Giga Drain 93.158% |
| Synthesis 88.512% |
| Hidden Power Fire 62.247% |
| Sludge Bomb 61.226% |
| Leech Seed 59.442% |
| Sleep Powder 14.745% |
| Earthquake 5.736% |
| Other 14.934% |
+----------------------------------------+

no, these
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-07/moveset/ou-1695.0.txt

venu stats damn those formats

Venusaur | +----------------------------------------+ | Raw count: 590677 | | Avg. weight: 0.0509080045966 | +----------------------------------------+ | Abilities | | Chlorophyll 52.998% | | Overgrow 47.002% | +----------------------------------------+ | Items | | Venusaurite 94.662% | | Life Orb 2.378% | | Other 2.960% | +----------------------------------------+ | Spreads | | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 8.107% | | Modest:252/0/0/252/4/0 5.764% | | Bold:252/0/240/0/0/16 4.675% | | Calm:252/0/0/4/252/0 4.633% | | Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 3.859% | | Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 3.355% | | Other 69.607% | +----------------------------------------+ |
Moves | | Giga Drain 90.187% | | Sludge Bomb 82.038% | | Synthesis 81.051% | | Leech Seed 46.297% | |
Hidden Power Fire 44.979% | | Sleep Powder 22.810% | | Earthquake 10.069% | | Knock Off 4.127% | | Other 18.442% | +----------------------------------------+ | Teammates | | Heatran +18.632% | | Skarmory +12.389% | | Chansey +12.186% | | Bisharp +3.749% | | Gliscor +3.156% | | Quagsire +3.112% | | Mandibuzz +2.703% | | Blissey +1.339% | | Keldeo +1.254% | | Ninetales +1.144% | | Conkeldurr +1.016% | +----------------------------------------+ | Checks and Counters | | Alakazam 78.426 (90.07±2.91) | | (24.8% KOed / 65.3% switched out)| | Landorus 78.099 (82.84±1.18) | | (21.3% KOed / 61.5% switched out)| | Medicham 77.607 (84.75±1.79) | | (29.0% KOed / 55.7% switched out)| | Pinsir 75.948 (82.32±1.59) | | (26.4% KOed / 55.9% switched out)| | Espeon 75.178 (85.95±2.69) | | (23.7% KOed / 62.3% switched out)| | Meloetta 71.328 (87.67±4.09) | | (24.2% KOed / 63.4% switched out)| | Kyurem-Black 70.661 (78.53±1.97) | | (25.7% KOed / 52.9% switched out)| | Gardevoir 65.717 (74.83±2.28) | | (21.1% KOed / 53.8% switched out)| | Latios 63.974 (69.11±1.28) | | (11.3% KOed / 57.8% switched out)| | Gengar 61.686 (70.40±2.18) | | (17.0% KOed / 53.4% switched out)| | Charizard 60.314 (66.52±1.55) | | (16.8% KOed / 49.7% switched out)| | Reuniclus 59.220 (85.47±6.56) | | (15.9% KOed / 69.6% switched out)| +----------------------------------------+

These are the ones used for tiering, and from what I've heard the highest stats are somewhat tainted because they have a too small sample base and they feature a fuckton of antiteaming, so the 1695 are overall the most accurate, they have a sample base of relatively qualified players that's also of a reasonable size.

Pasting them down fucked up the formatting, but HP Fire is around 45%; the most common moveset seems to be Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Synthesis (all three >80%)/Leech Seed or HP Fire (both 45%) So HP Fire is certainly relevant, but as a coverage move and other possibilities are wanted.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

I'm definitely pro-ban, but I simply wanted to say that that at the same time, you can't always be certain that Mvenu can't touch you, and if anything, the fact that one of the bulkiest can't touch it, like you said, is very impressive. Either way, Mega Mawile can't really beat most Mvenu without SD+Iron Head, which is common, but the rise in SubPunch does make it a bit tricker for MMaw to break through.

Yes, the SubPunch set can't touch it, but you and I both know that we wouldn't even bother Subbing when we are just dropping our LO Landorus with Psychic or one of the aforementioned Dragons to handle MVenu.

MMAwile, as we both can agree on, is Ban Worthy and the fact that we had to hash out what one of the most physically bulky mons in OU needs to have in order to be able to compete with MMawile outside of its "normal" set of Giga Drain / Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb / Synthesis is a testament to how problematic MMawile is: Only adding to the already long laundry list of things this BMF (Samuel L. Jackson reference) can do...

no, these
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-07/moveset/ou-1695.0.txt

