Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Inflikted]

Yeah the best it can do is U-turn out, which IMO, is good enough for a threat that is otherwise... completely unwallable? Cross is slow, so switch ins are relatively easy after a u-turn.

Disaster averted, and momentum gained, whie lando stays relatively healthy enough to do it one more time.

Also agree I would personally put enough to reach 263 speed to outspeed bisharp and breloom.

I would not consider defensive Lando T an answer to Sd Heracross at all; it switches in as Heracross uses sd...and then? If you hard switch out, something else will have to take a +1 rock blast; if you don't run enough speed for heracross and use u-turn, rock nlast will do a number on Lando. What will you have accomplished at that point? You will have been able to get a Heracross check in, but your physical tank with no recovery will be sooo damn weakened, and any of Heracross' teammates will break through. Heracross will have accomplished its role as a wallbreaker.

Aaand 264 speed may be a bit too much imo, i can't check how many evs you need atm but i think the loss ib bulk will be noticeable, and useless if heracross runs jolly which isn't actually a bad set, you wont outspeed anyway.

Lando's other sets are cool and stuff. But in all honesty, its main set being a tank/pivot that is supposed to switch into powerful physical moves from monsters like m pinsir, but has no recovery to do it more than once kinda bothers me. I think i'll read if anyone makes good points to justify its rise before stopping being skeptical :]

 

[Prinz]

I would like to see it rising because it's rly good to check lot of things like Talon, Pinsir, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Garchomp and Breloom and while it can't check all these things more than 1 time, it can check all of them 1 time which is huge for any HO / balanced teams. It's also a good choice scarf users being able to outspeed and revenge-kill lot of boosted things while it can gain momentum with U-Turn, also the tournament usage really is in its favour, and in important tournaments like frontier it's really much used, and almost any balanced team run it (it was also 14th in usage in WCop as well, while things like Greninja, Garchomp, Gyarados and Bisharp had less usage, but they are higher than it in this rank). For these reasons (and mostly because it got a rly boost in tournament usage, which really proves that it's a great mon ATM, words doesnt very mean much), I guess that it can be worthy for A+ rank, although I don't really care if it remains A rank as well.

 

[Pikachuu]

Wait what? I thought the way this thread worked was that if the majority agreed with a rank change then it would happen? so why is Tyranitar still A? I think it's bs how if the handler of the thread doesn't agree with a change it doesn't get changed even though the majority agreed. Looking back at all these posts I'll list all the people that said yes to Tyranitar in A+ and those who said no:

No:

Crashingbombang
Alexwolf
TRC
TerrorDave
Milkyway01
malomyotismon

Yes:

Tainic
Jacks0n
Jmach
Blowingbubbles
Megabackingengar
AM145
Synchronation
Gloating
TheV8Man
-clone-
Flamer
XsilentDevil
effyouzion
Mr James Grey
Jukain
Ropeburn
Baharoth
jbtc10
myself

 

[trc]

If you had 20 random people support one thing and 5 top tournament players supporting another, which side would you go with? Majority =/= best choice. You can also add McMeghan to the "No" list; as alexwolf has said, he gathers opinions from many other outlets.

 

[Stef0w]

Well, cbb is one of the best players we got, and alexwolf runs the thread, and it's not like they try to snuff the players, it's just that mod's and mentor's are genrally better players.

fuk u jukain, ruined mah klefki nom (just kidding your awesome af tbh).

I bet I got greninja'd.

EDIT: yup

 

[Gloating]

I would like to see it rising because it's rly good to check lot of things like Talon, Pinsir, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Garchomp and Breloom and while it can't check all these things more than 1 time, it can check all of them 1 time which is huge for any HO / balanced teams. It's also a good choice scarf users being able to outspeed and revenge-kill lot of boosted things while it can gain momentum with U-Turn, also the tournament usage really is in its favour, and in important tournaments like frontier it's really much used, and almost any balanced team run it (it was also 14th in usage in WCop as well, while things like Greninja, Garchomp, Gyarados and Bisharp had less usage, but they are higher than it in this rank). For these reasons (and mostly because it got a rly boost in tournament usage, which really proves that it's a great mon ATM, words doesnt very mean much), I guess that it can be worthy for A+ rank, although I don't really care if it remains A rank as well.

Seconding this, I fucking hate Landorus-T, it's so annoying lol but yeah A+ wouldn't be bad it checks Sand Offense and a plethora of physical attackers while also having nice moves like Knock Off and U-turn.

