Cryogonal (QC 2/3)


Overview
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  • Cryogonal is one of the best Rapid Spinners in the tier, facing competition from not many others outside of Kabutops
  • It's immune to (Toxic) Spikes and Webs via Levitate
  • Cryogonal has great Special bulk and access to recovery that lets it wall a lot of hits
  • It has a decent support movepool that lets it do its job even better, with moves such as Haze and Reflect.
  • Base 105 Speed allows it to outspeed a good portion of the tier
  • Cryogonal has absolutely pitiful defense, at an awful base 30. Ice typing doesn't help this very much
  • Typing clashes with Pokemon weak to SR, as it itself is weak to rock.

Offensive Rapid Spin
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name: Offensive Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Freeze Dry
move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Ice Beam
move 4: Recover
ability: Levitate
item: Leftovers / Nevermeltice
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========
  • Rapid Spin is the main feature, seeing as Cryogonal is a spinner
  • Freeze Dry is STAB and has more coverage than Ice Beam because it hits water types
  • Ice Beam has more power than Freeze Dry, and the freeze chance can be useful
  • Hidden Powers are there for Steels types; hitting Probopass the hardest
  • Recover allows Cryogonal to regain HP, which allows it to switch in on Rocks to spin even without lefties
  • HP Fire can be used to hit Ferroseed super effectively
Set Details
========
  • Nevermeltice boosts Cryo's Ice moves without dropping it's HP every time it spins
  • Life Orb powers up Hidden Power, if you decide to use that over Ice Beam to hit steel types.
  • The EVs max Cryo's speed and Special Attack, letting it hit harder and outspeed a good portion of the tier.

Usage Tips
========
  • Spinblockers will attempt to come in and, of course, block your spin. However, offensive Cryogonal has the ability to beat many spinblockers, so predicting the switches can allow for a big hit and a possible 2HKO, freeing up Cryogonal to clear hazards.
  • Because of its Stealth Rock weakness, Cryogonal doesn't like having to clear rocks more than once. Eliminating the hazards setter on the other team before spinning or before it can reset Rocks can keep Cryogonal alive longer.
  • Cryogonal is a good offensive pivot against Special Attackers due to its Special Attack, able to take a hit and give back.

Team Options
========
  • Obviously, Pokemon that appreciate Spin support (Pokemon that are weak to Rock, Sash users, etc) will appreciate Cryogonal. However, Cryogonal faces competition with Kabutops.
  • There are a few reasons to use Cryogonal over Kabutops as an offensive spinner. Cryogonal has better synergy with water types, as Kabutops shares a type and most likely a grass weakness while Cryogonal can hit them Super Effectively with Ice STAB. Since Cryogonal has Levitate, it's also better for Ground-weak teams than Kabutops, which is weak to ground itself, as it can be a reliable pivot and check/counter against Ground types, which it handles with Ice STAB.
  • Many Physical attackers will try to take advantage of Cryogonal and set up. Cryogonal works well with Pokemon that can stop them. Klinklang can be stopped by Seismitoed (which appreciates Cryogonal's ability to handle Grass types, something Kabutops can not do at all), for example, Feraligatr can be stopped by grass types such as Sceptile, Vileplume, and others, while Slurpuff can be handled effectively by Steelix.

Bulky Rapid Spin
########
name: Bulky Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Freeze Dry
move 3: Recover
move 4: Haze / Toxic
ability: Levitate
item: Leftovers
evs: 240 hp / 168 def / 60 spdef / 40 spe
ivs: 0 Atk
nature: Calm

Moves
========
  • Rapid Spin is the main move, as Cryogonal is a spinner
  • Freeze Dry is STAB, and is used over Ice Beam because the extra coverage is helpful
  • Recover allows Cryogonal to regain HP outside of lefties, which is important for a defensive Pokemon
  • Haze allows Cryogonal to stop Pokemon from trying to set up on it
  • Toxic allows Cryogonal to force out or cripple many switch-ins or other defensive Pokemon. It gives Cryogonal the option to stall with Recover.
  • Reflect can be used in the last spot as it allows Cryogonal to compensate for the lack of bulk

Set Details
========
  • Leftovers allow Cryo to gain back HP every turn, instead of only when it Recovers
  • Levitate is a good ability in that it gains a ground immunity, which is good because it's also your only option
  • The EV spread gives Cryo a good bit of needed physical bulk
  • The Speed EVs let it outspeed unboosted Feraligatr
  • 0 Atk IVs are to ensure it takes minimal damage from Foul Play.

