Ludicolo [QC 3/3] not written

aVocado

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ain't no party without ludi

Overview
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Ludicolo might seem like it's under the weather as a Pokemon, with average overall stats, unimpressive speed, and slightly above average defenses, but looks can be deceiving. Ludicolo has access to a number of things that make it a force to be reckoned with, despite those apparent flaws. First of all, it has a unique typing that gives it a nifty 4x resistance to Water and a useful resistance to Ground, although besides that it doesn't offer much else. Its access to Rain Dance as well as Swift Swim make it a deadly sweeper under rain, as well as having good move options such as Hydro Pump, Giga Drain, and Ice Beam. Additionally, it's slightly above average bulk and resistances make it able to easily set up Rain Dance, but sadly, outside of rain, Ludicolo is a bit weak and slow.

Rain Dance Sweeper
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name: Rain Dance Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rain Dance
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid

Moves
========

Hydro Pump is the obligatory strong STAB move, which does incredible damage under Rain Dance. Giga Drain is another STAB move that can recover back some of Ludicolo's HP that is lost with Life Orb, and increase its survivability. Ice Beam is a good coverage move, letting it hit Grass-types who resist Ludicolo's dual STAB moves. Rain Dance is the most important move on the set, as it allows Ludicolo to function as a scary sweeper thanks to the boosted Hydro Pump and the doubled Speed, thanks to Swift Swim. Surf is an option to use over Hydro Pump if accuracy is a concern, but the loss in power is noticeable.

Set Details
========

The EV spread is straightforward, with maximum Special Attack and Speed investment. Life Orb is used to maximize damage, but Damp Rock can be used if you need more turns of rain, although Ludicolo wouldn't hit as hard then. Swift Swim, in conjunction with Rain Dance, doubles Ludicolo's Speed which turns it into a formidable sweeper. Modest is used for maximum damage output, which allows it to 2HKO Lickilicky under rain after Stealth Rock, Assault Vest Hariyama, and Dragalge with a bit of prior damage or Stealth Rock and Spikes, while Timid can be used to outspeed fast Choice Scarf users such as Typhlosion and Pyroar under rain.

Usage Tips
========

On Rain Dance teams, Ludicolo acts as a main Swift Swim sweeper and a backup Rain Dance setter. As a stand-alone sweeper, it's better to be used mid- or late-game as a sweeper, once hazards has been set and the opponent's team is weakened. Generally, what Ludicolo will do is set up Rain Dance and sweep afterwards, using Giga Drain to increase its survivability, and Hydro Pump to hit everything hard, with Ice Beam for coverage.

Team Options
========
- good rain dance setters go well with ludicolo to support it sweep. those include Liepard, Meowstic-M, and Volbeat.
- Uxie can also set up rain as well as stealth rock, and has u-turn/memento to safely bring in Ludicolo or other swift swim sweepers
- Spikes setters such as Accelgor and Qwilfish can lay down hazards to aid Ludicolo's sweep, and turn some 3HKOs into solid 2HKOs under rain on Pokemon such as Lickilicky, Hariyama, and Dragalge, which can be 2HKO'd by Ice Beam if 1 spikes and stealth rock are on the field.
- good swift swim sweepers that go along with Ludicolo include Life Orb Seismitoad and shell smash Carracosta, which has solid rock to ease its set up and Aqua Jet as a form of priority
- Electivire is a solid teammate to break some walls like Ferroseed and Vileplume who could otherwise stop Ludicolo from sweeping.

Other Options
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A Substitute + Leech Seed set can work, but it is generally not advised because of Ludicolo's poor Speed, as well as being much more effective with a set that focuses on sweeping. A Specially Defensive set with Leech Seed, Scald, Synthesis, and Giga Drain with Leftovers is also a good option giving how it's a solid check to opposing Rain Dance teams. Focus Blast is a coverage move that can be ran on the Rain Dance set to hit Ferroseed harder, but Ice Beam offers more coverage in general. Finally, Ludicolo has access to Swords Dance in addition to good STAB moves such as Seed Bomb and Waterfall, as well as Ice Punch for coverage, to throw the opponent off guard, but it requires too much set up between having Rain Dance on the field and using Swords Dance, unlike the special attacking set which requires no set up besides Rain Dance.

Checks & Counters
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**Special Walls/Tanks**: Cryogonal can take a hit and has Freeze Dry to hit x4 super effectively, and the same goes for Articuno which also has access to Freeze Dry. When outside of rain, Audino can switch in, knock off Ludicolo's Life Orb, and then stall out the rain turns with Wish + Protect. Lickilicky can also do the same. Mantine can take on Ludicolo and has STAB Air Slash to eventually KO. Vileplume, while unable to directly switch, can take an Ice Beam and has Sludge Bomb to KO. Ferroseed also cannot directly switch in under rain, but it can stall out rain turns and wear down Ludicolo. Dragalge can switch into either of Ludicolo's STAB moves and has STAB Sludge Bomb to KO, but Ice Beam 3HKOs assuming Dragalge is at 100% HP.