 

[Prinz]

Wait what? I thought the way this thread worked was that if the majority agreed with a rank change then it would happen? so why is Tyranitar still A? I think it's bs how if the handler of the thread doesn't agree with a change it doesn't get changed even though the majority agreed. Looking back at all these posts I'll list all the people that said yes to Tyranitar in A+ and those who said no:

No:

Crashingbombang
Alexwolf
TRC
TerrorDave
Milkyway01
malomyotismon

Yes:

Tainic
Jacks0n
Jmach
Blowingbubbles
Megabackingengar
AM145
Synchronation
Gloating
TheV8Man
-clone-
Flamer
XsilentDevil
effyouzion
Mr James Grey
Jukain
Ropeburn
Baharoth
jbtc10
myself

Quality > Quantity. I also think that while we all discuss together about what rank should belong at any mon, then the mods, the leaders and the other top tournament player decide where a x pokèmon should be so making posts like yours is quite pointless.

 

[Zekrenzo]

Pikachuu Smogon isn't a democracy

 

[Numera]

hold up, wait just a damn minute. if a majority agrees, but a smaller group of better players think otherwise, the decision is overruled? whats the point of this thread then? like i made a post to keep zard x in s, and i'm sure a large amount of people agree, but if a group of 5~ players say otherwise it drops? like do i have to be known in tournaments to ensure my post actually matters?

The result should never fall to the amount of people who agree. The winning side is always going to be the side with the better argument, or this thread's job of educating people in what are the most viable Pokemon in the OU metagame accurately becomes impossible. You don't have to be the most well known, you just have to have a good argument for your post to count. The side for Ttar for A easily had the better argument. Did you READ CBB's post?

 

[Stef0w]

do we even get anything from this discussion?

this is a tier list, it's mainly used by new players to find out furret isnt exatly the shit to use in OU, Smogon forums if the place where the very best of the compittive pokemon comunity gather to exchange knowledge, and remove toxic stuff from the game.

Obviously the player with something to show has a louder voice, because they have proven to know their shit.

Im not saying you have no voice, but the pro's just know better, nothing to start a riot about.

 

[Ropeburn]

At the end of the day, this thread is centered around giving newer players a good grasp of the tier before they delve in. While I'm not happy with T-tar's placement, I can see the points that the players who are better than me have presented despite them being too lazy to post in the thread. That said, Alexwolf has done a very great job at making sure that everyone gets a chance to have their voice heard, and doesn't just move stuff for the fun of it.


Anyways, I'd like to bring this up again: Why is Mega Abomasnow even ranked at all? Tons of weaknesses, terrible speed, and an awful typing doesn't really pop out at me. Is there some niche I'm not aware of?

 

[Valmanway]

Anyways, I'd like to bring this up again: Why is Mega Abomasnow even ranked at all? Tons of weaknesses, terrible speed, and an awful typing doesn't really pop out at me. Is there some niche I'm not aware of?

Mega Abomasnow has the niche of being a powerful Trick Room sweeper. It's a small niche, but a niche nonetheless.

 

[AM]

The result should never fall to the amount of people who agree. The winning side is always going to be the side with the better argument, or this thread's job of educating people in what are the most viable Pokemon in the OU metagame accurately becomes impossible. You don't have to be the most well known, you just have to have a good argument fir your post to count. The side for Ttar for A easily had the better argument. Did you READ CBB's post?

With all due respect CBB's post made sense but to the point where its a deciding factor seems silly. I mean it's fine if you're going to establish that a small pool of players that won some tour matches will be considered more valid, but if that's the case don't waste our time by saying our opinions are valid when people are going to just talk about it in private and say "Oh yeah we read your opinion, it was cool and all but I'm going to go with the opinions of my tour people that we talked with privately."

We already established that Victory Road was designed to isolate the totally shitty players from the experienced ones but just cause we aren't part of some elite doesn't necessarily mean are opinions aren't valid. Not trying to rant but might as well establish that in the op that tour players will hold more weight in terms of the ranking goes so we don't waste our time advocating stuff to be ranked or unranked.

 

[Numera]

With all due respect CBB's post made sense but to the point where its a deciding factor seems silly. I mean it's fine if you're going to establish that a small pool of players that won some tour matches will be considered more valid, but if that's the case don't waste our time by saying our opinions are valid when people are going to just talk about it in private and say "Oh yeah we read your opinion, it was cool and all but I'm going to go with the opinions of my tour people that we talked with privately."

We already established that Victory Road was designed to isolate the totally shitty players from the experienced ones but just cause we aren't part of some elite doesn't necessarily mean are opinions aren't valid. Not trying to rant but might as well establish that in the op that tour players will hold more weight in terms of the ranking goes so we don't waste our time advocating stuff to be ranked or unranked.