Usage Tips
========
  • Defensive Cryogonal can be used as a great pivot. Switching Cryogonal in on Special hits and forcing a switch or stalling is a specialty for Cryogonal.
  • Rapid Spin essential gives the opponent a free turn, so it is important to spin on a free turn of your own, because if your opponent takes the opportunity to switch and setup the consequences could be devastating.
  • It's also important to recover any lost momentum, which can be done through forcing switches of your own and setting up on the counter.

Team Options
========
  • Physical wallbreakers also stop Cryogonal's walling capabilities. Pairing Cryogonal with Pokemon that can wall and handle Physical Pokemon can let Cryogonal
  • While Cryogonal can wall most Special attackers, Psyshock users such as Mesprit can greatly hurt it. Pokemon that can handle these can boost Cryogonal's walling capabilities.
  • Cryogonal can be a very effective Rapid Spinner on bulky offense, defensive balance, and defensive teams, as it soaks up Special hits. Bulkier teams also appreciate Defensive Cryogonal's other qualities, such as its higher Speed (a feature most bulky Pokemon lack) and ability to put up Reflect.
Other Options
########
  • Magic Coat is a nice move, however it may be hard to fit on a moveset.
  • Icy Wind is also nice to lower opponent's speeds, but again it may be hard to find a spot for.
  • Knock Off is a good utility move, as while it can't hit hard the secondary effect can help Cryogonal

Checks & Counters
########
**Physical Pokemon** Physical Pokemon such as Gurdurr can take advantage of Cryogonal's incredibly low base 30 Defense, hitting it hard and OHKO or 2HKOing it.

**Psyshock users** Special attackers with Psyshock can hurt Cryogonal greatly.

**Steel Types** Steel types such as Klinklang, and Probopass resist Ice typing and are immune to Toxic, so unless Cryogonal runs some SE Hidden Power Steel types will threaten you.

**Non-water ice resists** Pokemon like Thick Fat Hariyama and SpD Flareon and Torkoal run over Cryogonal
 
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watashi

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World Defender
for the defensive set i'd use 240 hp / 168 def / 60 spdef / 40 spe with calm which is the bw ru spread modified to outrun max speed feraligatr. the def lets you survive cb spiritomb sucker punch so you can spin on it easier
 

Punchshroom

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You'll want an "Other Options" section too. Acid Armor can go there since it lets it beat physical Tomb (which Reflect fails to do).
 
I'm now using those evs FLCL, and the OO section is mixed up because I went to reorder the sets and took it with me when I C/Ped :x
 

watashi

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i wouldn't say that it's the best ice-type since it has some noticeable flaws

emphasize its terrible defense more

infiltrator doesn't hit through protect, it hits through reflect

dazzling gleam and flash cannon are pretty terrible moves to use on cryogonal, so take them off other options
 
i wouldn't say that it's the best ice-type since it has some noticeable flaws

emphasize its terrible defense more

infiltrator doesn't hit through protect, it hits through reflect

dazzling gleam and flash cannon are pretty terrible moves to use on cryogonal, so take them off other options
Updated with these, is there anything that stands out?
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

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I'd change the defensive ev spread on cryo tbh.

224 hp / 164 def / 48 spa / 72 spe with a timid nature works very well.
  • The speed on cryo allows you to outspeed modest max spe xatu by 1 point, so you can get a quick haze off before it attacks.
  • The HP gives you a 'leftovers number' of 337, and doesn't really need anymore.
  • The def investment allows to hit take on spiritomb much better and the spa allows you to hit harder
 

watashi

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World Defender
that's quite a huge change since you're dropping 46 points in special defense for a leftovers number solely to outrun xatu, which usually run timid on offensive sets. i'm not sure how it takes on spiritomb better when you have less defense and hp than the previous spread. also, defense sets shouldn't be investing in special attack unless they obtain a specific kill.
 
that's quite a huge change since you're dropping 46 points in special defense for a leftovers number solely to outrun xatu, which usually run timid on offensive sets. i'm not sure how it takes on spiritomb better when you have less defense and hp than the previous spread. also, defense sets shouldn't be investing in special attack unless they obtain a specific kill.
Can I ask you to give this a full qc check? Pretty please?
 