**Faster Pokemon**: Since Ludicolo is slow outside of rain, any faster Pokemon can threaten it immensely. Swellow, Dodrio, Sawk, etc. Kangaskhan can use its priority Fake Out + Sucker Punch to revenge kill and potentially waste a couple turns of rain. Hariyama can also use Fake Out to waste a turn of rain, is able to take a hit, and KO afterwards with Close Combat.

**Status**: Paralysis completely shuts down Ludicolo, and other status ailments like burn and poison can wear down Ludicolo quickly combined with Life Orb recoil.
 
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Ares

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For the first set you should have surf/ with hydro pump and sub/ with Rain Dance. As sub is a good option with another rain setter so you can sub on something weak or a sucker puncher.
Also checks and counters I think its base 105's that are scarfed that can outspeed even under rain.
AV could be mentioned under OO as it makes it harder to kill but overall sub/rain dance and life orb are much better on a set.

Edit: after being asked by Aladyyn base 96 + scarfed outspeeds modest ludi, and base 110's + scarfed outspeed modest ludicolo in the rain.

Edit Edit: Sub is good scorpdestroyer for also preventing statuses like toxic and twave which can end a ludi sweep prematurely and with giga drain to regain health subbing isnt to big a deal.
 
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scorpdestroyer

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agree with slashing Surf or at least mentioning it in Moves. Some teams already break walls easily so Surf is a better option for late game cleaning. Not too sure about sub cos I haven't tested it but I'm more inclined to put it in OO.

slash Timid with Modest at least. This allows Ludicolo to outspeed outside of rain: Offensive Seismitoad, Adamant DD Gatr, Modest Samurott, probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. In rain this outruns Scarf Typhlosion, Scarf Pyroar, and other stuff. Meanwhile Modest grabs the KO on Lickilicky after SR.

You should expand on checks / counters a bit more. Pokemon like Mantine, opposing Ludicolo, Ferroseed, etc shit on Ludicolo while Pokemon like Vileplume can take a hit and KO back. Kanga can waste rain turns and revenge kill a weakened Ludicolo, Toxic Spikes are bad, etc

Team options makes it sound like Ludicolo only fits on rain, which isn't the case. Expand on it a bit more. For example teammates like Spikes stackers can help grab KOs on Lickilicky and Audino, Pokemon like Electivire can break Vileplume and Ferroseed, etc
 

aVocado

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agree with slashing Surf or at least mentioning it in Moves. Some teams already break walls easily so Surf is a better option for late game cleaning. Not too sure about sub cos I haven't tested it but I'm more inclined to put it in OO.

slash Timid with Modest at least. This allows Ludicolo to outspeed outside of rain: Offensive Seismitoad, Adamant DD Gatr, Modest Samurott, probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. In rain this outruns Scarf Typhlosion, Scarf Pyroar, and other stuff. Meanwhile Modest grabs the KO on Lickilicky after SR.

You should expand on checks / counters a bit more. Pokemon like Mantine, opposing Ludicolo, Ferroseed, etc shit on Ludicolo while Pokemon like Vileplume can take a hit and KO back. Kanga can waste rain turns and revenge kill a weakened Ludicolo, Toxic Spikes are bad, etc

Team options makes it sound like Ludicolo only fits on rain, which isn't the case. Expand on it a bit more. For example teammates like Spikes stackers can help grab KOs on Lickilicky and Audino, Pokemon like Electivire can break Vileplume and Ferroseed, etc
I don't think Surf is worthy of a slash tbh. There is Giga Drain if you want a reliable STAB, and the drop in power is really noticeable. I'll put it in moves atm and if other QC members want it slashed then I'll put it up there.

As for Ferroseed, I don't really understand how it "shits" on Ludicolo, it can only switch into Giga Drain under Rain, and doesn't do much damage:

0 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 63-74 (20.8 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

while in return:

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed in Rain: 90-105 (30.8 - 35.9%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO

or at worst case scenario:

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 66-78 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- 23.9% chance to 4HKO

It seems like the worst that can happen is either ferro using t-wave or ludi being worn down from gyro damage + LO.. not an ideal counter tbh but I can list it under checks I guess, and explain why it's not a counter.

Implemented everything else though.

edit: smh I forgot to change the calc's default LC spread for Ferroseed lol
 

Ares

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The reason to slash surf is that it has 100% accuracy where as if you miss with Hydro your sweep can be cut short, having hazards up can help surf to net the OHKO and the 2HKO. Accuracy over power is a personal preference and should be up the user.
 