All the people who thought Ttar should be A+ had their opinion heard. I am sure if it. However, the other side had better arguments thus Ttar stayed in A. Is it really hard to understand that a better argument is going to win over amount of people arguing the same thing? Your opinion is still valid, bit if you and the rest of your side can't argue as well as the other side, your side loses. Simple, right?

 

[Karxrida]

All the people who thought Ttar should be A+ had their opinion heard. I am sure if it. However, the other side had better arguments thus Ttar stayed in A. Is it really hard to understand that a better argument is going to win over amount of people arguing the same thing? Your opinion is still valid, bit if you and the rest of your side can't argue as well as the other side, your side loses. Simple, right?

Some of us have difficulty expressing our opinions adequately. I personally have trouble translating my thoughts on these matters into long, detailed paragraphs which is why I usually make short posts and mostly react to others. I believe I would be more convincing if I could have an IRC conversation or actual talk with alexwolf or Nog but they don't have time to talk to everyone that way (let alone some nobody like me lol).

 

[AM]

All the people who thought Ttar should be A+ had their opinion heard. I am sure if it. However, the other side had better arguments thus Ttar stayed in A. Is it really hard to understand that a better argument is going to win over amount of people arguing the same thing? Your opinion is still valid, bit if you and the rest of your side can't argue as well as the other side, your side loses. Simple, right?

This would be ok if this wasn't a re-occuring thing in this thread. It's kind of annoying that some of us that bother to post ranks and give a generally solid opinion on it are sniped cause someone of a so called higher caliber is considered to have a much better opinion than others. Sorry that I don't post an entire essay on why something shouldn't or should be ranked all the time to prove my point. Better yet, there's no reason for me to write such a long post or go into detail cause these players are blatantly saying, not even hiding it, that are opinions are less considered than those players that are known. So what's the point of voicing an opinion when it'll end up being null and void in some of these cases such as this one. Just establish the ranks with your group of individuals that you consider at a higher level and call it a day. The new players will get the idea anyways.

 

[alexwolf]

Let's clear up some things:

1. Everyone's opinion matters, as long as it's based on solid reasoning
2. Smogon is not a democracy
3. You don't have to be a tour player to make good arguments or be a good battler
4. Quality > Quantity, so the side with the most supporters won't always win
5. Everyone can send me a PM or meet me on irc to talk about the rankings

Now, let's get back on track please.

 

[Gloating]

Thanks for clearing things up man.

 

[Celticpride]

I nominate Azelf to B- from C+. Versatile little thing, it is a very good dedicated lead. Knock Off, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Taunt, Dual Screens, Magic Coat and a wide variety of standard attacking moves give it a lot of utility. It can fit most offensive teams is some capacity because you can adjust it to the needs of the team. Knock Off is self-explanatory, U-Turn can generate the almighty momentum, Hazards and Taunt on a fast lead is great, and dual screens can pave the way for a set-up sweeper. Alternately, it can also run a decent Nasty Plot set off 125 special attack and 115 speed. I've bluffed the NP set as a lead before, and it's mad easy to grab a boost against unsuspecting opposing leads. Interesting side-note, Azelf has access to Energy Ball. In a tier swimming with Quagsires and Rotom-Ws, a strong 125 special attack Energy Ball is nothing if not an interesting tool.

 

[Stef0w]

I was going to make an argument about disminished returns on stall-breakers, but I forgot my point while writing (I focus like a chocolade bunny when writing on a phone).

Anyways, lando T for A+.

I cant stand playing against him, and I dont know why. No recovery, meh speedtier, arguble compitition from lando I, honestly pretty meh defenses (who mainly rely on intimidate), and Gliscor having an immunity to status, better speed tier, and not activating defiant also sucks.

Id rather have gliscor in A+ tbh, but A good replay could certainly change my mind (being openminded is great, I should do it more often).