In the Overview, note that Cryogonal's typing clashes pretty terribly with Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock. Use this over the point that it is weak to Stealth Rock because we already know that. Don't mention raw Base Stats either, barring Speed, which matters a ton.

HP Ground is better than HP Fighting here because hitting Fire-types is more important than hitting Pawniard for 4x super effective damage.

Specifically mention in moves for the offensive set that HP Fire is for Ferroseed, while HP Ground is for Probopass.

Your Focus Sash Accelgor mention in Usage Tips is a bad one. Sash Accelgor is used nearly exclusively as a lead, so it almost never switches into hazards. You don't really need an example here because you'll cover this type of information in Team Options.

I don't think the Pursuit trappers mention in Team Options is necessary. The whole point of offensive Cryogonal is that it beats Ghost-types so that it doesn't need that support, and the only Ghost-types that can reliably beat it are Specially Defensive Dusclops and Dusknoir, which are both bad and non-existent.

Haze on Cryogonal is absolutely not for Feraligatr and Klinklang, and you have no business staying in on either of them. It's for special boosters that you can actually stop. Also mention that the reason why CB Spiritomb gets around Reflect is because of Infiltrator.

Your Usage Tips for the defensive set are really lacking. The things you included there are really common sense stuff. Rapid Spin loses a lot of momentum because it effectively gives your opponent a free turn in exchange for removing their hazards, so make sure to mention that it's important to try to find a free turn of your own to spin. Basically, make sure that you can recover from that momentum loss before you spin.

Don't compare sets. Right now, set order on the dex is in alphabetical order, so the defensive set will actually be first on the analysis and the comparison will make no sense. Plus, down the line if the defensive set becomes better than the offensive set and we want to switch order, we don't want to have to go through and make sure that there are no comparisons that we have to delete. This is more relevant on analyses with many sets, but it's still applicable here.

In Team Options, you should emphasize that the defensive set only really fits well on balanced/defensive teams, and because Sticky Web isn't used on either, you should cut that.

Cut Electivire from Checks and Counters. Its most common/best set is mixed, and the only physical move on that set is Earthquake. You can pretty much just change this to Physical Attackers anyways because you don't need to be strong to OHKO Cryogonal, especially offensive sets.

Mention non-Water-type Ice resists somewhere. Stuff like Thick Fat Hariyama and bulky Fire-types like SpDef Flareon and Torkoal shit all over Cryogonal.
 
In the Overview, note that Cryogonal's typing clashes pretty terribly with Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock. Use this over the point that it is weak to Stealth Rock because we already know that. Don't mention raw Base Stats either, barring Speed, which matters a ton.

HP Ground is better than HP Fighting here because hitting Fire-types is more important than hitting Pawniard for 4x super effective damage.

Specifically mention in moves for the offensive set that HP Fire is for Ferroseed, while HP Ground is for Probopass.

Your Focus Sash Accelgor mention in Usage Tips is a bad one. Sash Accelgor is used nearly exclusively as a lead, so it almost never switches into hazards. You don't really need an example here because you'll cover this type of information in Team Options.

I don't think the Pursuit trappers mention in Team Options is necessary. The whole point of offensive Cryogonal is that it beats Ghost-types so that it doesn't need that support, and the only Ghost-types that can reliably beat it are Specially Defensive Dusclops and Dusknoir, which are both bad and non-existent.

Haze on Cryogonal is absolutely not for Feraligatr and Klinklang, and you have no business staying in on either of them. It's for special boosters that you can actually stop. Also mention that the reason why CB Spiritomb gets around Reflect is because of Infiltrator.

Your Usage Tips for the defensive set are really lacking. The things you included there are really common sense stuff. Rapid Spin loses a lot of momentum because it effectively gives your opponent a free turn in exchange for removing their hazards, so make sure to mention that it's important to try to find a free turn of your own to spin. Basically, make sure that you can recover from that momentum loss before you spin.

Don't compare sets. Right now, set order on the dex is in alphabetical order, so the defensive set will actually be first on the analysis and the comparison will make no sense. Plus, down the line if the defensive set becomes better than the offensive set and we want to switch order, we don't want to have to go through and make sure that there are no comparisons that we have to delete. This is more relevant on analyses with many sets, but it's still applicable here.