Ares

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Which is why I said having hazards up can help 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky in Rain: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery. With a layer of spikes up and or prior damage on walls like licky Ludicolo can net the 2HKO without having to worry about missing.
 

watashi

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don't even bother mentioning av in the other comments it's inferior to life orb

i don't agree with the surf slash as well since hydro pump can actually hurt a lot of things if you don't have time to set up rain but surf is sorta meh but you can probably put it in set details
 
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Have you tested specially defensive? I haven't used it at all this gen, but it was cool last gen. What I ran then was:

- Scald
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
@ Leftovers / Rain Dish

Sort of shits on rain, which is nice. EVs are malleable. I ran one spread with like 80 Def/max HP/rest in SpDef, Careful, and I ran one with max HP/lots of SpDef/decent amount of Speed creep. This gen, it might be better with a more physically defensive spread for gatr, but again, I haven't used it this gen, so I don't know how it does against it.

Definitely don't make AV its own set.
 

aVocado

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Don't worry, not even mentioning AV in the analysis lol.

I'm not sure about the defensive set tbh, I didn't play NU last gen so hearing about it now was a bit surprising. I'll see if I can test it a bit.
 

aVocado

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bump

On the defensive leech seed set, i'm not sure it should be included as an entire set. Ludicolo doesn't seem like it could check much, and Pyroar and Typhlosion already hurt it hard with specs Fire Blast and non-specs Eruption already, and can even 2HKO if SR is up (as i learned the hard way). I guess somewhat cockblocking rain is nice, but I'll make mention of that in OO. thoughts?
 
Yeah, let's go with a heavy OO mention for now. I'll test it sometime and write it as a set if I feel it's good enough.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Mention a few examples of KOs that Modest grabs; for example, the 2HKO on Lickilicky in rain after SR, 2HKO on AV Hariyama in rain, as well as SpD Dragalge after SR + 1 Spike.

Also mention a few KOs entry hazards help grab.

Talk about its decent bulk allowing it to set up rain dance on a lot of Pokemon, as well as survive a lot of priority.

Checks and counters is still a little limited. Ludicolo for instance is a great counter to itself. Also Ferroseed might not always beat Ludicolo but it is annoying af and will at the very least stall out rain turns or wear down Ludicolo by a fair bit, so yeah list it as a hard check. You should also add a couple of Pokemon that can take a hit and KO in return but cannot switch in safely, for example stuff like Hariyama with Fake Out + CC, Vileplume, Dragalge etc
 

aVocado

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mentioned 3 notable KOs which are against audino, licki, and dragalge. anything I missed?

also bump, this has been dead for 10 days now. n_n
 

Ares

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I feel like Usage tips need to be expanded a bit to give the user an idea of when it is best to bring in Ludi, is it better to use it late game vs this or early game or what, give a couple of examples with that

Looking good enough for first check
[QC 1/3]
 

CanadianWifier

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Have you tested specially defensive? I haven't used it at all this gen, but it was cool last gen. What I ran then was:

- Scald
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
@ Leftovers / Rain Dish

Sort of shits on rain, which is nice.
Resubmitting this idea cause rain is even more prevalent now than ever. I've tested it a bit actually, and it does really well vs gatr, avoiding a 2hko from +2 Ice Punch after Giga Drain Recovery with a spread of 208 HP / 120 Def / 176+ SDef, and it retains its ability to shit on rain as a whole. Synthesis is great as reliable recovery in combination with Giga Drain and Seed, it has no shortage of ways to keep its HP high. Base 100 SDef is actually really high, and its typing is cool too.
 

Martin

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Don't worry, not even mentioning AV in the analysis lol.
actually I'd say put it at the bottom end of OO as it does help it against special attackers and the recovery from Giga Drain is nice. But outside of that niche yeah it is rather s***
 

scorpdestroyer

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btw Arikado when I said sub I meant sub + 3 attacks

Resubmitting this idea cause rain is even more prevalent now than ever. I've tested it a bit actually, and it does really well vs gatr, avoiding a 2hko from +2 Ice Punch after Giga Drain Recovery with a spread of 208 HP / 120 Def / 176+ SDef, and it retains its ability to shit on rain as a whole. Synthesis is great as reliable recovery in combination with Giga Drain and Seed, it has no shortage of ways to keep its HP high. Base 100 SDef is actually really high, and its typing is cool too.
I think keep it in OO first and if we decide it's worth a set in future we can do it separately. This thing already is QC 2/3 so it'll be not very good if the set is added rn
 
I named my shiny comp Ludicolo Pablo the mexican hat dancer. His best friend Hawlucha El Pajaro.
 

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