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

k so seeing as we have to write essays in order for our posts to matter

zard x can stay in s. its a great versatile mon, and the DD set is just mediocre in todays metagame. it can't sweep a good team. but we shouldn't be ranking it on its mediocre DD set, we should be ranking it on its other sets. what are these sets, you ask? 3 attacks+roost, sd+tw, and will-o-wisp. these all have places on teams, for example, seeing as normal gyara is becoming a thing, 3 atks+roost beats beats thundy, which is a premier stop to it, and seeing as most people make plays banking on the fact that its using the mediocre DD set allows it to beat scarfers that switch in, such as garchomp and it wears down lando-t so it can't switch in. but enough talk on what its good with, we should move on to other things. sd+tw is the superior sweeping set, seeing as it is powerful and has the typing+bulk to set up. it only needs to set up once to break an entire team to pieces. tailwind rips through offense, and sd breaks through slower, bulkier teams. tailwind alleviates the issue of being fucked by scarfers, as it now outspeeds garchomp, and it also beats sand offense. tailwind+swords dance is far superior to dragon dance, and should be the sweeping set if we are going to be ranking it on its sweeping ability. but its not the sweeping ability that makes it so good, its the other qualities it has in tandem with sweeping that make it a threat. need a good wall breaker that can provide defensive synergy? zard x is your guy. need a sweeper that can crush offense and balance? zard x is your guy. need a good wall that can spread burns and still maintain workable offensive presence? zard x is your guy. like all it needs is a way to remove hazards, thats all the support it needs, and hazard removal is such an essential part of the metagame that i can't build a team that doesnt have hazard removal. dragon dance is a mediocre set in this meta, and we shouldn't be taking it into account when we are ranking zard x. also, gonna nom a superior dragon dancer to S:


mega gyarados is a monster. it has great typing in both forms, absurd bulk for an offensive mon(for reference, its 95/109/130 bulk+intimidate is better than umbreon's 95/110/130 bulk) and the fact that its a bulky water(if we're going by the definition of being a water type+bulky)means that it provides fantastic defensive synergy to its team. in comparison to other dragon dancers, it has the bulk to set up, lack of weaknesses to priority(only one i can think of is mach punch) and a great typing, make it much more consistent. it can perform against stall, offense, balance, and everything in between with all these qualities. it can also improve its matchup against every team in exchange for coverage with substitute, which lets it beat bulky waters which otherwise beat it. did i mention mold breaker? mold breaker allows it to crap all over unaware users that would otherwise wall it, such as quagsire and clefable, and lets it beat rotom-w without stone edge because mold breaker bypasses levitate. it lets it completely demolish stall because it can't break through subs as bulky as gyara's in 1 hit, allowing it to consistently set up dragon dances vs stall until it's overwhelmed. substitute vs offense allows it to capitalize on the switches it forces with intimidate and set u dragon dances until it can sweep mercilessly. you can afford to give up ice fang because what exactly is it hitting besides latios/latias? they are already beaten because they can't OHKO it with thunderbolt(which is getting less and less common) and thus let it set up another dragon dance and then the team is dead. not saying ice fang is unviable, its just not as good as sub on gyara. there is also taunt, which unfortunately doesnt bypass scald shenanigans, but it allows it to function as a good enough stall breaker. i am sending it to S on basis of sub, which is a great move on something like gyarados. should also mention that it has a restalk DD set which can be used on stall/semistall to have a wincon/bulky water/status absorber+2 different typings and intimidate.

 

[trc]

landt shouldnt go up to a+ imo, not because it isnt good (which it is), but all of things it is designed to check in reality wear it down overtime and because it lacks any form of reliable recovery it will essentially be the absorption punching bag that pivots out or blasts off strong attacks; with a neutrality to sr and a lack of resistances to things it would typically switch into like talonflames brave bird, it lacks the ability to maintain its presence as a tank / pivot as it will get weakened to the poitn where it is just intimidate fodder and then eventually dead =[

 

[Gloating]

There's no doubt Mega Gyarados is amazing but it really only has one set which is DD unlike an S-rank like Mega Zard X which can be DD, WoW, SD, Tailwind and has reliable recovery and more powerful STAB moves. I just feel Mega Gyarados is just pretty one dimensional and A+ seems fine which is already a tough rank to get in mind you. Don't know what else to add really but yeah.

 

[Aurious]

I guess there are some defensive MGyrara Sets too, for example like Rest / Sleep Talk / Waterfall / DD which can be pretty suprising to for example mons who want to prevent it from sweeping with attacks like wow, toxic and TWave. Furthermore the set with ice fang / dd / waterfall / eq is a pretty good against many HO-Teams while the set with sub or taunt / waterfall / dd / eq can break stall teams easy and is a pretty good sweeper too. A defensive MGyara set can be good too, but i think that set gets a little bit outclassed from his normal form which dont needs a mega stone.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

i guess i can see mega gyara in a+, but i really feel that it is s because water is such a dominating type in this metagame, and mega gyara is certainly one of the best waters, if not the best water, in the metagame. it has 2 sets, such as the defensive rest talk, and it performs so consistently that its crazy.