In Team Options, you should emphasize that the defensive set only really fits well on balanced/defensive teams, and because Sticky Web isn't used on either, you should cut that.

Cut Electivire from Checks and Counters. Its most common/best set is mixed, and the only physical move on that set is Earthquake. You can pretty much just change this to Physical Attackers anyways because you don't need to be strong to OHKO Cryogonal, especially offensive sets.

Mention non-Water-type Ice resists somewhere. Stuff like Thick Fat Hariyama and bulky Fire-types like SpDef Flareon and Torkoal shit all over Cryogonal.
Fixed these, it was a lot so thank you for that
 
change the first point in the overview because kabutops exists now

cut any mentions of spiritomb because there probably are a few. omastar too but idt there are any of those.

Acid Armor should be cut from OO because its only niche was the ability of Reflect that also worked vs. tomb. I don't like empty OOs, so you can toss Magic Coat in there I guess. cool move that would be alright if Cryo had the room for it. you could probably mention Icy Wind for the same reason.

and since these are minor and the next two QCers can double check for omastar/tomb mentions, 1/3
 
change the first point in the overview because kabutops exists now

cut any mentions of spiritomb because there probably are a few. omastar too but idt there are any of those.

Acid Armor should be cut from OO because its only niche was the ability of Reflect that also worked vs. tomb. I don't like empty OOs, so you can toss Magic Coat in there I guess. cool move that would be alright if Cryo had the room for it. you could probably mention Icy Wind for the same reason.

and since these are minor and the next two QCers can double check for omastar/tomb mentions, 1/3
I had went ahead and took out one of the tomb mentions but missed the other, but I didn't even think of kabutops so thanks
 

Blast

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Your Overview is very bland atm. I don't feel I'm learning a whole lot about Cryogonal from the info provided: you need to better explain its roles in the meta and what traits allow it to fulfill those roles. There isn't even a single mention of Rapid Spin in the Overview, which is extremely questionable, and high Speed is definitely not the only good thing about it.

Usage Tips and Team Options for both sets are also very vague. For offensive's UT, you have a grand total of one bullet point about "predicting spinblockers" and nothing else, which is unacceptable, and for TO all of your listed teammates are very obvious ("stuff that likes spin support" isn't good enough). Especially now that Kabutops is in the tier you need to be much more specific about what types of teams want offensive Cryo, since what you have is very lacking currently. As for the bulky set, both UT and TO also list super obvious shit ("Haze stops boosting" "Rapid Spin loses momentum" "support to beat spinblockers and it works well balanced / defensive teams"). Assuming you've actually used both Cryo sets, what specifically did you use it with, and how specifically did you play with it? And if you haven't, then you need to because you can't just reserve analyses simply because they're free and theorymon everything.
 
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Your Overview is very bland atm. I don't feel I'm learning a whole lot about Cryogonal from the info provided: you need to better explain its roles in the meta and what traits allow it to fulfill those roles. There isn't even a single mention of Rapid Spin in the Overview, which is extremely questionable, and high Speed is definitely not the only good thing about it.

Usage Tips and Team Options for both sets are also very vague. For offensive's UT, you have a grand total of one bullet point about "predicting spinblockers" and nothing else, which is unacceptable, and for TO all of your listed teammates are very obvious ("stuff that likes spin support" isn't good enough). Especially now that Kabutops is in the tier you need to be much more specific about what types of teams want offensive Cryo, since what you have is very lacking currently. As for the bulky set, both UT and TO also list super obvious shit ("Haze stops boosting" "Rapid Spin loses momentum" "support to beat spinblockers and it works well balanced / defensive teams"). Assuming you've actually used both Cryo sets, what specifically did you use it with, and how specifically did you play with it? And if you haven't, then you need to because you can't just reserve analyses simply because they're free and theorymon everything.
I used it when I reserved it, but stopped for a bit and obviously the meta has changed quite a bit. I did more testing yesterday and fixed a lot. I added more of Cryogonal's good qualities to the overview. I also added a lot more detail to the UT and TO in both sets.