venu stats damn those formats

Venusaur | +----------------------------------------+ | Raw count: 590677 | | Avg. weight: 0.0509080045966 | +----------------------------------------+ | Abilities | | Chlorophyll 52.998% | | Overgrow 47.002% | +----------------------------------------+ | Items | | Venusaurite 94.662% | | Life Orb 2.378% | | Other 2.960% | +----------------------------------------+ | Spreads | | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 8.107% | | Modest:252/0/0/252/4/0 5.764% | | Bold:252/0/240/0/0/16 4.675% | | Calm:252/0/0/4/252/0 4.633% | | Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 3.859% | | Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 3.355% | | Other 69.607% | +----------------------------------------+ |
Moves | | Giga Drain 90.187% | | Sludge Bomb 82.038% | | Synthesis 81.051% | | Leech Seed 46.297% | |
Hidden Power Fire 44.979% | | Sleep Powder 22.810% | | Earthquake 10.069% | | Knock Off 4.127% | | Other 18.442% | +----------------------------------------+ | Teammates | | Heatran +18.632% | | Skarmory +12.389% | | Chansey +12.186% | | Bisharp +3.749% | | Gliscor +3.156% | | Quagsire +3.112% | | Mandibuzz +2.703% | | Blissey +1.339% | | Keldeo +1.254% | | Ninetales +1.144% | | Conkeldurr +1.016% | +----------------------------------------+ | Checks and Counters | | Alakazam 78.426 (90.07±2.91) | | (24.8% KOed / 65.3% switched out)| | Landorus 78.099 (82.84±1.18) | | (21.3% KOed / 61.5% switched out)| | Medicham 77.607 (84.75±1.79) | | (29.0% KOed / 55.7% switched out)| | Pinsir 75.948 (82.32±1.59) | | (26.4% KOed / 55.9% switched out)| | Espeon 75.178 (85.95±2.69) | | (23.7% KOed / 62.3% switched out)| | Meloetta 71.328 (87.67±4.09) | | (24.2% KOed / 63.4% switched out)| | Kyurem-Black 70.661 (78.53±1.97) | | (25.7% KOed / 52.9% switched out)| | Gardevoir 65.717 (74.83±2.28) | | (21.1% KOed / 53.8% switched out)| | Latios 63.974 (69.11±1.28) | | (11.3% KOed / 57.8% switched out)| | Gengar 61.686 (70.40±2.18) | | (17.0% KOed / 53.4% switched out)| | Charizard 60.314 (66.52±1.55) | | (16.8% KOed / 49.7% switched out)| | Reuniclus 59.220 (85.47±6.56) | | (15.9% KOed / 69.6% switched out)| +----------------------------------------+

These are the ones used for tiering, and from what I've heard the highest stats are somewhat tainted because they have a too small sample base and they feature a fuckton of antiteaming, so the 1695 are overall the most accurate, they have a sample base of relatively qualified players that's also of a reasonable size.

Pasting them down fucked up the formatting, but HP Fire is around 45%; the most common moveset seems to be Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Synthesis (all three >80%)/Leech Seed or HP Fire (both 45%) So HP Fire is certainly relevant, but as a coverage move and other possibilities are wanted.

Thanks for the information... definitely adds a level of depth to the conversation ^_^

 

[z0mOG]

So I feel there actually is one true Mawile counter that most people have overlooked:

Charizard Y:
move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 2: Roost
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Solarbeam / Focus Blast / Earthquake
ability: Blaze
item: Charizardite Y
evs: 240 HP / 100 Def / 136 SpDef / 32 Spe
nature: Calm

This set is above and beyond the best Mawile counter. It's like Wisp Arcanine, except it doesn't suck. The set also has the advantage of beating both Sub Punch and SD Mawile, unlike Heatran or Mega Venusaur. Best of all, this set is actually really good even outside of as a Mawile check. It still has ridiculous power even without investment, (Fire Blast OHKOs Landorus-I 100% of the time without the need for Stealth Rock, a Pokemon with 89/80 natural bulk,) and it has increased longevity over other Char-Y variants. Use this set. Trust me.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 100 Def Mega Charizard Y: 167-197 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Not really sure how this acts as a 'true counter' when it often can't come in after rocks. If it has taken any prior damage then it will just be straight ko'd. The only reason to use it over the weezing/arcanine is that it serves offensively as well, but sometimes you're better off saving your mega for something else.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 101 Def Mega Charizard Y: 151-178 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Weezing/Bold Venusaur can switch in much easier about 90% of the time and won't have to play mindgames with roost/sucker punch.


252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 97-114 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 98-115 (29.3 - 34.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Look, I'm against the banning. But I'll be the first to admit, i see the reason for this ban, I've become impartial, which is why i decided to not claim my req. I don't see it as "Broken", not at all, but, in terms of over all power, which is what it essentially boils down to, Mawile does run trains on teams in the right hands. Hell, I've made it to the 1800s on numerous accounts with the team I'm currently using.

I see the reason for it. But i cant say I agree with it. I personally do not see it as broken, but i do however see the reason for the suspect.

As much as I don't want to see Mawile go, I'd understand if she did.

Other than that, let's not act like children. T_T

 

[TengenAce]

you must be a noob, skarmory eats mawile fire fang,taking only (45.5 - 53.8%) dmg... and mega scizor takes only (51.3 - 60.6%)... noob

aim is actually a highly skilled and respected player in the community.

Also, 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 336-396 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

The damage doesn't seem much to a Skarmory, but keep in mind that's to a defensive wall. The fact that a defensive wall like Skarmory can't very safely switch into its fire fang (Low base power move with no STAB) says a lot (Not to mention Skarmory doesn't do jack shit back to Mawile other than phaze it out with whirlwind).

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

aim is actually a highly skilled and respected player in the community.

Also, 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 336-396 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

The damage doesn't seem much to a Skarmory, but keep in mind that's to a defensive wall. The fact that a defensive wall like Skarmory can't very safely switch into its fire fang (Low base power move with no STAB) says a lot (Not to mention Skarmory doesn't do jack shit back to Mawile other than phaze it out with whirlwind).

OK, two guys join today, don't know jack about what they talking about and clearly don't know how to read.

AIM, who TengenAce mentioned, is a very skilled and respected player, said that SD Fire Fang roasts Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor... so do your calculations correctly before making an a$$ of yourself... NOOB!!!

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 304-358 (91 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 732-864 (213.4 - 251.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 720-848 (204.5 - 240.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

P.S. If you want to take it to the max and assume Max HP / Max+ Def for Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn then have at it:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 608-716 (176.7 - 208.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 636-752 (180.6 - 213.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So... um.... yea...how is M-Mawile NOT a friggin' animal?