In the offensive set, I talked about how Cryogonal doesnt like to repeatedly switch in to SR so taking out the hazards setter can help a lot. I also elaborated a lot on how it can work as on offensive spinner over Kabutops, and when you should use it over Kabutops (this is mostly a synergy issue-Kabuotps can work well with Pokemon it shares weaknesses with, Kabutops works better with those due to being able to help the a lot better) and how to actually support it, which is basically bringing Pokemon can stop Pokemon that switch in and set up on Cryogonal, and I gave a few specifics. I tried to get a lot of stuff on this, so I think its long enough.

In the Defensive set, I talked about its ability to be a Special pivot in UT. I also wrote up more on the momentum part, as it was pretty simple and it just wasn't enough. In TO, I mentioned how it can wall more effectively if it doesnt have to deal with a.) strong physical Pokemon and b.) Psyshock users, which I also mentioned in Checks and Counters.. I also wrote up a what I believe is an acceptable amount on how it works well with bulkier/defensive teams, but if I haven't feel free to say if I need more on that or not.

If you still think it's too bland/obvious/not enough or if I made a mistake, just say the word and I can fix that.
 

Ares

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So this might just be me, but I like having Leftovers as my item for the offensive rapid spin set. I hate having life orb and I'm indifferent on Never Melt Ice. The nice thing about Leftovers is that it allows cryo to serve as an offensive pivot and not have to recover every time if rocks are on the field. Life orb just cuts into cryo's health (not to mention losing health with rapid spin) and means that more often than not you are required to recover which can kill momentum. I propose that Leftovers be the primary slash followed by Never Melt Ice, and Life Orb removed either to set details or to oo entirely.

QC thoughts?
 
So this might just be me, but I like having Leftovers as my item for the offensive rapid spin set. I hate having life orb and I'm indifferent on Never Melt Ice. The nice thing about Leftovers is that it allows cryo to serve as an offensive pivot and not have to recover every time if rocks are on the field. Life orb just cuts into cryo's health (not to mention losing health with rapid spin) and means that more often than not you are required to recover which can kill momentum. I propose that Leftovers be the primary slash followed by Never Melt Ice, and Life Orb removed either to set details or to oo entirely.

QC thoughts?
To be honest, when I was testing I found that this was generally true. Nevermeltice was doable and when I used Lefties on offensive it made a big difference, but I was unsure about changing it because I was told that those two were the best. QC permitting I personally think it should be changed.
 

Ares

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QC 2/3

Did some changes over PS here they are for anyone curious

Leer: what am i need????
+Montsegur: okay Leer, make the items lefties/nevermelt ice with LO in set details, and then the order of moves should go HP ground / Ice Beam, with HP fire put in oo for ferro
Leer: idk i was told to do hp fire
Leer: and yeah lefties is besties
+Montsegur: by?
Leer: hollywood i think
+Montsegur: yeah he said just mention it in moves specifically for ferroseed, dont give it a main slash
Leer: o
Leer: alright
+Montsegur: for Usage tips on the offensive set add in a line about how it can be used as an offensive pivot vs special attackers due to its high special defense stat
+Montsegur: which is handy on HO teams
+Montsegur: make sure to put spaces between your slashes on moves and items and stuff so it looks like this move 1 / move 2
+Montsegur: also put Knock Off in oo, seen it used for utility and while I personally wouldnt use it doesnt seem like a bad option imo
Leer: btw
Leer: wouldnt i put hp fire in the moves section instead of OO?
Leer: also i just fixed slashes
+Montsegur: yes
Leer: alright cause i was wondering about hta
+Montsegur: like put it last so it would be HP fire at the bottom
Leer: that
+Montsegur: its good enough for a move, not good enough for a slash, but not bad enough to be in oo
 

Blast

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I think Ice Beam should still be first. Unboosted HP Ground is really really weak (like doesn't even 2HKO Typhlosion lol) and the extra power of Ice Beam is pretty helpful against neutral targets since Freeze-Dry is kinda weak.

In the Overview, mention its offensive typing is really good and is one of its niches over Kabutops

Adjust Set Details to the new item slashes (Leftovers, NMI, then mention LO as another option)

The defensive set can probably keep its spread even in post-Tomb meta, but with 56 SpD > 60 to hit a jump point. Also 0 Atk IVs don't need to be mentioned since it's taken as "given" knowledge
 

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